Monk... Why do they suck?

[Doc Roc]

The reason why people don't "just fix the monk" is because, unlike your assertions, that's a rather difficult thing to do. Because no, it's not just a matter of a few simple changes to the Core Monk class.

Much simpler, and much better, to simply used Wizards' own fixes, in the form of either Tashalatora or Swordsage. I have never read any homebrewed Monk fix (despite enjoying homebrew in general), because honestly that strikes me as a monumental waste of my time: Tashalatora and Swordsage already give me just about everything I want out of a Monk, and it is ever so tedious to slog through someone's opinions on what a Monk should or shouldn't be.

There are few things I regret in this life. Writing Penny Dreadful's Monk is one of them.

[sonofzeal]

There are few things I regret in this life. Writing Penny Dreadful's Monk is one of them.

May I ask why? This sounds like a comment with some subtext.

[T.G. Oskar]

The reason why people don't "just fix the monk" is because, unlike your assertions, that's a rather difficult thing to do. Because no, it's not just a matter of a few simple changes to the Core Monk class.

Those few simple changes are not fixes, they are patches. Patches so that the Core Monk can contribute to the group. It's not really difficult, but it will be subjective to your idea of what a Monk should be. Still...

Much simpler, and much better, to simply used Wizards' own fixes, in the form of either Tashalatora or Swordsage. I have never read any homebrewed Monk fix (despite enjoying homebrew in general), because honestly that strikes me as a monumental waste of my time: Tashalatora and Swordsage already give me just about everything I want out of a Monk, and it is ever so tedious to slog through someone's opinions on what a Monk should or shouldn't be.

You're entitled to your opinion, and that's fine and well, but not everybody subscribes to it, or there wouldn't be any more "why Monk sucks" threads. I personally like the idea of psionics and Monks, and also have tackled the problem in my own terms, but after a while, I realized that some people just won't agree with me, and the best thing I can do is point them to what they do agree with. Thus, the best answer I could give is "choose what pleases you and makes you have fun"; if you were to ask me, I'd give an opinion based on the mechanics because I like to give the answer to that question via a mechanical sense, generally pointing to my attempt as little as possible (even though right now I'm doing it).

But, here's the big deal. If you find tedious to slog through everyone's opinions, it begs the question of why post in a thread about why Monk's suck aside from just giving your opinion, because that's what everybody is doing right here; reading through everybody else's opinions and expanding upon that, attempting to refute, or even suggest a new way to tackle it. Just as a friendly advice, because it sounds a bit arrogant when you read it (and the transmission of intention through the 'net is much more difficult than figuring what's wrong with the Monk and how to fix it). Mostly because it gives the vibe of "there's nothing else to do, so why bother?" which, while a valid opinion, is no fact nor superior statement. Plus, it kinda rubs mud on the hard work of 'brewers because it sounds like belittling their opinions regarding their work (because they took the time to explain why they did X or Y thing, hoping that people examine them and critique them honestly). Not saying you do, but consider that it might sound like it if I managed to interpret it that way.

[Veyr]

Those few simple changes are not fixes, they are patches. Patches so that the Core Monk can contribute to the group. It's not really difficult, but it will be subjective to your idea of what a Monk should be. Still...

In my opinion, no class that relies on the Core combat system alone is worth playing. Classes need some sort of subsystem to give them options and versatility that just isn't present in the Core mechanics. The Core mechanics provide a foundation; a class needs to add something to that. No simple Monk patch is going to do that.

You're entitled to your opinion, and that's fine and well, but not everybody subscribes to it, or there wouldn't be any more "why Monk sucks" threads. I personally like the idea of psionics and Monks, and also have tackled the problem in my own terms, but after a while, I realized that some people just won't agree with me, and the best thing I can do is point them to what they do agree with. Thus, the best answer I could give is "choose what pleases you and makes you have fun"; if you were to ask me, I'd give an opinion based on the mechanics because I like to give the answer to that question via a mechanical sense, generally pointing to my attempt as little as possible (even though right now I'm doing it).

But, here's the big deal. If you find tedious to slog through everyone's opinions, it begs the question of why post in a thread about why Monk's suck aside from just giving your opinion, because that's what everybody is doing right here; reading through everybody else's opinions and expanding upon that, attempting to refute, or even suggest a new way to tackle it. Just as a friendly advice, because it sounds a bit arrogant when you read it (and the transmission of intention through the 'net is much more difficult than figuring what's wrong with the Monk and how to fix it). Mostly because it gives the vibe of "there's nothing else to do, so why bother?" which, while a valid opinion, is no fact nor superior statement. Plus, it kinda rubs mud on the hard work of 'brewers because it sounds like belittling their opinions regarding their work (because they took the time to explain why they did X or Y thing, hoping that people examine them and critique them honestly). Not saying you do, but consider that it might sound like it if I managed to interpret it that way.

I agree with you, in general here. I only posted in the first place because I was insulted by JonestheSpy's assertion that the Monk was simply fixed. I think that is a major insult to everyone, WotC included, who has spent a lot of time and effort fixing it.

I don't mean to say that either Swordsage or Tashalatora are the end-all, be-all of Monks. I'm saying that they're what I want from it. The concept of "Monk" is so nebulous and vague that homebrew Monks inevitably lead to someone's own perception of the concept that is utterly undefined. That's why we have dozens of them. I don't really like Monks, so all of that is just, like I said, tedious for me.


As for reading this thread, you're absolutely right... heh. It's kind of like a train wreck, can't look away? I really have no excuse there. Mostly just bored? I suppose you could validly point out that if I'm bored enough to waste my time in a thread like this, I'm bored enough to start reading Monk homebrew...

[Lhurgyof]

Since I can't number crunch for crap, I'll just give a long list of complaints on the monk:

• Can't use its two best abilities, Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement, in the same turn.
• d8 hit die and 3/4ths BAB gimps its ability to melee, and someone doing hit and run is less effective then someone who can stand and fight. In fact, they can't hit and run since Flurry needs a full action! Inability to use armor compounds the durability problem.
• Needs high Strength (make up for poor BAB and to support stunning fist/grappling/etc.), Dexterity (increase AC to compensate for lack of armor), Constitution (the low hit die requires high amounts of this), and Wisdom (class abilities and the Wis to AC bonus). Most classes only need two or three decent scores, but the monk needs four very good scores.
• Incompatibility between class skills and most armor prevents stat bonuses to compensate for the above. Does nothing to remove the need for ring of flight, etc.
• Unarmed Strike cannot be enchanted with effects like the main weapons of other classes, nor can it be used as a ranged option. The increasing damage is nice, but without size bonuses it's not enough to compensate for all the missing the monk's 3/4 BAB causes or the damage bonuses other classes can get from their weapon enhancements.
• Monk special weapons (if you want to go that route) don't receive the benefits of Ki-strike or the other unarmed strike bonuses.
• Movement bonus is an enchantment bonus, and therefore does not stack with any other bonuses.
• Ki Strikes helps a little with some forms of damage resistance, but doesn't help deal with ethreal creatures and the like.
• Most of their abilities are severely gimped versions of spells gained much earlier, and at less uses too. Slow Fall, for example, is a limited distance and needs a wall nearby. At level 1, a wizard can take Feather Fall and fall indefinitely without needing a wall. Even at level 20, the monk still needs a wall nearby. Almost all the worthwhile ones are one per day, with Quivering Palm being once per week with an effect casters of equal level can spam several times per day, and without the attack roll.
• Immunities come too late to be helpful, or are never helpful at all. Diseases are rarely used outside Mummy Rot, Poisons are non threats by that point, and supernatural diseases (which would be much more useful to block) are not guarded against.
• Wholeness of body is outstripped by a handful of potions or Cure Light Wounds, and does little to compensate for lower hit die.
• Spell Resistance is hardly an obstacle for spellcasters, as several spells aren't affected by it and there are metamagic feats like Greater Spell Penetration (in Core)/Assay Resistance (out of Core) that grant moderate to massive bonuses to rolls against SR. This does nothing to help against spells that trivialize touch AC like True Strike. Worst of all, you can't choose what it effects. Your ally's attempts to use Cure Critical Wounds to save you don't work.
• The capstone making you an outsider bars you from some of the most useful buffs you can get, such as Enlarge Person (massive reach boost, benefits grapple, upgrades the unarmed strike damage dice, and more), and the damage reduction is both low (5 or 10, iirc? Seriously?) and comes with an extremely common damage type as the exception (Magic. Count how many core monsters of that CR don't have a magic means of attack.)
• No trap sense and not having disarm device as a class skill hurts their effectiveness as a scout, and the lack of points to spare for Int prevents them from skill monkeying (except if going the Kung Fu Genius route). Charisma is almost always the dump stat, making them poor party faces. Their 'defenses' against magic, as noted above, do nothing against effects like Force Cage, etc., so they're not mage killers by a long-shot.
• None of the abilities compliment each other, excepting once per day effects like Dimension Door, which are (as stated repeatedly) once per day. They can't fill any significant party roles, and are lacking as back up for any of the main roles due to not being able to focus on one goal.

That's just off the top of my head. 15 major problems, without me looking up a guide or anything for information. The list of pros, bonus feats, scattered immunities/resistances, and a movement bonus, is much shorter.

Luckily, there's plenty of good fixes on the net. Even if you don't go the unarmed swordsage route, just about everyone has a monk fix. I think half the people in this thread (myself included) has one, of all different shapes and sizes.

• Monks don't need high STR, they can either go full WIS and have intuitive strike or go full Dex and go weapon finesse.
• Oh, look, another non-caster class that isn't as good as casters!? *gasp* WORST CLASS EVER! /sarcasm
• Same HD as ranger, but 3/4 BAB does hurt a bit.
• Incompatibility of skills?
• Ring the Golden Bell and Necklace of natural attacks... Or use a sling for ranged attacks.
• True, but most of the time, you should be fighting unarmed. Unless using things like the Kusari Gama, Kau Sin Ke, or Sai.
• There ARE speed bonuses that aren't enhancement bonuses. Just because it doesn't stack with haste, boots of striding and springing, (and probably longstrider) doesn't mean it's the end of the world. Plus, with all that speed bonus your base will be about on par with people increasing their speed.
• Ki strike helps with damage reductions that it lists. Lawful is pretty neat. Plus, with your Necklace of Natural Attacks (which is a REAL must) you can hit ethereal creatures...
• Oh boy, a mundane character that can do gimped magic stuff? I'd like to see a fighter slow fall, or quivering palm or even teleport for that matter. Because the abilities aren't all that useful doesn't detract from the class. They're pretty nifty and fun to see special abilities with cool names every level. Plus, slow-falling on a wall is pretty bad ass.
• Also, by level 20, the monk should have Tumble checks high enough to deal with most, if not all falling damage.
• Immunities are always useful. And it also opens up poison use for the monk.
• Wholeness of Body, although not as useful as healing magic is still really good.
• Spell Resistance is ALWAYS a threat to spellcasters. Most spellcasters don't even have those feats or spells. And regular caster monsters usually would only have spell penetration. I've only seen one PC ever take Spell Penetration.
• The capstone is pretty meh. I like the idea behind it, though. It looks good. In play, not quite sure.
• They can still D-Door out of a force cage, and have nice stealth skills.

Now, I understand monk is subpar, and is like trying to jam a puzzle piece into a spot that doesn't fit it sometimes. But it is in no way THAT bad. A lot of people just take up common attack points against it and most don't see those points in play. I commonly play monks, so I get to see it's shortcomings, and, yes, even its strengths (It probably helps that the first monk I played was in Dark Sun, and the second being in Hackmaster, so I'm probably just as biased as everyone else here).
It's an okay class, but it needs a bit of optimization. I know I'm not changing anyone's minds here, but I think people are a lot harsher on the poor class than it deserves.

[Veyr]

But it is in no way THAT bad.

UserShadow7989's list was quite thorough and accurate, IMO, and IMO, yes, yes they are that bad (and worse).

[Gnaeus]

[LIST][*]Monks don't need high STR, they can either go full WIS and have intuitive strike or go full Dex and go weapon finesse.

So they pay a feat tax, on a class that already needs more feats than it gets, to have the same ability bonus on their to-hit roll that a less MAD class would have had to begin with, and their strength is still jacking up their damage.

[LIST][*] Same HD as ranger, but 3/4 BAB does hurt a bit.

Rangers aren't a good melee class either, unless they have entered MoMF. Rangers also have light armor, which is usually better than Monk's wisdom bonus.

[*]Ring the Golden Bell and Necklace of natural attacks... Or use a sling for ranged attacks.

Sling does terrible damage. It isn't enough to have a ranged attack, that attack should also do meaningful damage.

[*]Oh boy, a mundane character that can do gimped magic stuff? I'd like to see a fighter slow fall, or quivering palm or even teleport for that matter. Because the abilities aren't all that useful doesn't detract from the class. They're pretty nifty and fun to see special abilities with cool names every level. Plus, slow-falling on a wall is pretty bad ass.

Fighter is also a terrible class. Having abilities with cool names is just a trap, unless those abilities actually do something useful.

Slow-Falling on a wall is worth less than 2,200, the cost of a ring of feather fall. The fighter can duplicate all the monk abilities, much, much cheaper than the monk can duplicate the fighters additional BaB, better weapon selection, and more useful feats. And struggling to be better than a fighter is like saying that a 4-wheeler is better than a go-cart for interstate driving.

Also, by level 20, the monk should have Tumble checks high enough to deal with most, if not all falling damage.

By level 20, every well built PC can fly. The few who can't do it automatically bought flight items many levels ago.

[*]Immunities are always useful. And it also opens up poison use for the monk.

So at level 11, you have the option of coating your fists with expensive poison that enemies will save against on a 2. Thats good.

[*]Wholeness of Body, although not as useful as healing magic is still really good.

Not really. Spending a round in combat to heal 40 hp at level 20 is awful. Outside combat, a wand of CLW is much better.

Spell Resistance is ALWAYS a threat to spellcasters. Most spellcasters don't even have those feats or spells. And regular caster monsters usually would only have spell penetration. I've only seen one PC ever take Spell Penetration.

Spell resistance is a bad joke. It helped the monk earlier in the thread, because the wizard could only roll a 1. And the wizard could still win. Anyone who is threatened by it has multiple other routes to crush offending creatures with SR. Leaving aside SR: No spells (of which there are many, even in core), and Summons, and spells that create things that are tougher than monks, casters can turn themselves into things that can beat up monks. I agree, I don't usually take spell penetration, but that is because SR is no threat.

[*]They can still D-Door out of a force cage.

If they could do it more often than a caster could cast force cage, that would be helpful.

and have nice stealth skills.

Not really. At 4 skill points per level, they can't do most of the important things on their skill list, especially since most monks have to dump int.

And stealth is only marginally useful in 3.5 anyway. Sneaking ahead to scout is likely to result in death from a monster with scent, blindsight, blindsense, or a high spot or listen (or you roll badly). Darkstalker helps, if your monk can afford to drop another feat. Monk isn't as good a scout as a rogue. Rogue isn't as good a scout as a Bard or Beguiler or Factotum or most tier 1 casters.

To be useful PCs must be good at something. Monks aren't really good at anything that most parties need.

[darkdragoon]

It's a paradox. By forgoing armor or a normal weapon you end up carrying a bunch of other magic items to support them. Similarly with your health and the pitiful amount of healing from class you need even more healing items (and unless you go crossclass into UMD, somebody to use them on you).


Strength affects more than attack rolls, so Weapon Finesse/Intuitive Attack don't fully address issues.

Similarly 1/day-week effects when others can spam them does not help much.

Throwing? Oh, yeah, you can use shuriken. I suppose that's not too bad, except you know others can use bows and such. Or shoot various magic beams of doom. Plus the "I want to throw things really hard" class is Strength-based.

Clerics and Druids have the same HD/BAB, but that's barely even worth mentioning to them. Ranger feel it more but they can at least plop on Arrow Mind etc. before unleashing their h8rade on orcs. and they get a Pikachu.

[The equalizer]

Monks get an assortment of abilities but they don't fit into an exact melee role. Its really odd in the sense that they have great defensive potential but horrible offensive potential. Thats just how they are. Now, thts not saying they can't offensively contribute but the fact that they are straped for ability points plus the fact that their signature ability, stunning fist, requires two attributes to max out is a bummer. Very odd design. They are a melee class which is actually best as backup melee, slipping into flanks, that sort of thing. Burn feats in fiery fists and fists of iron and you can do quite a bit of damage if you are able to set up the situation favorably.

[Alienist]

You should know that the admins sharpen the ban-hammer whenever a monk thread goes too long. Casting Animate Dead on one that is almost two years old probably isn't going to help.....