When you play the Game of Thrones...

[Seerow]

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It was never outright stated (well, maybe there were a couple imputations) but I think GRRM did leave several hints and later confirmed it outside of the books.

Renly's Kingsguard is the Rainbow Guard. When Jaime threatens Loras he says something along the lines of "I'll stick my sword somewhere even Renly never managed to reach". Cercei when refering to Loras's sister's apparent lack of sexual desire wonders if she takes after her brother.

There's probably a few other references I'm not remembering offhand. It's not as blatantly obvious as seeing Renly get a shave and a blowjob (which vaguely reminds me of steak and a blowjob day...), but it is there.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't remember that being in the book...

It's there. I particularly liked the bit where Renly invites Loras to his tent to "pray" before battle. Beyond that, Seerow's got most of the other insinuations. In the book, it is treated with the kind of taboo that would apply in the era, and since neither character is PoV, we never get to be inside their tent when they're at it.

Re: The fight, I'm with TheSummoner. It was an unequal fight, in which Ned was out to kill, and Jaime only to capture. Jaime was just messing with Ned.

Grey Wolf

[Zmflavius]

Renly's Kingsguard is the Rainbow Guard.

Though, to be fair, GRRM claims that this was not intentional, and was merely to represent Renly's love of bright colors.

[hamlet]

It was never outright stated (well, maybe there were a couple imputations) but I think GRRM did leave several hints and later confirmed it outside of the books.

He did.

The two did "a lot of praying" together.

I'm not kidding, that's how it's phrased in the books. It's very quietly implied and if you're not paying far too much attention to it, you'll miss it.

However, it's not crucial to the plot (as of yet), but it explains a few things later on that might otherwise seem out of place.

EDIT: It also adds a bit of a twist to what is, at the moment, believed to be silly assertions on the part of a certain character.

[Cristo Meyers]

Well, I'm at least glad I stuck through the slow start to the series. Things are picking up quite nicely.

I liked the duels, though Sandor/Gregor seemed a bit...clunky, I guess? But then, they're two pretty big guys. Sandor's finish made up for it, though.

Ned/Jaime was superb. Poor Jory, though. It's like a cursed name in GRRM fiction or fiction that takes from Game of Thrones. You're just gonna get stabbed.

I'm starting to wonder if the show can do an infodump without making it part of a sex scene, though. Viserys, Theon, Renly...it's like they're apologizing for dropping a bunch of setting info on you or something.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I liked the duels, though Sandor/Gregor seemed a bit...clunky, I guess? But then, they're two pretty big guys. Sandor's finish made up for it, though.

They're both in jousting armour: clunky is what it should look like.

I'm starting to wonder if the show can do an infodump without making it part of a sex scene, though. Viserys, Theon, Renly...it's like they're apologizing for dropping a bunch of setting info on you or something.

There tends to be two broad groups watching this kind of tv series, the one in for the guide-dang-it amount of politics and backstory, and the ones in for the eye candy. I'm very impressed that they've found a way to please both in these scenes.

Also, I have to say that I'm liking Arya-actress more and more. She is no longer as wooden as in the first couple of episodes.

Edit: Re: best swordsman, I still say Syrio is your man. The narrower duel swords were superior to broadswords when it came to duels.

Grey Wolf

[DomaDoma]

I'm starting to wonder if the show can do an infodump without making it part of a sex scene, though. Viserys, Theon, Renly...it's like they're apologizing for dropping a bunch of setting info on you or something.

Man, and here I thought I could fast-forward like I did for the first couple of episodes of Rome.

[Cristo Meyers]

They're both in jousting armour: clunky is what it should look like.

True, but not quite what I meant. I'm trying to find the right way to describe it.

There are choreographed fights where it's easier to suspend the knowledge that there's choreography than others. Sandor/Gregor wasn't one of them.

[Dienekes]

Edit: Re: best swordsman, I still say Syrio is your man. The narrower duel swords were superior to broadswords when it came to duels.

Bugger doesn't wear armor. Armor is superior to not armor when it comes to, well, everything.

[VanBuren]

Bugger doesn't wear armor. Armor is superior to not armor when it comes to, well, everything.

I've always been a fan of the "Economy of movement" approach, where the key is to make sure that, wherever the enemy is striking, you make sure you're not there.

[TheSummoner]

Armor only matters if you get hit =P

[Dienekes]

I've always been a fan of the "Economy of movement" approach, where the key is to make sure that, wherever the enemy is striking, you make sure you're not there.

Armor only matters if you get hit =P

Everyone eventually makes a mistake, no matter how good they are.

Armor makes sure you're still alive to make a second one.

[VanBuren]

Everyone eventually makes a mistake, no matter how good they are.

Tell that to Cohen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bugger doesn't wear armor. Armor is superior to not armor when it comes to, well, everything.

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As far as I know, no, which is why it was abandoned for duels. Martin did a very painful demonstration of uselessness of armor in the Bronn/Knight of the Vale duel in the books. A narrow sword easily finds his way into armor, and a guy in armor simply doesn't have the ability to fight someone that can outrun him with a brisk walk.

Now, it is true that the introduction of firearms also helped speed the deprecation of armor, but long before Spain introduced combined weapons formation (the Tercios), armor had been on the way out because it was simply too unwieldy. In a battlefield, you put up with it because it protects from the chaos, but in a duel, the lack of mobility will kill you.

Grey Wolf

[Dienekes]

Stuff on Bronn in armor.

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As far as I know, no, which is why it was abandoned for duels. Martin did a very painful demonstration of uselessness of armor in the Bronn/Knight of the vale duel in the books. A narrow sword easily finds his way into armor, and a guy in armor simply doesn't have the ability to fight someone that can outrun him with a brisk walk.

They were both wearing armor and interestingly Bronn's armor is more cumbersome than Vardis's was. Plate is evenly distributed to allow you to move fairly quickly and precisely. Mail is all on the shoulders and arms and directly hinders movement. Bronn won because he was a better younger fighter.

And it wasn't abandoned for duels until duels stopped being government regulated at which times people fought on the streets. Generally you don't walk around the town dressed in armor all the time. Also, it'd be very expensive.

Now, it is true that the introduction of firearms also helped speed the deprecation of armor, but long before Spain introduced combined weapons formation (the Tercios), armor had been on the way out because it was simply too unwieldy. In a battlefield, you put up with it because it protects from the chaos, but in a duel, the lack of mobility will kill you.

This debate has been going on in the Real World Weapons and Armor section every couple of weeks. The general consensus seems to be that armor was still useful with firearms until it became too expensive. Even then it was often used in pike lines as it still could save you.

Heavy armor we see in the show was actually developed at the same time as firearms.

It also helps that GRRM has admitted all he knows about weapons and armor he's learned from DnD. This is pretty evident in the books if you look, with such claims that a sword sharpened to a razor point is a good thing, and apparently it's possible to cleave right through metal. And some of the helmet designs are ridiculous.

[hamlet]

As far as I know, no, which is why it was abandoned for duels. Martin did a very painful demonstration of uselessness of armor in the Bronn/Knight of the vale duel in the books. A narrow sword easily finds his way into armor, and a guy in armor simply doesn't have the ability to fight someone that can outrun him with a brisk walk.

Grey Wolf

A gross oversimplification of what happened in that scene.

GRRM is very much on record as saying that armor is VERY important and that it often, but not always, trumps fast movement.

The reason Bronn won is not because fast movement is inherently better than heavy armor, but that he played his opponent's biases and preconceptions against him. You'll notice that Bronn does wear armor at most other times.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They were both wearing armor and interestingly Bronn's armor is more cumbersome than Vardis's was. Plate is evenly distributed to allow you to move fairly quickly and precisely. Mail is all on the shoulders and arms and directly hinders movement. Bronn won because he was a better younger fighter.

I'll concede that, I didn't remember he was in mail (I thought he was in leathers), but I still say that in the books

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Syrio, who in his first attack on the white guard manages to hit, with a lead-wood sword, the eye slit of a fully armored fighter is going to stick his sword into the eyes of whatever enemy he faces before the other can even blink

Grey Wolf

[Dienekes]

I'll concede that, I didn't remember he was in mail (I thought he was in leathers), but I still say that in the books

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Syrio, who in his first attack on the white guard manages to hit, with a lead-wood sword, the eye slit of a fully armored fighter is going to stick his sword into the eyes of whatever enemy he faces before the other can even blink

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We'll see how they do it in the show, but what the guards were wearing is kind of in question. These weren't armored knights, they probably had more open faced helmets and were wearing mail. Probably. Those funky helmets they've got in the show now would probably be really good at deflecting such a shot which, if they are closed during the fight, would make Syrios precision exceptional.

You'll also notice that when he did face a fully armored knight he was only able to land blows that barely affected him at all. And this was with a heavy stick which would probably have way more impact than a cut-and-thrust sword would. He was not able to land a blow against his open eyes.

Also, the Bronn conversation is pretty spoiler worthy so I'm retroactively spoilering my sections and ask that you do as well.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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You'll also notice that when he did face a fully armored knight he was only able to land blows that barely affected him at all. And this was with a heavy stick which would probably have way more impact than a cut-and-thrust sword would. He was not able to land a blow against his open eyes.

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But that was my point, according to GRRM he did hit every weak spot in the fully armored target (under the arms, helmet slit, etc.) before the knight could respond. If he had been wielding a real sword rather than a training sword, it is pretty much spelled out that the knight would've been dead because it would've fit/cut through those weak points.

Now, we can discuss wether this is even possible in RL, and if GRRM knows what he's talking about, but when it comes to comparing his literary creations in his non-RL world, I'm still with Syrio being the best swordsman-as-described

Grey Wolf

[Dienekes]

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But that was my point, according to GRRM he did hit every weak spot in the fully armored target (under the arms, helmet slit, etc.) before the knight could respond. If he had been wielding a real sword rather than a training sword, it is pretty much spelled out that the knight would've been dead because it would've fit/cut through those weak points.

Now, we can discuss wether this is even possible in RL, and if GRRM knows what he's talking about, but when it comes to comparing his literary creations in his non-RL world, I'm still with Syrio being the best swordsman-as-described

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Don't have my book with me, but does he hit the eye slit of the knight? I vaguely remember him doing that to one of the guards, but against the knight he seemed pretty ineffective.

And it's hard to compare, I think if Syrio fought against Jaime both in their equipment and using their style I'd definitely place my money on the knight in armor. If they were both fighting without armor, I'd give it to Syrio. It's not that he's better than Jaime, but he trains to fight without armor and Jaime trains to fight in it. A dull bastard sword can still cut through a body rather easily, a rapier or cut-and-thrust blade would be rather useless against armor except for a few key points. Since these key points are the same points for every weapon I'm willing to bet Jaime knows how to defend those bits.
Sure Syrio may get a hit here or there, he's an expert swordsman, but he's fighting at a severe disadvantage.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

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Don't have my book with me, but does he hit the eye slit of the knight? I vaguely remember him doing that to one of the guards, but against the knight he seemed pretty ineffective.

And it's hard to compare, I think if Syrio fought against Jaime both in their equipment and using their style I'd definitely place my money on the knight in armor. If they were both fighting without armor, I'd give it to Syrio. It's not that he's better than Jaime, but he trains to fight without armor and Jaime trains to fight in it. A dull bastard sword can still cut through a body rather easily, a rapier or cut-and-thrust blade would be rather useless against armor except for a few key points. Since these key points are the same points for every weapon I'm willing to bet Jaime knows how to defend those bits.
Sure Syrio may get a hit here or there, he's an expert swordsman, but he's fighting at a severe disadvantage.

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To quote the book: "Syrio danced away from his cut, his stick a blur. In a hearbeat, he had bounced blows off the knight's temple, elbow, and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet, and gorget."

Syrio doesn't get other chances, but notice he struck three times in a second. That said, he didn't hit the eye slit as I thought I remembered, so I was wrong. Dang.

Grey Wolf

[Knaight]

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To quote the book: "Syrio danced away from his cut, his stick a blur. In a hearbeat, he had bounced blows off the knight's temple, elbow, and throat, the wood ringing against the metal of helm, gauntlet, and gorget."

Syrio doesn't get other chances, but notice he struck three times in a second. That said, he didn't hit the eye slit as I thought I remembered, so I was wrong. Dang.

Grey Wolf

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Its worth noting that the scene basically states that Syrio died due to the knights armor, while also showing just how talented Syrio was, its not that being unarmored is better than being armored, its that being Syrio is much better than being a couple of relatively untrained guardsmen.

[Da'Shain]

Just got to see it. Loved this episode. The amount of new scenes is keeping things fresh even despite my having read the books several times. The Renly/Loras scene seemed a bit premature (Robert's not dead nor does he show any signs of dying soon) but I enjoyed the twist on Loras' character. And the scene between Robert and Cersei was just so sad. I still feel like they're changing Cersei a fair amount, but that scene is almost enough to make me not care.

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I will say, though, that I disliked the way they handled the confrontation between Ned and Jaime (an opinion that I'm sure is in the minority). Perhaps this is just because I have a very clear image of the scene in my head from the books, and they followed virtually none of it. While it's clear in the show that Ned does not take the order to kill his men lightly, in the books it's at once clear that Jaime has found the best way to hurt him in this situation, with Ned actually losing his cool for (I think) the first time in the book and screaming for his men to get away. Furthermore, the scene takes place at night, in the rain, with Jaime and his men surrounding Ned on the road before he even notices, while in the show it takes place in broad daylight, and Ned is not surrounded, making him and his men quite frankly look like idiots for not retreating back into the building with defensible entrances behind them. Then too there is the required Duel of the Nemeses that I knew they had to be building up to in the show, but again, to be honest I feel as though Ned being injured while actually trying to save his men is a far better way to end the scene than single combat happening ... just because.

That said, I love Sean Bean and Jaime's actor, they're capturing the characters near-perfectly. And not that it's likely to come into play at all (unless they add another fight scene somewhere), but to me Ned and Jaime did seem relatively evenly matched, with Jaime possessing a slight edge but it being possible for the fight to go either way. Their expressions don't reflect the ease or difficulty they're having; Jaime is fighting in his accustomed way (i.e. cocky, taunting, enjoying himself) and Ned is more serious and has just lost his men, thus he looks far more put-upon. But Jaime launches just as many attacks against Ned, and Ned is able to defend himself against them just as well.

In the books I'd have said that if it ever came to single combat, Jaime would utterly smoke Ned, who's likely competent and perhaps even skilled but not a famed fighter in any sense. But in the show it seems to me that they're set up as relative equals, which again makes sense considering how much they're playing up Ned's warrior qualities.

[valadil]

I guess I'm the only one who didn't like the combats. I thought they came off as cartoony juxtaposed with crazy gore. The fights just came across as comedic to me. Maybe I've been spending too much time looking at the links in the real world weapons and armor thread. Or maybe I should adjust my expectations since this is an HBO show rather than a Hollywood movie (not that I think Hollywood does accurate fight scenes, but they're usually a bit better than this).

I did like that Ned and Jaime dueled. They'd been building that up for a while. There was no other way for that to play out. I never got the sense that they were evenly matched, but I had preexisting bias from the books.

The longer dialogs added a lot for me. Robert/Cersei and Varys/Littlefinger were gold. I've always felt that the strength of this series is that it's not about fantasy but about people interacting with and manipulating each other. The first few episodes showed too much and didn't have enough time for interaction like this. Leaving out the Dothraki and Night's Watch for an episode gave them a lot of time to build up everything else.

Greatjon I don't remember ever being described with particular swordfighting ability, or Garlan for that matter. Maybe my memory's just rusty though.

Garlan is explicitly mentioned as being the better swordsman than Loras. It's only mentioned once or twice though and not driven into your head. At any rate, I think that makes Garlan a contender.

One of the Greyjoys also wanted a duel with Jaime. I'm not sure if that means he's actually better or if he just wanted to see how he measured up. I think it's Victarion but I'm not positive.

[The Glyphstone]

Sigh. More characters to nickname.

Crazy Lady with the Creepy Kid is apparently Cat's sister, and if I heard right, the widow of the dead ex-Hand. Poor Tyrion - what was written on the wall of his "cell" behind him?

Flower Knight (L-something) is in a relationship with the King's brother, and trying to convince him to...plan a coup or something?

Was that the Spider creeping around the dungeons plotting to kill Ned? If it was, why would he then warn Ned about the poison?

Oh, and Gregor is evidently a very poor loser. Interesting that Robert didn't shout him down when he was trying to murder Flower Knight, only when Ned was in the way.

Still no Syrio, sad.

[valadil]

Sigh. More characters to nickname.

Crazy Lady with the Creepy Kid is apparently Cat's sister, and if I heard right, the widow of the dead ex-Hand. Poor Tyrion - what was written on the wall of his "cell" behind him?

Lysa. Her son was Robert in the books, but has been renamed Robin (which isn't a huge stretch as Sweetrobin was a nickname of his) to remove confusion with Robert Baratheon and Robb Stark.

Flower Knight (L-something) is in a relationship with the King's brother, and trying to convince him to...plan a coup or something?

Loras Tyrell,Knight of Flowers.

[hamlet]

Sigh. More characters to nickname.

Crazy Lady with the Creepy Kid is apparently Cat's sister, and if I heard right, the widow of the dead ex-Hand. Poor Tyrion - what was written on the wall of his "cell" behind him?

Lysa Arryn nee Tully. Catelyn's sister. Was once considered to be as beautiful as Catelyn, though that's kinda tough to see in the show since they've gone for "Hollywood Homely" all over the place, plus aged up, but in the books at least she's gone soft in the very bad sense, both mentally and physically. She has some . . . interesting ideas concerning the current state of affairs. Is criminally overbearing to her son, who is already troubled and made infanitely worse by her mothering. The poor kid is practically infantalized by it.

Flower Knight (L-something) is in a relationship with the King's brother, and trying to convince him to...plan a coup or something?

Loras Tyrell. Knight of the Flowers since his family's sigil is, indeed, a flower. The show has changed his characterization a bit, and that of Renly. They've also greatly advanced their plot lines, most of which don't get a good start until the 2nd book, and don't really roll until the third. They've also confused a lot of people because we have them plotting way out of time frame, which drastically changes the nature of what either character was after to begin with.

Was that the Spider creeping around the dungeons plotting to kill Ned?

Was he?

If it was, why would he then warn Ned about the poison?

Why indeed?

This, and the above, are two enduring mysteries of the series. Get used to this kind of thing. Very little gets explained out front, and you have to infer, deduce, and frankly invent reasons for why some of this stuff is happening, only to have it yanked out from underneath you when you get more information later on.

Truth is, what Arya saw is entirely unclear. This is doubly or even trebly so in the novel since the scene is from her point of view, then a 9 year old girl who is frightened and imaginitive, and so what she saw might not actually be factual. The nature of differing media alters things a good bit here.

Oh, and Gregor is evidently a very poor loser. Interesting that Robert didn't shout him down when he was trying to murder Flower Knight, only when Ned was in the way.

Gregor is an exceptionally bad loser, and you ain't seen the half of it.

Semi to not really spoiler below:

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Gregor is, essentially, a serial rapist, homicidal maniac, with chronic and crippling migrains that he "controls" with liquor and laudnum (or the fantastic equivalency of it called "Milk of the Poppy") who has . . . "anger problems."

Gregor only gets worse as time goes by. To the point of nightmarish stuff.

Still no Syrio, sad.

Wait for it. You'll be glad you did.

[Xondoure]

Crazy Lady with the Creepy Kid is Oh, and Gregor is evidently a very poor loser. Interesting that Robert didn't shout him down when he was trying to murder Flower Knight, only when Ned was in the way.

Sandor Clegane stepped in actually, it was a duel of brothers.

EDIT:

Truth is, what Arya saw is entirely unclear. This is doubly or even trebly so in the novel since the scene is from her point of view, then a 9 year old girl who is frightened and imaginitive, and so what she saw might not actually be factual. The nature of differing media alters things a good bit here.

This I disagree, with, Arya may be a frightened child, but she's got a clearer head than most of the characters in the series, and I find it doubtful that her imagination got away with her.

[hamlet]

This I disagree, with, Arya may be a frightened child, but she's got a clearer head than most of the characters in the series, and I find it doubtful that her imagination got away with her.

By what measure? She's actually got the judgement of a squirrell high on Meth.

[Xondoure]

By what measure? She's actually got the judgement of a squirrell high on Meth.

Judgement sure, but she's always been pretty observant.