General Exalted Discussion III: Weddings Are An Act of Villainy

[Sanguine]

Or it means these styles don't offer greater enlightenment, but reinforce Dragon-Blooded superiority by their ability to master that which the mortal cannot, even when enlightened.

Charms especially Martial Arts charms are a refinement of ones core being in a very specific manner. Enlightenment in other words. That's my final words on the matter.

Edit: I saw you post and am changing my mind about final words. Since when are Enlightened Mortals the masses. They are like one in every hundred people if that and those are the ones with Essence 1. And I have no problem with them creating styles only the superior beings can learn. That's what the Immaculate Dragon Styles are. My problem is the absurdity that a style created specifically for Enlightened Mortal Monks can't be mastered by them.

[Mikal]

Charms especially Martial Arts charms are a refinement of ones core being in a very specific manner. Enlightenment in other words. That's my final words on the matter.

And the Immaculate Order preaches obedience in this life to get true enlightenment in the next, and only the Dragon-Blooded can be truly enlightened.

Ergo, if Martial Arts are a refinement of ones core being, thus enlightenment, they would only support styles mortals CAN'T master for use by enlightened mortals, since they want to reinforce the belief that "Dragon-Blood=Enlightenment, Mortals=Maybe next life if you do good this one by serving the Dragon-Blooded"

After all, the Immaculate Order and the Realm both frown upon any sort of enlightenment, making it largely illegal. They don't want enlightened mortals. They'll use them if they're handy, but they don't want them.

The Order is tool of control after all, not a sincere religion.

Edit: I saw you post and am changing my mind about final words. Since when are Enlightened Mortals the masses. They are like one in every hundred people if that and those are the ones with Essence 1. And I have no problem with them creating styles only the superior beings can learn. That's what the Immaculate Dragon Styles are. My problem is the absurdity that a style created specifically for Enlightened Mortal Monks can't be mastered by them.

One in every hundred people is a much larger percentage when compared to any exalt, including the Dragon-Blooded, and can actually be considered "the masses" since theoretically any mortal can achieve enlightenment with the various ways to do so.

And while you may find it absurd, it makes sense when looking at the Immaculate Philosophy and its goals. It doesn't WANT enlightened mortals, and those that DO exist they want to make sure don't get thoughts that they can be the equal of the Dragon-Blooded.

Thus, a martial art style which Enlightened Mortals can't master, but which they can use, makes perfect sense for an order that wants to marginalize Enlightened Mortals as much as possible. Again, it's about control.

If the religion was actually meant to somehow improve humanity, then yes, it'd be absurd. But it's not. Also, Five-Dragon is meant to be taught to non-monks, which means Dynasts, not enlightened mortal monks. They just get it if the Order has such a mortal handy.

[Tavar]

A supernatural martial art that a mortal can master as well as a Dragon-Blood can negates this, or at the least casts doubts, which is something religion tries not to do. Logic/Doubts+Religion= Failure.

That's patently false. Mortals can master weaker styles as well as dragonblooded can, true. But to do so take a huge amount of work. And, even after doing so a Dragonblooded can use them better, as well as learn them with greater ease. More importantly, they have stronger styles that they alone can know. No mortal can manage a Celestial Style. Dragonblooded can.

By your logic, having enlightened mortals at all would break the Immaculate faith, which is at odds with what the faith preaches. Yes, mortals are below dragonblooded, but with sufficient work they can eventually reach near parity in a very small, select field. But only near parity.

Also, the Immaculate order does have Enlightened mortal monks. In fact, in canon, those make up the majority of their itinerant monks. Note that these are enlightened following Immaculate doctrine, and thus are exemplars for the religion.

[Mikal]

That's patently false. Mortals can master weaker styles as well as dragonblooded can, true. But to do so take a huge amount of work. And, even after doing so a Dragonblooded can use them better, as well as learn them with greater ease. More importantly, they have stronger styles that they alone can know. No mortal can manage a Celestial Style. Dragonblooded can.

Which again, is not the point. The point isn't whether or not a Dragon-Blood can do more, but that a Dragon-Blood is better, in all ways, to any sort of Mortal. Dragon-Bloods are the pinnacle, the top, the apex, in every single way

By your logic, having enlightened mortals at all would break the Immaculate faith, which is at odds with what the faith preaches. Yes, mortals are below dragonblooded, but with sufficient work they can eventually reach near parity in a very small, select field. But only near parity.

Reread the stuff on the faith again. Enlightened mortals ARE against the Immaculate Faith. It's generally considered a sin and a crime for a Mortal to even attempt enlightenment, as it rises them beyond their station.

Also, the Immaculate order does have Enlightened mortal monks. In fact, in canon, those make up the majority of their itinerant monks. Note that these are enlightened following Immaculate doctrine, and thus are exemplars for the religion.

Yes, which are the small exceptions to the general note stated above. But even then, it's about control. Even the most pious and best mortals cannot master a style that a Dragon-Blooded can.

If they could, then what else could a Mortal do? That's a question the Immaculates don't want asked, and that allowing a style that a mortal could master could bring up.

EDIT: And as stated above, Five Dragon is a) The only one endorsed by the order (not Even Blade as well, my bad) but it's generally used by people OUTSIDE the Order.

[Reynard]

Again, it's not a matter of "We can do x, y, z." It's a matter of "We do everything better than you."

A supernatural martial art that a mortal can master as well as a Dragon-Blood can negates this, or at the least casts doubts, which is something religion tries not to do. Logic/Doubts+Religion= Failure.

I find it very amusing that so many people seem against a religion that preaches a certain sect of beings as superior in all ways only advocating styles that can only be mastered by those beings, and not by the masses, no matter how hard they try (unless they get possessed by demons and become Anathema)

Have you read the sections of the books that talk about the doctrine?

Becuase I don't think you have.

[Mikal]

Have you read the sections of the books that talk about the doctrine?

Becuase I don't think you have.

1. All beings in Creation are constantly dying and being reincarnated, ascending and descending the Road of Enlightenment. Those who are Exalted are very close to the end of the Road, while insects and plants are near the beginning. Most sentient mortals are somewhere near the center.
2. As beings approach the end of the Road, they approach the infinite perfection of Essence that is the Elemental Dragons, who hold Creation together.
3. Working in solitude and striving to surpass their lot in life, all beings in Creation draw away from the perfection of the Elemental Dragons. Working together and accepting their present incarnations, all beings in Creation mimic the Elemental Dragons and approach their perfection.
4. The Dragon-Blooded, who were the disciples and children of the mortal incarnations of the Elemental Dragons, are leading the Immaculates toward that degree of perfection.
5. The Anathema, who reject the Elemental Dragons and obey only their own ambitions, are drawing Creation toward despair and ruin.

In other words, Dragon-Blooded are at the top, everyone needs to work together,obey your spiritual betters, and never trust Anathema.

So yes. Yes I have.

EDIT:
Also, the Diligent Practices

1 Hear a recital of an Immaculate Text at least once a month, in the company of at least seventeen other followers of the Philosophy.
2 Respect and honor Spirits only according to the calendar and in the specific rites set down by the Immaculate Order, giving each spirit its due only insofar as it serves the harmony of Creation.
3 Imitate in word and deed the honorable behaviors of the Five Immaculate Dragons, the mortal incarnations of the Dragons of the Elements. Emulate the thoughts appropriate to your incarnation as decreed by the Immaculate Dragons.
4 Obey the Dragon-Blooded, who are the descendants and disciples of the Immaculate Dragons and are so close to enlightenment that their commands cannot cause a soul to stray from the Road.
5 Resist the commands of the Anathema to the fullest degree of the abilities of your present incarnation, and do not fall into despair.

In other words, listen to doctrine, don't give spirits extra prayers to keep them in line, act like the false dragons we created do to reinforce our dogma, 4 blatantly says obey the dragon-blooded, and resist the commands of the anathema

[Yuki Akuma]

Enlightened Mortals are totally "the masses" when compared to Dragon-Blooded.

There are billions of mortals, and therefore millions of enlightened mortals. There are tens of thousands of Dragon-Blooded.

[Tackyhillbillu]

The Order is tool of control after all, not a sincere religion.

If the religion was actually meant to somehow improve humanity, then yes, it'd be absurd. But it's not. Also, Five-Dragon is meant to be taught to non-monks, which means Dynasts, not enlightened mortal monks. They just get it if the Order has such a mortal handy.

You... are utterly wrong.

The Immaculate Doctrine is a collection of lies and truths. However, here is the thing? The Monks in the order are neither universally bad or good. And a lot of them are trying to help humanity.

Look, Gods are jerks. The Immaculate Order says "lets not worship gods. They treat us like crap. Lets work to better ourselves." Now, it has a lot of false and misleading stuff interjected into it by the Sidereals, but the Monks truly believe it. And they believe by helping mortals to follow it, they put them on the path to enlightenment.

At the core of it? Dragonblooded are not the villains of Exalted. Immaculate Monks aren't either. They are neither good nor evil. Some try to help, some use their power as a method of control. But most of them truly believe the religion, and have seen the effect it has. Because here is the thing. The Realm is the best place in Creation for a Mortal to live.

[Yuki Akuma]

The Immaculate Philosophy is a tool of control and a sincere religion.

Several Sidereals actually believe it.

[Mikal]

You... are utterly wrong.

No actually, I'm not.

The Immaculate Doctrine is a collection of lies and truths. However, here is the thing? The Monks in the order are neither universally bad or good. And a lot of them are trying to help humanity.

Which has nothing to do with the Immaculate Faith ultimately being a system of control over gods, spirits, and mortals.

Look, Gods are jerks. The Immaculate Order says "lets not worship gods. They treat us like crap. Lets work to better ourselves." Now, it has a lot of false and misleading stuff interjected into it by the Sidereals, but the Monks truly believe it. And they believe by helping mortals to follow it, they put them on the path to enlightenment.

Just because a lie is believed doesn't make it truth.

At the core of it? Dragonblooded are not the villains of Exalted. Immaculate Monks aren't either. They are neither good nor evil. Some try to help, some use their power as a method of control. But most of them truly believe the religion, and have seen the effect it has. Because here is the thing. The Realm is the best place in Creation for a Mortal to live.

Which again, has nothing to do with my point, that the Immaculate Faith is ultimately a tool of control, not true spiritual enlightenment.

EDIT: As for the best place for Mortals to live, I'll disagree. It's the safest. As long as you don't get in the way of Peleps Deled. Or piss off any Dragon Blood. Or a patrician. Or a magistrate. Or live in an area a magistrate disenfranchises for a bribe.

If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky. And many DO trade freedom for stability. That doesn't make it the best.

The Immaculate Philosophy is a tool of control and a sincere religion.

Several Sidereals actually believe it.

But those who created it do not. Just because those who came after believe the lie does not make the lie true.

[Tackyhillbillu]

No actually, I'm not.

Yes, you are.

Just because a lie is believed doesn't make it truth.

Now we are getting dangerously close to forbidden topics. But if the law is entirely unverifiable? It is true. Or the closest possible thing.

Which again, has nothing to do with my point, that the Immaculate Faith is ultimately a tool of control, not true spiritual enlightenment.

Actually, you are wrong. The Immaculate Faith produces enlightenment. There is a reason Immaculate Monks are the only DBs who can use CMAs. Because they get these neat charms, as a result of an incredibly dangerous, and painful training. Called Enlightenment Charms.

EDIT: As for the best place for Mortals to live, I'll disagree. It's the safest. As long as you don't get in the way of Peleps Deled. Or piss off any Dragon Blood. Or a patrician. Or a magistrate. Or live in an area a magistrate disenfranchises for a bribe.

If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky. And many DO trade freedom for stability. That doesn't make it the best.

Oh my, the risk of pissing off a DB, who actually faces retribution from a watchful set of superiors is so much more dangerous then pissing off a God, who is immortal, reacts to stimuli in random ways, and has no oversight whatsoever.

The Realm is a pretty nice place. Lookshy as well, honestly.

If you want to live in a state where you will always be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters then yes, the Realm is just ducky.

And this is worse then living in a state where you will be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters that almost the entirety of Creation does? Complete with the threat of utter annihilation, ruled over by beings that view you as a cow, to be milked for prayers, and discarded when your usefulness is gone?

[Mikal]

Yes, you are.

Except I'm not.

Now we are getting dangerously close to forbidden topics. But if the law is entirely unverifiable? It is true. Or the closest possible thing.

Except this can be verified. Within the main book itself it says something similar to the following:

'After the Usurpation most minor Gods and Spirits saw the regicide of the Solars as an insult, and outright refused to cooperate with the new Shogunate. In order to maintain the hold of their new Terrestrial lords, the Bronze Faction gave the Dragon Blooded Celestial Martial Arts powerful enough to subdue both minor Gods and the few remaining stray Solars. All this combined with a religious mandate of conquest sent a powerful message to Creation, the people heard: "Your new lords have arrived," the spirits heard: "Obey us or get hurt."'

There. Verification.

Actually, you are wrong. The Immaculate Faith produces enlightenment. There is a reason Immaculate Monks are the only DBs who can use CMAs. Because they get these neat charms, as a result of an incredibly dangerous, and painful training. Called Enlightenment Charms.

...Right. Because the Enlightenment Charms only come from the Immaculate Faith right?

I guess we'll just ignore Tiger and Bear Unity then.

Note: That was Sarcasm. DBs have been using CMA for thousands of years, long before the Immaculate Faith was constructed. ANY DB can learn an Immaculate style with a teacher and the right charm. It's not due to the Immaculate Faith. They just control (there's that word again) the knowledge of the styles and the means of learning it.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Except this can be verified. Within the main book itself it says something similar to the following:

'After the Usurpation most minor Gods and Spirits saw the regicide of the Solars as an insult, and outright refused to cooperate with the new Shogunate. In order to maintain the hold of their new Terrestrial lords, the Bronze Faction gave the Dragon Blooded Celestial Martial Arts powerful enough to subdue both minor Gods and the few remaining stray Solars. All this combined with a religious mandate of conquest sent a powerful message to Creation, the people heard: "Your new lords have arrived," the spirits heard: "Obey us or get hurt."'

There. Verification.

Hey guess what? That is the gods. Who are *******s. And lie to mortals all the time. No verification for the DBs.

...Right. Because the Enlightenment Charms only come from the Immaculate Faith right?

I guess we'll just ignore Tiger and Bear Unity then.

Note: That was Sarcasm. DBs have been using CMA for thousands of years, long before the Immaculate Faith was constructed. ANY DB can learn an Immaculate style with a teacher and the right charm. It's not due to the Immaculate Faith. They just control (there's that word again) the knowledge of the styles and the means of learning it.

It produces enlightenment. That there are other paths to it does not change the fact that it does.

[Mikal]

Hey guess what? That is the gods. Who are *******s. And lie to mortals all the time. No verification for the DBs.

Except this comes from the book, not from the Gods. So... yeah, wrong again.

It produces enlightenment. That there are other paths to it does not change the fact that it does.

Enlightenment charms for Martial Arts doesn't mean actual enlightenment. But hey, I guess being pedantic works for you

Oh my, the risk of pissing off a DB, who actually faces retribution from a watchful set of superiors is so much more dangerous then pissing off a God, who is immortal, reacts to stimuli in random ways, and has no oversight whatsoever.

If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again

The Realm is a pretty nice place. Lookshy as well, honestly.

As long as you're a Terrestrial Exalt it is, yeah.

And this is worse then living in a state where you will be an underclass with few rights compared to the divine masters that almost the entirety of Creation does?

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

Complete with the threat of utter annihilation, ruled over by beings that view you as a cow, to be milked for prayers, and discarded when your usefulness is gone?

Yup, because those Gods sure have no set of rules, oversight, or hierarchy. None whatsoever. Pure ANARCHY, Heaven must be.

[Sanguine]

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters of the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting their citizenry. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Except this comes from the book, not from the Gods. So... yeah, wrong again.

Yes, but here is the thing? Nobody in the game knows this, besides the gods. As well? The other splats contradict that, and each other. Nothing in Exalted's history is fixed. Each book tends to write from the point of view of their Exalt.

If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again

Hahahahha. Oh wait, you are being serious. The Terrestrial Bureacracy... is broken. It doesn't work at all. Most of the Censors are lazy jerks, and their underlings are just as lazy. There is no oversight. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in better shape... if having wars over office supplies is 'better shape.'

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

This is the state Mortals live in everywhere. The Realm Mortals simiply have it better.

Yup, because those Gods sure have no set of rules, oversight, or hierarchy. None whatsoever. Pure ANARCHY, Heaven must be.

Read MoEP: Sidereals, my man. Yu-Shan is a trippy place. When you sneak into the office of the God of the Blessed Isle Rainfall to steal his Pencil Erasers, only to find that Sidereals from the Bureau of Serenity are throwing a party in there because they are just that drunk, something is up.

---

Edit:

Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters of the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting their citizenry. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

And to be fair, that was mostly the idea of Talespinner, who is a former Mortal, not the typical God at all.

[Lix Lorn]

As the Sidereals books explains in loving detail, the bureaucracy of heaven is about as competent as... hmm... trying to find an example here extreme enough to insult the bureaucracy to the extent it deserves.

...
Let's just say not competent at all.

Also, very few if any LIVING beings know the other enlightenment charms.

[Mikal]

Yeah, but unlike in the Threshold the Divine Masters the Realm actually stand a chance of protecting you. Well I guess the gods of Great Forks were actually pretty impressive in that regard; but they are an exception to the rule.

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...

Yes, but here is the thing? Nobody in the game knows this, besides the gods. As well? The other splats contradict that, and each other. Nothing in Exalted's history is fixed. Each book tends to write from the point of view of their Exalt.

Ah so because a lie is believed by all its the truth, even if we, as players, know it's a lie?

Yeah... that's not how... lies and truth work.

Hahahahha. Oh wait, you are being serious. The Terrestrial Bureacracy... is broken. It doesn't work at all. Most of the Censors are lazy jerks, and their underlings are just as lazy. There is no oversight. The Celestial Bureaucracy is in better shape... if having wars over office supplies is 'better shape.'

Ah, I see, so the Gods of course are all greedy and lazy, while the pious, enlightened Dragon-Blood do naught but better the world. Interesting mind-set there.

This is the state Mortals live in everywhere. The Realm Mortals simiply have it better.

Nexus begs to differ. Paragon begs to differ.

Read MoEP: Sidereals, my man. Yu-Shan is a trippy place. When you sneak into the office of the God of the Blessed Isle Rainfall to steal his Pencil Erasers, only to find that Sidereals from the Bureau of Serenity are throwing a party in there because they are just that drunk, something is up.

Hmm, weird. Looking in the book and I don't see that anywhere. it surely must be a trippy place, if your book has stuff mine doesnt!

As the Sidereals books explains in loving detail, the bureaucracy of heaven is about as competent as... hmm... trying to find an example here extreme enough to insult the bureaucracy to the extent it deserves.

...
Let's just say not competent at all.

Competent =/= non-existent, which is what the other poster is claiming.

Also, very few if any LIVING beings know the other enlightenment charms.

Which changes the fact the other poster was wrong about the Immaculate Order being the end-all be-all of enlightenment, or that ONLY Immaculate DBs know CMA.... how?

[Lucus Casius]

*sidereal'ed*

[Mr.Bookworm]

Enlightenment charms for Martial Arts doesn't mean actual enlightenment. But hey, I guess being pedantic works for you

What? That is exactly what Enlightenment in Exalted means. It's bizarre that you could think it means anything else. Here's one quote from the Dragon-Blooded book. I have more.

The Five Glorious Dragon Styles are Celestial martial arts. To begin studying such powerful Charms, a Dragon-Blooded student must first be properly initiated. Methods vary, but such an initia- tion always includes a deep purification of the body and mind. The Terrestrial Exalt eats little other than rice, steamed vegetables and dough, water and various teas while meditating daily on such distant concepts as “dust,” “ash,” “rainstorms,” “death” and “the word,” among others. Celibacy is often an additional measure to reinforce the purity of the body.

This is only a part of the process that advances a Dragon- Blood’s level of enlightenment toward one that can comprehend the internal and external impacts of Celestial martial arts. The other significant portion of that study is to learn a pair of Charms that open her mind and soul to new, advanced methods for ma- nipulating Essence. Once she recognizes the heights and depths to which Essence permeates and affects Creation, she can begin to transcend the natural limitation of her Terrestrial blood. Sifus share this wisdom with their Dragon-Blooded students by teaching them a pair of Charms designed to open their senses and experiences to a broader world.

If only the Gods had some sort of oversight... perhaps a bureaucracy of some sort. Yup. Too bad they don't have oversight.

Note: Sarcasm again

I know you have at least read the Exalted books.

This statement confuses me, then, because anyone who has actually read anything tangentially related to Exalted knows that the Celestial and Terrestrial Bureaucracies are two of the most inefficient, corrupt, and wasteful governmental organizations ever put in fiction, who do more or less jack squat to keep Terrestrial gods running rampant.

As long as you're a Terrestrial Exalt it is, yeah.

...what? You have read the Exalted books, right? That's becoming increasingly unclear to me. It's made very clear that the average mortal in the Realm or Lookshy has it comparatively nice.

This is the state Mortals live in in the Realm...

And it is the state every non-heroic mortal that has ever existed lives in. Saying mortals bow down to a master is like saying the sky is blue.

EDIT: Sidereal'd hard.

[Mikal]

What? That is exactly what Enlightenment in Exalted means. It's bizarre that you could think it means anything else. Here's one quote from the Dragon-Blooded book. I have more.

I'm speaking of enlightenment as in the learning, expanding sense, beyond the Exalted version of "here, more power for you". Which yes, I know, can be a definition of enlightenment, but not the only definition, as was being claimed.

I know you have at least read the Exalted books.

This statement confuses me, then, because anyone who has actually read anything tangentially related to Exalted knows that the Celestial and Terrestrial Bureaucracies are two of the most inefficient, corrupt, and wasteful governmental organizations ever put in fiction, who do more or less jack squat to keep Terrestrial gods running rampant.

I didn't say it was efficient. I said it was there.

...what? You have read the Exalted books, right? That's becoming increasingly unclear to me. It's made very clear that the average mortal in the Realm or Lookshy has it comparatively nice.

As long as you like to trade freedom for (illusionary) safety, then yes. It's nice.

Until the Scarlet Empress comes back with the demons and turns it into Hell on Earth.
Or you get disenfranchised in the meantime.
Or you look at a Dragon-Blood the wrong way.

And it is the state every non-heroic mortal that has ever existed lives in. Saying mortals bow down to a master is like saying the sky is blue.

Did I say they didn't? All I'm saying is that what the Realm has isn't better just because it's safer (especially when it's not).

[Tackyhillbillu]

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

Paragon: All serve the Prefect. Oh and we are screwed the moment anything supernatural shows up.

Lookshy: Are also followers of the Immaculate faith.

Nexus: Live in terror of the whims of one of the gods who blow people up, and the rule of the guild, who will literally sell your soul to the Fae.

Halta: We are pawns of the Silver Pact, those guys who think Ma-Ha-Suchi is an authority figure, and are also screwed.

The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

This... this is the stupidest thing you have said... pretty much period. Here is the thing. The Realm? Yeah, it is the most powerful force in the entire setting. Malfeas, the Underworld, all of them? The Realm is entirely capable of going head to head, and winning. There is a reason that all of those enemies are going with subversion.

The Dragonblooded have stood, fought, and won before every threat creation has faced. They die, but their brothers pick up the blade. Creation lives and breathes because every inch of soil is stained with DB blood, from DB victories. The DBs killed the First Age Solars. They are not inconsequential. They are heroes, just as much as the Solars, Lunars, and other Exalts.

And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...

Except they aren't and they won't be? Because Mnemnon Launches her Xanatos Gambit, and breaks the connection of a vast majority of DBs, and then leads a resistance force against her mother. Also, this does show why the whole 'weak Exalts' thing is moronic, given that the ED has spent so much time corrupting the DBs, when if they were truly all that weak, he could have just roflstomped them.

[Tavar]

Just to point out; the Silver pact is pretty much a club, not a ruling body. Plus, it's stated that if anyone knew what Ma-Ha was doing, they'd basically go gank him.

Also, the Realm is far from the most powerful thing in the setting. The only thing holding back Malfeas is their oaths, otherwise the Primordials would stomp the realm flat. The Underworld...most things in there just don't really care, or want some more complicated thing. As is, I believe the Mask of Winters could solo all the Dragon-Blooded in creation, if he wanted to.

Now, the Realm Defense Grid is quite probably the most powerful thing in the setting, but that's a very different thing from the Realm.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Which of course is why those are the only places in Creation. Paragon, Lookshy, Nexus, Halta, and so on are figments of imagination.

Paragon- The exception that proves the rule. Ruled by a powerful Enlightened Mortal holding an extremely powerful Artifact N/A.

Lookshy- Ruled by Dragon-Blooded, with the largest stores of First Age weaponry in Creation.

Nexus- Secretly ruled by a being implied to be on par with the Incarnae.

Halta- Created and supported by two First Age Lunars.

The Realm is actually a very bad place to be. They have the illusion of safety brought about by complacency. They have large numbers of weak Exalts who can do nothing against the true threats of Creation, and actively Demonize those who do have a chance.

The Realm was quite literally the safest place to be in Creation, at least while the Empress was around. The Realm Defense Grid is the most powerful weapon in Creation.

And even those weak Exalts will be mostly screwed when the Empress comes back and starts turning them all into slaves with those Dynasty charms to work for her Ebon Groom...

So is the entire rest of the world.

Nexus begs to differ. Paragon begs to differ.

See back above.

Hmm, weird. Looking in the book and I don't see that anywhere. it surely must be a trippy place, if your book has stuff mine doesnt!

I am very, very confused if you have ever actually read an Exalted book. I'm not being insulting or facetious. Every single thing ever written about Yu-Shan has made it clear that it's a pretty wild place.

Competent =/= non-existent, which is what the other poster is claiming.

Non-existent would quite literally be better then the Bureaucracy as it stands.

Which changes the fact the other poster was wrong about the Immaculate Order being the end-all be-all of enlightenment, or that ONLY Immaculate DBs know CMA.... how?

That doesn't change that 99% of DBs who know Celestial martial arts in the current day are Immaculate monks.

I'm speaking of enlightenment as in the learning, expanding sense, beyond the Exalted version of "here, more power for you". Which yes, I know, can be a definition of enlightenment, but not the only definition, as was being claimed.

What?! Did you actually read what I posted? The two are intimately connected. You learn Enlightenment charms by becoming enlightened.

I didn't say it was efficient. I said it was there.

Yes, it is "there". It might as well not be.

As long as you like to trade freedom for (illusionary) safety, then yes. It's nice.

The Realm has protected it's citizens for 700 years. Successfully. In Creation? They have the biggest guns, the best armies, and the most land.

Did I say they didn't? All I'm saying is that what the Realm has isn't better just because it's safer (especially when it's not).

...the Realm, under the Empress, was quite literally the safest place to be in Creation. I'm not going to argue a basic fact of the setting.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Just to point out; the Silver pact is pretty much a club, not a ruling body. Plus, it's stated that if anyone knew what Ma-Ha was doing, they'd basically go gank him.

Also, the Realm is far from the most powerful thing in the setting. The only thing holding back Malfeas is their oaths, otherwise the Primordials would stomp the realm flat. The Underworld...most things in there just don't really care, or want some more complicated thing. As is, I believe the Mask of Winters could solo all the Dragon-Blooded in creation, if he wanted to.

Now, the Realm Defense Grid is quite probably the most powerful thing in the setting, but that's a very different thing from the Realm.

The Lunar Elders are pulling the strings of Halta, and... I don't think they would. Because they are all just as nuts as he is. See Leviathin, that guy who is angry because the DBs killed his mate. Admiral Arkadi. Best known for raping female DBs under him, and then swearing them to silence with his Anima.

No, actually it is explicitly stated that the Realm is the most powerful force in the setting. If the Yozi were able to utilize their full powers, Malfeas would be. But they aren't.

And no, the Mask wouldn't be able to. If you want to go by crunch, we can (the DBs can kill him. It would be long, and a pain in the ass, and plenty of them would die, but they would get him down.) If we want to go by Fluff? The DBs already did, and can again.

[Mikal]

Paragon: All serve the Prefect. Oh and we are screwed the moment anything supernatural shows up.

Yes, because the South is void of anything Supernatural, and Paragon has no supernatural defenders. Nope, they don't hire outcastes, god-bloods, and have a Solar who serves the Perfect.

Nexus: Live in terror of the whims of one of the gods who blow people up, and the rule of the guild, who will literally sell your soul to the Fae.

Which of course, is why no one lives there, or why Nexus forces you to live there if you do. Wait, no, neither of those happen.

Halta: We are pawns of the Silver Pact, those guys who think Ma-Ha-Suchi is an authority figure, and are also screwed.

Uh huh. Screwed because... why, you say so?

This... this is the stupidest thing you have said... pretty much period. Here is the thing. The Realm? Yeah, it is the most powerful force in the entire setting. Malfeas, the Underworld, all of them? The Realm is entirely capable of going head to head, and winning. There is a reason that all of those enemies are going with subversion.

....The only thing the Realm has going for it is the Sword of Creation. You do realize the Yozi's literally cannot enter Creation without being summoned due to the Solars and the pacts they made, yes?

And that the only reason the Ebon Dragon is doing this plan is because it's the only way he can freely enter Creation? And once he does the Realm is utterly screwed?

Also, the Neverborn and Deathlords are stupid. They all rub their hands and act cartoon villainous rather then banding together. If they wanted to, and actually worked at it, Creation would already be dead.

I do have to say though, your false faith in the Realm does mirror what the average citizen would think. So, bravo for thinking like a mortal in Creation.

The Dragonblooded have stood, fought, and won before every threat creation has faced.

*Cough*Fair Folk*Cough* (note, being saved by a weapon created by Solars does not mean the Dragonblood won. It means an act of desperation worked)

They die, but their brothers pick up the blade. Creation lives and breathes because every inch of soil is stained with DB blood, from DB victories. The DBs killed the First Age Solars. They are not inconsequential. They are heroes, just as much as the Solars, Lunars, and other Exalts.

You keep pounding that warrior spirit. I'll keep looking at the reality of the situation based on stuff like, how charms work and what a Solar can do verses a Dragon-Blood.

You know, reality.

Except they aren't and they won't be? Because Mnemnon Launches her Xanatos Gambit, and breaks the connection of a vast majority of DBs, and then leads a resistance force against her mother. Also, this does show why the whole 'weak Exalts' thing is moronic, given that the ED has spent so much time corrupting the DBs, when if they were truly all that weak, he could have just roflstomped them.

Yes. Because that's how the Ebon Dragon works. He rolfstomps them.He totally isn't the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally can work outside of his themes.

Wait, no, he totally IS the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally CAN'T think outside of those themes.

Now Malfeas? MALFEAS would roflstomp them. Except of course he can't. Because of the oaths.

The Ebon Dragon has to do what he does the way he does. It's what he is. It's all he is. And, luckily for him, the way he is is about the only way a Yozi will be freed. And when one is freed, the rolfstomp does begin.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Yes, because the South is void of anything Supernatural, and Paragon has no supernatural defenders. Nope, they don't hire outcastes, god-bloods, and have a Solar who serves the Perfect.

Because all that stuff? Is going to be a little kid caring a watering can compared to the Wildfire that is the Relclaimation.

Which of course, is why no one lives there, or why Nexus forces you to live there if you do. Wait, no, neither of those happen.

Yep. People live there willingly. Shows how awful the rest of Creation is by comparison.

Uh huh. Screwed because... why, you say so?

Because they don't have the forces to fight off the Fae, let alone the Reclaimation, and their Lunar masters regard them as a Petri Dish, not an actual breathing civilization.

....The only thing the Realm has going for it is the Sword of Creation. You do realize the Yozi's literally cannot enter Creation without being summoned due to the Solars and the pacts they made, yes?

And that the only reason the Ebon Dragon is doing this plan is because it's the only way he can freely enter Creation? And once he does the Realm is utterly screwed?

Also, the Neverborn and Deathlords are stupid. They all rub their hands and act cartoon villainous rather then banding together. If they wanted to, and actually worked at it, Creation would already be dead.

I do have to say though, your false faith in the Realm does mirror what the average citizen would think. So, bravo for thinking like a mortal in Creation.

No. I have faith in the DBs, who killed the First Age Solars? Who are stated as holding back the limitless onsalught of the Fae for a time. Who have the largest caches of weaponry, training, and skill in Creation.

*Cough*Fair Folk*Cough* (note, being saved by a weapon created by Solars does not mean the Dragonblood won. It means an act of desperation worked)

*Cough Cough* The fact that the Exalts managed to eat the Primordials doesn't mean the Incarnae won. It means an act of desperation worked. Also, Lookshy.

You keep pounding that warrior spirit. I'll keep looking at the reality of the situation based on stuff like, how charms work and what a Solar can do verses a Dragon-Blood.

You know, reality.

Reality, like how Peleps Deled can take the Iconic Solar Circle on alone, and win? Yeah. Get back to me on that.

Yes. Because that's how the Ebon Dragon works. He rolfstomps them.He totally isn't the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally can work outside of his themes.

Wait, no, he totally IS the incarnation of trickery and betrayal, and totally CAN'T think outside of those themes.

Now Malfeas? MALFEAS would roflstomp them. Except of course he can't. Because of the oaths.

The Ebon Dragon has to do what he does the way he does. It's what he is. It's all he is. And, luckily for him, the way he is is about the only way a Yozi will be freed. And when one is freed, the rolfstomp does begin.

The Ebon Dragon... isn't as limited as you think. He isn't trickery and betrayal. Or, he isn't just them. The ED is spite. He hates everything. He desires to destroy it. Trickery and Betrayal are tools, and good ones.

And if the Realm is so weak... WHY SUBVERT IT? Why not choose one of these other shining bastions, or just use the Yozi Cultists and their Akuma? Oh wait, because the Realm isn't that weak. And could stomp the forces of the Yozi, barring the release of the Yozi themselves.

[Lucus Casius]

Clearly, you are all idiots, and do not see the true heroes of the setting.

The Fae.

Riding adorable ponies of magic and friendship, they weave dreams of glory, valor, and happiness for the benefit of themselves and mortals. Anyone who is not turned into a soulless mindslave would be overjoyed to be under their benevolent rule. They destroy the evil gods and Exalted in order to bring a divine new age of imagination.

Discuss.

[Yuki Akuma]

Dreamer Pony approves.

[Mikal]

Because all that stuff? Is going to be a little kid caring a watering can compared to the Wildfire that is the Relclaimation.

Uh huh. And this has what to do with the Immaculate Order how?

No. I have faith in the DBs, who [i]backstabbed[/b] the First Age Solars with lots of help from Sidereals and suffered horrific causalities doing so? Who are stated as being driven back with little effort from the limitless onsalught of the Fae. Who have the largest caches of weaponry, training, and skill in Creation.

Italics show where I fixed your quote.
As for weaponry, training, and skill, they scavenge that which their betters left behind, things which their betters can easily recreate within a year or so's time, by the book.

*Cough Cough* The fact that the Exalts managed to eat the Primordials doesn't mean the Incarnae won. It means an act of desperation worked.

...Yes, because the Primordial War totally was going against the Gods and Exalted, and only the effort of one of them stopped the Primordials and drove them back.

It totally wasn't a long war of hundreds of years where the Primordials were beat down and either killed, forced into oaths of servitude, or ran away.

They're completely the same (except they're not).

Reality, like how Peleps Deled can take the Iconic Solar Circle on alone, and win? Yeah. Get back to me on that.

Repeat after me: Comics aren't canon. Seeing as how there's nothing in the books saying he has, then he hasn't.

Also the Iconic Solar Circle doesn't mean they're the best Solar Circle. Or even a good Solar Circle.

The Ebon Dragon... isn't as limited as you think. He isn't trickery and betrayal. Or, he isn't just them. The ED is spite. He hates everything. He desires to destroy it. Trickery and Betrayal are tools, and good ones.

Except that he has to encompass all of his traits. He can't really turn one off. So, while full of spite and hate, he has to do things in a matter of trickery or betrayal.

Also, nothing you said in the quote above would mean he isn't as limited. All it means is he can't be nice. In fact... that limits him even more. So you're right. He isn't as limited as I thought. He's even more limited.

And if the Realm is so weak... WHY SUBVERT IT? Why not choose one of these other shining bastions, or just use the Yozi Cultists and their Akuma? Oh wait, because the Realm isn't that weak. And could stomp the forces of the Yozi, barring the release of the Yozi themselves.

Because the Realm has a ready made workforce of slaves thanks to Dynasty Charms, and he controls the idiot who wrote the Broken Winged Crane in an attempt for MOAR POWAH, a useful idiot who also controls the Sword of Creation, which, if you read the book RotSE, he has plans for.

If some other idiot wrote the broken winged crane, had lots of ready made slaves thanks to dynasty charms, and controlled something able to break the Ampholos, I'm sure ol' Ebby Draggy would have gone there.

Clearly, you are all idiots, and do not see the true heroes of the setting.

The Fae.

Riding adorable ponies of magic and friendship, they weave dreams of glory, valor, and happiness for the benefit of themselves and mortals. Anyone who is not turned into a soulless mindslave would be overjoyed to be under their benevolent rule. They destroy the evil gods and Exalted in order to bring a divine new age of imagination.

Discuss.

Feh. The Fae can't be the heroes. They're too genre savvy!