Out of Character

[Captain Alien]

I am not the only one who noticed this, but the only thread I've seen in which someone dares to admit it contained unauthorized OotS edits and was deleted shortly thereafter. I am, therefore, bringing this up once again.

Ever since the Linear Guild came back in #788, we've only been shown a few lines from Thog and Zz'dtri, whose return surprised everyone.

But here's the issue:
Thog.
What we used to be shown
Mostly: Simple, misconstructed and childlish sentences. Sometimes absurd.
-thog crush talky-man!
-ooooo! not-nale smooth as baby butt.
-nale extra smart. nale not get lost.
...
thog not see any.
...
oh no! nale get lost in witch's forest!
-thog brought breadcrumbs!
thog not want to hurt not-nale. thog like not-nale. thog want all thog's friends to get ice-cream together.

Rarely: Random sophisticated sentences arbitrarily misconstructed. Played for laughs. Most of them are funny per se.
thog reluctantly forced to agree!
oh, little ice cream friends! thog delays boredom-driven rampage only for you!


What we are being shown (788-791)
Frequent: Misconstructed sentences, but not as simple as they used to be (i.e. frequent unnecessary adverbs, slightly more complicated syntactic structures. Have a look.). These could be considered so:
actually, thog hazy on that. did thog kill them off-panel?
'nuff comedy. thog now crush talky-man! thog unstoppable, like sink with broken drain.

Some: Sophisticated sentences arbitrarily misconstructed, like those which used to be funny because they seemed out of place, or clever taunts (these were never said by thog in the first place). In this case, they are as frequent as those unintelligent, breaking the old balance. In the past, these were infrequent, while now they are even more usual than the unintelligent sentences.
no, but thog thankful for update on talky-man's relationship status.
thog will always treasure adventure with talky-man. it featured non-traditional panel layout.
thog elegant in thog's simplicity.

Frequent: Slightly misconstructed, but otherwise correct and not simple at all. These could be delivered by any character. In Thog's first appearance, there were some rule-related ones, but there hasn't been any since then (not that they were even frequent in the first place.)
yes. thog remember thog had to power attack to cut through-
then how talky man use intelligence in fight with thog?
sure. thog already knows how to use best best ability score in fight.


Some: Truly simple, Thog-wise sentences, like those he once said.
thog says: "fudge the police!"
thog's name is thog.

Thog has otherwise shown the same features he used to, except for a certain evilness in his speech and look. This has been rescued from the time before he was thrown into Cliffport's prison with Elan. He showed a certain genuine malice in his face. For an example, have a look at this.

Zz'dtri.
What we used to be shown (43-65)
Total panels: 32
Total words: 26
Total verbs: 3
Words per panel ratio: 0,8 words per panel
Verbs per panel ratio: 0,09

What we are being shown (789-790)
Panels as undisguised or hostile Zzd'tri: 7
Total words: 29
Total verbs: 6
Elf ambassador+Zz'dtri words per panel ratio: 3 words per panel
Zz'dtri words per panel ratio: 4 words per panel.
Zz'dtri verbs per panel: 0,8

Even counting those panels where Zz'dtri is disguised as an elf ambassador, an almost circumstancial presence used for creating a bigger surprise, it seems that the ratio is 3 words/panel, which is more than twice the original ratio. What are all these maths for? Well, they are intended to explain that Zz'dtri's speech is completely different from the original one. If we hadn't been told that he is Zz'dtri, there would be no way to know.

CONCLUSION:
Both Thog and Zz'dtri have suffered from character derailment. It is obvious that there have been changes. I will not discuss whether this is for the good or not. Now you can choose to let Subjectivity defend the sacred immutability of things, or admit that things have changed. What do you think?

[Lateral]

Zz'dtri was never really in very many strips except as background in the early arcs. Even the battle between him and V lasted only a single strip, and he talked more in those than most others. He doesn't have to be near-silent, just quiet- V isn't quite as verbose as (s)he used to be. Besides, two comics? Yeah, not an adequate source pool.

Honestly, I think this is kind of an overreaction. Those traits in the two that have lessened? They were pretty over-the-top; there's nothing wrong with toning them down a bit, and the Giant's writing has changed over time to a much more plot-and-character driven style rather than a gag style so that those sorts of traits aren't flanderized as much as they once were. It's not really character developement, it's more author developement, and calling it 'derailment' is pretty damn excessive.

[Mando Knight]

Really? They're getting more one-on-one dialogue than before, that's all. Zz'dtri was content to let the others talk for him, but without Nale the blabbermouth or Sabine to serve as speakers, he has to reply himself. Note that despite that, he's still barely talking compared to the others. Look at the sizes of speech bubbles... V talks a lot compared to Z.

Thog is still the childish goof that he was before. Yes, he's gotten a little wordier than before, but Thog's Thogginess isn't measured in the number of words he uses incorrectly, it's measured in how he's both absurd and sensible at the same time, how he's a lovable oaf because of his absurdity and penchant for violence rather than in spite of it.

[weeping eagle]

I refuse to comment on this before the standard deviation of each character's WPP has been calculated and posted.

[Thanatosia]

I think you are reaching.

First - character development can happen, even off screen, and a good bit of time has elapsed.
Second - The characters in question don't have a ton of screen time, even Thog, but most especially Zzditri, you really dont have much to establish a baseline to go off of.
Fourth - the situations are just different and the characters seem to behaving naturally in them. Yes Z is talking a bit more, but Z never had to speak for himself before.

[Captain Alien]

and the Giant's writing has changed over time to a much more plot-and-character driven style rather than a gag style so that those sorts of traits aren't flanderized as much as they once were.

Indeed; there's nothing wrong with avoiding flanderization. But this is not like that. This is a standardization of every character's personality and (most importantly) speech. If the development brings complexity, that's alright. But making characters speak as they didn't use to for no reason at all is not alright. There was no need for Zz'dtri to talk so much. He never spoke more than was strictly necessary, and he's doing it now. It could have been avoided, maintaining the feeling of continuity.

[Gift Jeraff]

The comic's gotten wordier over time, as was apparent by the font shrinking between books after 5 or so years of being the same size.

I feared this would happen to Thog before he reappeared, but overall I think it's been fine. I find it's hard to tell a huge difference when compared to the few strips that actually prominently featured Thog actively interacting with another character, since for the most part he was just spouting nonsense on the sidelines. The main "problems" I can see are the uses of "you" in #788 and some of the adverbs.

And I didn't even consider Zz'dtri a character before, so I guess nothing from him can seem out-of-character to me.

EDIT: And I tend to take everything before the redesign (#198) with a grain of salt. Thog's old genuine cruelty and the entirety of Zz'dtri's character were from that era, so their absence doesn't bother me. Much like how no one complains that the MitD no longer acts the way he did in book 1.

[Dr.Epic]

I don't really see the difference.

Zz'dtri had little character development when he first appeared, meaning most of the stuff he does isn't really breaking character. He talks more? Well, he still barely talks. He's still condensing phrases to the bare minimum amount of words in my opinion and his word count is still low.

As for Thog, again, he still doesn't seem out of character. He still thinks brute force is the best solution a simple, brutish, barbaric notion. As for speech, well it kind goes the same for Zz'dtri: his explanations in that situation require more words.

Summation: some things require more words to express.

[Captain Alien]

First - character development can happen, even off screen, and a good bit of time has elapsed.
Second - The characters in question don't have a ton of screen time, even Thog, but most especially Zzditri, you really dont have much to establish a baseline to go off of.
Fourth - the situations are just different and the characters seem to behaving naturally in them. Yes Z is talking a bit more, but Z never had to speak for himself before.

1: As I stated, making each character talk as they have never talked for no good reason is not justifiable.
2. The problem with rescuing a character from the past, and especially such a minor one, is exactly that. If the "new" one doesn't adjust to the "old" one, then you could make a new character out of nowhere and it would still be the same.
4. Because he never needed to do it. He doesn't need it now either, he's just talking when he is not asked anything.

The main "problems" I can see are the uses of "you" in #788 and some of the adverbs.

It's not only that, as I said. Those small details make a huge difference when you analyze it.

For those who say I'm overreacting, I tell you that I wouldn't say this if I hadn't noticed it as soon as I read through the last strips, and if I hadn't already read more than one post saying exactly this (except for the WPP ratio thing).

[Fiery Diamond]

I don't really think there's much difference at all for Z, to be honest. Yes, he's talking more, but he's still barely talking. He didn't talk enough to be a real character before, and I suspect he will actually be a real character now, not simply defeated and done with. Therefore, he NEEDS to talk more. He's still barely talking, so he hasn't really changed.

As for thog...I agree somewhat, and it makes me think of that other thread claiming thog is a genius. Maybe he got an Int boost somehow?

[Gurgeh]

Both Thog and Zz'dtri have suffered from character derailment

Get your newspeak out of here.

In regards to the topic, I have to disagree abou Zz'dtri. He's still closemouthed and he still does most of his talking with his spells. I obviously can't speak for anyone else, but the moment I saw "Flesh to Stone" coming from off-panel in grey speech, I knew it was him. Sure, he's not exactly the same as he was back in the Linear Guild's first appearance - but then, who is? The early comics characterised almost the whole cast quite differently from now. Team Evil in particular were played for laughs far more often at that time than they are now, Xykon in particular. Some of this has come from new directions the plot has taken, but much of it is simply a result of the evolution of the comic as a whole; as mentioned above, it's now primarily about plot with jokes coming second, while it started off as comedy with a plot added simply to give some direction. The only reason Zz'dtri's changes seem so jarring is that he's been gone for more than 700 strips, while all the other characters have changed gradually.

As far as Thog goes, much of the same applies - for all that we've known the Linear Guild were back in the game since the IFCC, Thog himself hasn't had a talking appearance since 458. It's been even longer since he had an extended dialogue scene, and the last time he bantered with someone he was fighting... was actually the last time he fought Roy, back in the dungeon of Dorukan. Once again, it's really just a matter of the comic changing over time.

Thog's dialogue in 791 is even more relevant, because it's making a point: Roy's character build really isn't smart. He's supposed to have "decent wisdom and charisma" and presumably enough intelligence for his father to have thought him capable of becoming a wizard, but his two-handed power-attacking fighter build just lets those stats go to waste. Mechanically, Roy has disadvantaged himself by choosing to be a single-classed fighter - he'd have gotten a lot more mileage out of being a cleric, a paladin, or even a fighter/wizard gish. Now obviously he wouldn't do any of those things because he wants to be a single-classed fighter, but that choice has hamstrung him in combat.

Thog, on the other hand, knows exactly what he is: dumb muscle. For all that he's a complete idiot, he's far smarter than Roy in a metagaming sense, because every part of his character build plays to his strengths. That's what makes him smarter than Roy in this context: Roy's build is basically identical to Thog's, but it's based on a far less one-dimensional stat spread: as a result, Roy simply can't compete.

So, uh, no. Thog and Zz'dtri haven''t really changed, at least not in any way that every single character in the comic hasn't also changed.

[The Dark Fiddler]

1: As I stated, making each character talk as they have never talked for no good reason is not justifiable.

The reason can probably been attributed to the fact that they've grown and changed since we last saw them. Characterization Marches On.

2. The problem with rescuing a character from the past, and especially such a minor one, is exactly that. If the "new" one doesn't adjust to the "old" one, then you could make a new character out of nowhere and it would still be the same.

Technically nearly every role in the story could be filled with a new character. Rich wanted to use Z and Thog, so he did. They make more sense than new characters would too.

4. Because he never needed to do it. He doesn't need it now either, he's just talking when he is not asked anything.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion. He's still barely saying anything, and it's hardly an excessive amount. Even quiet characters talk occasionally.

[FujinAkari]

I think you have "discovered" a symptom but are mis-identifying the cause.

Thog and Z have formerly shown in exclusively support roles... they didn't have to put on the exposition hat and so never had to say anything but comedic one-liners. Now they are put in situations where they have information that must be imparted to the audience.

So yes, there are some slight character changes... this is not character breaking and calling it derailment is intellectually dishonest. Any character will behave differently when filling a different role in a narritive, and expecting characters to only -ever- fulfill a single role is issuing a death sentence for the strip.

I think you're blowing this out of proportion.

Agreed, Z is succinct to V's verbose, and he still is. No character change has occured.

[JonestheSpy]

I think this thread is an interesting example of selective memory and preconceptions clashing with reality. Thog has consistently been able to throw out complex sentences for humorous effect. Is the line about non-traditional panel layout any more advanced than 'Thog fears he will never again know the majesty of the Gumdrop Mountains'? Of course not.

We're not even talking about 'legitimate character development' here, Thog is just talking like he always has.

Roy's character build really isn't smart. He's supposed to have "decent wisdom and charisma" and presumably enough intelligence for his father to have thought him capable of becoming a wizard, but his two-handed power-attacking fighter build just lets those stats go to waste. Mechanically, Roy has disadvantaged himself by choosing to be a single-classed fighter - he'd have gotten a lot more mileage out of being a cleric, a paladin, or even a fighter/wizard gish. Now obviously he wouldn't do any of those things because he wants to be a single-classed fighter, but that choice has hamstrung him in combat.

Roy was not 'built', he is a smart, strong guy who wanted to be a fighter. Yes, all the optimizers hate fighters, but anyone actually you know, reading the strip should be able to notice that Roy hasn't disadvantaged himself at all.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Even quiet characters talk occasionally.

Indeed.

I myself am a quiet character. In real life, I mean. But get me in the right mood. I can talk your ear off. And then there are the days when I’m not just quiet, but virtually mute. My normal manner of speaking is somewhere between those extreems. A person’s verbosity can vary quite a bit from day to day, hour to hour, and situation to situation.

Zz’dtri’s adventure in the Dungeon of Dorukan with the Order was, what?, a few hours? For all we know he was in a bad mood at the time and was actually quieter than usual.

[Jackson]

I think you're cherry-picking Thog's dialogue for a fairly contrived point. You're also being inconsistent in your syntactical analyses; sentences that you consider 'Thog-like' pre-788 are now only 'slightly misconstructed, but otherwise correct.' You're also ignoring instances, sometimes in the very comics you've chosen of evidence, of 'old' Thog using 'new' Thog's 'derailed' speech patterns. The fact of the matter is, as soon as Thog made it into the ranks of recurring characters he became more likely to speak complexly with only his improper proper noun usage distinguishing him, rather than the one-note Hulk speak of his first appearance. His famous Nale/nail/not-Nale speech is a great case in point: the sentences are complex and barely misconstructed, it's just his idiosyncratic verb usage that makes it borderline incomprehensible. In other words, if your argument is that Thog's ability to speak in complex sentences with only a minimum of 'token' misconstruction signifies a character derailment, your thread is hundreds of strips too late.

On Zz'dtri: he was basically a background character in his first appearances, and was never in much of a position to talk; the fact that he's suddenly slightly more talkative without Nale around doesn't prove much. Considering the elapses time of over a year between previous and current appearances, the changed circumstances, and the incredibly slight difference shown so far, you're overreaching.

Finally, I think it'd be a mistake to claim that characterization is primarily verbal in a visual medium, which is what webcomics, even ones as prone to verbosity as OoTS, are. There's a lot more to what makes a character than how often one uses verbs, or how adeptly one uses proper nouns. Now, if they acted in ways that were radically different than their original appearances, I'd have to concede your point. But what, ignoring your verbal fixation, exactly is out of character about their recent appearances?

[Gurgeh]

Roy was not 'built', he is a smart, strong guy who wanted to be a fighter. Yes, all the optimizers hate fighters, but anyone actually you know, reading the strip should be able to notice that Roy hasn't disadvantaged himself at all.

Roy seems disadvantaged enough right now. For all Roy's brains, his combat tactics almost never do anything to take advantage of them. Thog has a point when he challenges Roy to name any mechanical benefits his vastly superior intelligence provides. It doesn't, and it's not just "because he's a fighter" - it's because he's a fighter whose skillset seems wholly tailored towards a style of fighting that ignores all of the benefits his mental stats can provide. It's not a matter of "fighters are underpowered" - I was never saying anything like that at all - it's a matter of Roy choosing to fight in a manner that throws away many of his natural advantages. There's simply no benefit to making every combat a "rush in and power attack until they're not moving" fight when your opponent is much better at the tactic than you are.

I'm not saying that Roy shouldn't have been a fighter; he made a conscious decision to take up the life of a warrior in order to both uphold his family's heritage and piss off his dad. My point is that Roy's choices as a fighter have almost universally been "dumb brawler" ones that don't play to his strengths. There are plenty of game mechanics that reward a "smart" fighter build - the whole Combat Expertise feat tree, for instance - and Roy, by all appearances, has ignored them in favour of doing essentially what Thog does, only worse.

Regardless of whether or not it's a justifiable choice (and I'd say in the end it probably is), it's not a very smart one. Roy is a pure fighter because he's trying to make a point, and to Thog that doesn't make any sense at all. This is the guy who multiclassed to Fighter for two bonus feats, remember? Thog's game-mechanical choices are fairly shrewd given the initial hand he was dealt in terms of race and statistics. He's min/maxed up the wazoo, and in his and Roy's current situation it really is looking like the smarter choice. More to the point, Thog doesn't know why Roy insists on fighting the way he does, so Roy's choices seem even less smart to Thog.

And, y'know, it's okay not to be smart all the time. There's no rule written down saying that a character has to do no wrong in order to be likeable. Prior to V's god mode and subsequent repentance, I found Roy to be the most interesting character in the party, and he's still a solid second.

[ThePhantasm]

Its been a long time since we've seen either over them. There are things that happen called leveling up and character development. I don't think these two are really out of character at all.

[SPoD]

Both Thog and Zz'dtri have suffered from character derailment. It is obvious that there have been changes. I will not discuss whether this is for the good or not. Now you can choose to let Subjectivity defend the sacred immutability of things, or admit that things have changed. What do you think?

I think you should learn how to make a point without randomly bolding words, making "demands" that we "admit" things, or claiming that you are the only one who "dares" to think something. Because I have no idea why we're supposed to care at all about everything you've said here, but I feel like you're somehow attacking us all for not rising up and breaking down Rich's door.

Their speech patterns have changed a little. So what? This comic has been running for eight years, things change. Writers change. Characters change. It's not a personal attack on you that they do. Most readers don't care, as long as it's a.) in the ballpark, and b.) entertaining. And both of these are.

[ThePhantasm]

Actually, SPoD brings up a great point. Check out this post, folks:

the only thread I've seen in which someone dares to admit it

Well woo hoo to you.The implication being that no one here "dares" criticize Rich. The real reason that we aren't making these criticisms could be that we don't see the problem because there isn't one, not because we are blind fans.

All the things you point out can be explained by something called character development, rather than derailment. Derailment would be if, say, Sabine suddenly showed up and was a good guy for hastily explained reasons. Development is Thog being slightly smarter, or Zz talking slightly more. These are slight changes to characters that we haven't seen in ages.

[Raistlin82]

Please.
Ok, first of all... the author is God.
If he wants the characters to evolve in his stories, they just freakin' do. Calling him out with pompous accuses like "OUT OF CHARACTER" or "CHARACTER DERAILMENT" just makes you ridiculous (I'm not even getting into the whole "counting word ratio per panel" thing, because I am a mercyful person).
Narrative is made of flat characters and round characters. Flat characters remain always the same. Round characters develop and evolve. To make a good story, you need both, and actually you need more of the latter (thank God!).
That being said, this is not the case.

Zz'dtri, to be brought back, needed to be changed to an actual character from a joke character. Actually, he was "a joke without the character": there was no substance to start with, so to make him work, the writer had to give him some.This requires communication, because that's what characters do: they communicate. He's not mute, so he communicates by talking. Period. He just goes from "talking very little" to "talking very little... but a bit more". Big deal.

Thog... well, Thog is always the same lovable idiot we always knew. Even in the freakin' last page (791, Don't get MAD), he is the same dork as he's always been. He's absent minded (just like in his first appearance), he doesn't understand Roy's expressions, he confuses two different words because he misspells them, he has childish reactions, etc...
The only difference is that, for once, he makes a joke that is longer than usual (panel 7-8-9... not too long, mind you). Which, of course, requires him to use more words than usual. While still talking like a caveman all the time.
Whooo, another big deal!

[aduboo29]

I'm going to have to agree with-.. just about everyone. Sure, Thog is being a touch more witty than usual, but this is the first time we have seen Thog engage in a one-on-one hostile situation since-.. well, the last time they did this, as said. The comic has changed since then, and Thog has probably changed too. Not much, admittedly, but I can concede that he is SLIGHTLY more clever than usual, perhaps because - as he said himself - he is in his element and knows what he's doing, whereas Roy is fumbling for straws in a fight he's not really got any aces in.

Zz'dtri can't "break character" because he never had character. He's still said barely any more words than you have fingers and toes since his reappearance. He's not talking our ear off or anything. I really fail to see the issue.

[Tvtyrant]

I offer the OP a cookie for going through so much trouble. I personally don't think its a big deal, but I also was slightly nonplussed by Thog in the latest comic. But as a side character he can basically be molded however Rich wants without me caring; its not like V suddenly turned into Darth Vader or something. That would be silly.

Also, I believe that Thog's new axe is amazing looking.

[Studoku]

I am not the only one who noticed this, but the only thread I've seen in which someone dares to admit it contained unauthorized OotS edits and was deleted shortly thereafter. I am, therefore, bringing this up once again.

The other posts in this thread disporve your other points far more eloquently than I could; anything I post about them would just be another summary of why you are wrong.

What I do recommend is that you read Ctrl Alt Del and comment about it on the forums there. Learn what it actually is to be a part of a forum where admins will censor you for disagreeing with the author before you complain about it here.

[Jay R]

They are in different situations. This is the first time for either of them in which he is the only person on his side present. (Yes, Thog and Elan weren't on the same side for a couple of strips in jail, but again, that's a different situation. Support staff does not react the same way a single individual does.

To put it another way, my speech patterns are different in front of my boss, in a crowd, than they are in a one-on-one situation.

[Caractacus]

To continue the response, Zz'dtri is not only in a different situation, but he is also in a new role in more than one way, Firstly, he is now a character rather than a joke (as has been pointed out), but secondly, his relationship with V has, like a fine wine, developed with age.

Now, he has never liked V, but when the two parties met, it was by chance, so we know it was an unplanned meeting. Therefore, they started of with no preconceived opinions. They began to dislike each other intensely, but almost immediately their fight was over.

NOW, however, we have a Zz'dtri that has had a year to look forward to his rematch with V. He claims that he 'never stopped' working for Nale and so he knew that this day was coming.

As V might say, if we seek a reason for any perceived increase in verbosity, the likelihood is that his current tendency to wax prolix stems as much from the schadenfreude he is experiencing as a result of the exigencies of V's situation as from any other reason for greater loquacity.

[Gift Jeraff]

So I was looking back at the island orc tribe part, and is there really a big difference between, say, #555 and #788? They have a wide vocabulary and their sentences are long-winded.

In fact, it seems like Thog and full-blooded orcs are supposed to be a parody of typical Hulk Speak in that they use the conventions (all lowercase letters, no first-person pronouns, poor verb conjugation), yet their sentences are still long, perfectly understandable, and sometimes thoughtful.

[Herald Alberich]

So I was looking back at the island orc tribe part, and is there really a big difference between, say, #555 and #788? They have a wide vocabulary and their sentences are long-winded.

In fact, it seems like Thog and full-blooded orcs are supposed to be a parody of typical Hulk Speak in that they use the conventions (all lowercase letters, no first-person pronouns, poor verb conjugation), yet their sentences are still long, perfectly understandable, and sometimes thoughtful.

Clearly, Nale recruited Thog when he was only partway through grammar school.

[Captain Alien]

Well, I would answer to all of you, but there are too many arguments there so I'll try to be brief.

My point was: There has been a great change on two characters. Some of you still see those characters as exactly the same as they used to, but most of you have agreed with what I've said: Rich has changed both characters (Especially Zz'dtri, but also Thog). The way I see it, it is big enough to notice and I personally dislike it. I consider it derailment since they are acting as they never did. I think the overreaction this thread has created comes from the "Out of character" and "derailment" things.

In fact, most of you have agreed with almost everything I said, except those who have disrespectfully attacked me and my points and my perfectly legitimate bold words (pun unintended).

[Comet]

Rich moves on as a writer. Thog has grand off-screen adventures that give him new insight into the world and a loaned vocabulary of fancy phrases. You have a nice essay there, but I don't think this is quite as dramatic as you make it out to be, whether you meant it to be a huge deal or not. I can't quite tell, but usually bolded words mean serious business.