The Fleshforge Legacy Mk. II [3.5 Campaign Setting, PEACH!]

[MammonAzrael]

You're building your own setting. Screw what they have set out, design your own servants! You don't have to be tied down to what they've made, and I know you've got the design skills!

[Admiral Squish]

You're building your own setting. Screw what they have set out, design your own servants! You don't have to be tied down to what they've made, and I know you've got the design skills!

Well, to be perfectly honest, it always seemed to me that the current good-aligned outsiders were relatively nonsensical in design. you know, weird abilities thrown on here and there, no explanation offered. Why would an avoral have a fear aura? Owl archons with eye rays that turn people to stone? What is this stuff?

But what you propose... This is blasphemy! This is madness!
Seriously, though, that is going to be a LOT of work... At least three new or redesigned outsiders/god. It might not be so bad for some of the other ones, but as it stands, I need to totally redesign at least nine different outsiders. Still... Much potential for awesome...

Also, you get bonus points for flattery.

[MammonAzrael]

Haha...I'll be sure to note that on Dethir's character sheet.

But seriously, I don't think it'd be quite as much work as it first appears. A lot of the "good" outsider's abilities are pretty solid, they're just mixed and matched very oddly and without too much focus.

First, I think you should work on the deities some more, get their styles more defined. Once that is done, you can design outsiders that reflect those styles.

Right now I'm getting:

• A very martial, up-front and melee feel from the LG deity, wielding his hammer and personally ensuring that things occur as they "should." I see his followers with that same mentality, devastatingly efficient melee brutes that are highly resistant and can close distances fast. I'm actually not feeling traditional angels here, as the odd combination of human + bird wings doesn't feel right for LG...something that looked more like the 4E angels could work though. Best place for Aura of Menace.
• A heal-bot/Pelor feel from the NG deity, the main caster of the good deities. A lot of debilitating and restraining and banishing magic.
• A gish for the CG deity, so she can shift between range and melee, offense and defense, and everything else.

[Admiral Squish]

Haha...I'll be sure to note that on Dethir's character sheet.

But seriously, I don't think it'd be quite as much work as it first appears. A lot of the "good" outsider's abilities are pretty solid, they're just mixed and matched very oddly and without too much focus.

First, I think you should work on the deities some more, get their styles more defined. Once that is done, you can design outsiders that reflect those styles.

Right now I'm getting:

• A very martial, up-front and melee feel from the LG deity, wielding his hammer and personally ensuring that things occur as they "should." I see his followers with that same mentality, devastatingly efficient melee brutes that are highly resistant and can close distances fast. I'm actually not feeling traditional angels here, as the odd combination of human + bird wings doesn't feel right for LG...something that looked more like the 4E angels could work though. Best place for Aura of Menace.
• A heal-bot/Pelor feel from the NG deity, the main caster of the good deities. A lot of debilitating and restraining and banishing magic.
• A gish for the CG deity, so she can shift between range and melee, offense and defense, and everything else.

Oh, come on, I give you the BEST Sparta setup in history and you leave me hangin? Not cool, bro. Bonus points revoked.



YEah, deities first. Servants later. These guys and the hivelings are going to be taking turns for my attentions until at least one of them is done, then I'll probably get started on new outsiders. After that, I'm thinking more detailed info on each nation, with actual cities and such.

But yeah, those are pretty accurate descriptions. Check out the new thread, I'll be going into more detail soon.

[MammonAzrael]

Curses! I totally glazed over that. Clearly, the evening is getting late for my faculties are impeded.

Seriously though...


This. Is. TRYOR! Remaking things in the image that we see fit is what it's all about!

Will be posting in the god thread later (tonight or tomorrow sometime).

[Admiral Squish]

Curses! I totally glazed over that. Clearly, the evening is getting late for my faculties are impeded.

Seriously though...


This. Is. TRYOR! Remaking things in the image that we see fit is what it's all about!

Will be posting in the god thread later (tonight or tomorrow sometime).

Tsk. I even call you on it and you miss your chance for the chest-boot. Points still denied. *shakes head*

But yeah, I'll probably end up making/redesigning outsiders for them. There aren't nearly enough good outsiders, anyway.

[Admiral Squish]

Okay, so, while I can't offer a proper D&D game set in Tryor just yet, I CAN link you to a forum created by one of my friends. The idea is, if the rules aren't done, we can play without them. The forum is based around free-form RP in the world of Tryor. I'm intending to take interesting ideas that show up on that forum and incorporate them into the more detailed world info.

So, anyways, if you're interested, swing by: The Fleshforge Legacy Roleplay

[Super_Dave]

Have you considered creating a magical device or chamber which allows any two species (even those with incompatible anatomies) to produce offspring? It could be, for example, the altar in a shrine used/built by the Shapers, or an experimental artifact buried deep in some Shaper scientist's lab.

As an analogue to the above artifact, what about a device which regularly spits out entirely new organisms, by splicing and synthesizing whatever organic matter you feed into it? Sort of like a randomized dungeon-generator, but with genes instead of rooms and monsters.

[Omeganaut]

I like what you have done so far, the biggest problem I worry about is your habit of creating a nation/community (of sorts) for almost every race you have made so far, and you say you still have draconic races to go. I worry that your world may get bogged down in race vs. race conflict, meaning any PC group with many races could have problems agreeing with the source material. I would be in favor of some material that could pull low level parties with diverse membership without them facing tough enemies or good enemies. Maybe if you elaborated on those that still worship the Shapers, or if the illithids had mind-controlled spies/troops it could work. I don't really see that touched on more than "it exsists" in your description. However, I am a fan of the history, and I think its one of the best ways I've seen to explain DnD diversity without resorting to it coming from multiple planes.

[Admiral Squish]

Hey all, sorry for the long silence. I'm still trying to get back into a creative mood. It's been a weird month.

Have you considered creating a magical device or chamber which allows any two species (even those with incompatible anatomies) to produce offspring? It could be, for example, the altar in a shrine used/built by the Shapers, or an experimental artifact buried deep in some Shaper scientist's lab.

As an analogue to the above artifact, what about a device which regularly spits out entirely new organisms, by splicing and synthesizing whatever organic matter you feed into it? Sort of like a randomized dungeon-generator, but with genes instead of rooms and monsters.

Mein Gott, the sheer number of combinations involved... it boggles the mind! There would be like no way to cover all of my bases without creating some kind of ridiculously complex series of tables.

And a similar problem with the second idea. just too many variables. And I wouldn't feel right just telling DMs to shoot from the hip in regards to it.

I like what you have done so far, the biggest problem I worry about is your habit of creating a nation/community (of sorts) for almost every race you have made so far, and you say you still have draconic races to go. I worry that your world may get bogged down in race vs. race conflict, meaning any PC group with many races could have problems agreeing with the source material. I would be in favor of some material that could pull low level parties with diverse membership without them facing tough enemies or good enemies. Maybe if you elaborated on those that still worship the Shapers, or if the illithids had mind-controlled spies/troops it could work. I don't really see that touched on more than "it exsists" in your description. However, I am a fan of the history, and I think its one of the best ways I've seen to explain DnD diversity without resorting to it coming from multiple planes.

A bunch of concerns, I see, all bundled into a single post. I'll try to reply to each of them.

One of the reasons that all these different races are getting their own cultures is because that realistically, that is what would happen. I mean, just look at human cultures. Even miniscule physical differences sharply divide populations. When you get to the point where you have some people who are actually part lizard, it seems like it would be unreasonable for them to just be part of some singular homogenous culture. Yes, I suspect there will be significant race-v-race conflict. I'm practically counting on it since most traditional 'monster' races are being made into playable races. A side-effect of my attempt to avoid the traditional 'generic badguy race' thing.

I am definitely glad you like they way I handled the base explanation.


In other news: I was considering making a plant race of some sort, or possibly several. Possibly to go in the swamp, or in that giant tree in the middle of the forest. I'm probably going to make it/them anyways, I just want to hear if people think a sentient plant race would work well in this setting, or if they should be a separate creation.

[Lord_Gareth]

I actually have to disagree Squish, though I think PMs might be the place to really get into it if we want to; I find the idea of 'racial cultures' to be wholly unrealistic.

[Sydonai]

Think of it as Racial Pride then.

[Mayhem]

In other news: I was considering making a plant race of some sort, or possibly several. Possibly to go in the swamp, or in that giant tree in the middle of the forest. I'm probably going to make it/them anyways, I just want to hear if people think a sentient plant race would work well in this setting, or if they should be a separate creation.

Before or after godzillians?

[Admiral Squish]

I actually have to disagree Squish, though I think PMs might be the place to really get into it if we want to; I find the idea of 'racial cultures' to be wholly unrealistic.

I think it should probably be discussed here. Give everyone a chance to weigh in. Otherwise, I'll probably have the exact same argument multiple times.

Think of it as Racial Pride then.

Sorta. Not quite, but it's similar.

Before or after godzillians?

Not sure. I'm thinking godzillians would be an updated version of the 'traditional' lizardfolk. Either in the swamp, or in Arcas.

Now, moving on, It's come to my attention that people seem to think that I'm making too many races. I this is silly. However, this makes me think that perhaps I need to figure out a way to categorize them in such a way that they don't look so overwhelming. Possibly into base/common races and then more exotic/rare races. Overall, one of the things I want to do is convert all the 'monstrous' humanoids into playable races.

Another thing: Goblinoids. Should they be included?

[Halae]

I honestly don't think there's room for goblinoids, unless you intend them as some sort of sewer worker race. We've already got heavy lifting and a whole shwack of other things. I'm just not sure where they'd fit in.

[Mayhem]

Not sure. I'm thinking godzillians would be an updated version of the 'traditional' lizardfolk. Either in the swamp, or in Arcas.

I was teasing .

As for goblinoids, I agree that there isn't a whole of room for them. But maybe they're some kind of degenerate gnomes or something? Make them creepy, not neccessarily evil though. Sewer worker or something sounds interesting too.

[Admiral Squish]

Hmmm... what if they were industrial workers from Myralis? The only real 'inhabitants' of the city so far are the chimerans, the mind flayers, and the shapers. Goblins, hobgobs, and bugbears would make pretty decent workers. Breed quickly, smart enough to do complex tasks, tough enough to survive harsh conditions, and dexterous enough for detail work.

[Halae]

That actually makes a lot of sense. Goblins could have been made to squeeze into tight spaces for maintenance where others can't go, Hobgoblins could be used as a sort of construction crew - strong and disciplined enough to work together, and intelligent enough to do maintenance where goblins aren't needed

[Lord_Gareth]

I think it should probably be discussed here. Give everyone a chance to weigh in. Otherwise, I'll probably have the exact same argument multiple times.

Well, allow me to add a caveat: I can swing some racial societies. Patron deity is a racist jerk? Racial society. Only sapient race underwater? Racial society. Cut off from the rest of the world by nigh-impassable geological issues? Racial society.

In the absence of these things, though, trade and inter-mingling just plain makes sense, especially amongst the more humanoid races. I mean, races with crippling flaws (like orc/drow light sensitivity) are naturally gonna be at least a /little/ standoffish, but your setting has races that are literally designed for certain roles, which makes trading those roles to other races make even more sense.

Going further, culture is independant of race, especially in a city. Someone from Vegas is vastly different from someone that hails from Sacramento or New York or Paris. Nations hold forth ideologies and ideals that typically transcend the idea of race, further encouraging mixtures.

Honestly, especially with regards to humanoids, I haven't found a single justification for racial societies besides the fact that Tolkein did it first. I mean, I can imagine your reptilians all forming one nation, and then your Hivelings another (species separation), and then your humanoids parcel the world into more nation-states....

[Omeganaut]

Hobgoblins wouldn't fit as sewer workers. I personally don't think you need all of the goblinoids. However, if you do want all of them, the Hobgoblins may be mobile armies for hire.

[Super_Dave]

Does Tryor have a soundtrack? What music would you recommend to DMs who want to get their players in the mood? Certain bands, genres, or movie soundtracks? Which songs might best represent certain regions?

Do the Dwarves listen to Celtic rock, or are they more into heavy metal? Do the Papago listen to reggae? Dubstep? Disco? What would an Orcish tribal ceremony sound like, and what would differentiate that sound from a Goliath ceremony of a similar nature?

[Admiral Squish]

That actually makes a lot of sense. Goblins could have been made to squeeze into tight spaces for maintenance where others can't go, Hobgoblins could be used as a sort of construction crew - strong and disciplined enough to work together, and intelligent enough to do maintenance where goblins aren't needed

That was generally the line of though I was having. Still, I could just as easily have the nation have been populated almost solely by humans, which would explain the profession bonus, as well as giving the humans the added flavor of being recent refugees.

Well, allow me to add a caveat: I can swing some racial societies. Patron deity is a racist jerk? Racial society. Only sapient race underwater? Racial society. Cut off from the rest of the world by nigh-impassable geological issues? Racial society.

In the absence of these things, though, trade and inter-mingling just plain makes sense, especially amongst the more humanoid races. I mean, races with crippling flaws (like orc/drow light sensitivity) are naturally gonna be at least a /little/ standoffish, but your setting has races that are literally designed for certain roles, which makes trading those roles to other races make even more sense.

Going further, culture is independant of race, especially in a city. Someone from Vegas is vastly different from someone that hails from Sacramento or New York or Paris. Nations hold forth ideologies and ideals that typically transcend the idea of race, further encouraging mixtures.

Honestly, especially with regards to humanoids, I haven't found a single justification for racial societies besides the fact that Tolkein did it first. I mean, I can imagine your reptilians all forming one nation, and then your Hivelings another (species separation), and then your humanoids parcel the world into more nation-states....

Now, I'd resolved I was going to take my time to address this one carefully. However, apparently in squish-ese, 'carefully' means 'never'. So, I'm just going to shoot from the hip here and maybe we actually get something moving.

Yes, I would say some intermingling would be nearly inevitable, and everyone picks up some of the culture of their residential area. However, if you look at different groups, even in human cultures, you'll find that they all retain their individual cultures. This is particularly strong if the culture in question involves it's own language.

By your example, every city should have it's own, homogenous culture. But clearly this isn't true. Wander to different parts of town, and you can find different neighborhoods, where different racial groups have gathered to share their culture. Even in areas intermixed, a household will raise their children according to their own culture, not necessarily in accordance with the area's culture.

Hobgoblins wouldn't fit as sewer workers. I personally don't think you need all of the goblinoids. However, if you do want all of them, the Hobgoblins may be mobile armies for hire.

Yeah, but what would they have been in the first place? The orcs seem to work fine for that.And what of the other gobs?

Does Tryor have a soundtrack? What music would you recommend to DMs who want to get their players in the mood? Certain bands, genres, or movie soundtracks? Which songs might best represent certain regions?

Do the Dwarves listen to Celtic rock, or are they more into heavy metal? Do the Papago listen to reggae? Dubstep? Disco? What would an Orcish tribal ceremony sound like, and what would differentiate that sound from a Goliath ceremony of a similar nature?

I will admit, that is certainly something I hadn't thought about. I think, realistically, they would probably have a number of things that didn't conform to anything we would recognize as one genre or another. What do you all think? Should I work up some musical traditions for Tryor?

[Admiral Squish]

Oh, and the very first of my brother's art has arrived for the setting! Check out the Visceral Horde to see it! Currently, he's working on a number of the gods, as well as art for the forge beast, and there's a lot more on the list!

[Lord_Gareth]

Now, I'd resolved I was going to take my time to address this one carefully. However, apparently in squish-ese, 'carefully' means 'never'. So, I'm just going to shoot from the hip here and maybe we actually get something moving.

Yay!

Yes, I would say some intermingling would be nearly inevitable, and everyone picks up some of the culture of their residential area. However, if you look at different groups, even in human cultures, you'll find that they all retain their individual cultures. This is particularly strong if the culture in question involves it's own language.

In a lot of cases where a culture involves its own language it's the result of cultural transplant - a 'stranger in a strange land' kind of deal, especially in those cases where the language creates a barrier to integration. There's a Common on your world, and everyone speaks it; this is not a problem.

By your example, every city should have it's own, homogenous culture. But clearly this isn't true. Wander to different parts of town, and you can find different neighborhoods, where different racial groups have gathered to share their culture. Even in areas intermixed, a household will raise their children according to their own culture, not necessarily in accordance with the area's culture.

Thing is, those neighborhoods, while they develop and maintain their own small sub-cultures, are still part of the greater culture of the city - that is, someone from Hell's Kitchen in New York is still part of New York City, and there's certain expectations about slang, common cultural beliefs, and behaviors that are going to be nigh-universal. Same thing with Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, Houston, Paris, London, et cetera.

Getting further, you races have specific functions. They were literally engineered for these functions, and the result of this crippling overspecialization is a need for interdependence. They can't afford to clump in racial groups simply because certain essential functions cannot be filled that way - or they'd be forced either into raiding (Orcs) or what is, essentially, second-class citizenship (Halflings, who do not manufacture or farm and are thus utterly at the mercy of others for their survival). By making a unified whole, they become stronger than they would be separately, which is why societies form in the first place.

[Admiral Squish]

In a lot of cases where a culture involves its own language it's the result of cultural transplant - a 'stranger in a strange land' kind of deal, especially in those cases where the language creates a barrier to integration. There's a Common on your world, and everyone speaks it; this is not a problem.

Actually, a brief note on the languages: The reason everyone speaks common is because that's the language that the Shapers spoke. Well, spoke to the mortals. They had another language that they spoke specifically amongst each other. Some of the shorter-lived races are actually trying to avoid teaching it to their children, because it's, essentially, a slave-language.

But back to the main point. Why do you think there wouldn't be a 'stranger in a strange land' effect for these races? A baqir in the Great Gathering is going to feel just as out of place as a foreigner coming to New York for the first time. Their customs would be regarded as strange by the goliath, and the baqir would instinctively seek companionship among others like them, others who understood what the customs were there for.

Thing is, those neighborhoods, while they develop and maintain their own small sub-cultures, are still part of the greater culture of the city - that is, someone from Hell's Kitchen in New York is still part of New York City, and there's certain expectations about slang, common cultural beliefs, and behaviors that are going to be nigh-universal. Same thing with Philadelphia, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, Houston, Paris, London, et cetera.

I'd say that there are two aspects to culture. There's the local culture, the culture you learned from your neighbors, your peers, and a heritage culture, the culture your parents taught you and their parents taught them and so on. So, yes, while someone in New york will have a lot of new york aspects to their culture, they would also have aspects of their culture passed down from their parents through the generations.

Getting further, you races have specific functions. They were literally engineered for these functions, and the result of this crippling overspecialization is a need for interdependence. They can't afford to clump in racial groups simply because certain essential functions cannot be filled that way - or they'd be forced either into raiding (Orcs) or what is, essentially, second-class citizenship (Halflings, who do not manufacture or farm and are thus utterly at the mercy of others for their survival). By making a unified whole, they become stronger than they would be separately, which is why societies form in the first place.

I would argue the exact opposite. If you work in an office building, you're more likely to hang out with other guys from the office. If you work in a factory, people from the factory are more likely to make close friends. The reason is because they live the same life you do. Someone who works a few cubicles over from you is more likely to understand and commiserate when you complain about Monica from accounting. Whereas if you put in a long day on the assembly line, those working near you would get why you would have a problem with Larry the shift supervisor.

But now we extrapolate. What if Larry the shift supervisor was not only an annoying boss, but he had face-tentacles? Now, we add a whole new level of seperation. Not only is Larry different from you in position and jobs, Larry is fundamentally different from you. If Larry suddenly came up to you and started telling a story about how he got one of his tentacles stuck in a bottle at lunch, you'd probably smile and nod, because he's your boss, but you'd secretly have no idea what he was talking about. You have no frame of reference for what getting a tentacle pinched feels like. It's the same reason ladies talk about how men don't understand the pain of childbirth, and men complain women don't understand the sensation of getting kicked in the nads. You would likely work with Larry, but you probably would rather take your buddy from the line out for drinks than hang with Larry.

So, yes, while they would form societies and work together, I think the biological differences would make it so that they would generally interact very little.

[Lord_Gareth]

But Larry and Monica (and their respective co-workers) are still all part of the same larger societal group, which isn't even as big as "nation" - it's "city". You're proposing entire racial nations, which is the bit that makes no sense to me. Sure, ethnic neighborhoods or Gnoll Wards or whatever make certain amounts of sense, but at the end of the day the city is still a multi-racial conglomorate.

[Admiral Squish]

But Larry and Monica (and their respective co-workers) are still all part of the same larger societal group, which isn't even as big as "nation" - it's "city". You're proposing entire racial nations, which is the bit that makes no sense to me. Sure, ethnic neighborhoods or Gnoll Wards or whatever make certain amounts of sense, but at the end of the day the city is still a multi-racial conglomorate.

Okay, how about this. Imagine the same situation. Larry the illithid. Now imagine you and Larry only work together because your big boss/god tells you to. But then Larry comes into work one day, and declares that HE is your new boss/god, because he has killed the former boss, andhe's giving everyone a pay cut. Now, you didn't really like or dislike the former boss, he was kinda stiff, but you have an active dislike for Larry. So, you and a bunch of your buddies make a plan and take out Larry. But now, without Larry in charge, things start going wrong, and nobody knows how to fix things the way the big boss/god used to. Larry knew, but he's dead now, and tempers are flaring. The halflings in marketing are getting particularly uppity, so you and your buddies decide to show 'em whose in charge, so you go rough a couple of them up. The halflings REALLY don't like that, and suddenly your guys start dying. Panic sets in. Everyone's at everyone else's throats. Staplers flying everywhere. The dwarves in R&D have barricaded themselves in their offices and the big guys from receiving are making raids on other departments for supplies. PANDEMONIUM!

Sooner or later, someone's going to get the bright idea that they don't need all this crap. Your buddies from the line follow his example and they go make their own factory. Sure, they're not as good at marketing as the halflings were, and nowhere near as good as the dwarves when it comes to R&D. But the jobs still get done. Who needs those freaks you used to work with?

[Lord_Gareth]

Who needs those freaks you used to work with?

Your racial fluff strongly implies that everyone needs those freaks they used to work with, which is the bit that's getting to me. You make no mention of the race(s) forming aspects of culture above and beyond their (former?) functions, and while some can survive or even thrive just fine without those services (Raptorans, dwarves, ant-people), others are relegated to second-class citizens of the planet (halflings, the parrot-folk) because their race is, evidently, so lacking in essential trades that they're not even known for being bad at them - they're just a non-thought.

[Admiral Squish]

Your racial fluff strongly implies that everyone needs those freaks they used to work with, which is the bit that's getting to me. You make no mention of the race(s) forming aspects of culture above and beyond their (former?) functions, and while some can survive or even thrive just fine without those services (Raptorans, dwarves, ant-people), others are relegated to second-class citizens of the planet (halflings, the parrot-folk) because their race is, evidently, so lacking in essential trades that they're not even known for being bad at them - they're just a non-thought.

Now that's just wrong. Granted, each race has their specialty, their intended function. But that doesn't mean that they are physically incapable. A halfling isn't going to spontaneously combust the second the pick up a pitchfork. All the races are CAPABLE of performing any typical task they so desire. It's just that dwarves make the best swords. A human swordsmith would have to work harder or be more experienced to create a sword that rivals dwarven quality. I'm sure that some halflings, somewhere, have settled down and given farming a shot. Or, say, mining. Or any other trade. But the halflings are the best musicians in the world, and most often, they prefer to make their living using that skill. I think that the papago are interesting because, unlike the other races, they don't have a skill they were designed for. They were just made to be pretty. And now that their island's gone, they have to find a place in the world.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, first of all, I'd like to apologize to everyone who has been following this thread and the process of world-building with me. I'm truly sorry for my total lack of productivity. I'm not sure what has caused this long, creative drought, but I am doing my best to work through it, and with luck, I'll be able to return to creating soon!

In the meantime, I do have a small bit of news to help satiate you ravenous hunger for all things Tryor: My brother has finished another one of the drawings I've requested! This time, it's the first god I finished properly, Belenus, The Glorious One. Check it out!

Spoiler

Show

You can also see it posted to his DA account here.

This is just a first draft, though, so feel free to leave comments about what you would like to be different in the final version.