[BitP:R] BleachITP Reborn OOC Thread 15: Eye of the Tiger... Hollow

[Nicklance]

Thinking on the current arc, is it just me or is Aya, Shishiou and Takeshi all small and tiny like adolescent children?

[Innis Cabal]

Seems so, Takeshi is sorta the...Hitsugaya of this world. Small and very young looking. Though the similarities end there fairly sharply

[Nicklance]

Seems so, Takeshi is sorta the...Hitsugaya of this world. Small and very young looking. Though the similarities end there fairly sharply

Shishiou is almost child-like and Aya is no taller than Rukia. Geez, this is like the pee-wee Shinigami arc hahaha!

[Draken]

I honestly felt that the Hell from last game was fairly tame, boring and derivative. That may just be me though.

I sorta had to tone it down after the initial draft and never really got to do anything of that plotline. In the end, all there was to say about Hell was that Red Oni and Blue Oni were two jesters.

[Nicklance]

Will let Takeshi react to Shishiou before Aya decides on her next move.

[Innis Cabal]

Thanks, my computer has been frustrating for the last hour or so, hopefully the problems have been bloody well fixed. Bloody Norton Corporate Edition. Bloody Microsoft.

[Nicklance]

Thanks, my computer has been frustrating for the last hour or so, hopefully the problems have been bloody well fixed. Bloody Norton Corporate Edition. Bloody Microsoft.

No worries. I needed time to think anyway too.

[horngeek]

I yet live!

So, an explanation is due for my irritatingly-long absence. As mentioned earlier, I had a few emotional gut-punches. All well and good, things worked out, huzzahs and tea all around. At the end of that week, I moved to a new apartment. That's when things got fun. And by "fun" I mean "the stupid telecom company managed to fail to properly connect my internet for a week straight." I wish I was making that up.

As-is, I'll be catching up with current events over this weekend and posting again ASAP.

Incidentally, are there any happenings directly affecting any of my characters I should know about immediately?

Chiyoko fainted then had trouble breathing in front of Rex.

...matching the timing of two massive reiatsu spikes.

[Zarah]

But I have to ask what the state of Hell is first. Has anything been done with it?

Interestingly, not a single person that replied to me actually answered this question, but I think I can assume "nothing." Otherwise, I pretty much got exactly the reaction I was expecting. So, let's break it down:

I generally lean towards unattached Zanpakutou spirits being something that's not really possible. If it is, it takes something so drastic, you've only got one or two, if that. They might be mostly-independent of thought, but they're still ultimately sectioned-off pieces of the souls of Shinigami, intrinsically bound to said Shinigami. As cool as the spirit designs in the anime arc were, I prefer a world where you can't even easily manifest a spirit in the real world outside of very focused training. Otherwise, why couldn't they be manifested for a battle (outside of a Bankai or something where that's the specific power)?

I probably should have clarified that, but "rogue" was the wrong word to use. I didn't mean to imply that they just up and left because they thought it was cool. We're talking about spirits that were forcibly removed from their other halves by some means or another. There aren't very many of them, and they certainly aren't organized. They just wander around the world looking for a purpose in their existence. Essentially, they boil down to being lost and rejected spirits.


Now, as for my... Less popular idea, I'm going to answer specific comments. But first, I'm going to give you all a run-down of the faction as a whole. They don't necessarily have to have anything to do with Hell, but thematically it would make a lot more sense. Anyway:

Picture a source of immense power. What it is and where it came from, no one really knows. However, when one stumbles upon it, they are suddenly imbued with something indescribable. Whatever they were, they cease to be and now become something so much greater. They are not a Shinigami, they are not an Arrancar. They have no Zanpakutou, no Bankai, no Resurreccion. Nothing. They are simply the pinnacle of raw spiritual power. Something never before seen by anyone in the world. Now picture that there are more of them. And that they're trying to change everyone else into the same thing.

Now, I'm probably going to get a lot of flak because of this sentence, but the easiest way I can describe them is by comparing them to the Olympians from the previous game. They implant the same kind of power within others and watch as they transform and fill out their ranks. Characters are born anew in a way they never thought possible. They're meant to be a strange and alien presence that no one has ever dealt with before and eventually make themselves known as a threat not just to humans and Shinigami, but to everyone. They basically force the other characters to band together and figure out a game plan.

I personally feel like this game lacks focus. My original plan was to use Kujo as a method to get everyone gradually united and focused against a single enemy. Right now, he's dead, so it's not really a plan that's going to work anymore. Working with something like this, however, I can accomplish the same thing with a bit more of a feeling of dread behind it.

And that's the key. This faction is a little different in my eyes. It's less about making a group of big, nasty bad-guys for everyone to fight and more about building up to an emotional payoff. The faction will be born within the story, develop alongside the rest of the plot and hopefully grow into the game naturally. I have absolutely no intentions of actually making new characters for the faction. Every one of the major names will be established characters that are transformed into these "ascended beings." I won't allow new characters made specifically for the faction. The way I see it, if you all watch the faction develop from beginning to end, you'll be a lot less likely to suspect me of pulling things out of my ass rather than if I just said "by the way, these guys have been here all along."

Also, I think a lot of you are getting the wrong idea. When I say it's an endgame faction, I mean it. They might be building and developing alongside the plot for a while, but they won't become an active threat until the others have already been dealt with and until most of the characters are on the same playing field when it comes to power levels. They won't be appearing any time soon, and I certainly won't try to force them into the plot earlier than necessary. I am a patient man.

Which probably begs the question "why am I saying all this then?" If I'm going to rejoin this game, I need something to work toward. And this is the case. I'm going to be putting strings in motion as soon as I can to craft a better plot, and I'm certainly not going to put a bunch of work into a character then find out that my idea for a faction has been shot down. I'm getting the approval now so I can go ahead and start working without fear of anything being pointless.

You guys have seen me role-play, and hopefully you trust me enough to see where I'm coming from. I know this is asking a lot, but I mean every word when I say I'm only doing this to try and tell a better story for all of us.


Now, onto the questions.

And do we actually want some sort of distinct "endgame"? We saw how well that worked in the last game.

That's hardly fair to say. A lot of reasons contributed to the last game's fizzling out, not the least of which was Reborn. Yes, we probably "overplanned" things in the end, but that's not at all what I'm suggesting here. I'm trying to give everyone a clear goal to work toward. We had that all along in the last game. From beginning to end, despite everything that happened, everyone knew one thing: Toho had to die. Even in the smaller plots, things seemed to work better when everyone was on the same page and knew generally where they were headed.

Beyond that, I figure adding another whole dimension's worth of characters is really spreading the pool thing. We're currently strung thin in a lot of areas already. Do we need to spread it out further?

This is a moot point, given the information I already spoke of above. The only new characters that would exist specifically for this faction would be the very minor, one-shot characters whose only existence would be to die shortly after. Every other character in the faction would be someone who has history in the game. Nobody would be spreading themselves any thinner character-wise. They would just be changing things up a little. (And before anyone accuses me, it would all be with discretion from the players. I'm not going to steal anyone's character.)

EDIT: Another reason I'd say "no" to Hell being a faction: If they're a faction, why not introduce an "equal but opposite" faction? I mean, HM and SS balance each other, and the MW pretty much balances itself, and/or is kind of the "middle ground" for HM and SS. Hell adds another "cardinal direction" as it were, begging the question of what might lay in the opposite direction.

From my own point of view, this isn't an issue as well, because they aren't simply "cardinal directions." Soul Society and Hueco Mundo become points of a triangle, with Hell taking up the last point. Don't look at this as if Hell is really important to the concept, since it isn't. It's just a convenient place in the Bleach universe that hasn't been explored very much. Why not give a chance to flesh it out a bit rather than simply pulling something from the top of our heads? This is our game and we've already expanded on the lore quite considerably. Why should this be strictly off-limits?

+1 on all counts, really. I'm not too keen on either of those ideas, and is moving away from the direction we're trying to go with this mini-revival. We want fewer forces involved, and fewer structured faction.

My entire intention with the faction is exactly the opposite of this. While we might be introducing "more forces," they exist for the purpose of ultimately uniting the other characters and giving them some direction. Isn't that what we're all looking for?

I will agree that hell should stay simply "the place where evil mortal souls go", and maybe the place where onis come from. If I feel like bringing those two back.

And it largely will. I might be adding some small amount of explanation behind Hell's mechanics, but the faction itself will exist separately. They simply placed themselves there due to circumstance.


Now. I appreciate the honesty, and hopefully I've given you all some better insight into my ideas. Once again, I know I'm asking a lot, but I've also hopefully proven myself to be a fairly trustworthy role-player. Not that that should exempt me in any way, but you can at least know that I'm genuine when I say that this is intended to better the game as a whole. Also, to those few of you whom I PMed Kujo's plot information way back when I left, you should know how much work I put into this kind of stuff. And I can assure you that no less work has already gone into this faction.

[Hadrian_Emrys]

This...this is an understatement so fatal I think I might go hide under my bed.


Also: I don't know if Yuuta even came with Takeshi. I suppose I should ask Hadrian...

I have NO idea what the heck is going on. I have been so busy with yet another move that I have not even been reading much of the game threads since Yuuta met up with... -that one VC who's name
I forget.

Also, concern that it was a messy split aside, I'm thrilled to hear that I get you all to myself, Innis.

[Kasanip]

I probably should have clarified that, but "rogue" was the wrong word to use. I didn't mean to imply that they just up and left because they thought it was cool. We're talking about spirits that were forcibly removed from their other halves by some means or another. There aren't very many of them, and they certainly aren't organized. They just wander around the world looking for a purpose in their existence. Essentially, they boil down to being lost and rejected spirits.

When I did this idea last game it was very fun. I tried something similar with tsukumogami this game, but it has not been successful.

But how were they forcibly removed?
Because of your other idea, it is a little concern. But you can explain it I think.

Now, as for my... Less popular idea, I'm going to answer specific comments. But first, I'm going to give you all a run-down of the faction as a whole. They don't necessarily have to have anything to do with Hell, but thematically it would make a lot more sense.

If it is not necessary, I would like it not to, because I do not understand how it is a theme of Hell. I very much argue it is not, like Draken's idea was.

Picture a source of immense power. What it is and where it came from, no one really knows. However, when one stumbles upon it, they are suddenly imbued with something indescribable. Whatever they were, they cease to be and now become something so much greater. They are not a Shinigami, they are not an Arrancar. They have no Zanpakutou, no Bankai, no Resurreccion. Nothing. They are simply the pinnacle of raw spiritual power. Something never before seen by anyone in the world. Now picture that there are more of them. And that they're trying to change everyone else into the same thing.

Now, I'm probably going to get a lot of flak because of this sentence, but the easiest way I can describe them is by comparing them to the Olympians from the previous game. They implant the same kind of power within others and watch as they transform and fill out their ranks. Characters are born anew in a way they never thought possible. They're meant to be a strange and alien presence that no one has ever dealt with before and eventually make themselves known as a threat not just to humans and Shinigami, but to everyone. They basically force the other characters to band together and figure out a game plan.

I never understood Olympians in previous game. I joined in middle of such a time. But I don't like the idea. It introduces new 'power higher than everything else' and suggests it comes from Hell. It seems to ignore the purpose of Hell and what it does for Reincarnation cycle. Somehow this power turns a character into something different- "ascended beings" (Gods? I don't understand what you mean exactly, but it makes them more powerful?).

I don't understand why it must be Hell. I know you are a good roleplayer, and I think I understand your intentions, but I really very much disagree to use Hell for this idea. I also think the source of this power and what it does is not explained and needs to be, since you already have worked very hard on this idea.

[Innis Cabal]

Also, concern that it was a messy split aside, I'm thrilled to hear that I get you all to myself, Innis.

Very.....very....messy. I'll PM you.

[Frozen_Feet]

First is something a little tamer. What's the opinion on rogue Zanpakutou spirits as characters? I'm not talking about anything Muramasa-scaled, but just Zanpakutou spirits that have been separated from their masters somehow and now wander the world looking for a place to fit in.

As long as the owner is still somewhere, I don't have any objections. I personally have a character whose Zanpakuto spirit could just take off and leave if let out.

It's just that the spirits are part of the owner, and don't have a physical form outside very particular circumstances (some release abilities and Bankai training, namely.) The filler arc where there were spirits without a living owner didn't feel sensible to me. When a Shinigami dies, his Sword Spirit should die as well.

So again, if the owner is still around, sure. Maybe it could be a plot point for the character.

Second is something that's far more grand... and will also probably take some convincing. But I have to ask what the state of Hell is first. Has anything been done with it? Do you guys want anything done with it? I've been toying with the idea of a faction of "endgame villains" based out of Hell that would appear much further down the line. I've got more information on them that I plan to post, but I'd like to get an answer about Hell first.

Just forget about Hell. I'm fairly sure any idea for a villain could be implemented as a Hollow, a Shinigami or any other of the existing character types.

You see, it really doesn't make any sense for Hell to be involved, let alone be some kind of ultimate villains. To give a rough metaphor, Hollows are outlaws and Hueco Mundo is a lawless area. But Hell and Soul Society are parts of the same jurisdiction. Remember, Shinigami don't ferry souls to just Soul Society, but Hell too! They're law enforcement for both of those places.

So it doesn't make a lick of sense for Hell to have their own Shinigami-equivalent. Whoever works down there, does it just to keep sinners in until they've served their time. If penitent souls were to escape, it should be Shinigami who'd have to hunt them down, and I don't see any reason why there should be a functional difference between Hollows and demons. Especially considering that in the Bleach movie where Hell was prevalent, penitent souls retained shape and powers they had when they were Hollows.

[tgva8889]

I understand your concept, but not why it needs to use Hell, Zarah. I have nothing wrong with what you are attempting to do, merely that you are attempting to use Hell to do it. Creating an individual character that has the power to do what you are saying would not be a problem with me, so long as they weren't affiliated with Hell.

How would that character's power work with, say, Quincy? Fullbringers? Does it just replace whatever powerset they have with another one? If that's the case, I approve. Is there a way out for a character? If there is, I approve.

[Nicklance]

I can't help but notice that you guys have a section called the Fae of Britain. But nobody seems to be tapping into that faction for use as yet. Why not use them first, before moving onto Hell?

[Sucrose]

Given the immense difference in the shape this game is going to take, I feel compelled to speak up here.

Zarah, on the matter of rogue Zanpaktou spirits, I'm fine with the idea, so long as it's established as a faction that cannot grow its ranks at any reasonable speed, as whatever caused the initial dissociation should be a rather unique event. You're essentially talking about causing portions of a person's mind to become free-floating, independent constructs, after all. This isn't to say that the number of characters in such a faction should be limited, just that any new characters should be established as the result of the same event.

On the matter of a Hell faction, I have to say that I dislike the idea, even coming from you. The Olympians metaphor is apt: if there is enough interest to actually sustain the faction, then we'll soon be getting a large number of 'pinnacles of spiritual power,' which would make them undefeatable without the rest of the setting ganging up on them. This even seems to be your intent.

This supplants Hueco Mundo as the ultimate source of threat, which would trivialize the war between shinigami and hollow. Given how much of the setting is built upon this war, I think that trivializing it is a bad idea.

[Frozen_Feet]

I can't help but notice that you guys have a section called the Fae of Britain. But nobody seems to be tapping into that faction for use as yet. Why not use them first, before moving onto Hell?

It's Edge's brainchild, and effectively just different flavor on Shinigami. Edge did use them as backstory for two of his characters, both of which are still reasonably within Seireitei limits (one as an envoy, another as a wanted terrorist). Steilos also decided to use them as flavor for one of his mortal characters, but he hasn't stopped by for a while.

This supplants Hueco Mundo as the ultimate source of threat, which would trivialize the war between shinigami and hollow. Given how much of the setting is built upon this war, I think that trivializing it is a bad idea.

This is my concern as well. We already have quite a lot of different factions, all who have vested interest in matters of Shinigami and Hollows. It'd do best to focus on that conflict now, without more "ultimate bad guys" entering the scene.

Your idea might work if these assimilator beings became a secret weapon for one of the existing parties, thus threatening to tip the already-unbalanced-by-current-events scale completely. For example, a Shinigami reaching ultimate power (*cough* Aizen and Ichigo *cough*) or Arrancar reaching ways to stay in Segunda Etapa permanently would pretty much be your idea of "pinnacle of raw spiritual force, no fancy frills needed).

[Nicklance]

Using the Fae perspective, here's my two cents about the idea of detached Zanpakuto spirits.

Perhaps one of the mythological origins of a Shinigami and his Zanpakuto is the idea of a Doppleganger, or the Fetch if you will. Perhaps during reiryoku training, a Shinigami constructs a contract with his own soul, using an ancient pact-making technique that includes clause phrases (the release incantations) and tiered ability releases (like sections of a contract document). The negotiations and subjugation of one's Zanpakuto spirits is akin to tricking or legally winning over one's Fetch to get a better part of the deal. In keeping with the Fetch theme, despite looking radically different from the Shinigami themselves (perhaps a form of true appearance), the personalities of a Fetch and the Shinigami are remarkably close to our mythological representations, where the Fetch is almost aways a polar opposite of the original person.

So how does this link to rogue Zanpakuto spirits? Perhaps its because the original Shinigami possess potential far too big to simply disperse, and the Fetch that made the contract was able to linger far longer than necessary. But without the means of having a host to hold the contract, they would eventually fade away from a consistent leak of reiatsu. This gives them an impetus to bond with a host to ensure their survival, but the results of an incompatible bonding are anyone's guess at this point. This can explain how that blind Captain was able to bond with his friend's zanpakuto upon her death, perhaps there was so much compatibility that even Bankai can be attained.

This might be a reason why SWORD was able to reverse engineer certain equipment to function like a Zanpakuto (but if this didn't happen yet, could be a good plot point to forward this faction) by bargaining with independant Zanpakuto spirits.

Some of these spirits might even bond with humans.

So, is this a bad idea?

[tgva8889]

Hmm. I could see there being an "ancient forbidden ritual" that would allow one to manifest their Zanpakuto spirit in a permanent physical form. However, I imagine it was forbidden because there was a risk of the permanent physical form killing its owner, leaving a physical Zanpakuto spirit walking around without anything controlling it. Because Zanpakuto spirits have their zanpakuto in actual canon as far as we know (Zangetsu had a copy of himself), I think it'd be safe to say that a manifested Zanpakuto spirit could still have some ability of some kind.

Any other thoughts?

[Prime32]

This can explain how that blind Captain was able to bond with his friend's zanpakuto upon her death, perhaps there was so much compatibility that even Bankai can be attained.

I was under the impression that he just used its "corpse" as a vessel to manifest his own zanpakuto, and perhaps managed to keep its original appearance.

[strawberryman]

This might be a reason why SWORD was able to reverse engineer certain equipment to function like a Zanpakuto (but if this didn't happen yet, could be a good plot point to forward this faction) by bargaining with independant Zanpakuto spirits.

They have not.

[Nicklance]

Hmm. I could see there being an "ancient forbidden ritual" that would allow one to manifest their Zanpakuto spirit in a permanent physical form. However, I imagine it was forbidden because there was a risk of the permanent physical form killing its owner, leaving a physical Zanpakuto spirit walking around without anything controlling it. Because Zanpakuto spirits have their zanpakuto in actual canon as far as we know (Zangetsu had a copy of himself), I think it'd be safe to say that a manifested Zanpakuto spirit could still have some ability of some kind.

Any other thoughts?

Fits the Doppleganger theme.

I was under the impression that he just used its "corpse" as a vessel to manifest his own zanpakuto, and perhaps managed to keep its original appearance.

Maybe, this is still speculation material that Kubo did not confirm. So this is at best a contextual use of shaky evidence.

They have not.

Then...maybe they are in the midst of researching this?

[Kuroimaken]

Insofar as using Hell as a backdrop: I'd say at best we could use souls escaped from Hell as a threat, but then it becomes Shinigami responsibility. And it wouldn't be something good to happen right now - Seireitei has its hands full as it is.

[Draken]

If it is not necessary, I would like it not to, because I do not understand how it is a theme of Hell. I very much argue it is not, like Draken's idea was.

Like I explained last time, I was using an ocidental hell, not an oriental one. The ocidental hell is where evil souls are sent to, but not to be cleansed. They are sent there as eternal punishment, and much like any bad prison system, that just causes those sent down there to become worse, which ends up not being a concern since it is expected that they will NOT ever leave. Which is why the scenario in which that happens is so attractive as a story.

As for the "higher power" thing... Yeah, brings back memory of the Olympians. Must say I very much dislike the idea.

[Nicklance]

I think I'll write a new character, preferably peg him as an NPC so that anyone can use him.

Because I think Aya would need some help later on.

Character's name would be Puck. A Dara, which is the equivalent of a vice-captain. He will hail from the Fae underworld of Annwn.

Still on the drawing board. Not that I'm unsatisfied with the current writeup of Annwn, but I might introduce a few changes. I think I'll talk to Edge first.

[Kuroimaken]

*facepalm at self* Misposted!

[KnightDisciple]

Still not really a fan of the Zanpakutou spirit thing. The only way I'd not be totally against it is with the restrictions Frozen spoke of.

As for the "hell faction endgame villains", comparing them to the Olympians isn't an argument in their favor. That faction started on bad ground, and generally went downhill from there. Nukari's sub-arc was, generally, the only good part that came out of that, and that was due to how it interacted with other stories.

"Pinnacle of power" is a red flag in my mind.

Plus, I just don't see what adding Hell, in any sense/flavor, really adds to our story, especially since it really does distract from the theme of "Las Noches against Soul Society" that we have. The Mortal World characters and factions (even SWORD) embody the idea of "stuck in the middle of a fight".

[Kuroimaken]

Let's also not forget we're REALLY trying to shoot for less of a grimdark theme here.

[Innis Cabal]

We can seriously kick puppies and manage that.

[Draken]

Speak for thyselves. I am not happy until there is mad gibbering and mindless drolling happening at the feet of my villains.