When you play the Game of Thrones...

[kyoryu]

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I don't know if it'll matter or not as to the succession. I think it's a little too early to tell, but if I had to guess, I'd say that it will most certainly put Jon in mortal danger from a veriety of sources, least of which is Melisandre. Remember, there are still a bunch of folks up on the wall who would probably jump at the chance to get their oathes nullified if all they had to do was stick a knife in Jon's back. Hell, Melisandre, upon finding out that R+L=J is true and a better fit for her prophecy than Stannis would probably dump Stannis like a steaming pile and glom onto Jon instead.

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Good point. The succession may matter a whole heck of a lot less than the various prophecies, which is (yay, depression) really what I think is driving Jon and will drive his arc. So, I don't think he's gonna die. Mel needs royal blood, not necessarily the blood of an actual king.

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Actually, all things considered, I think that the Night's Watch will, by the end of the series, have become defunct if not outright destroyed and the oathes effectively meaningless, which will free up Jon for other pursuits.

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I think that the Night's Watch will become Jon's army, that he uses to overthrow the "usurpers", possibly Baelish in the long run. The group of dregs and criminals called the Night's Watch becoming the army that saves Westeros from evil? Yeah, that fits thematically with the whole "find nobility where you least expect it" theme.

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I also think that, mirroring Aemon, Jon will be tested three times over the course of his time on the Wall. Three times as to whether he will abandon his oath and post or not. The first time was most certainly when he almost raced south to participate in Robb's war. The second may or may not have been his time with Igritte, but I doubt that as throughout the whole thing he kept in mind that this was only a ruse allowing him to spy on the wildlings and escape back to the Wall.

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This made me think of something. Dany will be betrayed three times - for love, for honor, and for money. Jon has already broken his oath twice - once for honor, once for love - could they be related? And thinking about the Wall was his way of rationalizing it, which is pretty clear when his internal monologue switches to thinking that they should have stayed in the cave.

[hamlet]

[spoiler]

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This made me think of something. Dany will be betrayed three times - for love, for honor, and for money. Jon has already broken his oath twice - once for honor, once for love - could they be related? And thinking about the Wall was his way of rationalizing it, which is pretty clear when his internal monologue switches to thinking that they should have stayed in the cave.

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This is an interesting thought. The first part that is.

I'd have to look closer as I move forward with the books again (5th time through, god I'm so sad), but I think it might be supportable. The problem is, we don't have ready identification of Dany's betrayals either. They're kind of up in the air, too.

[Maelstrom]

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It will not be released in Dance as Dance has been stated to be very much like Feast, kind of an interlude novel about the lull between storms.

Guessing you're not in Germany and have received the book already, then? And, no, that's not a spoiler. Pre-orders have not got here yet (and even if they did, I'm not the type to ruin it for others...)

[hamlet]

Guessing you're not in Germany and have received the book already, then? And, no, that's not a spoiler. Pre-orders have not got here yet (and even if they did, I'm not the type to ruin it for others...)

Nope. Don't have it yet. I'm basing that off the "pre-review" released a little while ago.

[tomandtish]

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Don't forget, in ASoS, Rob issued a declaration that Jon was legitimate and his heir as King of the North (under the mistaken belief that his brothers were dead). Edmure and Cat both know this. (although Edmure is currently being help hostage and Cat might not be willing to admit to it).

It's therefore arguable that Jon is now the rightful heir (to Rob's throne at least) if he can be released from his vows.

[Seerow]

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Don't forget, in ASoS, Rob issued a declaration that Jon was legitimate and his heir as King of the North (under the mistaken belief that his brothers were dead). Edmure and Cat both know this. (although Edmure is currently being help hostage and Cat might not be willing to admit to it).

It's therefore arguable that Jon is now the rightful heir (to Rob's throne at least) if he can be released from his vows.

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Actually we see Rob tell Cat that's what he plans to do, she disagrees, he goes away angry. A bit later we see him ask the lords to witness to him designating his heir, followed by a cutaway without showing any details. Knowing Martin that could mean nothing, or mean it's leaving us open for a twist as someone else is named his heir instead

[Triscuitable]

I don't have HBO so I'm not going to watch. I like the brutal politics and warfare of the series but I don't like how it handles magic. Personally, I'd rather have no magic whatsoever and just stick with alternate middle-ages.

So you're basically saying you don't like how the unpredictable science of their world works? Think of our science as magic, because that's basically what it is. It's not nearly as hands on as something like what is used in, say Harry Potter, but it's still a phenomenal thing we don't quite understand. They do. If you view their form of magic as a science they have fleshed out more than we have, do you like how we handle our magic?

Holy cow I replied to a post made 44 pages ago.

[DomaDoma]

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Actually we see Rob tell Cat that's what he plans to do, she disagrees, he goes away angry. A bit later we see him ask the lords to witness to him designating his heir, followed by a cutaway without showing any details. Knowing Martin that could mean nothing, or mean it's leaving us open for a twist as someone else is named his heir instead

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I thought Bran actually heard about this legitimacy bit? I could be completely wrong, though.

[The Glyphstone]

So, from judicious reading of spoilers, I know that sometime up ahead,

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Jeoffrey dies.

Can someone who's read the entire series assure me

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That his death is horrible, painful, and preferably as slow as possible?

[Axolotl]

So, from judicious reading of spoilers, I know that sometime up ahead,

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Jeoffrey dies.

Can someone who's read the entire series assure me

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That his death is horrible, painful, and preferably as slow as possible?

Yes.

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It's a very happy moment. It's after effects are less happy.

[Lord of Rapture]

So, from judicious reading of spoilers, I know that sometime up ahead,

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Jeoffrey dies.

Can someone who's read the entire series assure me

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That his death is horrible, painful, and preferably as slow as possible?

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Yep.

[Seerow]

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I thought Bran actually heard about this legitimacy bit? I could be completely wrong, though.

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No. The whole thing with Rob happened just before the red wedding, ie long after Winterfell had been burned to the ground. From that point on, Bran is on the run and has no news from anybody at all. He doesn't even know Robb is dead as of the end of the third book, and we see nothing of him in the fourth

[hamlet]

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No. The whole thing with Rob happened just before the red wedding, ie long after Winterfell had been burned to the ground. From that point on, Bran is on the run and has no news from anybody at all. He doesn't even know Robb is dead as of the end of the third book, and we see nothing of him in the fourth

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Which is why so many people are foaming at the mouth over getting their hands on Dance as it will give us some insight into what Bran and "Coldhands" are up to. Speculation about Coldhands' identity is as rife as that of Jon and who the three heads of the dragon might be.

[Zmflavius]

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Which is why so many people are foaming at the mouth over getting their hands on Dance as it will give us some insight into what Bran and "Coldhands" are up to. Speculation about Coldhands' identity is as rife as that of Jon and who the three heads of the dragon might be.

ADWD spoilers

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In the preview chapters, there is a cliffhanger where apparently, Coldhands's identity is questioned.

[Knaight]

So, from judicious reading of spoilers, I know that sometime up ahead,

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Jeoffrey dies.

Can someone who's read the entire series assure me

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That his death is horrible, painful, and preferably as slow as possible?

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It is a glorious, glorious moment. Do you also want to know how he dies?

[kyoryu]

Can someone who's read the entire series assure me

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That his death is horrible, painful, and preferably as slow as possible?

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Yes. And Cersei is there, and gets to watch the agony he is in. Brought a tear to my eye - a tear of happiness, that is.

[The Glyphstone]

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It is a glorious, glorious moment. Do you also want to know how he dies?

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Please. Does it involve honey and fire ants?

[Seerow]

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Please. Does it involve honey and fire ants?

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Nothing so torturous sadly. He gets killed via a poison that results in him strangling to death, clawing at his throat to the point of drawing blood. The poison is courtesy of Littlefinger.

[Yanagi]

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Please. Does it involve honey and fire ants?

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No, but he is struck down just as he gets the hot girl, the Valyrian steel sword, and an almost-complete Seven Kingdoms. He also dies right after being insulted by Tyrion and laughed at by the whole wedding party, which given Joffrey's characterization is just as bad a torment as fire ants and honey.

Pretty darn satisfying, all told. All the better since it's clear everyone but Cersei is freaking out about Joff showing signs of being Aerys III.

Finally saw the season finale; awesome. I want a spin-off show that's just Baelish and Varys obliquely talking smack at one another.

Dying to know who they'll cast for Stannis and Davos for next season. That's going to be a critical duo in terms of acting dynamics (and I really like the Davos bits).

[Weezer]

Yes.

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It's a very happy moment. It's after effects are less happy.

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So not happy in my opinion that I kind of wish he hadn't died. His "rule" with Tywin as regent/Hand would've been far superior to Cersei's royal screwup of the kingdom. Sadly his death precluded this and led to some of the more idiotic decisions in the book.

[Seerow]

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So not happy in my opinion that I kind of wish he hadn't died. His "rule" with Tywin as regent/Hand would've been far superior to Cersei's royal screwup of the kingdom. Sadly his death precluded this and led to some of the more idiotic decisions in the book.

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Tywin as Regent/Hand for Tommen would have been even better. A solid 8 years with a more amiable ruler whom he would be grooming the whole time to be better than his last 3 predecessors.

Joff dying isn't what stopped Tywin from serving as regent, that blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Jaime, who decided to free Tyrion, and decided to tell him the truth about Tysha just as he did so. Also on Varys who not only went along with it, but gave Tyrion the directions he needed to find Tywin's quarters (Varys could have just said "There is no time, we have to go" rather than some hand wringing and giving exact directions on how to get there). And of course Tyrion for the actual act of killing Tywin, but I blame those who enabled it more than Tyrion himself.

[Knaight]

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And of course Tyrion for the actual act of killing Tywin, but I blame those who enabled it more than Tyrion himself.

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If you are counting everyone who enabled it, you might as well include Tywin. He could have chosen not to make an enemy of Tyrion, but he didn't, and look where that got him.

[kyoryu]

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If you are counting everyone who enabled it, you might as well include Tywin. He could have chosen not to make an enemy of Tyrion, but he didn't, and look where that got him.

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This. Dear God, this. The impact of the Tysha incident on Tyrion can't be underestimated. It was the final blow in his self esteem, and the thing that turned him into the self-loathing bastard that he became. Tyrion being convinced that he was unlovable was the center of his self-hate.

Finding out that no, this was inflicted deliberately on him? And that Tywin had caused the one woman in his life that had actually loved him to be gang-raped? And all to avoid the embarassment of Tyrion making time with a lowborn woman? It's a small wonder that Tywin got off as lightly as he did.

[Yanagi]

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So not happy in my opinion that I kind of wish he hadn't died. His "rule" with Tywin as regent/Hand would've been far superior to Cersei's royal screwup of the kingdom. Sadly his death precluded this and led to some of the more idiotic decisions in the book.

I disagree, at least provisionally:

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Tywin would likely be an excellent Hand in his brutal, efficient fashion, but Joffrey's almost a legal adult...at which time he has full right as king to govern in his own name, name his own Hand, and potentially ignore said Hand's good advice. Book three demonstrates among other things that Tywin's control over this kids doesn't extend to his grandchild--Joff's completely unfazed by the patented Tywin glare we hear about from Jaime and Tyrion's perspective. Joffrey's opinions of Tywin echo Robert, and Joffrey mentions more than once that he wishes to model himself after his "father," right up to insulting Tywin face to face.

Joffrey sits on the throne...that he's cruel, stupid, and irrational don't diminish his power. Even if everyone around him realizes that he's horrid, there's always going to be some sycophant willing to do what he wants, and a gaggle of people to tell him that he's always right...just like Aerys did.

If Tywin were placed as Hand of the King, he'd be in a continuous battle of wills with Joffrey, and Joffrey has the veto. Given how petty and brutal Joffrey is with what power we've seen him handed this amounts to a countdown before Joffrey decides that Grandpa has to go. If Tywin pushes back, we're back to civil war and gambling on which houses will line up with whom.

[Klose_the_Sith]

You know, it's funny about this discussion ...

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Because I felt nothing when Joffrey died but cheered when Tywin did. I guess that in the end, Joff didn't even matter to me.

The real bastard, on the other hand?

Bring him down.

(I think it's also worth noting that despite how people gush over Tywins ability to maintain peace, order and relative stability, he does it in such a way that no man would ever be able to succeed him into office and the kingdom would just be worse off in the long run.)

[Dienekes]

I agree with Weezer sorta.

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Because I honestly miss Joffrey. Seriously, he was an amazing villain. Not smart, or honorable, or anything remotely likable, he was a ignorant pretty boy nitwit git psycho. But after reading Feast I do feel that his impact on the story is felt. Whenever Joffrey said something I wanted to hit him, reading Tyrion mock him about missing rabbits made me laugh at him. He added something to the stories that I don't think we'll get back.

No matter how repulsive the Boltons or any other villain end up being (it's my personal theory that Ramsay/Roose are set up to take the psycho/cool headed tyrant role left vacant at the end of ASOS) I don't think they will ever bring back the same level of hate as I had for Joffrey.

[Knaight]

I agree with Weezer sorta.

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No matter how repulsive the Boltons or any other villain end up being (it's my personal theory that Ramsay/Roose are set up to take the psycho/cool headed tyrant role left vacant at the end of ASOS) I don't think they will ever bring back the same level of hate as I had for Joffrey.

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I find it interesting that you don't hate the Boltons that much yet. Ramsay seems to take over Joffrey's spot quite well, Roose seems to hold Tywin's, and they are doing a decent job filling the shoes already in my opinion. Plus, there is A Dance of Dragons to consider.

[Seerow]

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I find it interesting that you don't hate the Boltons that much yet. Ramsay seems to take over Joffrey's spot quite well, Roose seems to hold Tywin's, and they are doing a decent job filling the shoes already in my opinion. Plus, there is A Dance of Dragons to consider.

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Unless there's a lot from the 4th book I don't remember, Ramsay is more or less behind the scenes/offscreen most of the time. His only time onscreen as far as I recall is when he shows up to burn Winterfell and blame Theon for it. I understand we will be seeing more of him in ADWD, but up to this point he could be the most dispicable person in the world... but we haven't seen enough of him to truly hate him.

Even Roose who has more screen time via Arya, isn't quite so hateable as Joff, even with him (presumably) being the one who shoves the sword through Robb's back.

[Weezer]

I disagree, at least provisionally:

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Tywin would likely be an excellent Hand in his brutal, efficient fashion, but Joffrey's almost a legal adult...at which time he has full right as king to govern in his own name, name his own Hand, and potentially ignore said Hand's good advice. Book three demonstrates among other things that Tywin's control over this kids doesn't extend to his grandchild--Joff's completely unfazed by the patented Tywin glare we hear about from Jaime and Tyrion's perspective. Joffrey's opinions of Tywin echo Robert, and Joffrey mentions more than once that he wishes to model himself after his "father," right up to insulting Tywin face to face.

Joffrey sits on the throne...that he's cruel, stupid, and irrational don't diminish his power. Even if everyone around him realizes that he's horrid, there's always going to be some sycophant willing to do what he wants, and a gaggle of people to tell him that he's always right...just like Aerys did.

If Tywin were placed as Hand of the King, he'd be in a continuous battle of wills with Joffrey, and Joffrey has the veto. Given how petty and brutal Joffrey is with what power we've seen him handed this amounts to a countdown before Joffrey decides that Grandpa has to go. If Tywin pushes back, we're back to civil war and gambling on which houses will line up with whom.

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The thing is that he'd have a few years to get everything under control, which he easily would have pretty quickly seeing that no one of substance is left to oppose him before Joffrey came of age. It certainly wouldn't be the ideal situation but better than what ended up happening. ANd as a bonus Tyrion would still be in Kings Landing so he'd be able to help keep things under control a little bit. Even Joffrey wouldn't be stupid enough to rearm the Faith, I'd take Joffrey's overt madness over Cersei's "cunning" plots.

[Knaight]

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Even Joffrey wouldn't be stupid enough to rearm the Faith, I'd take Joffrey's overt madness over Cersei's "cunning" plots.

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No, but Joffrey would be dumb enough to piss the Faith off to the point where they rearm themselves then go against him.