Who's played Dark Heresy?

[Theo Hammond]

I seem to recall from oooooold GW textual sources (Legion of the Damned, Realms of Chaos, somewhere around there) that The Emperor was the last remaining of a group of uber-powerful long lived earth shamen, and he has never been much more defined than that. So i'd say that psionics, sorcery and all other manner of shenanigans are (were) plausibly his to command, and operated uniquely to him (i think he may even have had a hand in killing off the other shamen when he united Earth/Terra). Something of a special case though so he'd really rather others who were less able didn't start mucking around in dirty waters (yep, looking at YOU Magnus!).

Of course whether the above still counts as 'cannon' for the Emperor, either for GW or Dark Heresy, i have no idea. There was an actual published awful Black Library novel that painted him as a wierd bitter ranting nutter for example, rather than a husk on life support, and yet i can't imagine that is cannon.

[Theo Hammond]

Bah, looks like i only partially remembered some bits and pieces;

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor_of_Mankind

Thank you internet for being a better memory than i could ever hope to have!

[hamishspence]

There was an actual published awful Black Library novel that painted him as a wierd bitter ranting nutter for example, rather than a husk on life support, and yet i can't imagine that is cannon.

I'm guessing that's Draco- first book in the Inquisition War trilogy. He is still a husk on life support- but he speaks into the title character's mind.

[Surrealistik]

Tech Scorn, Phenomenon which happens on a 69-71 roll.

Yes, it's the exception, not the rule, or something which happens 'whenever he wants to cast something'.

Also, picking Sorcery is rarely an option in a standard DH game.

What Ranos said.

I'm curious, Surrealistik - you have these strong opinions about the style with which you play Dark Heresy. Do you have any stories about your own experiences playing the game? I for one would be interested to hear any anecdotes of how your gaming sessions with such characters have played out, and how your own GM has treated it (unless you GM yourself?).

I have no specific crowning moments of awesome to relate, but my psyker played like a Mary Sue that was good if not the best at achieving almost everything the group set out to do, and was indisputably the best at certain things (interrogating, detection, combat, tracking, intel gathering in general, healing, tech-use were a few). About the only thing I could call a bit of a blind spot was certain types of social interactions, and even that was brought up to passable levels with powers. By the time I hit Psi 5, I actually had to enter into something of a gentleman's agreement with the GM so the other characters had more of a role during the game.

I will say that in the earlier ranks however, he was much less impressive, particularly since I was focusing on pumping WP at the exclusion of most else.

[MickJay]

What Ranos said.

What Drglenn and Destro Yersul said.

[Surrealistik]

What Drglenn and Destro Yersul said.

Picking up Sorcery as a Psyker is pretty damned easy; they have both the stats and the knowledge skills for it.

[comicshorse]

Picking up Sorcery as a Psyker is pretty damned easy; they have both the stats and the knowledge skills for it.

But ,as far as I can tell from the background, they will likely be executed the first time they're caught using it

[Ranos]

But ,as far as I can tell from the background, they will likely be executed the first time they're caught using it

Depends who catches him, and whether he can be silenced in time
But yeah, psykers have it pretty damn easy when it comes to sorcery. The alternate paths even make it clear that there's no research involved, that stuff just comes to them naturally.

Honestly, I wouldn't force an adept player to make a big deal out of learning sorcery either, even if they do have a restriction on the malefic scholar. Adepts need all the help they can get. If you can call learning sorcery "help"

[comicshorse]

But yeah, psykers have it pretty damn easy when it comes to sorcery. The alternate paths even make it clear that there's no research involved, that stuff just comes to them naturally.

" quicker, easier the Dark Side is......"
Er sorry, wrong franchise

[Destro_Yersul]

I'd stick in RP requirements on anyone who wanted sorcery, really. At very least, they should have a reason for the character to take that route.

Also, while adepts may not be the best at combat, that's not everything DH is about. There's plenty of investigation and other such stuff as well, and they're really good at that.

They can even be good at combat, if they're lucky enough. I ran a game with one who carted around this massive handcannon and blew everything away with it.

[Ranos]

True, true. Still, you have to admit that even in those areas, they're not much better than the arbitrator or the cleric. What they do well is knowledge skills, and really, no matter how good you are, rolling knowledge checks is just not an exciting party role.

Splatbooks like radical's handbook and blood of martyrs did a good job bumping them up in power though.

[MickJay]

True, true. Still, you have to admit that even in those areas, they're not much better than the arbitrator or the cleric. What they do well is knowledge skills, and really, no matter how good you are, rolling knowledge checks is just not an exciting party role.

That depends on the GM - you can give extra info to the adept on a piece of paper, and see if he shares it or not (especially if he's got an agenda of his own).

[Destro_Yersul]

Yeah, with the expanded rules in the Inquisitor's Handbook, the adept and his knowledge skills can be really useful. If you're not in a hurry, an appropriate Scholastic Lore test can increase any related skill by +10, and both common lore and forbidden lore can give bonuses to interactions with certain groups.

The adept is just more suited to background roles than at the forefront of combat. He's a support character. Not particularly good at doing anything by himself, but invaluable as part of a team.

[hamishspence]

" quicker, easier the Dark Side is......"
Er sorry, wrong franchise

"The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the warp"

"If once you start down the path of heresy, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will."

[Ranos]

"I felt a great disturbance in the Warp, as if millions of voices...Oh wait, nevermind, that's just the weekly exterminatus. Is it Tuesday yet ?"

[sengmeng]

real bullet use in vietnam was 300 rounds per kill.

[The Glyphstone]

real bullet use in vietnam was 300 rounds per kill.

And this is relevant....how?

[Sarco_Phage]

And this is relevant....how?

He is a bit late to the conversation, but near the start of the thread some dude was complaining about how a Guardsman, despite being a trained military man (for a given value of "trained") couldn't hit ass.

There were some points brought up about how suppressing fire is a far more important aspect of modern warfare, which leads to a high relative shot-to-kill ratio.

[The Glyphstone]

He is a bit late to the conversation, but near the start of the thread some dude was complaining about how a Guardsman, despite being a trained military man (for a given value of "trained") couldn't hit ass.

There were some points brought up about how suppressing fire is a far more important aspect of modern warfare, which leads to a high relative shot-to-kill ratio.

Ah, roger roger.

[Weasel of Doom]

I've never found psykers to be at all overpowered. I recognise that if you play an extremely strict RAW game with the rules all interpreted how Surrealistik sees them then sure they might be broken, this hasn't been the case for me. If a psyker player tries to break the game they probably can, if the GM doesn't use the many options they have to stop this, but I don't that's a fair test of the game; not everyone wants to play a darkholder voidborn with living nightmare who has pumped WP to the exclusion of all else and that's the benchmark you're using to test the game.

I've also never heard of anyone playing DH with point buy so maybe point buy combined with the ability to acquire whatever weapon you want and an active attempt to break the game do in fact break the game. I still don't care, all my experiences with the game have been positive and have not suffered from any of the problems Surrealistik complains of.

Getting hurt? That is the LEAST if my problems.

Oh no, in the Grim Dark blah blah blah, there are horribly incompetent people how have no business holding the business end of lasgun.

Anyways, a 40% hit rate is a horribly incompetent solider with no business on the battlefield, let alone an Inquisitor's Retinue.

40%? Really?

Say 30 base BS, 2 advances (pretty easy even at low-levels) 40, full-auto +20, aiming +10, more aiming +10, surprise +20 = 100% chance of hitting.

That'd be an average of 5 hits, pretty respectable considering this is with a below average roll on BS.

Sure, you have to need to aim and get surprise for this to work but DH is a system where you really have to fight smart. The party should try and get the drop on their enemies, plan combats and use the enviroment to thier advantage. That's one of the things I really about the system. We have removed the limit on stacking modifiers though, maybe that makes a huge difference.

[Drglenn]

40%? Really?

Say 30 base BS, 2 advances (pretty easy even at low-levels) 40, full-auto +20, aiming +10, more aiming +10, surprise +20 = 100% chance of hitting.

That'd be an average of 5 hits, pretty respectable considering this is with a below average roll on BS.

Sure, you have to need to aim and get surprise for this to work but DH is a system where you really have to fight smart. The party should try and get the drop on their enemies, plan combats and use the enviroment to thier advantage. That's one of the things I really about the system.

You could even drop half the aiming and the surprise if you're at point blank (1-3m) range (+30 to hit). Or just half the aiming if you're at your weapon's short (half the listed) range (+10 to hit)

[Theo Hammond]

Thats reminded me of something that caused some problems in our game - supression.

It seemed ridiculously easy for the PCs to just supress wholse swathes of bad guys, virtually stopping some fights before they could ever start (and of course it could go against the PCs too with similar effectiveness). In the end we basically made a gentleman's agreeement to just not use it against each other.

Were we playing it right?

Its a full action with an automatic weapon, 45 degreee arc at half weapon range (so particularly awesome in corridors). No need to roll to make it happen, it just does, and when it does all effected folk have to make a rather tricksy -20 pinning (WP) test or be pinned (which is nasty - half actions only, MUST move to cover if not in it, can only retreat if in cover already, -20BS, test on straight WP at end of turn to end condition). Also you still get a -20BS chance to hit the effected baddies too.

Maybe its because the party were in a space-hulk-ish scenario for quite a while that the geography and foes combined to make this action particularly effective, but it just seemed a little too good at totally locking up assailants.

Ah yes, i remember our other conundrum with it. Supressing fire is issued. Baddies are pinned. End of turn baddies test WP and are unpinned. Before their next action supressing fire is issued again (same source, same arc) - do they have to re-test for pinning all over again back on -20WP?

[Weasel of Doom]

Thats reminded me of something that caused some problems in our game - supression.

Suppression can be pretty nasty. Tactics my party uses when suppressed by filthy heretics is to try and outflank them or otherwise use stealth and alleyways to get to where we can shoot at or charge them, lob a couple of grenades at them from around a corner or just dose up one frenzon (making them immune to pinning as per the errata) and charge straight through the gunfire.

[profitofrage]

Supression fire IS meant to be VERY good. But there are many MANY things that can get around it. These range from drugs to various fearless beasts. Plus you have to remember there is a willpower test involved so your not going to pin everyone all the time. Combine that with the fact that anyone with an automatic weapon can employ this same tactic against you makes it not so much an issue as a "who goes first" Supression fire is good because its meant to take the fore in most shootouts. Its the job the "adept" does with an autogun since he cant do much else e.t.c

If you were having issues its probably because your GM wasnt experienced enough to know to expect it and work around it. I know in my games supression fire is a nessesity. People who are supressed? Then move, they use there half actions to navigate and spread out, throw grenades, half action aim, duck down behind cover giving total cover AP. Granted these are for "high level and or smart" foes but theres always a way to play an enemy harder if you try.

[Theo Hammond]

If you were having issues its probably because your GM wasnt experienced enough to know to expect it and work around it.

Oh i agree, it was our first play-through from 1st to 5th and for an action that never really got used in our WoD games i think it came as something of a surprise to all that it was so effective in this system (so why wouldn't you use it!?). Certainly in our return to the system its clear we need to be more mindful of just how tactical combat can, and should, be. You've got an awful lot of options there to be used and so we defs needs to be careful not to sink into any sort of 'run and gun' mindset that other systems allow for.

[profitofrage]

Yea, I its really easy to make mistakes in DH if your the GM.
I thought id throw a boss fight at my low level party in the form of a gang boss. Dual wielding Auto pistols would be badass. The party shouldnt have a problem taking him.
In one round he reduced all of them to half wounds and one of them into crits

Not to mention the time my npc's discovered the fullaction aim....an autogun with +20 with another +20 for automatic results in PC's turning into red goo.
Frankly supression is needed to ensure that enemies DONT get the chance to use fullactions

[Surrealistik]

I've never found psykers to be at all overpowered. I recognise that if you play an extremely strict RAW game with the rules all interpreted how Surrealistik sees them then sure they might be broken, this hasn't been the case for me. If a psyker player tries to break the game they probably can, if the GM doesn't use the many options they have to stop this, but I don't that's a fair test of the game; not everyone wants to play a darkholder voidborn with living nightmare who has pumped WP to the exclusion of all else and that's the benchmark you're using to test the game.

WP is pumped to the exclusion of all else only at the earlier ranks. If you start out at a higher rank, you never have to go through that painful experience to begin with.

Further, you don't _have_ to go Darkholder Voidborn with LN to be overpowered as a Psyker, but it obviously helps aggrandize your strength quite a bit.

Third, I don't see the GM 'stopping' it and yet simultaneously playing fair. You can argue that the Psyker doesn't get a heavy weapon sure, but that doesn't stop him from still being better than everyone at almost everything.

I've also never heard of anyone playing DH with point buy so maybe point buy combined with the ability to acquire whatever weapon you want and an active attempt to break the game do in fact break the game. I still don't care, all my experiences with the game have been positive and have not suffered from any of the problems Surrealistik complains of.

It should be noted that point buy isn't necessary to build an uber-psyker as I believe I've demonstrated (and yes it is used). That said, assigning the stats you roll is a _very_ common rule (probably more common than pure random stat generation), and safely assures you have a psyker that scores a 15+ WP on his rolls, which means 70+ WP when your WP is maxed.

[TomBaker]

Well apart from massive derailment into arguments over psykers, in response to anyone reading the OP's question it is a awesomely fun game system.

Also I know a few people have mentioned that combat for PCs can be squishy, but I've been running the purge the unclean's first mission and found that the party absolutely killed everything in it's path. And it wasn't the psyker being jack of all trades, it was actually the assassin.

Also psykers with MP Lascannons: probably not what Rick and Jervis had in mind when defining cannon.

[The Glyphstone]

Well apart from massive derailment into arguments over psykers, in response to anyone reading the OP's question it is a awesomely fun game system.

Also I know a few people have mentioned that combat for PCs can be squishy, but I've been running the purge the unclean's first mission and found that the party absolutely killed everything in it's path. And it wasn't the psyker being jack of all trades, it was actually the assassin.

Also psykers with MP Lascannons: probably not what Rick and Jervis had in mind when defining cannon.

Probably. So if we want to give the psyker a heavy weapon, we'll need to...
...

...
Fire the canon.

[SamL]

My friend has been GM a campaign that has been very enjoyable so far. I would definitely recommend starting from level one, though. First of all, it's just very rewarding seeing your character gradually go from completely pathetic to badass, and secondly because of how the gameplay has a way of tempting characters out of optimized builds to pick and choose other skills.

After a few months of hard fought gameplay, our core party (a biomanti-focused voidborn psyker, an Imperial-world guardsman, A Melfian noble arbite, a voidborn assassin and myself, a hive scummer) had just started to get cocky because we had just reached rank 5 and were finally at the level where we could reliably gun down mooks. Of course, we were then ambushed by a rival acolyte party who would have killed our guardsman had our psyker not used his biomantic powers to save his life (as it is, he lost an arm and both he and our assassin had to burn fate points to survive).

As for our psyker, he's started to get fairly powerful with his healing and biolightning, but he has also accidentally summoned a Plaguebearer to attack the party, and generally gets shot to pieces if he starts manifesting psychic powers in combat situations. This plus our GMs adherence to the 41st millenium's general attitude of "every psyker is a potential witch" mistrust has kept him out of the "lascannon-gamebreaker" mold I keep hearing about for now

As for me, I'm enjoying the Hell out of being hive scum. Good mix of combat, fellowship and even some investigative abilities, and I'm the only player who hasn't had to burn a fate point yet, though I did come close when a giant clock exploded right next to me.