Thanqol Learns To Draw!

[Thanqol]

Um, Thanquol... If you click 'musings and articles' on the page you just linked, you'll find a small rant about "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" just mentioned. I'd read that if I were you, just to check if it will work for you, I don't know if the rant is right or not, but I'd trust someone who made that page (as he is one of the best artists I saw) more than random book advice.

Aaaa, conflicting advice! I'll give this a read after I finish my homework for the night

Day Eight: No One Would Have Believed...

Today felt really good. I got this finished in about half the time I normally take, I only used models sparingly, and while there's still some weird proportions and odd lines everything just seemed to tighten up and work.

And hey, I lasted more than a week! That's a serious achievement, given my historical trend of seeing my first attempt at anything fail and immediately going emo and giving up.

Not much total time spent on drawing tonight, have some homework to catch up on, but sometime soon I'm going to try those inanimate objects I said I'd try!

Model:

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Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: 50 Minutes
Materials: 2B Pencil, 0.8 Artliner Pen
Music: War of the Worlds: The Musical

[Trazoi]

Um, Thanquol... If you click 'musings and articles' on the page you just linked, you'll find a small rant about "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" just mentioned. I'd read that if I were you, just to check if it will work for you, I don't know if the rant is right or not, but I'd trust someone who made that page (as he is one of the best artists I saw) more than random book advice.

Yeah... I can't comment on the quality of the art teaching myself as I'm an art beginner only got a few chapters in, but I do agree that the book did have a lot of bunk pop psychology in there, trying to tie it all together to some theory of brain hemispheres. And the entire book is somewhat focused on copying images. Maybe it wasn't the best idea to recommend the book - although I did feel I had to qualify I got the "upside-down drawing" exercise from there. (That one is IMO worth trying at least once).

[billtodamax]

Neat thread. I've been thinking about doing something like this.

[SiuiS]

I think my line quality is poor because I've got the habit of making multiple short strokes rather than long smooth ones. It gives me a little more control but you're right, it looks ugly. I'll try to cut down.

I've kept quiet because everything I've said about drawing has started to sound like really bunkum seduction advice. So proceed with caution :/

Paper is like skin. It has it's own texture, a flavor it adds to the lines. It is responsive. For those times when you absolutely want a good picture, use a pencil and make little tiny sketch lines. When you have the outline done and looking good, make one long, dark, slow and continuous stroke through the entire thing. Then erase; the hatch and sketch lines will be lifted first, giving you the single, continuous line you want.

The reason for this is the paper fibers buckle under the pencil lead, like softening and warming a muscle. The lead will follow the path you've already made, since it is easier to fit in the runnel than not, and you are just deepening your previous gouge into the paper's surface.

The downside is you will occasionally hit a point where the paper conspires against you, and it takes titanic will, focus and control to not allow that tiny squiggle the runnel want you to make to become a reality.

Faces also have proportions! But I'll be damned if I can remember all of them off-hand. An eye between the eyes, top of the nose from the centre point of the head, mouth's centre line is 1/3rd of the way down from the bottom of the nose to the chin, ears start at the eyebrows and end at the bottom of the nose. Something like that.

The space from pupil to pupil, tip of nose to bridge of nose, corner of mouth to pupil, edge of lips to other edge of lips, and from one end of an eyebrow to the other are all approximately the exact same distance. This rarely comes in handy, though, since expressions can change the functional layout, and the distance is the same per person, not per species. People are internally consistent, though. That's a plus

To me this thread looks like it's a wake-up call to kick myself into finally putting the hours getting my own cartooning up to scratch. I should get around to launching that webcomic I've always been planning to do in order to force me to learn how to draw.


Have you tried turning your reference picture upside down (and drawing your own image upside down as well)? The benefit of doing that is that it helps you think "I need to draw a line that curves like this" instead of "I am drawing an ear, ears should look like this" (symbolic section of the brain then messes it up).

For the artists in the thread, is there a huge benefit in unlearning a horrible pencil grip? I'm a leftie and I grip my pencil like a fist, tucking the pencil into the base of my thumb and wedging the pencil tip between my pointer and middle fingers. Judging from what I've read it's pretty terrible and it means I hold the pencil close to vertical (an artifact of being a leftie), but it's been my grip since forever and everything else I've tried feels wrong. However it's probably a big reason why I prefer to only do drafts in pencil and then do everything digitially, preferrably with vectors where the lines aren't so dodgy.

You can also horizontal/vertical flip something AFTER YOU DRAW it, then continue to work on it. Using a backlight for this is a great way to break out of a rut where you can only draw, say, a left facing 3/4 profile but not a right one.

Um, Thanquol... If you click 'musings and articles' on the page you just linked, you'll find a small rant about "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" just mentioned. I'd read that if I were you, just to check if it will work for you, I don't know if the rant is right or not, but I'd trust someone who made that page (as he is one of the best artists I saw) more than random book advice.

Sounds like fun. Thank you Commander.

[Thanqol]

I've kept quiet because everything I've said about drawing has started to sound like really bunkum seduction advice. So proceed with caution :/

Seductive, and interesting! Thanks for the advice, it's really helpful. I'm going to try it later tonight!

The space from pupil to pupil, tip of nose to bridge of nose, corner of mouth to pupil, edge of lips to other edge of lips, and from one end of an eyebrow to the other are all approximately the exact same distance. This rarely comes in handy, though, since expressions can change the functional layout, and the distance is the same per person, not per species. People are internally consistent, though. That's a plus

Anatomy, I am gradually learning thee!



Day Nine (and Artosis): Hard Right down Steampunk Lane

Legs gave me trouble with this one, and I discovered that stars are hard. I accidentally regressed to my old grip for a while without noticing, which I wasn't happy to notice, which is partly why a fair few of the lines are dodgy. Overall I'm still making really good progress, I think, and I'm only glancing at my models occasionally for reference rather than the close copying I used to do.

The good thing about these daily pony contest entries is that they don't absorb my entire daily drawing timeslot, so I can spend the rest of the evening trying other things. Tried a few inanimate objects and perspectives, but when they gave me trouble I spent half an hour reading the beginner's guide I got when I started this topic which helped shed some light on how to structure these things.

Overall, feelin' good.

Model:



Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: 1 Hour
Materials: 2B Pencil, 0.4 and 0.8 Artliner Pen
Music: Frozen Synapse Soundtrack

[Kaytara]

Horse legs ARE hard. This might help: http://hippie.nu/~nocte/tutorial-cur...-skeleton.jpeg

[Thanqol]

Horse legs ARE hard. This might help: http://hippie.nu/~nocte/tutorial-cur...-skeleton.jpeg

This does help! Blasted horses.

Day Ten: Productivity

I feel like I've hit a system that really works for me. A lot of my problems in sketching previously have been the result of trying to A) rush things, B) cut straight to a finished image and C) not knowing when to stop with the shading. Taking half an hour or so to sketch out the image with pencil, trying a whole bunch of things and taking the time to get the lines right makes everything work out so much better in completion time. Also, the idea of inking a finished product means that I can get away with not shading it at all and really let myself focus on getting clean, straight lines.

I've still gotta hella ways to go, but I'm really happy with tonight's piece. Makes me hopeful for the future. Gonna develop this particular style a bit more before branching off into something else!

Challenge: Draw a pony eating fruit.

Model:

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Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: 1 Hour 15 mins
Materials: 2B Pencil, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.8 Artliner Pen
Music: Mr. James Dean

[SiuiS]

Classic. You win, ol' Aus. You win.

[Saeyan]

for those times when you absolutely want a good picture

I would contend that the opposite of that approach is more useful: use large, confident (but low-pressure) strokes to get down the main idea quickly, then do the short-stroke thing for the detailed final finish.

[Thanqol]

Conflicting advice! Aaaa!

Day Eleven: Creative Thaumaturgy

Tonight's Mage game was excellent, as always. We dealt with some possessed guys who seemed to think we didn't know anything. We fought some Seers of the Throne who proved just how good guns were in magic duels. I ran over a hundred miles per hour to get away from an 18-wheeler.

And I accidentally built a GIANT SOUL ENGINE out of two cinemas which could project any emotion from the cinemas onto any group of people in LA - or suck any emotion out of LA and infuse it into the people in the cinema. Best accidental doomsday device ever.

Throughout this I was experimenting and playing around with drawing. I got a few decent sketches in and particularly played around with hands. Hands are hard! I've tried structuring them in a stick-figure format with marked joints - is this the way to go, or should I work more on just getting the curves right or what? I've been putting placeholder mittens on my sketches until I figure this out.

Challenge: Draw wings on a Pony

Model: None. This was entirely freehand from memory.

Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: ~1 1/2 hours?
Materials: 2B pencil, 0.8 Artliner Pen
Music: Only the sweet and seductive voice of my Storyteller.

[Domochevsky]

I would contend that the opposite of that approach is more useful: use large, confident (but low-pressure) strokes to get down the main idea quickly, then do the short-stroke thing for the detailed final finish.

I support this notion. >_>

[Kaytara]

I would contend that the opposite of that approach is more useful: use large, confident (but low-pressure) strokes to get down the main idea quickly, then do the short-stroke thing for the detailed final finish.

I third this notion. :D

Even roughly scribbling out the whole picture, at least in terms of where what limb goes, is vital if you don't want to run into the problems of running out of space and/or getting skewed or weird proportions or a sucky composition.

[silversnowe]

I haven't really read through the entire thread, so this may have been answered already, but is there a particular reason (budget, time) why you're not taking in-person lessons? There's nothing wrong with being self-taught, of course, but a good teacher can really speed up the learning process, particularly when you're learning the basics.

[Skavensrule]

I could not get my computer to cooperate when trying to color in the sketch that I did for the Iron Avatar "Scandal" contest but anyone who wants to take a look it head on over to that thread. My intent was to color it and fill in a background but when that didn't work I finally wound up posting the raw sketch. I am not happy with the proportions of the left leg but that was the best one of about ten full sketches and dozens of partials that got ripped up. Even with a model right next to me Drawing is Hard.

Link to thread, post # 47 is the sketch in question. Tried to make the link direct to that post but it didn't work. Sometimes I really hate computers.http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...5&postcount=47

[Thanqol]

I third this notion. :D

Even roughly scribbling out the whole picture, at least in terms of where what limb goes, is vital if you don't want to run into the problems of running out of space and/or getting skewed or weird proportions or a sucky composition.

*Nod nod*

I haven't really read through the entire thread, so this may have been answered already, but is there a particular reason (budget, time) why you're not taking in-person lessons? There's nothing wrong with being self-taught, of course, but a good teacher can really speed up the learning process, particularly when you're learning the basics.

A combination of not knowing where I'd go, memories of enormously unhelpful art classes in high school (if you want paperclip sculptures, I'M YOUR MAN, but I didn't learn jack else) and that the internet is full of really awesome advice. I could look into it if it's something I should be doing.

I could not get my computer to cooperate when trying to color in the sketch that I did for the Iron Avatar "Scandal" contest but anyone who wants to take a look it head on over to that thread. My intent was to color it and fill in a background but when that didn't work I finally wound up posting the raw sketch. I am not happy with the proportions of the left leg but that was the best one of about ten full sketches and dozens of partials that got ripped up. Even with a model right next to me Drawing is Hard.

If I posted this right this is the Iron Avatar, "Scandal" thread.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197565

To link to specific posts, click the #number at the top right of the post and then link to that URL.

I can't provide specific advice because I am teh suck, but I can say that getting out and doing stuff is awesome.

[Thanqol]

Day Twelve: Every Day Is Bondage Day

Experimenting with new poses. That's where it's at.

Right now when I sketch people I tend to produce half decent sketches, but usually with no resemblance to the person I was sketching. Gradually getting better at drawing what I decided to draw rather than drawing whatever my hands give me.

Challenge: Draw a pony as a colt

Model:

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Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: ~1 1/2 hours
Materials: 2B pencil, 0.8, 0.2 Artliner Pen
Music: Hahahahahaha! (I can't believe I listened to that for over an hour)

[Thanqol]

Day Thirteen: Shades of Defeat

This was mostly playing around with some more shading, which I've been avoiding for a while. I tried a bunch of different pencil techniques and types over this to get a better feel for what these looked like in practice.

Challenge: Draw a Pony Dreaming

Model:

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Finished Sketch:

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Time Taken: 1 1/2 Hours
Materials: 6B, 4B, 2B HB and H pencils, .8 Artliner pen
Music: Yeah

[Kaytara]

Technically, you can't draw a pony as a colt, only as a foal, which is gender-neutral just like pony, instead of male like colt and stallion.

I like how you gave the mane its own cast shadow. The horn is rounded and should be softly shaded into darkness too, though.

To be frank, though, I don't really see what you're trying to achieve with these pony sketches. At this stage, drawing is about trying to capture a particular object with a particular look on paper and make it look accurate in regards of anatomy and general recognition. Ideally, you can look at the end result, compare it to whatever references you were using, and see where you went wrong.

Using very, very heavily stylised figures seems very counterproductive to me, since nobody knows how they're actually supposed to look in terms of anatomy and 3-D shape and where which highlight is supposed to go.

It's the same reason why it's considered a bad idea for beginners to draw in anime or chibi, or any style using heavily distorted proportions or shapes. If you can wave away inaccuracies (both to viewers and to yourself) as "it's just the style", that's the very antithesis of trying to progress.

The general approach is, make realism your b**ch, then learn to distort it.

I'm aware that you do (heaps upon heaps of) other, non-pony work. I'm just complaining that all you show is the pony work. :P

[SiuiS]

I would contend that the opposite of that approach is more useful: use large, confident (but low-pressure) strokes to get down the main idea quickly, then do the short-stroke thing for the detailed final finish.

Listening to everyone who chimed in, it sounds like I agree but we are talking about different steps. I also draw small, so what is to me a long line is probably a normal one to others. I'm an idiot savant as far as giving drawing advice goes.

To be frank, though, I don't really see what you're trying to achieve with these pony sketches. At this stage, drawing is about trying to capture a particular object with a particular look on paper and make it look accurate in regards of anatomy and general recognition. Ideally, you can look at the end result, compare it to whatever references you were using, and see where you went wrong.

Using very, very heavily stylised figures seems very counterproductive to me, since nobody knows how they're actually supposed to look in terms of anatomy and 3-D shape and where which highlight is supposed to go.

It's the same reason why it's considered a bad idea for beginners to draw in anime or chibi, or any style using heavily distorted proportions or shapes. If you can wave away inaccuracies (both to viewers and to yourself) as "it's just the style", that's the very antithesis of trying to progress.

The general approach is, make realism your b**ch, then learn to distort it.

I'm aware that you do (heaps upon heaps of) other, non-pony work. I'm just complaining that all you show is the pony work. :P

I think you are forgetting something, friend. Drawing is infinitely easier when drawing is fun. Making a smidgen of progress a day is better than not making a heap of progress because you dislike the lesson.

That being said, he's got you there Thanqol. Build up the skill to convert 3d to a drawing, even if it's no fun. It will be invaluable and very entertaining once you do figure it out.

As for hands... They are interesting constructs. I took an out by learning amine methods (which have indeed prevented me from really progressing), and years of bodywork and anatomy have slowly filtered in corrected my more egregious mistakes. I am content to be a polished novice artist, however. I suspect you have more ambition

[Thanqol]

Technically, you can't draw a pony as a colt, only as a foal, which is gender-neutral just like pony, instead of male like colt and stallion.

I like how you gave the mane its own cast shadow. The horn is rounded and should be softly shaded into darkness too, though.

To be frank, though, I don't really see what you're trying to achieve with these pony sketches. At this stage, drawing is about trying to capture a particular object with a particular look on paper and make it look accurate in regards of anatomy and general recognition. Ideally, you can look at the end result, compare it to whatever references you were using, and see where you went wrong.

Using very, very heavily stylised figures seems very counterproductive to me, since nobody knows how they're actually supposed to look in terms of anatomy and 3-D shape and where which highlight is supposed to go.

It's the same reason why it's considered a bad idea for beginners to draw in anime or chibi, or any style using heavily distorted proportions or shapes. If you can wave away inaccuracies (both to viewers and to yourself) as "it's just the style", that's the very antithesis of trying to progress.

The general approach is, make realism your b**ch, then learn to distort it.

I'm aware that you do (heaps upon heaps of) other, non-pony work. I'm just complaining that all you show is the pony work. :P

I did not know this! My understanding, born from complete lack of understanding, was I should start with cartoons and stylized pieces and work my way up to realistic drawings. I shall switch it up immediately!

I took to showing only the pony work because they're finished sketches done for a daily contest while my other stuff is usually half-complete practice scribbles. In retrospect, that is not an excuse!

[Kaytara]

I think you are forgetting something, friend. Drawing is infinitely easier when drawing is fun. Making a smidgen of progress a day is better than not making a heap of progress because you dislike the lesson.

I would suggest that the key to making drawing fun is choice of object, not of style. As in, make drawing fun by drawing something you like drawing, not drawing it in a way that makes it "fun" and satisfying because the style makes mistakes less obvious and more difficult to judge.

Like many other girls, I started by drawing horses and unicorns and dragons and stuff. I didn't emulate a particular style or anything, but just tried to make them preeetttyyy. Sometimes I'd see a gorgeous painting online or in a book and get that "OMG I want to do something like that!" feeling and dash off to draw or paint. Eventually, I watched a tutorial on my Spirit: Stallion of the Cimarron DVD that took the whole "draw skeleton & joints first, then fill muscles and flesh in" approach. I finally started looking at photos of skeletons and anatomy drawings and such. It was SO. MUCH. EASIER. It took longer, but the end result was better, and eventually, after you develop a feeling for it, you can more or less skip the skeleton step.

Anyway, I contend that drawing is fun when you draw something you like (if you don't have a particular passion for horsies/robots/whatever, fanart of your favourite thing ever can be a good choice), and you feel like you're getting better at it, so the effort feels rewarding rather than frustrating.

Taking the "start from stylised drawings" approach is very undrestandable, but ultimately very much putting the cart before the horse. ^^;

[Saeyan]

yep everything Kaytara said. Since we're sharing life stories now, here's mine in case anything useful can be gleaned from within:

1. tracing Pokemon manga
2. copying (the same) Pokemon manga
3. buying/borrowing and mostly reading instead of drawing from how-to-draw-manga books, but they introduced the build-from-stickman/skeleton approach which in retrospect was really the key thing
4. ???, wasted 20% (back then) of my life repeating step 3. Another 5% on randomly copying (quite poorly - and without thinking) photos off the internet to fulfil some school requirements. But I think this helped build familiarity with pencils
5. started trying to learn to draw 'realistic' things, failed miserably
6. still trying

[Thanqol]

yep everything Kaytara said. Since we're sharing life stories now, here's mine in case anything useful can be gleaned from within:

1. tracing Pokemon manga
2. copying (the same) Pokemon manga
3. buying/borrowing and mostly reading instead of drawing from how-to-draw-manga books, but they introduced the build-from-stickman/skeleton approach which in retrospect was really the key thing
4. ???, wasted 20% (back then) of my life repeating step 3. Another 5% on randomly copying (quite poorly - and without thinking) photos off the internet to fulfil some school requirements. But I think this helped build familiarity with pencils
5. started trying to learn to draw 'realistic' things, failed miserably
6. still trying

... well, if I wanted something which had clear, concrete instructions I'd go to IKEA.

I've still got a really good feeling about this project as a whole, though, because even if I draw a bunch of jellyfishesque abominations, like tonight's attempts at hands, I still feel like I'm learning stuff. Every picture I do I try to include at least one experiment. The sketch I put up tonight what I really wanted to learn from it was what different pencil leads looked like side by side and play around with shading techniques.

And getting direct, "Don't do that, do this" advice is really how I learn the best, so this thread has been amazing. If I haven't thanked everyone who chips in with advice recently, I need to do it again.

[silversnowe]

If you really want to learn how to shade well, start with real life objects and start simple. The first thing I ever drew was a white, clay ball on a white table, with a single light source. If you think this is way too simple for you, it's not. It's very helpful in learning how lighting works and how to shade well.

And I still recommend a teacher if you can find a good one, preferably private. Classroom teachers don't have the time to devote to you as there is not a good teacher to student ratio. If you can't or don't want to, at least find a friend who is an artist who is willing to watch you while you draw. There are a lot of little things that you can do that won't seem apparent to you, but will be obvious to an observer. The advantage of this over posting your drawings is that they can help you during your process, while forum-goers can only give you advice when you're already done your drawing.

[SiuiS]

I would suggest that the key to making drawing fun is choice of object, not of style. As in, make drawing fun by drawing something you like drawing, not drawing it in a way that makes it "fun" and satisfying because the style makes mistakes less obvious and more difficult to judge.

That is actually what I meant - that I believe he is drawing/posting ponies because they are a fun subject matter, not that he should stick with the style. My apologies if I came off otherwise, friend

If you really want to learn how to shade well, start with real life objects and start simple. The first thing I ever drew was a white, clay ball on a white table, with a single light source. If you think this is way too simple for you, it's not. It's very helpful in learning how lighting works and how to shade well.

The devil take that clay ball, and swallow it sideways! That is hard. I've been thinking about the multiple shadow types on an orb for a couple days now. Never got the hang of it...

Congratulations, Thanqol. I am about two weeks away from feeling inferior enough to actually start learning the craft, instead of living vicariously through your progress. I hope you're happy!

[SiuiS]

Double post :/

[Thanqol]

The devil take that clay ball, and swallow it sideways! That is hard. I've been thinking about the multiple shadow types on an orb for a couple days now. Never got the hang of it...

Congratulations, Thanqol. I am about two weeks away from feeling inferior enough to actually start learning the craft, instead of living vicariously through your progress. I hope you're happy!

As usual, the best part of this thread is inspiring people to join in

Will look into getting a teacher too.

Day Fourteen: Why won't people be more lazy?

Sat down in my lounge room today and started drawing. I started off with trying to draw my dog, thinking "He's lazy enough to not have to worry!" I quickly discovered even lazy dogs twitch and react to every single noise coming from the kitchen, which threw me off at first. I quickly began speeding up my process, trying to get as many important details in before the dog moved again. It was a challenge, but a fun one.

Then I moved on to the next most immobile creature in my house: My dad when watching the game. I discovered roughly the same problem. It was interesting, though, and I'm going to do that more often.

Also tried another bunch of inanimate objects, with varying degrees of success.

Finished Sketch:
#1: Dog

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#2: Dad

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Time Taken: 2 hours
Materials: 2B Pencil
Music: Sexy Naughty Bitchy Me

[Ninjaman]

Scary dog. They both look quite... blurry i guess.

[Domochevsky]

Yah, needs better picture quality and/or lighting. >_>

[Thanqol]

The lines themselves are really sketchy and blurry because those were my worklines. I would have hardened them into stronger and darker ones that would show up better digitally, but both of my subjects shifted before I had the chance to do that. I considered going on from memory, but by then it was getting late.

Still gettin' around to that scanner, I promise.