LGBTAitp - Part Thirteen

[Coidzor]

Thankfully most decent people avoid that kind of conversation except in rather specific contexts due to it being outside the realm of polite conversation, so it's not really something to commonly run into unless interacting with more specific circles that are both sufficiently crass and ignorant to bring it up with someone they were not close to.

And if this isn't the case, I'm very sorry.

[Asta Kask]

While my ex-girlfriend acknowledged that bisexuality is a valid orientation (and is bisexual herself) she had a strange perspective on the subject, believing that all bisexuals eventually have to choose between being gay or straight at some point. I still do not know how she could have arrived at such a conclusion.

While it is true that bisexual people may marry like everyone else, being in a marriage with a woman does not mean that attraction to men disappears or anything.

Does she have any empirical evidence for this? I know people where bisexuality has been a stop on the way to homosexuality but claiming it is the norm? That requires data, not anecdotes.

[rayne_dragon]

Edit: New SMBC-Theater is relevant to our interests.

Were-gay? That's awesome. I want to be were-gay now so I take advantage of gay powers on the night of the full moon. I could really use some of that magic gay-gold.

I do wonder if there is some degree of negotiability to sexuality, though. You're always attracted to what you're attracted to, but can other factors increase attraction? Especially towards someone you'd normally not be attracted to?

[Asta Kask]

Absolutely. I'm straight, except for pictures of a young Marlon Brando.

[golentan]

Hahaha.

I know my sexuality is at least slightly negotiable. Weirdly it seems to be largely related to people I fall for permanently modifying my preferences. As a kid I'd spend hours flirting with blond women. Then I fell for a gal with raven hair and now I'm all about the brunettes. In middle school my best guy friend had glasses and soon after I developed a glasses fetish (though I didn't connect the two until I realized I was bi years later). I fell for a short, androgynous woman in college and now guess what my type is (it wasn't before). The list goes on.

[Droodle]

I would argue that the primary reason it is often argued that you ultimately have to "pick one" stems largely from the fact that most people eventually get around to settling down with one person (or try to, over and over again). This argument of course ignores the fact that your sexual orientation does not shift based on who you happen to be shacking up with at any given moment.

When I married, who I find attractive did not change. I'm still attracted to other women. Why would it be any different for a bi-sexual man or woman who settles down with someone? Orientation isn't about who you are having sex with right now. Using that logic, I can also conclude Priests, Nuns, and virgins have no sexual orientation! Orientation is about who you are, well, oriented to find attractive.

[rayne_dragon]

I would argue that the primary reason it is often argued that you ultimately have to "pick one" stems largely from the fact that most people eventually get around to settling down with one person (or try to, over and over again). This argument of course ignores the fact that your sexual orientation does not shift based on who you happen to be shacking up with at any given moment.

When I married, who I find attractive did not change. I'm still attracted to other women. Why would it be any different for a bi-sexual man or woman who settles down with someone? Orientation isn't about who you are having sex with right now. Using that logic, I can also conclude Priests, Nuns, and virgins have no sexual orientation! Orientation is about who you are, well, oriented to find attractive.

This sort of reasoning also seems to be why there's a myth that bisexuals can't be monogamous. The idea that a bisexual has to 'settle down' with at least two individuals to maintain their orientation is a little absurd. I wonder how many peope a pansexual would have to settle down with to maintain their orientation....

[Worira]

All of them.

[Asta Kask]

It seems difficult for people to understand the difference between current attraction and potential attraction.

[golentan]

Also between attraction and normal action.

[Murdim]

I do wonder if there is some degree of negotiability to sexuality, though. You're always attracted to what you're attracted to, but can other factors increase attraction? Especially towards someone you'd normally not be attracted to?

One factor that is too often ignored (except maybe in a precious few asexual communities) it that "sexual attraction" means several different things. At the same time. And those meanings are used interchangeably, when actually they are not.

Take for example a man who is physically aroused by attractive women (and women only), but who realises that he's much more into men when it comes down to actual sex. He could consider himself gay, since he isn't actually interested in women sexually, even if he finds them much nicer to look at than men. Or he could be a "straight man who has sex with men", since he's "wired" into being attracted to women. And there's no reason he couldn't call himself bisexual, either.

That's three possible, different, apparently contradicting orientations for one single person, and we're not even taking fluidity into account yet. Or romantic attraction. Or sexual fantasies. Or attraction to personalities. Or...

As a demisexual person, Musashi has something to say on the subject, I'm pretty sure of it.

[DwarvenExodus]

All of them.

Well, that makes everything a hell of a lot simpler!

[Qaera]

All of them.

ImOkWithThis.png

[Danne]

Edit: New SMBC-Theater is relevant to our interests.

Bwaha, that's funny, that's for sharing.

Something that made me happy: I was channel surfing the other day while waiting for Mum to wrap some stuff up so we could watch a movie, and I came across that "What Would You Do?" show? The bit I saw featured a lesbian couple with their kids in a restaurant in Texas, with their waitress being homophobic and all "save the children" and stuff. I saw two scenarios, and in both cases, a man (different one each time) came over and very politely told the waitress where she could stuff it. The couple, kids, and waitress were actors, but not the nice gentlemen who stood up for them.

[npc revolution]

Yeah so I went to a gay pride festival in my city yesterday. The guys I was with don't know I'm bi so I was undercover. T'was a very good day out and it felt nice to be among people who didn't give a care who I liked.

Although I was surprised at the number of stereotypes that were out in force.

[golentan]

Bwaha, that's funny, that's for sharing.

Something that made me happy: I was channel surfing the other day while waiting for Mum to wrap some stuff up so we could watch a movie, and I came across that "What Would You Do?" show? The bit I saw featured a lesbian couple with their kids in a restaurant in Texas, with their waitress being homophobic and all "save the children" and stuff. I saw two scenarios, and in both cases, a man (different one each time) came over and very politely told the waitress where she could stuff it. The couple, kids, and waitress were actors, but not the nice gentlemen who stood up for them.

I saw one like that, but it made me angry. There were two people who stood up at the end of the video I saw, but there was an awful lot more silence and even some support for the waiter before then.

[Mono Vertigo]

As a demisexual person, Musashi has something to say on the subject, I'm pretty sure of it.

Thanks for the invitation to speak up
In effect, I only have sex, and want to have sex with my boyfriend. Our emotional bond is a lot more important than the intercourses. That's what makes me demisexual.
However, I have always been mentally prepared to the possibility I could be bi (or, as some could argue, pansexual), because I had nothing against the possibility to date anyone of any sex/gender. Well, nothing but my lack of libido, of course.
Additionally, in effect, I'm more on the straight end of the spectrum than bi, let alone lesbian. Women leave me completely apathetic and have no particular interest in looking at them. Men, on the other hand, do trigger a reaction of interest in my mind along the lines of "oooh, that's very pretty to look at", but wouldn't actually even dream of having sex with them.


I'd try and give a personal definition of sexual attraction... but it would be a terribly flawed one, because, to me, sex is tightly intertwined with love. I know and understand many people, if not most, (want to/can) have sex without feeling any love for the other person. But I can't possibly even imagine having sex with someone, and enjoying it, without also feeling something with that someone. My definition would be very, very personal, and irrelevant for the rest of the population. Except, maybe, other demisexuals.
Also, yes, fluidity and all that (though I'm tempted to call anyone who's had intercourses with men, women, and others at very different moments of their life, bi/pansexual).


Disclaimer, because I'm starting to see accusing claims popping up over other parts of the Internet: just because I'm asexual/demisexual doesn't make me better in any way than anyone. I don't "love the personality, not the genitals" nor accuse anyone to, I just happen to have much fewer potential partners than about anyone, which is nor a good, nor a bad thing.

[Mina Kobold]

Is it weird that all I think when I read this discussion is where "KITTY!" fits here? And why I can't think of a word that means "Finding certain non-humans appealing to look at despite having neither sexual nor romantic interest or attraction to them"?

All of them.

And now I wish people would understand what panromantic means, I could hug everybody! O_O

[golentan]

This is something worth a few smiles. Especially if you consider that some people might actually think like that.

HEY! I already linked to that.

[Blisstake]

Not particularly funny, but I still liked it

[The Rose Dragon]

I don't know, I'm usually a fan of SMBC Theater, but this one was... meh. Maybe because I'm straight, but the only line that felt really funny was the last one about sodomy and cocktails.

[Murdim]

I'd try and give a personal definition of sexual attraction... but it would be a terribly flawed one, because, to me, sex is tightly intertwined with love. I know and understand many people, if not most, (want to/can) have sex without feeling any love for the other person. But I can't possibly even imagine having sex with someone, and enjoying it, without also feeling something with that someone. My definition would be very, very personal, and irrelevant for the rest of the population. Except, maybe, other demisexuals.

Mmmh... not necessarily. For you, sexual attraction apparently has everything to do with who you want to have sex with. You are demisexual because you're not interested in having sex with people you're not in love with. Am I right?

Men, on the other hand, do trigger a reaction of interest in my mind along the lines of "oooh, that's very pretty to look at", but wouldn't actually even dream of having sex with them.

Now I am curious. Do you feel about attractive men the same way Keveak (or anyone else) feels about cute baby animals ; or is there a more visceral and specific kind of interest going on there, that simply doesn't involve a desire to hump the poor fellow's leg? I know this is a pretty indiscreet question, and I can't hold it against you I you prefer not to answer, but I have to ask... FOR SCIENCE!

HEY! I already linked to that.

Bad golentan! You scared the kitty!

[Mono Vertigo]

Mmmh... not necessarily. For you, sexual attraction apparently has everything to do with who you want to have sex with. You are demisexual because you're not interested in having sex with people you're not in love with. Am I right?

Yep.
Or if you want to get complicated, I could also be pansexual. A very, very picky pansexual who absolutely doesn't want to have sex without feelings, and who doesn't believe in love at first sight. Now I'm just being a smart**s though.

Now I am curious. Do you feel about attractive men the same way Keveak (or anyone else) feels about cute baby animals ; or is there a more visceral and specific kind of interest going on there, that simply doesn't involve a desire to hump the poor fellow's leg? I know this is a pretty indiscreet question, and I can't hold it against you I you prefer not to answer, but I have to ask... FOR SCIENCE!

It's fine to ask, the worst reaction you risk is my polite refusal to answer.
Huh, definitely not the former.
It's hard to explain, but it's more of a guts reaction, along the lines of "oh, handsome! I'd tap that!... maybe... if I had an average libido" (of course, depends of the guy, that goes without saying; just because you're [insert orientation here] doesn't mean you find all members of your preferred sex/gender attractive). I know it doesn't make much sense, but I guess it's like being [insert orientation that isn't pansexuality], and admitting that, yes, [insert famous/fictional person not fitting your sexual preferences] is hot, and you're [straight/gay/lesbian/whatever] for that person... except not literally. At least, I suppose most people who say that don't mean it literally.
Maybe it's easier to understand when compared to my reaction when I see women. It's complete apathy. I may acknowledge they are esthetically pleasant, but nothing more. Found absolutely no exception to that.
On a scale of 1 to ten on which arousal could be measured, let's say empirical experience places women at 0, men at 1-2, and my boyfriend in the higher half, and that's where I'm not giving extra details.

[golentan]

Okay, so can I get your guy's input?

At work, one of the managers is one of my college dormmates from back when. He's a nice funny guy, and we get along well. I like hanging out with him. I used to have a crush on him in school. I knew him back when he was on the all girls floor of our dorm.

The thing is, at work I keep finding myself almost using the wrong pronouns. I keep pausing before saying my habitual honorific, to get "sir" instead of "ma'am." I always hesitate before pronouns. The thing is, I just always think of "him" as the "her" I met before and it worries me. I don't want to come off as a jerk.

The thing is, in perfect honesty I think that the whole thing is kind of wonky as an idea. It's not as weird as some stuff people pull that has a lot more widespread acceptance (I'm looking at you currency. @_@), but the fact that it's an uncommon thing makes it that much harder to swallow as just something that I have to accept*. And I don't want to be that guy. I don't want to profess my belief in transsexual rights while being quietly unsupportive out of the other side of my face. But no matter how I try I just don't feel comfortable with it in practice when I'm actually spending time with him, even though I feel positive about every other aspect of our interactions.

Am I just a jerk?

*that doesn't sound right, but I'm tired and struggling with wording.

[rayne_dragon]

I don't think it definitively means your a jerk. It's just that you're used to things being one way and it's taking you a fair bit of effort to adjust. I've been on both sides of the pronoun useage switching thingie and I think that as long as you're making an effort to use the correct pronoun that you're doing alright. If you're not exactly comfortable with the new pronoun, then it's kind of like being uncomfortable with someone who's name has changed - it can be understandable that it isn't exactly easy to get used to the change.

Hopefully it gets easier with time, but it's not like you can control how you feel.

[Serpentine]

Hey guys, I have something important and revolutionary to show you!

Spoiler

Show

[Mono Vertigo]

Seconding that. It's okay not to instantly adapt and use the right pronoun. It's much more important that you're willing to do the effort and use the right words. While it doesn't change his personality, it is still a big change to something humans generally think of as an important part of one's identity.
And it's also okay to be uneasy about the whole deal at first. In a way, it would be somewhat worrying if you instantly adapted to every change in your life. So, like rayne_dragon said, you can't control how you feel, it will almost certainly get better over time, and that alone doesn't make you a jerk.


EDIT: ... *blinks*

[cycoris]

...the first second thing I noticed was how much I dislike the bedspread, and thus answered "ugh". Does this mean I don't like girls?



ION: I've been grumpy and envious all day because a good friend of mine has language and a fairly widely recognised lexicon with which to describe his sexuality and I don't think I do.

[The Rose Dragon]

Hey guys, I have something important and revolutionary to show you!

Spoiler

Show

It took me a while to get it, to be honest.

[Lix Lorn]

Is that girl alright? That corset looks really really tight...