[4ed] Barbarian|Rogue hybrid. Help with optimization?

[Vallum]

This is by request by my DM for his upcoming game, he has asked me to create a Barbarian|Rogue hybrid for my pirate captain. My 'new' crew, (aka the party), is a a brash warlord dragonborn, a sword&board warfordged fighter, a spellplagued half-elf avenger, a tiefling warlock, and a healing-focused human artificer

So far, I have found two ways of this

A) going with a whirling barbarian and try to two-weapon fight, taking the whirler hybrid feat and versatile dualist and spin around with longswords or rapiers. The problem being that I found the single-target DPS of this kind of barbarian, (whirling renders), being kinda low...

B) still take the feat versatile dualist, but rather wielding two blades, two-handing a versatile one-handed heavy blade, balancing both being able to use my rogue powers, and not let my weapon-dependent powers on the barbarian-side be wasted, while being able to take the charge-happy power howling strike and other two-handed weapon abilities. But its it worth it?


it has been settled that I will be a half-orc in this game, and my DM is pushing me to also take the Sword Coast Corsair paragon path, (very fitting, and it isn't a bad PP by any means). Also, he has ruled that, because he is not allowing primal power source for this group, that by giving up my primal power source of my barbarian, I can now take any fighter feats, (not many, but there we go), but I cant take feats that are prereq 'primal', (but can still take barbarian feats).
the group also rolls stats, and I rolled quite well



So, what can GITP do? I'd love to see your guy's knack for 4ed optimization. I've looked at the handbooks for both rogue and barbarian... But the barbarian handbook leads to little on optimizing whirlers, (a very 'two-handed weapons or suck' mentality).
Also, here's my character (modeled after option B, not much for a 1st level character, but there it is)


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Bartimaeus Ithlandair, level 1
Half-Orc, Barbarian|Rogue
Background: Half-Orc - Stormtouched (+2 to Nature)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 20, Con 17, Dex 20, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 17, Dex 18, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 16.


AC: 17 Fort: 16 Reflex: 16 Will: 13
HP: 30 Surges: 10 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Perception +6, Thievery +10, Stealth +10, Acrobatics +10, Nature +8

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff +3, Diplomacy +3, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +5, Heal +1, History +1, Insight +1, Intimidate +5, Religion +1, Streetwise +3, Athletics +5

FEATS
Level 1: Versatile Duelist

POWERS
Hybrid at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Hybrid at-will 1: Howling Strike
Hybrid encounter 1: Sly Lunge
Hybrid daily 1: Swift Panther Rage

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Leather Armor, Bastard sword
====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

[Zaq]

Before you go any farther, ask yourself a couple of questions.

-What, specifically, do I hope to get out of Barbarian?
-What, specifically, do I hope to get out of Rogue?
-What, specifically, will I be able to do as a Barbarian|Rogue that I cannot do as simply one or the other?
-What am I giving up by going hybrid, and how do I plan to compensate for doing so?

On the face of it, I see very little reason to go Barb|Rogue. This isn't to say that it's not possible; I'm just saying that it's not obvious what you're trying to do with it. So, what exactly do you want your character to accomplish?

[MeeposFire]

I am not really a fan about combining two strikers in a hybrid since it in very difficult to get both striker features to work.

I think you need to emphasize rogue more and barbarian less since you want to be sneak attacking all the time.

Pressing strike is a fantastic at will that gives you utility for movement and it does not require a two handed weapon. Keep Riposte Strike and spend your time trying to get its second attack off especially since sneak attack is once a turn not a round.

Barbarian hybrid agility is a great choice your your hybrid feat as it will make you harder to hit (hide armor and a bonus to AC/reflex).

Pick up off turn or minor action attacks so you can try to get sneak attack even when you are using a barbarian power, such as taking the low slash rogue power at level 3 (it is a minor action so you could use it in a round that you make use of the barbarian storm of blades power). Both classes have a few of these.

Use a rapier it is a martial weapon and is free from needing feats.

By the way versatile duelist makes you able to use a bastard sword with SA but it does not give you proficiency with a bastard sword so you would need to be level 2 to be effective with your build.

[Vallum]

Before you go any farther, ask yourself a couple of questions.

-What, specifically, do I hope to get out of Barbarian?
-What, specifically, do I hope to get out of Rogue?
-What, specifically, will I be able to do as a Barbarian|Rogue that I cannot do as simply one or the other?
-What am I giving up by going hybrid, and how do I plan to compensate for doing so?

On the face of it, I see very little reason to go Barb|Rogue. This isn't to say that it's not possible; I'm just saying that it's not obvious what you're trying to do with it. So, what exactly do you want your character to accomplish?

Roleplaying reasons.
A swashbuckling brute who is able to channel his rage into a means that manifests into changing his physical body to be stronger, faster, better. The rogue part was to represent not only his swashbuckling abilities, but also his hard-knocks childhood as a burglar. The barbarian to represent his Orc heritage that he utilizes to the utmost degree.

Rogue was to help me with skills, and I was hoping that I could somehow pull some power out of this, (the DM said we needed a skill monkey). Originally, I was going straight Barbarian.
Unfortunately, my DM has declared that fullblades are for high ranking dragonborn in dragonborn society, and very few others outside of dragonborn society are allowed to have such a weapon. (so, aka, he's saying no, I'm not allowed not just a fullblade, but any of the two-handed superior weapons).
But I can two-hand a bastard sword, get the versatile bonus, and not have to spend a feat to wield it two-handed.

Now I'm just trying to pull power out of this combo, if I can. If not, I might suck up spending a multiclass feat to settle the flavor.

I am not really a fan about combining two strikers in a hybrid since it in very difficult to get both striker features to work.

I think you need to emphasize rogue more and barbarian less since you want to be sneak attacking all the time.

Pressing strike is a fantastic at will that gives you utility for movement and it does not require a two handed weapon. Keep Riposte Strike and spend your time trying to get its second attack off especially since sneak attack is once a turn not a round.

Barbarian hybrid agility is a great choice your your hybrid feat as it will make you harder to hit (hide armor and a bonus to AC/reflex).

Pick up off turn or minor action attacks so you can try to get sneak attack even when you are using a barbarian power, such as taking the low slash rogue power at level 3 (it is a minor action so you could use it in a round that you make use of the barbarian storm of blades power). Both classes have a few of these.

Use a rapier it is a martial weapon and is free from needing feats.

By the way versatile duelist makes you able to use a bastard sword with SA but it does not give you proficiency with a bastard sword so you would need to be level 2 to be effective with your build.

hm, good notes, totally spaced over pressing strike, that'll be awesome to get me my sneak attack.
So should I go with two-handing the bastard sword, (because my DM allows me to two-hand w/o a proficiency feat), or go with longswords/rapier and dual-wield?

[Zaq]

Roleplaying reasons.
A swashbuckling brute who is able to channel his rage into a means that manifests into changing his physical body to be stronger, faster, better. The rogue part was to represent not only his swashbuckling abilities, but also his hard-knocks childhood as a burglar. The barbarian to represent his Orc heritage that he utilizes to the utmost degree.

Rogue was to help me with skills, and I was hoping that I could somehow pull some power out of this, (the DM said we needed a skill monkey). Originally, I was going straight Barbarian.

None of what you said really needs the rogue class. You'd be better off as a pure barbarian. The old-fashioned skillmonkey doesn't really exist in 4e (you can, with some work, make a character who's good at most skills, but it's not really worth it most of the time), and you should be fine with just judicious use of your background (to get that one skill you really want), your multiclass feat, and (if you're that desperate) Skill Training. But yeah, a barbarian can be just as much of a hard-knocks swashbuckling burglar as a rogue can. I'd say drop rogue and be done with it.

Alternatively, if you really want to, go straight rogue (with a STR secondary, ideally), multiclass barbarian (I know that at least one of the barb MC feats gives you a rage-like effect once per day, does it not?), and maybe take a power swap or two for a proper rage daily. Done.

Hybrids have plenty of uses, but if you just want to have two specific classes written on your sheet, chances are good that you could do it better without going hybrid. You have to have a specific goal in mind to make hybrids worthwhile.

[MeeposFire]

Roleplaying reasons.
A swashbuckling brute who is able to channel his rage into a means that manifests into changing his physical body to be stronger, faster, better. The rogue part was to represent not only his swashbuckling abilities, but also his hard-knocks childhood as a burglar. The barbarian to represent his Orc heritage that he utilizes to the utmost degree.

Rogue was to help me with skills, and I was hoping that I could somehow pull some power out of this, (the DM said we needed a skill monkey). Originally, I was going straight Barbarian.
Unfortunately, my DM has declared that fullblades are for high ranking dragonborn in dragonborn society, and very few others outside of dragonborn society are allowed to have such a weapon. (so, aka, he's saying no, I'm not allowed not just a fullblade, but any of the two-handed superior weapons).
But I can two-hand a bastard sword, get the versatile bonus, and not have to spend a feat to wield it two-handed.

Now I'm just trying to pull power out of this combo, if I can. If not, I might suck up spending a multiclass feat to settle the flavor.



hm, good notes, totally spaced over pressing strike, that'll be awesome to get me my sneak attack.
So should I go with two-handing the bastard sword, (because my DM allows me to two-hand w/o a proficiency feat), or go with longswords/rapier and dual-wield?

Pressing strike is easy to miss since every other barbarian at will in PHB2 requires two hands.

I would go rapier. It deals almost as much damage but does not require a feat to use with your rogue powers. Light blades have much better feat support as well such as getting bonus to hit and damage with combat advantage and hitting reflex with basic attacks.

You could go two weapon fighting (dagger in the off hand allows you to have a ranged attack always ready which is nice or shortsword if you want an extra point of damage per W) or you could go the buckler duelist feat route. One feat for light shield (make it a spiked shield and add rhythm blade enhancement to it and you have a +2 AC/ref bonus) and pick up the buckler duelist feat and your shield bonus is now +2 (+3 with a cheap rhythm blade spiked shield). Offers better defense. Two weapon fighting can be nicer if you go daggermaster with its improved crits and the two weapon opening feat otherwise I personally would rather go blade and buckler.

EDIT: You could go thief build using a barbarian multiclass feat, born under a bad sign (for extra hp), and the jack of all trades paragon path. You will be the ultimate skill monkey and you will be nasty at all times especially in a charge.

[Vknight]

Use a Glaive. They are heavy blades and qualify for versatile duelist. Next a barbarian feat which lets you trade 1[W] damage for ongoing untyped 5 damage. Finally a barbarian feat which makes all damage rolls brutal 1.

Thats if you don't have to be a twin weapon fighter.

[Blackfang108]

Use a Glaive. They are heavy blades and qualify for versatile duelist. Next a barbarian feat which lets you trade 1[W] damage for ongoing untyped 5 damage. Finally a barbarian feat which makes all damage rolls brutal 1.

Thats if you don't have to be a twin weapon fighter.

Glaives aren't one-handed.

Versatile Duelist specifies "One Handed Heavy Blade"

[Vallum]

EDIT: You could go thief build using a barbarian multiclass feat, born under a bad sign (for extra hp), and the jack of all trades paragon path. You will be the ultimate skill monkey and you will be nasty at all times especially in a charge.

I honestly wish that I could hybrid with thief. Would save me a headache of sorting through all this. The PE classes are so easy to optimize, especially sense we will have a warlord in the party.. But because we don't have a physical copy of PE, my DM would rather me not play a class from it, (the occasional feat or two from them is fine, but for some reason is nitpicky about not having physical copies of books for races or classes)
But I would rather be STR >= DEX, Barbarian with rogue on the side... I don't want to end up using light blades, or rather, smaller weapons then usual, (as awesome as they are.. Just not this character), so I think I'll stick with bastard sword. Good ideas though!
Also, with the stats I rolled, i can afford being a lil' MAD... I'm just trying to have it all mesh is all. I am seeing how its pretty hard to have these strikers sync with each other, (rogue DPS is dependent on hitting with rogue power for SA, barbarian needing BFS). I am considering dropping rogue entirely, and then just look for a way to satisfy the skills, (where it will only be nature, then all my pirate stuff for me and the crew will be settled with Sword Coast Corsair PP and we should be set... I actually found out the artificer has thievery, so traps wont be an issue as I was told before that it would be)

Use a Glaive. They are heavy blades and qualify for versatile duelist. Next a barbarian feat which lets you trade 1[W] damage for ongoing untyped 5 damage. Finally a barbarian feat which makes all damage rolls brutal 1.

Glaive Barbarian is pretty cool... But I'm going for sword Barbarian. I will keep glaive barbarian in mind for next time though.

[Daftendirekt]

So should I go with two-handing the bastard sword, (because my DM allows me to two-hand w/o a proficiency feat), or go with longswords/rapier and dual-wield?

You know why he's allowing you to two-hand the bastard sword without a feat? Because that's what a greatsword is. The only difference between greatsword and bastard sword in 4e is bastard sword is versatile and superior. Bastard swords are for rangers (and other beefy dual-wielders), pure and simple.

[MeeposFire]

Barbarian with skills eh? You could go with straight barbarian (which has only one less skill than hybrid rogue) and pick your favorite multiclass feat (such as rogue or ranger). This will give you 4 skills. Go rage blood with high strength and dexterity and boost them both all to nearly all the time and you will be good to go. Try to get 17 con by epic and you should be fine. you could pick up the cunning sneak multiclass feat and be oddly good at stealth (stalking charging barbarian).

[Vallum]

You know why he's allowing you to two-hand the bastard sword without a feat? Because that's what a greatsword is.

But, you know, better. So I can get the versatile property while two-handing the thing > two-handed weapon with same damage die w/o the versatile damage boost, without paying a feat.
So, really, why not... So if I'm going to two-hand something and I'm not allowed a fullblade. So yeah, bastard sword.

Barbarian with skills eh? You could go with straight barbarian (which has only one less skill than hybrid rogue) and pick your favorite multiclass feat (such as rogue or ranger). This will give you 4 skills. Go rage blood with high strength and dexterity and boost them both all to nearly all the time and you will be good to go. Try to get 17 con by epic and you should be fine. you could pick up the cunning sneak multiclass feat and be oddly good at stealth (stalking charging barbarian).

I rolled 18, 18, 17, 16, 13, 13
So I'm pretty fine with stats, if they make any difference
yeah, I'll just settle for a feat to sate my background as a burglar before become a pirate.
I will have an uncannily high AC for a barbarian now!
So, howling strike is straight forward pick, but what else should I pick for my at-will for a two-hander wielding barbarian? Pressing strike or Recuperating strike?

[Vknight]

Bloodcut Fury lets you trade 1[W] damage for 5ongoing damage to the target

[MeeposFire]

I like positioning strike since there will be a time when you will need that mobility. The THP from recuperating strike don't stack with your THP from your half orc ability or your rage blood feature.

Does your DM realize that he gave you a sword that is better than an actual greatsword?

[Daftendirekt]

But, you know, better.

By one damage. That's all versatile gives. Negligible if you ask me. IMO, bastard swords exist for A) whirling barbarians and B) melee rangers. A sword and boarder is probably just going to use a longsword or similar one-handed, and a two-hander will spend the feat, skip greatsword, and get something huge like a mordenkrad or an execution axe.

[Vknight]

This is not something to get into a argument about we are trying to give him advice to overpower his character.

Ah Bloodcut Fury is there anything you don't solve

[MeeposFire]

By one damage. That's all versatile gives. Negligible if you ask me. IMO, bastard swords exist for A) whirling barbarians and B) melee rangers. A sword and boarder is probably just going to use a longsword or similar one-handed, and a two-hander will spend the feat, skip greatsword, and get something huge like a mordenkrad or an execution axe.

In this case bastard sword is better since it has the same opportunity cost as the great sword but deals one more point damage. While it is small boost it is still better than a greatsword unless you start taking things like the power attack feat that actually require two handed weapons rather than weapons wielded in two hands. Since full blades are out due to fluff in the campaign bastard sword is the best heavy blade for damage especially for no feat.

[Daftendirekt]

You are correct

Bloodcut Fury lets you trade 1[W] damage for 5ongoing damage to the target

IMO, ongoing damage isn't worth it a lot of time, especially for trade-offs like that, unless you have save debuffing, which is unlikely on a rogue. One of the few I think is worth it is Bloodbath (rogue 5 daily), which deals ongoing equal to however much SA damage you did with the attack. That can be HUGE if you crit or roll well, and even one round of it (monster saves first chance) would most likely be more than [W] damage.

[Vallum]

I like positioning strike since there will be a time when you will need that mobility. The THP from recuperating strike don't stack with your THP from your half orc ability or your rage blood feature.

Does your DM realize that he gave you a sword that is better than an actual greatsword?

Yes, he does
He says that greatswords are more ancient models of weapons, and leaves martial chracters to be proficient with bastard swords, as they are modern day interpretations of these weapons.
I know, I don't get it ether, but I'm just rolling with the punches

By one damage. That's all versatile gives. Negligible if you ask me. IMO, bastard swords exist for A) whirling barbarians and B) melee rangers. A sword and boarder is probably just going to use a longsword or similar one-handed, and a two-hander will spend the feat, skip greatsword, and get something huge like a mordenkrad or an execution axe.

...If I could, I would. Like I mentioned a few posts up, I can't. I wish I could get any of the superior two-handed weapons, but I can't.
This is the next best thing.

[MeeposFire]

You are correct



IMO, ongoing damage isn't worth it a lot of time, especially for trade-offs like that, unless you have save debuffing, which is unlikely on a rogue. One of the few I think is worth it is Bloodbath (rogue 5 daily), which deals ongoing equal to however much SA damage you did with the attack. That can be HUGE if you crit or roll well, and even one round of it (monster saves first chance) would most likely be more than [W] damage.

Ongoing 5 is totally not worth it in my opinion. Average damage for 1 W for a bastard sword is 5.5 damage with a max of 10. Ongoing damage has a better chance at saving than not without save penalties. For a feat a conditional chance of extra damage seems weak to me. Better to take various damage booster feats like weapon focus or the like.

[Vknight]

Except you forget the chance of failing always exists and it adds a certain modifier well raging.

[Daftendirekt]

Except you forget the chance of failing always exists and it adds a certain modifier well raging.

Yes, but without any debuffing boosts, they have a 50% chance to save. Not worth it. As Meepo pointed out, 5 ongoing compared to average Bastard Sword damage just doesn't win out. So, if you can find something that gives MARTIAL powers a debuff bonus, awesome, but AFAIK, only arcane powers have that -- in a feat, and I think an implement or two.

[MeeposFire]

Deadly rage would probably be better in more cases since it is bonus damage during a rage that hits every time (ongoing does not stack and spreading attacks out is not a barbarian priority) with no loss of damage dice.

[tcrudisi]

Yes, but without any debuffing boosts, they have a 50% chance to save. Not worth it. As Meepo pointed out, 5 ongoing compared to average Bastard Sword damage just doesn't win out. So, if you can find something that gives MARTIAL powers a debuff bonus, awesome, but AFAIK, only arcane powers have that -- in a feat, and I think an implement or two.

55% chance to save, not 50%.

Yes, there are ways to decrease the chances that a monster saves, even with martial powers. A quick example: Amulet of Elegy.

Finally, even without using ways to make your ongoing damage harder to shrug off, 5 points of ongoing damage is worth a little more than 7 points of damage. However, even giving up 1d10 (average almost 6 points of damage, including crits), the trade-off really isn't worth it. Sure, it's 1 more point of damage, but that's 1 more point of damage that occurs later. If you deal 15 damage + ongoing 5 to a target and you would have done 18 to the target, the 18 is better if the monster dies with 16, 17, or 18 damage. Then your allies don't waste an attack (and thus their damage) killing something that would have already been dead anyway. Obviously, this example is made up, but it shows how back-loaded ongoing damage is weaker than front-loaded damage.

Now, to the OP: by what you described, I would do a straight Barbarian and multi-class Rogue. Barbarians can take Athletics and Acrobatics anyway, which gives you the swashbuckler feel (DMG page 42). Need more? Reflavor some powers. By multiclassing Rogue, you can take either Thievery or Stealth, then use a Skill Training to pick up the other. Barbarians should make Dex secondary anyway. I'd use those 18's on Str and Dex, I'd make the 17 Cha or Wis (depending on what kind of Barbarian you are), and the 16 Con. The two 13's should be Int and Cha/Wis. Then, with your advancements, put them into Str & Dex. That'll keep your AC high and keep up your swashbucklery-ness.

An example of a good Barbarian power that can be reflavored is Pressing Strike. You can describe the power as you cartwheeling over or sliding under the enemy and stabbing him from behind, above, or below him.

[Vknight]

No one sees the power of ongoing damage oh well it still has uses and is a favorite feat of mine.

Also helps that is increases to 10ongoing Lvl 11, 15ongoing Lvl21 which proves its a worth while trade off because you can still apply other things that are weapon bonuses. High Crit to name one thing

[MeeposFire]

No one sees the power of ongoing damage oh well it still has uses and is a favorite feat of mine.

Also helps that is increases to 10ongoing Lvl 11, 15ongoing Lvl21 which proves its a worth while trade off because you can still apply other things that are weapon bonuses. High Crit to name one thing

Its not about disliking ongoing damage it is just this feat is just so low on the scale of usefulness.

Just looked up the full feat text and you need to trade in a W for every 5 points of ongoing you give. Further it only works on a rage attack itself and does not work on a miss.

So you spend a feat so you can lower your damage an average of 5.5 points per 5 ongoing (since it only works on a hit we can directly compare). If the target was a weak target then it would probably be better to just hit it harder and eliminate it (or you do not really need the ongoing damage) or if the target is really powerful then its chances of saving are really high. Add in the back loaded damage and it comes out behind.

If we took that extra damage while raging feat instead of this feat we would add +3 damage per hit.

So ongoing 15 versus 8.5x3=25.5 more damage from deadly rage and original rage damage. In order for you to get ahead you would need the creature to fail its save (otherwise you spent a feat to lower your damage) and I would need to not hit with any power off my turn. Heck once you start using the barbarian multi attack powers you really come out ahead since that is +3 damage per hit.

Heck your high crit is worth less with your feat since you are actually maximizing less Ws and ongoing gets no bonus on a crit and if you kill the target with your granted attack from your class feature then the ongoing was wasted completely.

Now if the feat scaled without requiring you having to give up even more damage, did not require a hit, if there were more rage powers with at will attacks that did W damage, or did not make you give up damage then it might be worth it.

Sorry to rain on your feat's parade.

[Kurald Galain]

This is by request by my DM for his upcoming game, he has asked me to create a Barbarian|Rogue hybrid for my pirate captain.

Ask him to allow a multiclass Rogue/Barbarian instead.

Seriously. Hybrids are very easy to screw up and make ineffective, and barbarian|rogue is just not a good match, for starters because barbarians favor running into combat screaming with a huge twohander, whereas rogues favor skulking around in the shadows wielding a teensy little dagger.

A swashbuckling brute who is able to channel his rage into a means that manifests into changing his physical body to be stronger, faster, better. The rogue part was to represent not only his swashbuckling abilities, but also his hard-knocks childhood as a burglar. The barbarian to represent his Orc heritage that he utilizes to the utmost degree.

Okay, go Brutal Scoundrel rogue and you'll do all of that. Take the Barbarian multiclass feat for an encounter-long damage boost. It's much easier and more effective than trying to get this particular hybrid to work.

hm, good notes, totally spaced over pressing strike, that'll be awesome to get me my sneak attack.

Since you can't sneak attack on a barbarian power - the rogue power Deft Strike or Acrobatic Strike gives you the same stunt with SA dice. Also, a pure rogue is a better skillmonkey than a hybrid.

[Vknight]

Its not about disliking ongoing damage it is just this feat is just so low on the scale of usefulness.
Sorry to rain on your feat's parade.

I completly missed the part about it lowering for every 1[W], but that makes is useless

I will now homebrew it costs 1[W] period.
Just like Power Attack is a -2penalty from heroic to epic

[MeeposFire]

That certainly would make it a bit more competitive.

[Daftendirekt]

Power Attack is SO not worth it in 4e. There are so many more ways of getting bonus damage than getting bonus to-hit that LOSING to-hit to get more damage SUCKS.

So, please, if you're considering that feat, don't.