Monk... Why do they suck?

[LordBlades]

Indeed, Mr. Zero. As one currently playing a pure monk, I will admit that they are mechanically inferior. However, I would just like to add that if that if one would pass one class over for another simply because it isn't as good as killing things, then I am afraid the majority of Mr. Gygax's game is lost on you. May I suggest( and mind you this is just a suggestion) that you try an 4th edition or an mmo? There lies FAR more room for your math and optimization.
One should play a druid, not beacuse he can stomp anything flat in 2 turns or less, but because one wants to be a champion for nature and spirituality.

Actually, one should play a druid (or a monk for that matter) for whatever reason fancies him. There is no 'right' or 'wrong' in D&D.

Also, fluff is what you make of it. You can play an unarmed swordsage or a psychic warrior (Talashtora or not) and call it a 'monk'. It's got the same flavor and it doesn't suck mechanically.

[Lans]

I would like to say that 4 commoners with the Wild Cohort feat should beat a fire giant easily

4 Commoners 1 wild cohort, 3 fey heritage, 6 fey presence, 9 fey legacy should do it.

[TOZ]

Looks like everything that needs to be said has been said.

The reason monks suck to me is that the expectation does not match the reality.

You CAN build a monk that contributes in combat. But the way you do that is NOT the way you think when you first read the class.

Running a monk through Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil as your first character is not an experience I would wish on anyone.

[Lhurgyof]

Because I'm bored...warning, lots of number crunching:

Spoiler

Show

If the Fire Giant managed to full attack him, then we'll assume the Monk got a hit in first. With high Dex, he probably took weapon Finesse, so it's only a swing at +14 if he charged. with the +2 Amulet of Mighty Fists he can afford with what's left of his WBL. That's vs. AC23, roughly a 50% chance of hitting. On the monk's 1d10+1 damage (Average 6.5), he's inflicted average 3 damage. Only 139 to go.

But now it's the party's turn. While the monk is soaking the giant's hits, the fighter and rogue are wailing on it. The fighter charges, shrugging through the AoO. He's sporting Str 18 after level bonuses, 20 after an item of +2 Str, and can afford a +3 sword without hurting his defenses severely. That's a total attack bonus of +18, +20 on the charge. He's low-optimized, though, so he has Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword), along with WSpe and GWSpec for a total of +22. With a charge bonus, he has +24, and is flanking the giant for +26, so he'll Power Attack for 8. That gives him a 75% hit chance dealing 2d6+28 damaage (round off to 35),x.75, dealing 26 damage.

The Rogue goes now (realistically, he should have gone first, but he delayed to ensure flanking buddies). Dex 16 start, +2 level, +2 item, he's hitting at +16 with the flank and charge assuming WFin. 1d6 (shortsword) +5d6 SA, average 17.5 at a 60% hit chance, so another 10 damage.

Now it's the Monk's turn to unleash his full attack. He has no Charge bonus now, but instead flanks for the same +2. Each of his first 2 hits does average 3 damage again, then his iterative for 2 damage.

Cleric heals the meatsoak.

Giant's Turn: Thwacks the monk. Monk has taken 2 of the 4 full attacks necessary to kill him. Giant has 95 HP left.

Fighter's turn again. Striking at +24 this time, so he only PAs for 6 to make my math easier. Still a 75% hit ratio for 30-ish damage (-25%/iterative), so he deals 22 with his first attack, 15 with the second. Total of 37.

Rogue attacks, at +14/+9 after flank. Average 10 damage first hit, 7 damage second hit, total of 17.

Monk flails pointlessly, dealing another 8 damage overall.

Cleric heals.

Giant goes thwack, Monk will die next turn. Giant has 33 Hp left.

Assuming average rolls, the Fighter kills the giant this turn. Total cost to the party: 2 4th level spell slots.

Conclusion: yes, three unoptimized melee characters can defeat a Fire Giant in less than 4 rounds. One being a monk did not contribute as much as a non-Monk would have, but then that wasn't really the question posed. Also, the Rogue has a nonmagical weapon for some reason in my analysis, so realistically the odds go even further in the party's favor.

Amulet of mighty fists? What is this nonsense? Nobody should ever buy that, but instead grab a necklace of natural attacks...

[RaginChangeling]

Amulet of mighty fists? What is this nonsense? Nobody should ever buy that, but instead grab a necklace of natural attacks...

Unless you have more than 3 natural attacks. Enchanting a warshaper gets expensive with that

[Lhurgyof]

Unless you have more than 3 natural attacks. Enchanting a warshaper gets expensive with that

Ah, then I revise my previous statement to all Monks.

Edit: Ah, unoptimized characters? Well, damn. Nevermind then.

[Veyr]

Even with a multitude of natural attacks, having some decent special abilities on some of them is a lot better than having +3 (or whatever) to all of them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Best monk fix ever.

[Jeebers]

I don't like monks because they don't belong in the medieval mileu. They aren't even remotely European conceptually. Also, they do their best to be indestructible, but their offensive abilities aren't all that much. Makes for a boring PC.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Best monk fix ever.

Fixed that for you!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Fixed that for you!

You are wrong, my monk fix is better than some unarmed swordsage. Just read the class features, standard action flurry of blows, dance with the elements, and the option to replace slow fall with a blindsense (and later blindsight) ability.

[T.G. Oskar]

You are wrong, my monk fix is better than some unarmed swordsage. Just read the class features, standard action flurry of blows, dance with the elements, and the option to replace slow fall with a blindsense (and later blindsight) ability.

Uh...no. That doesn't mean you're not entitled to such opinion: I personally don't share it, nor do I share that unarmed Swordsage is the answer for a Monk because it's really limiting the worth of a Swordsage into something just to prove a point.

However, and this is important: just as much as you're entitled to your opinion as for "best Monk fix ever", so is everybody else. And some believe that the solution to all of the Monk's woes is unarmed Swordsage; just as the same as others believe that the solution to all of the Monk's woes is Tashalatora and Psionics, and those who band within homebrewing. I could personally say my Retooled Monk is the best fix ever, but certainly that would be my opinion, and not that of the GitP forums at earnest. If it really was the best, nobody would be bickering about "unarmed Swordsage = best Monk fix ever", or jiriku wouldn't have made his Monk with the idea of removing ki from it. Same if the consensus was that the unarmed Swordsage is the best Monk fix, or the rest of the opinions.

So, while this ember is out of the gas, let's drop a bit of water on it and extinguish it down. The thread has lasted for long; let's not make it degenerate into something else, alright?

Fun jabs are fun, tho.

[holywhippet]

I don't like monks because they don't belong in the medieval mileu. They aren't even remotely European conceptually. Also, they do their best to be indestructible, but their offensive abilities aren't all that much. Makes for a boring PC.

So? D&D isn't entirely European in setting. It does borrow heavily from European history and mythology but it has never claimed to be purely European.

I don't agree that monks do their best to be indestructable either. They have a lot of survival features like high saving throws, immunity to poisons and diseases etc, slow falling etc. But the most common way a character will be damaged is an attack roll vs. AC. Monks don't tend to have a great AC compared to other classes.

[UserShadow7989]

Since I can't number crunch for crap, I'll just give a long list of complaints on the monk:

• Can't use its two best abilities, Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement, in the same turn.
• d8 hit die and 3/4ths BAB gimps its ability to melee, and someone doing hit and run is less effective then someone who can stand and fight. In fact, they can't hit and run since Flurry needs a full action! Inability to use armor compounds the durability problem.
• Needs high Strength (make up for poor BAB and to support stunning fist/grappling/etc.), Dexterity (increase AC to compensate for lack of armor), Constitution (the low hit die requires high amounts of this), and Wisdom (class abilities and the Wis to AC bonus). Most classes only need two or three decent scores, but the monk needs four very good scores.
• Incompatibility between class skills and most armor prevents stat bonuses to compensate for the above. Does nothing to remove the need for ring of flight, etc.
• Unarmed Strike cannot be enchanted with effects like the main weapons of other classes, nor can it be used as a ranged option. The increasing damage is nice, but without size bonuses it's not enough to compensate for all the missing the monk's 3/4 BAB causes or the damage bonuses other classes can get from their weapon enhancements.
• Monk special weapons (if you want to go that route) don't receive the benefits of Ki-strike or the other unarmed strike bonuses.
• Movement bonus is an enchantment bonus, and therefore does not stack with any other bonuses.
• Ki Strikes helps a little with some forms of damage resistance, but doesn't help deal with ethreal creatures and the like.
• Most of their abilities are severely gimped versions of spells gained much earlier, and at less uses too. Slow Fall, for example, is a limited distance and needs a wall nearby. At level 1, a wizard can take Feather Fall and fall indefinitely without needing a wall. Even at level 20, the monk still needs a wall nearby. Almost all the worthwhile ones are one per day, with Quivering Palm being once per week with an effect casters of equal level can spam several times per day, and without the attack roll.
• Immunities come too late to be helpful, or are never helpful at all. Diseases are rarely used outside Mummy Rot, Poisons are non threats by that point, and supernatural diseases (which would be much more useful to block) are not guarded against.
• Wholeness of body is outstripped by a handful of potions or Cure Light Wounds, and does little to compensate for lower hit die.
• Spell Resistance is hardly an obstacle for spellcasters, as several spells aren't affected by it and there are metamagic feats like Greater Spell Penetration (in Core)/Assay Resistance (out of Core) that grant moderate to massive bonuses to rolls against SR. This does nothing to help against spells that trivialize touch AC like True Strike. Worst of all, you can't choose what it effects. Your ally's attempts to use Cure Critical Wounds to save you don't work.
• The capstone making you an outsider bars you from some of the most useful buffs you can get, such as Enlarge Person (massive reach boost, benefits grapple, upgrades the unarmed strike damage dice, and more), and the damage reduction is both low (5 or 10, iirc? Seriously?) and comes with an extremely common damage type as the exception (Magic. Count how many core monsters of that CR don't have a magic means of attack.)
• No trap sense and not having disarm device as a class skill hurts their effectiveness as a scout, and the lack of points to spare for Int prevents them from skill monkeying (except if going the Kung Fu Genius route). Charisma is almost always the dump stat, making them poor party faces. Their 'defenses' against magic, as noted above, do nothing against effects like Force Cage, etc., so they're not mage killers by a long-shot.
• None of the abilities compliment each other, excepting once per day effects like Dimension Door, which are (as stated repeatedly) once per day. They can't fill any significant party roles, and are lacking as back up for any of the main roles due to not being able to focus on one goal.

That's just off the top of my head. 15 major problems, without me looking up a guide or anything for information. The list of pros, bonus feats, scattered immunities/resistances, and a movement bonus, is much shorter.

Luckily, there's plenty of good fixes on the net. Even if you don't go the unarmed swordsage route, just about everyone has a monk fix. I think half the people in this thread (myself included) has one, of all different shapes and sizes.

[Lhurgyof]

Uh...no. That doesn't mean you're not entitled to such opinion: I personally don't share it, nor do I share that unarmed Swordsage is the answer for a Monk because it's really limiting the worth of a Swordsage into something just to prove a point.

However, and this is important: just as much as you're entitled to your opinion as for "best Monk fix ever", so is everybody else. And some believe that the solution to all of the Monk's woes is unarmed Swordsage; just as the same as others believe that the solution to all of the Monk's woes is Tashalatora and Psionics, and those who band within homebrewing. I could personally say my Retooled Monk is the best fix ever, but certainly that would be my opinion, and not that of the GitP forums at earnest. If it really was the best, nobody would be bickering about "unarmed Swordsage = best Monk fix ever", or jiriku wouldn't have made his Monk with the idea of removing ki from it. Same if the consensus was that the unarmed Swordsage is the best Monk fix, or the rest of the opinions.

So, while this ember is out of the gas, let's drop a bit of water on it and extinguish it down. The thread has lasted for long; let's not make it degenerate into something else, alright?

Fun jabs are fun, tho.

And some people just like to play monk as is.

[TOZ]

So, while this ember is out of the gas, let's drop a bit of water on it and extinguish it down. The thread has lasted for long; let's not make it degenerate into something else, alright?

Is it too late to throw my contender in the ring?

[Seerow]

Is it too late to throw my contender in the ring?

Wait you gave it Vancian spellcasting? wtf?

Couldn't even make it based of psionic power points?

[Lans]

As far as Mad for the monk is concerned, he can use feats to shore up the strength requirement. Either finesse or intuitive attack. Though he likely needs his feats to also cover his other deficiencies.

[TOZ]

Wait you gave it Vancian spellcasting? wtf?

Couldn't even make it based of psionic power points?

Not my design. You'd have to ask Kirth Gersen on the Paizo forums.

Personally, I don't find the flexibility of power points worth the added hassle of extra calculation. Vancian is a power point system already. You get X points for each level, and each spell only costs one point. Simple, really. Edit: Literally the only difference between this casting and power points is, you can't use lower level slots to cast higher level powers. I don't find that a bad thing.

Paizo discussion thread if you're interested.

[Gwendol]

For what it's worth, they are fun to play. I've had a hobgoblin up to level 6 (ECL 7), and now a goliath. The hobgoblin had better AC due to better DEX, but lacked in the damage dealing department (didn't take improved natural weapon, for some reason). The goliath is something of a glass cannon with his bad AC, but grappling, tripping, etc works fine.

[Gnaeus]

For what it's worth, they are fun to play. I've had a hobgoblin up to level 6 (ECL 7), and now a goliath. The hobgoblin had better AC due to better DEX, but lacked in the damage dealing department (didn't take improved natural weapon, for some reason). The goliath is something of a glass cannon with his bad AC, but grappling, tripping, etc works fine.

The problem with grapple/trip, etc emerges at high levels. After a certain level (depending on opti-fu and campaign) you wind up with 2 major types of enemies:

1. Things you can't grapple (too big/strong, casters with freedom of movement, move or swift teleport, etc)

2. Mooks who are a waste of time to grapple or trip.

Most enemies at high level fall into one of those two categories. This can be avoided with a lot of cheese (A totemist or buffed melee druid can grapple most things that don't have specific anti-grapple tricks), but makes it hard for high level monks.

[JonestheSpy]

You know, one of the things that I wonder about while perusing this thread is why so few people don't just fix the monk. I mean, it's really easy - myself and others have pointed out that you can make just a few easy tweaks and suddenly the class is eminently playable. I wonder why so many folks, ones who seem to frequent the forums enough to have seen these fixes someplace or other, still seem to think the only real options are play it as written, trick it out with a bunch of splatbook stuff, or use a totally different class and call it a monk.

[Gnaeus]

You know, one of the things that I wonder about while perusing this thread is why so few people don't just fix the monk. I mean, it's really easy - myself and others have pointed out that you can make just a few easy tweaks and suddenly the class is eminently playable. I wonder why so many folks, ones who seem to frequent the forums enough to have seen these fixes someplace or other, still seem to think the only real options are play it as written, trick it out with a bunch of splatbook stuff, or use a totally different class and call it a monk.

Mostly the work involved. Some people don't like homebrewing, and some of the monk-like classes are very solid. If I were running a game, and someone wanted to play a monk, assuming that the party was too high op for that to be viable, I would suggest Talashtora, Unarmed SS and partial Gestalt before I started tinkering with Monk. If they insisted, I would shop for fixes and figure out what would work in my game, but if they just want to be a martial artist, ToB works great.

[UserShadow7989]

You know, one of the things that I wonder about while perusing this thread is why so few people don't just fix the monk. I mean, it's really easy - myself and others have pointed out that you can make just a few easy tweaks and suddenly the class is eminently playable. I wonder why so many folks, ones who seem to frequent the forums enough to have seen these fixes someplace or other, still seem to think the only real options are play it as written, trick it out with a bunch of splatbook stuff, or use a totally different class and call it a monk.

It's not that there's a lack of readily available fixes, so much as complaints that you have to find a fix from the millions of possibilities, judge if it's balanced or not, and use it instead of just taking the one out of core and using it.

It IS surprisingly easy to fix a good chunk of flaws, though. Buff the monk's BAB, let it replace its Strength modifier with its Wisdom modifier on relevant rolls, change the 1/day and 1/week abilities to Wis modifier/day abilities, give it the ability to flurry and move in the same turn, make it immune to more things and grant the immunities quicker, bump it's hit die up to d10 or buff wholeness of body to an actually useful amount of healing, and allow them to choose what spells their SR affects.

That's the majority of minor-moderate flaws in one go, without actually homebrewing any abilities. Since everyone is advertising their fixes/favorite fixes now, let me just drop off my own: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...16#post8550116

Maybe there should be a sticky with all the Monk fixes, called 'I'll show you mine and you show me yours' or something...

[Gwendol]

The problem with grapple/trip, etc emerges at high levels. After a certain level (depending on opti-fu and campaign) you wind up with 2 major types of enemies:

1. Things you can't grapple (too big/strong, casters with freedom of movement, move or swift teleport, etc)

2. Mooks who are a waste of time to grapple or trip.

Most enemies at high level fall into one of those two categories. This can be avoided with a lot of cheese (A totemist or buffed melee druid can grapple most things that don't have specific anti-grapple tricks), but makes it hard for high level monks.

Thus a powerful build (+4 to relevant STR checks), and trying not to play a one-trick pony. But yes, it will get a lot more challenging at higher levels.

[Gnaeus]

If you are fighting a huge, high str monster, +4 isn't going to do it.

If you are fighting a caster type, he will teleport or freedom of action away. That covers most of what you will fight at high level that isn't a mook.

[Gwendol]

You mean something like a Fire Giant? Right. Can't grapple them.

[Gnaeus]

At 10th level, a well built monk can still do it. Why not try a Storm Giant, 3 levels later? + 36 grapple, so
Monk 13=+9 BaB, +12 Powerful Build/Imp Grapple/Enlarge Person, +10 for 30 Strength and you are still behind by 5. Can you get to a 40 strength to have a 50% chance? Maybe, if you work hard enough. Whoops. Nope. Continuous freedom of movement.

Try looking at the CR 15-20 monsters. Remove everything with At Will teleport, casting, or impossible grapple #s like Mr. T's +81. Remove PCs types with class levels, because they either have casting, ring of free action, anklet of translocation, or full bab and higher strength than a typical monk. Whats left?

[Optimator]

A level of Cobra Strike Monk can be a real good dip for prospective Master of Nines.

[Veyr]

You know, one of the things that I wonder about while perusing this thread is why so few people don't just fix the monk. I mean, it's really easy - myself and others have pointed out that you can make just a few easy tweaks and suddenly the class is eminently playable. I wonder why so many folks, ones who seem to frequent the forums enough to have seen these fixes someplace or other, still seem to think the only real options are play it as written, trick it out with a bunch of splatbook stuff, or use a totally different class and call it a monk.

The reason why people don't "just fix the monk" is because, unlike your assertions, that's a rather difficult thing to do. Because no, it's not just a matter of a few simple changes to the Core Monk class.

Much simpler, and much better, to simply used Wizards' own fixes, in the form of either Tashalatora or Swordsage. I have never read any homebrewed Monk fix (despite enjoying homebrew in general), because honestly that strikes me as a monumental waste of my time: Tashalatora and Swordsage already give me just about everything I want out of a Monk, and it is ever so tedious to slog through someone's opinions on what a Monk should or shouldn't be.