Monk... Why do they suck?

[Malevolence]

Winged boots have an even shorter duration, phantom steeds are no less useless than carpets of flying, and most parties are going to have multiple useful members that don't get fly on their own.

Winged boots take your own action, not the action of those trying to win the fight. Said other characters are also less gear dependent than the Monk, because everything is, meaning that they are more likely to have flying boots. And of course there is a 0% chance a VoP Monk has those things. Comparing Phantom Steed to Carpets of Flying is not a point in the flying spell's favor.

And just who are these multiple non fliers? They certainly are not Clerics, Druids, Wizards, or Sorcerers. They likely are not Psions either, or Favored Souls.

[TroubleBrewing]

So... Non-Tier 1 or 2 classes. Probably not Tier 3 classes, either. I think we're done here.

[Sims]

What really sucks about Abundant Step is that you can only do it once per day. And the Prestige, Tattooed Monk, sucks too. Only like 3 or 4 of the Tattoos are useful. The rest are that "Once per day" bull crap.

A Monk should have better BAB and Unarmored AC Bonus. Plus let them use Abundant Step 3-5 times per day. (Or like once per day per 2 levels of Monk)

They should automatically get Weapon Focus, and perhaps Weapon Specialization for their Unarmed Strikes.

I think these tweaks would bump them up quite a bit.

[ThunderCat]

And just who are these multiple non fliers? They certainly are not Clerics, Druids, Wizards, or Sorcerers. They likely are not Psions either, or Favored Souls.

There happens to be 4 whole tiers beneath those. I think we already agreed that in a high optimisation environment, monks don't stand a chance, and the only way for them to be even remotely useful is to be able to do everything themselves, because wasting even a swift action on the monk is not worth it for anybody else.

[TroubleBrewing]

A Monk should have better BAB and Unarmored AC Bonus. Plus let them use Abundant Step 3-5 times per day. (Or like once per day per 2 levels of Monk)

They should automatically get Weapon Focus, and perhaps Weapon Specialization for their Unarmed Strikes.

I think these tweaks would bump them up quite a bit.

Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec won't help at all. They're terrible feats, and giving them for free provides a negligible power boost.

If you want a "Monk fix", as has been stated many, many times, try Unarmed Swordsage.

There happens to be 4 whole tiers beneath those. I think we already agreed that in a high optimisation environment, monks don't stand a chance, and the only way for them to be even remotely useful is to be able to do everything themselves, because wasting even a swift action on the monk is not worth it for anybody else.

High optimization has nothing to do with it. Even a blaster wizard preps Fly. If you're in a game with any kind of full caster, a monk gets outclassed.

[Gnaeus]

All tier 1s and 2s can fly under their own power.

All casters can fly under their own power. For a few of them, it requires taking a feat or spell list expanding PRC to do so. For some, it involves summoning or creating a flying mount and riding it. Even the tier 5 paladin can cast a spell to let his mount fly.

That leaves:

Tier 3: Crusader, Warblade,

Tier 4: Rogue (can UMD a wand of fly), Barbarian, Scout, Marshal,

Tier 5: Fighter, Monk, CA Ninja, Healer (Can Gate in something to fly), Swashbuckler, Rokugan Ninja, Soulknife (not sure), Expert (can UMD a wand of fly), Knight

So of the 30 classes in the tier list, about 12 can't fly, and about 3 have difficulty flying.

That list doesn't include MoI, but I think they can fly. It also doesn't include Spirit Shaman, Wu Jen, Shukenja or Dragon Shaman, all of whom can fly. Samurai is tier 6 and cannot fly. Am I missing anyone?

Edit: Lets also point out that some of those (like Scout, and some Fighters), have good ranged combat ability. It isn't as good as just being able to take to the air, but they aren't shut out like a monk is just because a fight is happening 40 feet off the ground. Knight's challenge may be able to make their enemies come to them. Warblade and Crusader can give a caster an extra turn (WRT) so that it doesn't take time to buff them for flight.

[vikingofdoom]

For the tier 3's: only SS gets flight normally (Balance on the Sky or Rising Phoenix, both 8th level stances). The others don't normally get the ability to fly, and would need a large investment of feats to get the stances (both requires 4 feats (3 pre-reqs each) and RP requires that you remain within 10 feat of the ground, while BotS requires that you keep one hand empty.

[Gnaeus]

For the tier 3's: only SS gets flight normally (Balance on the Sky or Rising Phoenix, both 8th level stances). The others don't normally get the ability to fly, and would need a large investment of feats to get the stances (both requires 4 feats (3 pre-reqs each) and RP requires that you remain within 10 feat of the ground, while BotS requires that you keep one hand empty.

Thanks Viking. I will amend.

[Elric VIII]

I have to say, while Monk 20 (or any amount of levels above 6) is bad, Monk 2 is pretty good.

It grants:

• +3 to all saves.
  
• 3 feats (IUS, Imp Grapple or Stunning Fist, and Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows) waiving all pre reqs.
  
• Evasion (that functions in light armor).
  
• 4+Int skill points/level
  
• If you're unarmord, for some reason, you get Wis to AC and Flurry (although if you want this you're better off with a Monk's Belt)

[TroubleBrewing]

It's... Not a bad 2-level dip. But I wouldn't call it good.

[Malevolence]

There happens to be 4 whole tiers beneath those. I think we already agreed that in a high optimisation environment, monks don't stand a chance, and the only way for them to be even remotely useful is to be able to do everything themselves, because wasting even a swift action on the monk is not worth it for anybody else.

And three of those four are primarily defined by what they cannot do. The last, Tier 3 generally can either fly, or doesn't need to fly, because they can do something from the ground. A party of say... Beguiler, Crusader, Warblade, and Monk is hardly high optimization, but still mostly contains people that either don't need to fly or do but can provide their own flight. And in any case there's no flight casters here, because those are limited to the top two tiers with few if any exceptions. In such a party the Beguiler is going to be spamming save or loses, the Crusader is going to be flying and attacking, and WRTing the Beguiler, the Warblade is going to be doing much the same thing, and the Monk is going to be missing his own touch AC.

[Malevolence]

I have to say, while Monk 20 (or any amount of levels above 6) is bad, Monk 2 is pretty good.

It grants:

• +3 to all saves.
  
• 3 feats (IUS, Imp Grapple or Stunning Fist, and Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows) waiving all pre reqs.
  
• Evasion (that functions in light armor).
  
• 4+Int skill points/level
  
• If you're unarmord, for some reason, you get Wis to AC and Flurry (although if you want this you're better off with a Monk's Belt)

The only reason this is a factor is because beatsticks have to desperately hunt for any low hanging fruit they can find.

[Elric VIII]

The only reason this is a factor is because beatsticks have to desperately hunt for any low hanging fruit they can find.

Agreed. While I would never personally play something so mundane, I think it can be useful to the magically-challenged.

[Seerow]

I have to say, while Monk 20 (or any amount of levels above 6) is bad, Monk 2 is pretty good.

It grants:

• +3 to all saves.
  
• 3 feats (IUS, Imp Grapple or Stunning Fist, and Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows) waiving all pre reqs.
  
• Evasion (that functions in light armor).
  
• 4+Int skill points/level
  
• If you're unarmord, for some reason, you get Wis to AC and Flurry (although if you want this you're better off with a Monk's Belt)

Sure, if you ignore that you gave up a full point of BAB for it. This means later entry to a lot of prestige classes, late qualification for key feats, and just hitting less in general.

If you're trying to optimize a high save +evasion/mettle build, sure it may be worth it... but in that case there are better ways to go about it. Namely a charisma build with dips into Paladin and Marshall.

For any typical beatstick I'd still rather dip Fighter 2 and get two feats of my choosing without losing any BAB than dip Monk 2 and be restricted to 4 feats, only one of which is a generally taken feat (Combat Reflexes). Only reason I'd dip monk is if I was looking for the unarmed/unarmored combat and had an awesome PrC in mind.

[Gnaeus]

For any typical beatstick I'd still rather dip Fighter 2 and get two feats of my choosing without losing any BAB than dip Monk 2 and be restricted to 4 feats, only one of which is a generally taken feat (Combat Reflexes). Only reason I'd dip monk is if I was looking for the unarmed/unarmored combat and had an awesome PrC in mind.

Monk 1/Druid 19. Not as good as Druid 20, but if you plan to be doing a lot of melee & grappling, its decent.

[Keld Denar]

Awesome in spite of the monk level, not because of it.

[Gnaeus]

Thats a little unfair. Improved Grapple and Wis to AC helps Druid a lot. It isn't worth losing a caster level for. But in campaigns without wildling clasps or before you can afford a Monks Belt, it is solid enough. Adding ranks in Know: Religion, Hide, Move Silently and Tumble don't hurt either. Know Religion helps to get into PRCs, and the druid often has available skill points.

[Lans]

That list doesn't include MoI, but I think they can fly. It also doesn't include Spirit Shaman, Wu Jen, Shukenja or Dragon Shaman, all of whom can fly. Samurai is tier 6 and cannot fly. Am I missing anyone?

Magic of incarnum classes can get some flight. Healer can get a companion that can fly or cast fly I believe.

Ranger I'm not totally sure on.
Binders I'm not sure out side of the summoning vestige
I don't think Shadowcasters can.
Trunamers can unrealibly

[Gnaeus]

Magic of incarnum classes can get some flight. Healer can get a companion that can fly or cast fly I believe.

Ranger I'm not totally sure on.
Binders I'm not sure out side of the summoning vestige
I don't think Shadowcasters can.
Trunamers can unrealibly

Rangers have at least 3 ways. Flying AC. Wildshape Variant. Summon Natures Ally 2+.

[Malevolence]

Thats a little unfair. Improved Grapple and Wis to AC helps Druid a lot. It isn't worth losing a caster level for. But in campaigns without wildling clasps or before you can afford a Monks Belt, it is solid enough. Adding ranks in Know: Religion, Hide, Move Silently and Tumble don't hurt either. Know Religion helps to get into PRCs, and the druid often has available skill points.

Monk's Belt gives you everything from a Monk that matters. At levels before you can afford a 13k item, you also don't really need the bonus. Druids have no business ever PRCing, so that's a pointless point to bring up.

Magic of incarnum classes can get some flight. Healer can get a companion that can fly or cast fly I believe.

Ranger I'm not totally sure on.
Binders I'm not sure out side of the summoning vestige
I don't think Shadowcasters can.
Trunamers can unrealibly

Rangers can just shoot from the ground.

[Teln]

I've spoken things over with my DM, who has a copy of Tome of Battle, and he's letting me be an Unarmed Swordsage, but without IUS as a bonus feat. Would it be worth a dip of Monk for this? If so, at what point should I stop?

[The Glyphstone]

I've spoken things over with my DM, who has a copy of Tome of Battle, and he's letting me be an Unarmed Swordsage, but without IUS as a bonus feat. Would it be worth a dip of Monk for this? If so, at what point should I stop?

That's....kinda stupid. Why would an Unarmed Swordsage not be proficient in unarmed strikes?

[Teln]

Because Unarmed is a variant class and the blurb that suggests the variant doesn't mention it. :rolleyes:

[Keld Denar]

UA SS gives you Unarmed Strike as a monk. The description of the UAS class feature in the monk write up is thus:

Unarmed Strike
At 1st level, a monk gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A monk’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a monk may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

Usually a monk’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

A monk also deals more damage with her unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown on Table: The Monk. The unarmed damage on Table: The Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with her unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.

Emphasis mine. So...yea...

[The Glyphstone]

Herp the derp.

To answer your question...still no. Spend a feat slot on IUS if you have to, since you do explicitly get the Monk's unarmed strike progression. A level is more valuable than a feat slot.

[Gnaeus]

Monk's Belt gives you everything from a Monk that matters.

1. False. It doesn't give imp grapple, which helps druids.
2. It doesn't clearly give imp unarmed strike ( one assumes that it would, but...)
3. It doesn't clearly give wis to AC. Most Playgrounders assume that it does, but some DMs rule otherwise, and PF clarifies that it doesn't if you are in a PF game. I'm not arguing the RAW either way, just saying that it isn't something you can count on.
4. Esp if wilding clasps aren't available, DM could rule that some forms can't wear the rope belt.
5. Intelligent enemies may notice that your bear is wearing a rope belt, and Sunder it, which would suck.

At levels before you can afford a 13k item, you also don't really need the bonus.

That is only under 1/2 WBL at level 8. Druids may want to be in melee before level 8. They may also have other things to do with their WBL. Or they may be in a campaign that gives less than WBL. Or it may be a game with no magic marts. You could craft one, but not until 10th level and you would need a Cleric to help.

Druids have no business ever PRCing, so that's a pointless point to bring up.

Sacred Exorcist is often used as a dip to get DMM. It requires know religion. Whether or not this is beneficial depends on build. My party members love my mass lesser vigor (persisted) every morning. YMMV.

[T.G. Oskar]

Sure, if you ignore that you gave up a full point of BAB for it. This means later entry to a lot of prestige classes, late qualification for key feats, and just hitting less in general.

If you're trying to optimize a high save +evasion/mettle build, sure it may be worth it... but in that case there are better ways to go about it. Namely a charisma build with dips into Paladin and Marshall.

For any typical beatstick I'd still rather dip Fighter 2 and get two feats of my choosing without losing any BAB than dip Monk 2 and be restricted to 4 feats, only one of which is a generally taken feat (Combat Reflexes). Only reason I'd dip monk is if I was looking for the unarmed/unarmored combat and had an awesome PrC in mind.

Actually, to clarify:

Evasion gained early means you also gain access to two ACFs early, which are both good: Invisible Fist (invisible, not under the effect of invisibility, once every 3 levels) and Spell Reflection (uses your immediate action to reflect any touch spell that doesn't hit you, 1+Dex times per day). It also works if you need Evasion despite having replaced it on another class (say, Rogue or Ranger or Scout), and at least Invisible Fist is phenomenal on Rogue/Monk builds because it grants a very reasonable, easy to use form of invisibility for your sneak attacks, which lasts for the entire round so it allows for sneaky full attacks. It's also worthwhile if you want early Evasion, which should be decent because Evasion is more dangerous early on.

Fighting styles and a few loosened restrictions outside of Core also aid a lot. Example: Passive Way grants Combat Expertise without the Int requirement and Invisible Eye grants Combat Reflexes (although you still benefit from a high Dex). It's slightly more restrictive as it only offers a trio of feats that might not be so hot (I mean, one offers vanilla Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack on six levels...), but it doesn't limit you to only four choices. If you want, you can also add Monastic Training (the needed feat to enter Tashalatora), or Fiery Fist and the Fiery Fist line as your 2nd level feat (if you choose Stunning Fist). Plus Stunning Fist is great if you know how to use it or optimize it (Ability Focus and Freezing the Lifeblood offers a solid paralysis ability that sneak attackers and just about anyone will appreciate).

However, it's not a dip anyone will make. It's great for some concepts (if using Rogue for the ninja concept, a Monk dip is ironically phenomenal), but not for others (such as your typical beatstick, which may take advantage of a Fighter 2-6 dip for the feats).

[Elric VIII]

For any typical beatstick I'd still rather dip Fighter 2 and get two feats of my choosing without losing any BAB than dip Monk 2 and be restricted to 4 feats, only one of which is a generally taken feat (Combat Reflexes). Only reason I'd dip monk is if I was looking for the unarmed/unarmored combat and had an awesome PrC in mind.

I'm not suggesting it's 100% better than a Fighter dip (it's not like I would require someone to take Monk when Fighter will work), but if you need what it offers, it's great. Plus, there's an ACF that lets you pick Fighter bonus feats in place of Monk feats, that's half of the prereqs for Mo9 right there.

Sacred Exorcist is often used as a dip to get DMM. It requires know religion. Whether or not this is beneficial depends on build. My party members love my mass lesser vigor (persisted) every morning. YMMV.

It requires 7 ranks, so the normal Druid entry for it is level 15. With the Monk dip it becomes level 10.

[Gnaeus]

It requires 7 ranks, so the normal Druid entry for it is level 15. With the Monk dip it becomes level 10.

I thought it was 8 ranks. Lets assume you are right.

Pure druid= 2 ranks at level 1+ 1/2 per level so level 11 (or 13)
With a dip=4 ranks at level 1 + 1/level so you could meet it by level 4 (or 5). Of course, you won't have the other prereqs by then. Druid can spend 2 skill points per level to stay at the maximum.

[Elric VIII]

I thought it was 8 ranks. Lets assume you are right.

Pure druid= 2 ranks at level 1+ 1/2 per level so level 11 (or 13)
With a dip=4 ranks at level 1 + 1/level so you could meet it by level 4 (or 5). Of course, you won't have the other prereqs by then. Druid can spend 2 skill points per level to stay at the maximum.

So, I completely messed up my skill point calculations by using level -3 rather than level +3.

You can get the required spell by level 8-10 (either a 4th or a 5th level spell), but how does a Druid get access to Dismissal or Dispel Evil?