[3.5] A Translation of Vancian Spellcasting to Psionic Mechanics

[Ernir]

So you upgraded Paladins and Rangers to 3/4th manifester like new Bard or Psi-warr. Seems a little strong, but then I'm used to having to wait for Paladins to cast so overall not sure.

Well, I believe the classes should be more or less on the same playing field, so... yeah. Since this was a spellcasting overhaul, upgrading the Rangers' and Paladins' spellcasting to something usable was rather high on the prio-list.

But please, let me know if you find/see something specific that you find out of balance.

You work is appreciated.

Thanks! \o/

this thing, was it?

Yup, that thing. Although it does seem to be somewhat out of date right now, the script I'm using to zip and update it is on a computer currently resting in a drawer beneath my bed...

... the paragraph indentation seems to be a bit buggy all over the place, particularly for things like class features.

Do you mean in the source code, or in the compiled document?

In either case, can you point out an example?

(incidentally, do you use, or have you considered using, source control (and making that public)? I, uh, appreciate being able to diff between versions to find what changed. (although that does require that code style changes don't happen. but.))

When I started, I considered it. Ended up deciding it was overkill.

But I didn't immediately anticipate the scope of the thing.

It's over 20k lines now, and over 10 published updates. Not so much overkill any more.

If I get around to it, I'll say so in the thread.

"can not" → "cannot"

Is "can not" wrong in this instance?

(also, the Races section without, uh, context, containing only gnomes comes off as a bit ??)

Hmm, good point. Better add a heading to the section.

And make a magic elf while I'm at it.

The link for "and here is the result" is to version 1.10, but "download the document" is 1.11 (and broken).

Ooops. Thanks. Fixed.

Edit: Wow, it's been a while. I can't believe I lost track of this for so long!

Yeah, this project has grown old, suddenly. More than two years since I started, now.

[TuggyNE]

Is "can not" wrong in this instance?

I believe it's universally better to use either can't (informally) or cannot (formally) rather than can not. However, Wiktionary informs me that it's only "often" done that way, rather than always.

Still, as a native English speaker, "can not" just looks wrong.

[Ernir]

I believe it's universally better to use either can't (informally) or cannot (formally) rather than can not. However, Wiktionary informs me that it's only "often" done that way, rather than always.

Still, as a native English speaker, "can not" just looks wrong.

As a non-native speaker, I am not going to contest that.

*find-replaces about 50 instances of "can not"

[sreservoir]

Yup, that thing. Although it does seem to be somewhat out of date right now, the script I'm using to zip and update it is on a computer currently resting in a drawer beneath my bed...

feh, excuses!

Do you mean in the source code, or in the compiled document?

In either case, can you point out an example?

in the compiled document; blackguard has a nasty case where everything before additional feat is unindented, but from there on, all the class feature descriptions are indented? and archmage, compare before/after high arcana, arcane fire. those probably aren't all of it, but.

When I started, I considered it. Ended up deciding it was overkill.

But I didn't immediately anticipate the scope of the thing.

It's over 20k lines now, and over 10 published updates. Not so much overkill any more.

If I get around to it, I'll say so in the thread.

all the persons seem never to expect the scope of its things! but then they get huge. (of course, some things don't, but it's hard to make things worse by starting out with source control. possibly not better, but not easily worse.)

Is "can not" wrong in this instance?

if I'm not mistaken, "can not" indicates that one is able to not do a thing (which implies that one can, but is not forced to), whereas "cannot" indicates the inability to do a thing.

[Ernir]

feh, excuses!

I'll get to it.

in the compiled document; blackguard has a nasty case where everything before additional feat is unindented, but from there on, all the class feature descriptions are indented? and archmage, compare before/after high arcana, arcane fire. those probably aren't all of it, but.

Oh, that.

That's because Unholy Gift and High Arcana are the class feature names, the subsequent paragraphs are the names of the abilities the class feature can grant each time you get it. Compare to Rogue Special Abilities.

In the code, it's \paragraph vs. \subparagraph. I could achieve the same syntax by using item lists. You think that'd be preferable?

[sreservoir]

Oh, that.

That's because Unholy Gift and High Arcana are the class feature names, the subsequent paragraphs are the names of the abilities the class feature can grant each time you get it. Compare to Rogue Special Abilities.

In the code, it's \paragraph vs. \subparagraph. I could achieve the same syntax by using item lists. You think that'd be preferable?

... oh, the bolding was throwing me off; I guess I would have expected subabilities to have been oblique ... or something.

[Ernir]

The source is now available on Github. \o/

Also, pushed out a minor update to add the Mystic Theurge. Noticed that I still hadn't added that one!
It was oddly challenging. Mixing spellcasting classes is quite different with spell points.

[Garryl]

I love those pictures!

Cleric has a subject change in Spells Known: "A Cleric begins play knowing two Cleric spells of your choice", should be "his choice".

Dread Knight's Dark Grace should clarify that the bonus is a minimum of +0. I don't think bonuses can be negative, anyways, but it can't hurt.

The footnote about Dragon Disciple regarding loss of class features due to loss of prerequisites contradicts Complete Warrior, which that that you do lose them. Instead, you should probably say that the character continues to qualify for feats, PrCs, and other options as a creature of his original type, maybe? On a related note, shouldn't the PrC requirement of non-dragon be type, not race?

For the Eldritch Knight's Arcane Vigor, what counts as "successfully" using Spellstrike? For example, if your attack hit but you don't successfully cast the spell due to failed concentration or whatever, if you cast the spell but are unable to resolve it against your target, etc.

For the Loremaster's Secret Health, was the intent that the Con mod be 2 higher (+2 hp/HD), or the Con score (+1 hp/HD)? Also, I'd suggest changing it to just giving a straight bonus to hp (or the Improved Toughness Feat, similar to how Newfound Arcana gives the Magically Gifted feat instead of straight spell points).

Might want to change the text of the Metamagician's Focus Specialization. It's (mostly) in second person, whereas the other abilities are all third person. I take it this class is still not complete? It seems somewhat lacking in class features.

Alright. Mystic Theurge time!
(Related) Any reason Practiced Spellcaster got renamed to Continued Training?
Continued Training: Might want to just give this (once) as a bonus feat, period. Otherwise you run into people like me trying to make your life difficult by talking about having 3 spellcasting classes (and, naturally, having taken Continued Training for the one not designated as primary or secondary), or taking Continued Training for both of your classes already, thus getting it as a (redundant) bonus feat twice instead of once and then DCFSing or Psy Reffing or Retraining the originals away for extra feats.
A single bonus feat at level 10 seems odd, but I can roll with it. Also, it's called Bonus Feat on the table and Broadened Horizons in the text.

Oh, hey! I'm in the thanks section. You're welcome.
Speaking of which, don't forget to change the hardcoded year (2012) in the Ogl.tex file regarding your current campaign in a couple of days.

Edit:
Oh, yeah, I was going to say something about the MT's spellcasting before I hit submit.

If you want to simplify the Spells prerequisite, take a page out of ToB (specifically, Shadow Sun Ninja). "Ability to cast both arcane spells and divine spells and ability to cast second-level arcane spells or divine spells".

Intended entry is Wiz 3/Clr 1 (or equivalent). With Cleric using Ardent mechanics and being (almost) assured the Practiced Manifester equivalent, you've got full spell level progression there. End result is the equivalent of 17 levels in each (+14 primary/+16 secondary). CL losses are at ECL 4, 9, and 19, so you get double 9ths at level 20. Not really sure how that plays out, though, especially with Cleric keeping its high level spells.

Note: If you go Wiz 2/Clr 1/Wiz +1, you can actually use Cleric as your primary casting class, giving full progression to Wizard, which means you're only delayed one character level on your spellcasting ultimately, rather than 3. That is MUCH better, but certainly unintended. You can do this due to the Cleric using Ardent mechanics for max spell level (although, unlike the Ardent, the Cleric doesn't force you to pick only 1st level powers at level 1, so you can get away with one Cleric level instead of 2).

Primary spellcasting class designation seems to exist only to give that class the shaft on caster levels. Doesn't seem very "primary" to me. Maybe add in a class feature somewhere that provides a benefit for or with the primary casting class (like if Combined Knowledge only let you use your primary class's ability score for your secondary's, instead of both ways, for example).

[Razanir]

if I'm not mistaken, "can not" indicates that one is able to not do a thing (which implies that one can, but is not forced to), whereas "cannot" indicates the inability to do a thing.

This. "I cannot walk to school" means it's not an option for me to walk; I have to find some other way. "I can not walk to school" means that it's an option to walk, but there are also other options. (It can also imply that I typically walk to school, depending on inflection)

Also, here's some nitpicky advice: Check your alphabetization. "Foresight" should come before the "Form of X" spells.

[Razanir]

Working on my own version of this for Pathfinder. Find off, is it fine if I just take your pdf and change only the stuff that needs changed?

I'll probably start my own thread once I have a bit more than just a Sorcerer. But for now, can I get your opinion on my Sorcerer? Spell points as a Psion/Wilder, spells known as Ernir's Sorcerer, Wild Magic works like a Wilder's Wild Surge, and bloodlines work like Oracle mysteries

[Ernir]

I love those pictures!

Thanks.

Cleric has a subject change in Spells Known: "A Cleric begins play knowing two Cleric spells of your choice", should be "his choice".

Oops.

FYI, the document is probably littered with these. This is one of those things that I can't seem to do intuitively in English.

The footnote about Dragon Disciple regarding loss of class features due to loss of prerequisites contradicts Complete Warrior, which that that you do lose them. Instead, you should probably say that the character continues to qualify for feats, PrCs, and other options as a creature of his original type, maybe?

Hmm, that one again.

By my best reading, the DD Paradox doesn't really exist in the core rules. Core doesn't have the paradox-inducing clause that we have in CWar (and I believe CArc too? Maybe others?), so if the DD Paradox exists, at least it doesn't exist until those supplements came out.
Further, by my understanding, the rules in each 3.5 supplement apply to content within that supplement only unless they specify otherwise (as the Rules Compendium does) - that is, 3.5 uses lexical scoping. This would make the CWar PrCs weird, but since the DD is not a CWar PrC, it should be fine.

This is a lecture I really didn't want to include in the document itself. But still, the question is being asked. Whether that is because I am wrong about this or because a lot of other people have not read as much into this as I have doesn't really matter.

So I guess I'll just include a short clause that makes it explicit in the case of the DD itself.

On a related note, shouldn't the PrC requirement of non-dragon be type, not race?

Ooo, nice point. This was copied from the SRD, Type is more correct than Race.

For the Eldritch Knight's Arcane Vigor, what counts as "successfully" using Spellstrike? For example, if your attack hit but you don't successfully cast the spell due to failed concentration or whatever, if you cast the spell but are unable to resolve it against your target, etc.

Good question. To be honest, I can't remember what I was thinking at the time.

I'm removing the "successfully" clause. Whatever it was supposed to mean.

For the Loremaster's Secret Health, was the intent that the Con mod be 2 higher (+2 hp/HD), or the Con score (+1 hp/HD)? Also, I'd suggest changing it to just giving a straight bonus to hp (or the Improved Toughness Feat, similar to how Newfound Arcana gives the Magically Gifted feat instead of straight spell points).*

It does say modifier. Comparing it to the others, that's a bit strong.

Changing it to granting Toughness. Also changing Toughness to not suck. :D

Might want to change the text of the Metamagician's Focus Specialization. It's (mostly) in second person, whereas the other abilities are all third person. I take it this class is still not complete? It seems somewhat lacking in class features.

Dread Knight's Dark Grace should clarify that the bonus is a minimum of +0. I don't think bonuses can be negative, anyways, but it can't hurt.

Ah, right. Those are in the sources I uploaded, but no, neither are finished. (Also, I gutted quite a few of the Dread Knight ideas to build the Blackguard.)

If/when I get back to them, I'll take care of it.

Any reason Practiced Spellcaster got renamed to Continued Training?

Renamed? What? Any relation to non-OGL feats are entirely accidental. Yup.

Continued Training: Might want to just give this (once) as a bonus feat, period. Otherwise you run into people like me trying to make your life difficult by talking about having 3 spellcasting classes (and, naturally, having taken Continued Training for the one not designated as primary or secondary), or taking Continued Training for both of your classes already, thus getting it as a (redundant) bonus feat twice instead of once and then DCFSing or Psy Reffing or Retraining the originals away for extra feats.

Hehe.

I could do that.

I think I can also just leave it. If you want to do reshuffling gymnastics or make builds that end up with poor CL progressions or redundant feats, I don't think I'm going to be stopping you anyway.

A single bonus feat at level 10 seems odd, but I can roll with it. Also, it's called Bonus Feat on the table and Broadened Horizons in the text.

THB, that feat is there to make the middle section of the table less empty.

You (or anyone?) have a better idea?

Speaking of which, don't forget to change the hardcoded year (2012) in the Ogl.tex file regarding your current campaign in a couple of days.

Done!

Intended entry is Wiz 3/Clr 1 (or equivalent). With Cleric using Ardent mechanics and being (almost) assured the Practiced Manifester equivalent, you've got full spell level progression there. End result is the equivalent of 17 levels in each (+14 primary/+16 secondary). CL losses are at ECL 4, 9, and 19, so you get double 9ths at level 20. Not really sure how that plays out, though, especially with Cleric keeping its high level spells.

Note: If you go Wiz 2/Clr 1/Wiz +1, you can actually use Cleric as your primary casting class, giving full progression to Wizard, which means you're only delayed one character level on your spellcasting ultimately, rather than 3. That is MUCH better, but certainly unintended. You can do this due to the Cleric using Ardent mechanics for max spell level (although, unlike the Ardent, the Cleric doesn't force you to pick only 1st level powers at level 1, so you can get away with one Cleric level instead of 2).

You do get double 9ths at level 20 with the basic entry, yes. That's what I intended, for it to be kind of the "capstone" of the class.
Although you do get "full" caster level progression, which is much closer to being as good as full spellcasting progression than it is in vancian, due to how many of the spells scale with augments.

As for how it mixes with the Cleric spellcasting... I've been thinking about it, and the Cleric being the unique snowflake as far as max spell level goes really does muck things up sometimes. Not as much as it might under vancian (again, spells scale with SP expenditure anyway), but still. I'm starting to think I'm placing too much faith in the Ardent...

Primary spellcasting class designation seems to exist only to give that class the shaft on caster levels. Doesn't seem very "primary" to me. Maybe add in a class feature somewhere that provides a benefit for or with the primary casting class (like if Combined Knowledge only let you use your primary class's ability score for your secondary's, instead of both ways, for example).

Heh. You're right. Those names aren't particularly accurate. I'll see what I can do.

Also, here's some nitpicky advice: Check your alphabetization. "Foresight" should come before the "Form of X" spells.

Whoops. Thanks. Fixed.

Working on my own version of this for Pathfinder. Find off, is it fine if I just take your pdf and change only the stuff that needs changed?

Yup, yup. Do what you will. That's what I have those licencing notes for.

I'll probably start my own thread once I have a bit more than just a Sorcerer. But for now, can I get your opinion on my Sorcerer? Spell points as a Psion/Wilder, spells known as Ernir's Sorcerer, Wild Magic works like a Wilder's Wild Surge, and bloodlines work like Oracle mysteries

PF Wilder Wild Surge still grants a ML increase, right? I'd be careful about that. It's possible to get some slightly level-inappropriate abilities that way.
But that may be what you wanted. I, on the other hand, don't think I've handed out a single CL booster that can increase CL above your HD.

I'm not very familiar with the Oracle Mysteries, but they grant spells known, right? That's also something I haven't been giving out too many of. The 3.5 Wilder may not have enough, but with each spell as big as it is now, it probably isn't very hard to give out too many...

[Razanir]

PF Wilder Wild Surge still grants a ML increase, right? I'd be careful about that. It's possible to get some slightly level-inappropriate abilities that way.
But that may be what you wanted. I, on the other hand, don't think I've handed out a single CL booster that can increase CL above your HD.

I'm not very familiar with the Oracle Mysteries, but they grant spells known, right? That's also something I haven't been giving out too many of. The 3.5 Wilder may not have enough, but with each spell as big as it is now, it probably isn't very hard to give out too many...

I figured that if it wasn't (too) broken for the Wilder to have, it should be safe for a Sorcerer to have. And I only took the abilities from Oracle Mysteries, so it's more like PF Sorcerer Bloodlines, but freeform order of abilities

[Roxxy]

Working on my own version of this for Pathfinder. Find off, is it fine if I just take your pdf and change only the stuff that needs changed?

I'll probably start my own thread once I have a bit more than just a Sorcerer. But for now, can I get your opinion on my Sorcerer? Spell points as a Psion/Wilder, spells known as Ernir's Sorcerer, Wild Magic works like a Wilder's Wild Surge, and bloodlines work like Oracle mysteries

If you can use any help with this, PM me. I was going to ask about doing this as well, and two heads are superior to one.

[Razanir]

Actually, my Pathfinder version has evolved and become a system of its own. Design goals for my new PF-based system:
-Spells aren't guaranteed to work
-Psionic not Vancian mechanics
-All PC classes get some amount of spellcasting

Classes:
-Bard. Same as before
-Champion. Paladin – alignment restrictions
-Cleric. Actually Cleric + Monk
-Fighter. Borrows from Magus
-Mystic. Similar to UA Cloistered Cleric
-Ninja. Limited magic rogue
-Ranger. As before, but more spellcasting
-Shaman. UA Totem Barbarian + Druid
-Sorcerer. As before
-Wizard. As before

Also, I'll be migrating to a thread of my own soon

[Ernir]

Actually, my Pathfinder version has evolved and become a system of its own. Design goals for my new PF-based system:
-Spells aren't guaranteed to work
-Psionic not Vancian mechanics
-All PC classes get some amount of spellcasting

Classes:
-Bard. Same as before
-Champion. Paladin – alignment restrictions
-Cleric. Actually Cleric + Monk
-Fighter. Borrows from Magus
-Mystic. Similar to UA Cloistered Cleric
-Ninja. Limited magic rogue
-Ranger. As before, but more spellcasting
-Shaman. UA Totem Barbarian + Druid
-Sorcerer. As before
-Wizard. As before

Also, I'll be migrating to a thread of my own soon

Cool beans.

FWIW, I'd recommend setting yourself small, reachable goals when trying for something that huge. It's frightfully easy to give up on projects like this.

[Ernir]

We're up to 1.10c!

Added two pics (Barkskin and AMF). Shuffled a few words around for clarity.

The Death Domain got a high level granted power I rather like.

Decided to leave the MT and Cleric mostly alone. If you want non-conventional entry to squeeze out more power, I'm not stopping you (as of this version).

A few other PrC changes were made, mostly in accordance with what I said I'd do above.

Except:

Changing it to granting Toughness. Also changing Toughness to not suck. :D

I went back on this. I changed it to a wording similar to the one Improved Toughness used, but I didn't have Secret Health grant Toughness. (Decided that messing with Toughness was kind of a weird tangent on a spellcasting fix).

Also, I changed Magically Gifted so it can be taken more than once, which completes the series of the Secrets stacking with the obviously corresponding feats. And renamed Magically Gifted to Magical Reservoir. "Gifted" doesn't really say anything about what it does.

EDIT: Woah, I have Github participation! For two weeks now!
Umm, will figure out how to merge Soon(TM).

[Garryl]

I'm basing my comments on the GitHub version. It's easier to find the changes there than searching through a PDF.

Didn't notice this until now. Mystic Theurge only grants you spell points for the primary class (and at every level), not the secondary, if I'm reading it right. What is the reasoning behind this?

[Ernir]

I'm basing my comments on the GitHub version. It's easier to find the changes there than searching through a PDF.

Excellent.

I really should revise the "versioning" system I've been using up until now, anyway. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense any more.

Didn't notice this until now. Mystic Theurge only grants you spell points for the primary class (and at every level), not the secondary, if I'm reading it right. What is the reasoning behind this?

I wanted the MT to grant an increase in versatility, but I didn't want to make that versatility come with a huge side dose of extra staying power, mostly because now the spell points are fully exchangeable between the classes.

[Ernir]

Umm, will figure out how to merge Soon(TM).

I guess this qualifies as "soon" on the geological scale.

Posting just to say that I finally took the time to (learn how to) merge.

I'm still alive, just busy as **** these days.

[Yora]

Is there any place where we could look at what you've done so far? I'm currently starting doing a similar thing and I think it might really be quite useful to see how you converted certain spells and I might use them for my game.

For other people, this would be blatantly asking to steal your work, but I guess for us homebrewers it's the great success to have other people actually using our stuff.

[Draz74]

Is there any place where we could look at what you've done so far?

Yeah, just go to the OP of this thread and download the PDF Ernir has linked there. People have already been using this system for a while!

[Ernir]

Is there any place where we could look at what you've done so far? I'm currently starting doing a similar thing and I think it might really be quite useful to see how you converted certain spells and I might use them for my game.

For other people, this would be blatantly asking to steal your work, but I guess for us homebrewers it's the great success to have other people actually using our stuff.

Uhh, a full change log? That's kind of long.

The core system has been translated. All the core spellcasting classes and PrCs have been done. The spells have been done, except for those listed at the end of the spellcasting chapter.

Were you looking for something specific? :P

[Yora]

I was looking exactly for the pdf Drazt mentioned. Just what I needed. Already saved me huge amounts of work.

Also like the illustrations and some of the other references.
When I saw the new spell Shun, I immediately said "Shun the nonbeliever! Shuuuuun!". And only then looked at the next page with the description.

[Ernir]

I was looking exactly for the pdf Drazt mentioned. Just what I needed. Already saved me huge amounts of work.

Good to know.

The document's source is over on Github (also linked in the first post), if you want something more copy-paste-able.

[sreservoir]

Good to know.

The document's source is over on Github (also linked in the first post), if you want something more copy-paste-able.

the pdf's text can be copied from, too, although linebreaks and hyphenation will turn out strangely, but I wouldn't say it's less readable than latex source.

[Ernir]

the pdf's text can be copied from, too, although linebreaks and hyphenation will turn out strangely, but I wouldn't say it's less readable than latex source.

My distaste towards pasting from non-plaintext files may not be entirely rational. :P

[sreservoir]

well, you can always run pdftotext on it. like so. (I cut that one off at 10 kilolines because it's actually kind of long.)

out of curiosity, how do you generally compile the document? I mean, I passed it through latexmk -pdf, but with that much crossreffing going on, the thing looks to need at least three runs to get all the references right, how do you do it?

[Ernir]

well, you can always run pdftotext on it. like so. (I cut that one off at 10 kilolines because it's actually kind of long.)

out of curiosity, how do you generally compile the document? I mean, I passed it through latexmk -pdf, but with that much crossreffing going on, the thing looks to need at least three runs to get all the references right, how do you do it?

I press the PDFLaTeX button in Kile.

And yes, it often runs it three times before it's satisfied.

[sreservoir]

because I, uh, have far too much time, I made a reproduction of the AMF picture using tikz. (I, uh, took some liberties with the details.)

working demonstration is also available, as well as a standalone rendering.

[Ernir]

because I, uh, have far too much time, I made a reproduction of the AMF picture using tikz. (I, uh, took some liberties with the details.)

working demonstration is also available, as well as a standalone rendering.

You're crazy!

I like it.