When you play the Game of Thrones...

[hamlet]

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I'm actually expecting an info dump in regards to this from Barristan in ADWD. Given book 3 ends with him promising to tell Dany about her family, and he was in position to know most everything, we'll probably hear a lot more about how good/bad Rhaegar was, how he related to Aerys, etc.

Maybe, but remember that Baristan wasn't there and might not actually know.

I think the only person who actually knows anything anymore is Howland Reed.

[Hallavast]

Tecnically, he demanded to face Rheagar in open combat. Slight difference.

I think it's dangerous to speculate on the morality of the issue simply because all we have is speculation, really. We just don't have enough data to make a good judgement on what happened.

I think it's useless to speculate on the morality of any character's actions in this series, because All Humans Are Bastards. <-- Warning TV Tropes black hole. Seriously, there're practically no main characters in this saga who don't do any ****ed Up ****. Everyone has either broken some oath, betrayed someone, committed violence against innocents, lied, cheated, raped, stolen, boinked their brother/sister or served a tyrant who has. Either that, or they're dead.

...

[Axolotl]

Tecnically, he demanded to face Rheagar in open combat. Slight difference.

Not much, he wanted to kill Rheagar for what he did.

I think it's dangerous to speculate on the morality of the issue simply because all we have is speculation, really. We just don't have enough data to make a good judgement on what happened.

I think it's pretty easy to talk about the morality of it. He started a brutal civil war that killed thousands of inoccent people (and ended up causing another one that kill even more people) just because he at best wanted to have an affair and at worst was just plain rape. That is utterly reprehensible. Pretty much everything that happens in the series could have been avoided if he'd just stayed with the woman he did marry.

[VanBuren]

I think it's useless to speculate on the morality of any character's actions in this series, because All Humans Are Bastards. <-- Warning TV Tropes black hole. Seriously, there're practically no main characters in this saga who don't do any ****ed Up ****. Everyone has either broken some oath, betrayed someone, committed violence against innocents, lied, cheated, raped, stolen, boinked their brother/sister or served a tyrant who has. Either that, or they're dead.

...

What did Eddard do that was ever "****ed Up ****"?

Granted, I assume you meant that he was an exception under that last heading.

Not much, he wanted to kill Rheagar for what he did.

I think it's pretty easy to talk about the morality of it. He started a brutal civil war that killed thousands of inoccent people (and ended up causing another one that kill even more people) just because he at best wanted to have an affair and at worst was just plain rape. That is utterly reprehensible. Pretty much everything that happens in the series could have been avoided if he'd just stayed with the woman he did marry.

Seriously. Why couldn't he have just had affairs with her on the side? It worked for Robert.

[Xondoure]

R+L is just Romeo and Juliet on a bigger scale.

[hamlet]

Not much, he wanted to kill Rheagar for what he did.

I think it's pretty easy to talk about the morality of it. He started a brutal civil war that killed thousands of inoccent people (and ended up causing another one that kill even more people) just because he at best wanted to have an affair and at worst was just plain rape. That is utterly reprehensible. Pretty much everything that happens in the series could have been avoided if he'd just stayed with the woman he did marry.

Or maybe he was actually doing something else we're not aware of. He may have been actively attempting to fullfill prophecy because he knew that failing to do so would have led to catastrophically bad results, such as the death of everybody at the hands of the Others when there's nobody to stand up to them.

[The_JJ]

Not much, he wanted to kill Rheagar for what he did.

I think it's pretty easy to talk about the morality of it. He started a brutal civil war that killed thousands of inoccent people (and ended up causing another one that kill even more people) just because he at best wanted to have an affair and at worst was just plain rape. That is utterly reprehensible. Pretty much everything that happens in the series could have been avoided if he'd just stayed with the woman he did marry.

Well, also the bit where his best friends brother was forced to hang while his best friends father was slowly roasted alive. The civil war was a long time coming and certainly wasn't Robert's crusade alone.

[Axolotl]

Well, also the bit where his best friends brother was forced to hang while his best friends father was slowly roasted alive.

But that only happened because of Rheagar's kidnapping Lyanna. If it hadn't of happened then Aerys would have just been remembered as a bit of nutter, he only really went in the deep end after people began to rebel.

[Seerow]

Maybe, but remember that Baristan wasn't there and might not actually know.

I think the only person who actually knows anything anymore is Howland Reed.

He wasn't at the tower of joy, but he was around Rhaegar throughout most of his life, and may have even known about the prophecy of Ice and Fire that Dany sees in book 2. I don't think we'll hear "Oh yeah Rheagar and Lyana were married" or "Lyana went willingly with Rhaegar" or anything about that whole debacle, but I do expect we'll hear more about Rhaegar from an objective point of view that would give us a better idea of how he may have acted and his motives. Right now we only have a couple anecdotes to go off of.

[Keld Denar]

I'm a bit lost...who are Rhaeger and Lyanna? What houses are they in? Have we met them in the show yet? What is so special about them other than the fact that everyone in this thread is obsessed with them?

[TheSummoner]

Lyanna is Ned's sister who was going to marry Robert. Rhaeger (Targaryen) is the guy who kidnapped her, sparking the war that made Robert King.

Both died before the series began. Lyanna was mentioned in episode 10 down in the crypts and a few times before that (but I can't remember specifics of those times).

[Axolotl]

I'm a bit lost...who are Rhaeger and Lyanna? What houses are they in? Have we met them in the show yet? What is so special about them other than the fact that everyone in this thread is obsessed with them?

Lyanna was Eddard Starks sister, Rhaegar was Aerys's son and Daenerys' brother. Before the series started Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna (who was going to marry Robert) but Brandon (Eddard's older brother) demanded to kill Rhaegar because of it. Aerys then arrested Brandon and Rickon (Eddard's father) and brutally executed them. This then provoked the rebellion that put Robert on the throne and drove the Targaryen's out of Westeros.

[Keld Denar]

Ah...I see. Did they have any kids? Or was just:

*I love you* *I love you too* *kiss* *schlurt* *gurgle*

Also, the Stark's really need to learn a lesson from this. Kings are bad juju. Anyone caught associating with a king will eventually report to the nearest termination booth for summary execution. Lyanna, Rickon, Brandon, Ned, all dead at the hands of a king. I'm guessing Sanza isn't far off, probably Lady Kat too. I'll be pissed if they kill Arya though. She's a badass. The pointy end indeed.

[Axolotl]

Ah...I see. Did they have any kids? Or was just:

*I love you* *I love you too* *kiss* *schlurt* *gurgle*

That's a very big question. One that many people want to know the answer to.

Also, the Stark's really need to learn a lesson from this. Kings are bad juju. Anyone caught associating with a king will eventually report to the nearest termination booth for summary execution. Lyanna, Rickon, Brandon, Ned, all dead at the hands of a king. I'm guessing Sanza isn't far off, probably Lady Kat too. I'll be pissed if they kill Arya though. She's a badass. The pointy end indeed.

Not to spoil much but there are far worse people than Joffrey and Aerys for them to associate with. Far worse.

[VanBuren]

Ah...I see. Did they have any kids? Or was just:

*I love you* *I love you too* *kiss* *schlurt* *gurgle*

Also, the Stark's really need to learn a lesson from this. Kings are bad juju. Anyone caught associating with a king will eventually report to the nearest termination booth for summary execution. Lyanna, Rickon, Brandon, Ned, all dead at the hands of a king. I'm guessing Sanza isn't far off, probably Lady Kat too. I'll be pissed if they kill Arya though. She's a badass. The pointy end indeed.

Well, even the idea that it was mutual is spec. The most definitive statement we have is that he raped her, but that comes from Robert who happened to be madly in love with her and hated him anyway.

[Dienekes]

I'm a bit lost...who are Rhaeger and Lyanna? What houses are they in? Have we met them in the show yet? What is so special about them other than the fact that everyone in this thread is obsessed with them?

Here's the whole bloody tale as information given throughout the 1st book.

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Ned Stark once had an older brother Brandon, and a younger sister Lyanna, and a father whose name escapes me. Lyanna was promised to be wed to Robert Baratheon. However, even young Robert already had a roving eye and Lyanna seemed to recognize what Robert was and wasn't really "in wuv" with him.

Now along comes Prince Rhaegar Targaryen, the crown prince of the realm, knight, scholar, and all around swell guy. Pretty much everyone who talked to him seemed to like and respect him, he was honorable, just, kind, had a loving wife and a children. The works.

So one day there was a tournament, and Rhaegar entered the lists, and instead of crowning his wife the Queen of Love and Beauty as was custom, he gives the title to Lyanna (which in my opinion is one of the coldest things a guy can do to his wife, I mean really, jeez, talk about a slap to the face).

A bit later and Lyanna is gone with Rhaegar. Did he kidnap her? Did she go willingly? Who knows. But of course the Starks and Robert are furious. You can't just go around taking any noble woman you please even if you are king, it's disrespectful. So Brandon goes to speak his mind to Rhaegar's dad, King Aerys II "the Mad King." Now as to be expected, the Mad King was kind of loopy so he did not take it well that some noble's son was telling his family what to do. So he imprisoned Brandon and ordered Lord Stark to ride down and answer for his son's impudence.

Now Lord Stark thinks "Oh the king's in one of his moods again, I best go appease him, probably some minor token or fine." And goes south for his son. Unfortunately this is the time when "A Bit Crazy" Aerys II becomes "The Mad King" Aerys II. He burns Lord Stark alive and strangles Brandon before him.

Not being enough for Aerys, he then goes to the Eyrie and demands that Lord Jon Arryn give up his two wards, the young Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark. Well Arryn can put 2+2 together and get death, and having grown to rather like his charges, and with Ned and Robert not wanting to be burned alive the three start Robert's Rebellion. Which was decisively won at the Battle of the Trident when Robert's smaller force beat Rhaegar's and Robert slew Prince Rhaegar himself.

Now all that was left of the war was mopping it up. King's Landing was still held and Lyanna was being kept at a place called "The Tower of Joy." Getting rid of the murderous Mad King took priority so the army marched south. But it seemed to be a race between the rebelling army and the Lannister army, headed by Tywin the former hand of the King himself.

Aerys opens up the gates for the loyal Tywin, and instead of getting a nice boost to his defenses gets his city plundered. Rhaegar's wife and children were killed brutally (allegedly by Gregor Clegane) and Aery's himself was slain by his own Kingsguardsman Jaime Lannister.

One final place to go then, Ned and 6 buddies travel to the Tower of Joy to get Lyanna back. Once there they meet three members of the Kingsguard, the Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, and the unbeatable Ser Arthur Dayne, and some other guy. 7 v 3 and the only survivors were Ned and his bannerman Howland Reed. So Ned finally get's to see his sister after the war is over, only to find her dying on a bed of blood and roses and with the last words "Promise me, Ned."

Draw whatever conclusions you want from the tale.

[Axolotl]

Rhaegar's wife and children were killed brutally (allegedly by Gregor Clegane)

No allegedly about it, he confesses in a fairly dramatic fashion. Well Amory Lorch killed one of his kids but Gregor killed Elia and the other child.

[Dienekes]

No allegedly about it, he confesses in a fairly dramatic fashion. Well Amory Lorch killed one of his kids but Gregor killed Elia and the other child.

Thus why I said from the information given in the first book at the top. We get verifications and added details later.

[Zocelot]

One final place to go then, Ned and 6 buddies travel to the Tower of Joy to get Lyanna back. Once there they meet three members of the Kingsguard, the Lord Commander Gerold Hightower, and the unbeatable Ser Arthur Dayne. 7 v 3 and the only survivors were Ned and his bannerman Howland Reed. So Ned finally get's to see his sister after the war is over, only to find her dying on a bed of blood and roses and with the last words "Promise me, Ned."

Is that whole ordeal ever gone into more detail on? I can't remember, but it's been a while since I've read the later books.

[IthilanorStPete]

Is that whole ordeal ever gone into more detail on? I can't remember, but it's been a while since I've read the later books.

No, it isn't. Hence all the dispute and debate.

[hamlet]

He wasn't at the tower of joy, but he was around Rhaegar throughout most of his life, and may have even known about the prophecy of Ice and Fire that Dany sees in book 2. I don't think we'll hear "Oh yeah Rheagar and Lyana were married" or "Lyana went willingly with Rhaegar" or anything about that whole debacle, but I do expect we'll hear more about Rhaegar from an objective point of view that would give us a better idea of how he may have acted and his motives. Right now we only have a couple anecdotes to go off of.

Which is why I've been saying you can't say much about the character of either or the incident. We simply don't know, and the people who do know, or might know, aren't talking about it, at least not in our hearing.

[hamlet]

<snip>

Draw whatever conclusions you want from the tale.

Dude!

Spoilers!!!!

[Axolotl]

Dude!

Spoilers!!!!

Spoilers of what happened before the book began!

Seriously apart from how Brandon and Rickon died none of that is a spoiler, it's all treated as stuff the characters know and you pretty much have to piece it all together yourself as a reader. Hell I only realised in the second book that the Greyjoy rebellion was a seperate war from Robert's rebellion.

[Parra]

Spoilers of what happened before the book began!

The discussion is also 41 pages long, are spoilers still required?

[Mathis]

The discussion is also 41 pages long, are spoilers still required?

The Mod They Call Me: Please note that, since this thread isn't marked with [spoilers] in the title, under the forum rules you should put any spoilers under a spoiler tag.

Yeah they are...

[Axolotl]

The discussion is also 41 pages long, are spoilers still required?

Probably, I mean I'm sure people are reading the thread who've only watched the TV show. And I'm sure they'd be annoyed if people started posting some of the things that happen in book 3.

My point was that it's not really a spoiler if it happened before the series started and it isn't treated like a secret by any of the characters. So it's safe to talk about say the Greyjoy rebellion but not to give details about the War of Five Kings.

[hamlet]

Spoilers of what happened before the book began!

Seriously apart from how Brandon and Rickon died none of that is a spoiler, it's all treated as stuff the characters know and you pretty much have to piece it all together yourself as a reader. Hell I only realised in the second book that the Greyjoy rebellion was a seperate war from Robert's rebellion.

Yes, I understand that, but my point was that almost all of that info you posted (even if it's not quite spoiling the plot of the books) is important for readers to pick up on their own as they go through the books. Erring on the side of caution and all that.

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It'd be like telling them flat out that Varys and Illyrio might be linked strongly with Martell!

[Axolotl]

Yes, I understand that, but my point was that almost all of that info you posted (even if it's not quite spoiling the plot of the books) is important for readers to pick up on their own as they go through the books. Erring on the side of caution and all that.

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It'd be like telling them flat out that Varys and Illyrio might be linked strongly with Martell!

I just want to note that it wasn't me who posted all the info. But personally I would have liked to be told that before I started the series, then at least I wouldn't have spent half the first book wondering "If Thoros was the first person into the Pyke then how come Gregor was the one who killed Elia?" which plagued me until I read Theon's chapters in Book 2.

[hamlet]

I just want to note that it wasn't me who posted all the info. But personally I would have liked to be told that before I started the series, then at least I wouldn't have spent half the first book wondering "If Thoros was the first person into the Pyke then how come Gregor was the one who killed Elia?" which plagued me until I read Theon's chapters in Book 2.

Personally, I would have loathed that. I very much enjoyed learning it bit by bit, teasing out the back story from memories and tidbits dropped by other characters.

Otherwise, it's just an info dump.

As for the Greyjoy rebellion, it took me about 10 minutes to realize that it was separate from Robert's Rebellion. Not that complicated.

[Darklord Bright]

Well, I waited for the first season to be done, then binged it online. I don't think it's anywhere near the best series ever, but it's not terrible. Though I will say that I flat-out hate every single scene and character that's been part of the Dothraki plot - with little to no exceptions. Not even in the same way I hate [character X] because they did [evil thing Y] - I mean I honestly think that that whole Daenerys plot is awful from an out-of-universe perspective. But that's just me, perhaps.

I still like Tyrion. He may be a bastard at times, but he's so far been fairly fun to watch all the time. Still go a little ":/" every time someone drops some profanity in there for no real reason, but I've sort of accepted it as something I'm going to have to put up with, whether or not I like it being there. I do admit that I really want to know where this is going, but the last scene of episode 10 makes me think it's perhaps going to go in a direction I may not like, for reasons stated in the paragraph above this one.

Also...

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Apart from the whole inbreeding thing, is there any real reason for Joffrey's cartoonish 'dumb sadistic evil' thing? Amidst the more realistically morally black characters, he just comes across more as some sort of caricature. There's not a thing he's done that I can really find believable when compared to the others.

Despite the vague air of unimpressed-ness I might be giving off here, I really have found myself enjoying the series for the most part. There've been a few goofy things like melting gold on a wood-fire but otherwise I'm honestly finding myself attached to a lot of the cast that have made it this far, and I've been enjoying keeping up with the political game running alongside the whole thing. I wouldn't say, based on this series alone, that this was anywhere near my favourite fantasy media - but I'd be lying if I said I'm not entertained.