Psychic Warrior build help

[Eonir]

I am thinking about playing a psychic warrior for a three man campaign. Medium optimization, nothing overly fancy, but everyone will be tier 3 minimum. For race I am going with Elan.

Point Buy-32. Flaws not allowed. Pretty much everything else goes.

I was thinking something along the lines of Swordsage2/PsywarX. Going for the "nomadic warrior" type.

Thoughts and Opinions?

[Rejusu]

Is your DM enforcing multi-class penalties? If s/he is you may want to reconsider that swordsage dip. With a Psychic Warrior you don't really want to dip any more than one or two levels into another class (as losing manifester levels is bad) so you'll suffer multi-class XP penalties later on. Elan is a good race choice but if MC XP penalties are in effect and you want to keep that SS dip you may want to switch to human or something with SS as a favoured class (only race I know of with PW as favoured class is Half Giant, which is good but a +1 LA).

Make sure to grab the mantled warrior ACF, it's pretty much mandatory as it allows you to get more mantles later. The freedom mantle is better to get first because the granted ability is pretty nice and the good powers on the other mantle don't become available until later levels.

[Eonir]

Yeah, not xp penalties.

And I figured some of the SS maneuvers would make up for the lack of manifester levels?

[Rejusu]

Yeah, not xp penalties.

And I figured some of the SS maneuvers would make up for the lack of manifester levels?

I prefer to avoid dropping ML's as it slows down your power advancement, but that's just personal preference. I'd advise dipping Crusader or Warblade instead of SS though unless your DM is allowing fractional BAB, or you'll lose BAB if you dip it. Make sure you take the practised manifester feat too, you pretty much need it if you drop more than one ML so you can augment your powers properly.

I take it you've read this guide? If not you should give it a look, it's a very good overview of the Psychic Warrior. Helped me a lot when I was building the one I'm playing in my current game (Half-giant spiked chain tripper psy warr).

[Eonir]

I take it you've read this guide? If not you should give it a look, it's a very good overview of the Psychic Warrior. Helped me a lot when I was building the one I'm playing in my current game (Half-giant spiked chain tripper psy warr).

Definitely. Seeing as before yesterday my only knowledge/thoughts on the psywar were "the guy in the picture has a cool sword".

My DM has houseruled that they psywars have good BAB, which I think is unnecessary, but I am not going to argue :D

And the SS has some nice wisdom synergy that I liked, that's the reason I am going with it (and because the SS has the coolest feel out of all the ToB classes IMO).

[Rejusu]

Yeah, never argue with free buffs. You've got pretty much no reason to PrC out of PsyWar now if you're getting full BAB, unless you forsee yourself fighting a lot of illithids.

Remember that the wis synergy for the SS is only active when you're in light armour. Unless you're going for a dexterity based build you might be better off wearing heavy armour. Although wisdom is your primary manifesting stat you're not a primary manifester so you don't want to over invest in it at the expense of your melee combat stats. You only really need 16 WIS (and you can start with less) because that's what you'll need to manifest 6th level powers.

Just remember that if you do go for a dex build then it doesn't gel well with expansion, which is probably your best first level power.

[Elric VIII]

You might like to go Ardent. It's a full manifester, Wis-based, with medium BAB. You can use the Substitute Powers ACF to pick up any PsyWar powers you might like.

The reason that I suggest this is that Ardent can be combined with Swordsage in such a way that you come out of it with a similar manifesting progression to a PsyWar. That way you don't have to choose between MLs and ILs.

[eggs]

Sounds cool.

One ability that's easy to overlook, but that is absolutely invaluable to Psychic Warriors is the Linked Power metapsionic feat from Complete Psionic.

Without LP, psychic warriors often face nasty tradeoffs between a functional action economy (via quickens/manifestation-shortening augmentations/duration-lengthening augmentations) and a full day's endurance (by conserving PP and neglecting the above augments).

With LP, you can do things like Link Expansion (normally 1 round manifesting time) to Dimension Hop (a swift action manifesting time) to spend 2 rounds getting 2 rounds' attacks in and Expand and get an extra bit of movement, all for just 2 pp.

[Rubik]

Sounds cool.

One ability that's easy to overlook, but that is absolutely invaluable to Psychic Warriors is the Linked Power metapsionic feat from Complete Psionic.

Without LP, psychic warriors often face nasty tradeoffs between a functional action economy (via quickens/manifestation-shortening augmentations/duration-lengthening augmentations) and a full day's endurance (by conserving PP and neglecting the above augments).

With LP, you can do things like Link Expansion (normally 1 round standard action manifesting time) to Dimension Hop (a swift action manifesting time) to spend 2 rounds getting 2 rounds' attacks in and Expand and get an extra bit of movement, all for just 2 pp.

I'd have to say that Linked Power is a feat EVERY SINGLE PSYWAR BUILD EVER should have, because it allows them to be a functional and efficient gish. One of the reasons why clerics make such good gishes is because they can DMM Persist or Quicken, so they don't have to spend rounds buffing. This gives the same to psychic warriors.

And it's awesome.

Otherwise you have to rely on, say, buffing on your actions and using Combat Reflexes to actually deal damage by provoking AoOs (and hoping you can actually get some in).

[Rubik]

Etc

Wow. A triple-post over an hour and a half apart. I'm impressed.

And annoyed.

Not at you, but at the stupid server. It does crap like that to me, too.

[Eonir]

You might like to go Ardent. It's a full manifester, Wis-based, with medium BAB. You can use the Substitute Powers ACF to pick up any PsyWar powers you might like.

The reason that I suggest this is that Ardent can be combined with Swordsage in such a way that you come out of it with a similar manifesting progression to a PsyWar. That way you don't have to choose between MLs and ILs.

Sounds viable enough, I don't really like the ardent fluff however :/

Thanks for the suggestion though!

Sounds cool.

One ability that's easy to overlook, but that is absolutely invaluable to Psychic Warriors is the Linked Power metapsionic feat from Complete Psionic.

Without LP, psychic warriors often face nasty tradeoffs between a functional action economy (via quickens/manifestation-shortening augmentations/duration-lengthening augmentations) and a full day's endurance (by conserving PP and neglecting the above augments).

With LP, you can do things like Link Expansion (normally 1 round manifesting time) to Dimension Hop (a swift action manifesting time) to spend 2 rounds getting 2 rounds' attacks in and Expand and get an extra bit of movement, all for just 2 pp.

Noted and done.

Anything else I should know?

[Rejusu]

Wow. A triple-post over an hour and a half apart. I'm impressed.

And annoyed.

Not at you, but at the stupid server. It does crap like that to me, too.

It seems to happen to me all the time. I'm constantly cleaning up duplicate posts because it's 500'd me.

[Essence_of_War]

Noted and done.

Anything else I should know?

Pick a fighting style, stick with it, and develop it with feats/powers?

It's a good idea to figure out pretty early if you like the idea of spike chain tripping, natural weapons, charging, etc etc.

Charging with a big sword, especially with your access to hustle, can be really effective. Tripping/Bull Rushing w/ Knockdown/Knockback is fantastic w/ expansion. Strongly consider being a half-giant, or goliath (for powerful build) if you like the idea of tripping and slamming your opponents all over the battlefield.

Elan's have great synergy with Claws of the Beast natural attack fighters because they can take Rapid Strike and Imp. Rapid Strike later on to develop their full attack routine. Pick up the Vampiric Claws power, and try to get combat reflexes + Karmic Strike and/or Robilar's Gambit. People will NOT like trading hits with you.

If you're definitely being an Elan, check the "King of Smack" build at the Psychic Warrior handbook above. It's really effective, really fun, and can be tuned to the power level of your allies.

[Eonir]

If you're definitely being an Elan, check the "King of Smack" build at the Psychic Warrior handbook above. It's really effective, really fun, and can be tuned to the power level of your allies.

That just sounds.....exciting. And it will make my DM cry, which is worth every book he throws at me.

[Essence_of_War]

Hahaha, certainly have fun with it, but make sure you "finetune the dials", as it were, to get it into the correct combat power level for your game. If you're playing with Warblades/Duskblades/Swordsages that are being intelligently played, you shouldn't have to turn it down much.

Also, the Elan racial feat (improved elan resistance) is actually a pretty good choice. If I'm playing an Elan, I make it a point to take it.

[Rubik]

The biggest problem with playing a psywar elan is the extreme lack of power points. Your pool is really low, so do everything you can to conserve as much as you can. If you can get away with only expending 1 pp per fight (on Expansion, likely), do it.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah...this is a very good point.

It's VERY useful to partition your power point reserve. Pick a few all-day buffs, and then pick your power manifestations carefully. Don't go throwing around powers all willy-nilly. Psions usually can't even do that, and you have something like 1/3rd the PP!

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The biggest problem with playing a psywar elan is the extreme lack of power points. Your pool is really low, so do everything you can to conserve as much as you can. If you can get away with only expending 1 pp per fight (on Expansion, likely), do it.

Yes, that was the point I was about to bring up. The big drawback of the PSW is the number of PP you have. This is an issue I always want to adress when building them, because I always get annoyed at have too little.

One good option is going Ardent, as mentioned. Take practiced manifester and 2(-4) fighter levels if you really want some feats. Or practiced manifester with 2 fighter levels, one ranger level and 10 slayer levels...that always works.

One other option might be, might, mind you, to go for the meditant prestige class (it is a mind's eye web enhancement class) or the meditation feats it is built on. This only really works if you plan to play with 2 or 3 powers you want to last all day (1 hr/level) and you can spare the feats. The fact that you get full b.a.b. for the PSW helps here, because you will still reach 4 attacks.

The feats allow you to pull PP out of mid air a few times a day (and the class makes you better at it), to power your all-day buffs (take extend power). This leaves you with more PP to spend in combat situations. Again, this only works for certain PSW builds, but if it suits you you might want to give it a try. The drawback of the class vs PSW is a lack of feats and (in your case) a 7/10 b.a.b. (if memory serves me right), but if that means you can pull off the stuff you envision 3-4 times a day in combat, that may be worth it.

[Rubik]

Yes, that was the point I was about to bring up. The big drawback of the PSW is the number of PP you have. This is an issue I always want to adress when building them, because I always get annoyed at have too little.

One good option is going Ardent, as mentioned. Take practiced manifester and 2(-4) fighter levels if you really want some feats. Or practiced manifester with 2 fighter levels, one ranger level and 10 slayer levels...that always works.

One other option might be, might, mind you, to go for the meditant prestige class (it is a mind's eye web enhancement class) or the meditation feats it is built on. This only really works if you plan to play with 2 or 3 powers you want to last all day (1 hr/level) and you can spare the feats. The fact that you get full b.a.b. for the PSW helps here, because you will still reach 4 attacks.

The feats allow you to pull PP out of mid air a few times a day (and the class makes you better at it), to power your all-day buffs (take extend power). This leaves you with more PP to spend in combat situations. Again, this only works for certain PSW builds, but if it suits you you might want to give it a try. The drawback of the class vs PSW is a lack of feats and (in your case) a 7/10 b.a.b. (if memory serves me right), but if that means you can pull off the stuff you envision 3-4 times a day in combat, that may be worth it.

Unless you ACF it up, ardents suck. Ardents REALLY suck.

I think you'd be better off going out for a totemist 2/psywar 18 with the Wild Cohort feat and the Soulbound Weapon ACF. Use totemist and Shape Soulmeld (as well as other feats) to cover for all sorts of powers you'd have to use all the time, your animal friend to help with mobility and additional damage, and use your ACF ONLY when you need a specialist weapon (such as for sundering hydra heads, or taking on surprise shadow attacks).

[Autopsibiofeeder]

Unless you ACF it up, ardents suck. Ardents REALLY suck.

Well, I referred to an earlier post ('as mentioned'), which mentioned ACF's. But even then, ardents are not that bad? It depends a lot on where you want to go with the build, but the good PP/day they get combined with the flexibility offered when multiclassing with practiced manifester makes the class a nice basis for a lot of builds. I agree that due to the limited power selection options the class is very limited and utterly subpar to the psion, but it has its uses in less conventional builds. Pure, single class, no ACF ardent is underwhelming, no, straightforward frustrating to build, yes. But the class has its uses.

[Eonir]

I think you'd be better off going out for a totemist 2/psywar 18 with the Wild Cohort feat and the Soulbound Weapon ACF. Use totemist and Shape Soulmeld (as well as other feats) to cover for all sorts of powers you'd have to use all the time, your animal friend to help with mobility and additional damage, and use your ACF ONLY when you need a specialist weapon (such as for sundering hydra heads, or taking on surprise shadow attacks).

I haven't even opened the incarnum book actually, I should probably do that. From what I understand though, they are like magic item duplicators?

[Rubik]

I haven't even opened the incarnum book actually, I should probably do that. From what I understand though, they are like magic item duplicators?

Pretty much, yeah, though they do have some REALLY NICE psionic support (check the feats and powers), and the soulmelds segue nicely.

Well, I referred to an earlier post ('as mentioned'), which mentioned ACF's. But even then, ardents are not that bad? It depends a lot on where you want to go with the build, but the good PP/day they get combined with the flexibility offered when multiclassing with practiced manifester makes the class a nice basis for a lot of builds. I agree that due to the limited power selection options the class is very limited and utterly subpar to the psion, but it has its uses in less conventional builds. Pure, single class, no ACF ardent is underwhelming, no, straightforward frustrating to build, yes. But the class has its uses.

The problem with using an ardent to multiclass is that you have very VERY few available powers from just two mantles, and so you don't want to give up any more of those than you have to, and eating up non-ardent levels screws over your ability to get new mantles, AND it lowers your available power points. If you're going to spend lots of levels on non-ardent ones, why take that instead of straight psywar?

Also, manifesters need feats rather desperately to function well, especially on metapsionics. Ardents don't get any.

[Eonir]

I'll check them out.

Also, going back to my original psywar/ss build, is the feat "Instant Clarity" as good as I think (gain psi focus back as a swift action after successfully initiating a maneuver). Or is that another one of those feats that is really only good on paper?

[Rubik]

I'll check them out.

Also, going back to my original psywar/ss build, is the feat "Instant Clarity" as good as I think (gain psi focus back as a swift action after successfully initiating a maneuver). Or is that another one of those feats that is really only good on paper?

It's only usable 3/day.

Not really worth it when you could get Hustle + Psionic Meditation and get it every round (potentially).

[Eonir]

It's only usable 3/day.

Crap. Yeah can't do that then. My DM is too fond of going well over the 4-5 encounter a day limit.

[Autopsibiofeeder]

The problem with using an ardent to multiclass is that you have very VERY few available powers from just two mantles, and so you don't want to give up any more of those than you have to, and eating up non-ardent levels screws over your ability to get new mantles, AND it lowers your available power points. If you're going to spend lots of levels on non-ardent ones, why take that instead of straight psywar?

Also, manifesters need feats rather desperately to function well, especially on metapsionics. Ardents don't get any.

We are comparing the PSW to the ardent here so the amount of powers you get is comparable at least. As a small bonus, an ardent has access to lvl 7-9 powers (should you fancy those), which are out of a PSW's reach.

Also, an ardent with a true (without practiced manifester) ML of 16 has about 100 base PP more than a PSW 20. That is nothing to sneeze at, almost double the base PP even.

In return, you get a crappily small powers list to choose from, I agree. However, creating your own sensible, coherent mantle is an explicit option offered by the rules. That is a rule one might exploit (within reason). In addition, there are feats that allow you to add mantles to your repertoire. And then we get to the feats. While I agree that (psionic) feats are vital for a lot of psionic builds, they are not vital for all builds. And even then, you can play a human, you might have flaws (if allowed) and you have the option to take fighter or PSW (if you want psionic feats) levels for a few of them and make good use of the practiced manifester mechanism.

I agree that for many builds and plans the ardent just doesn't cut it due to built-in limitations, I am just arguing that for a lot of other builds it can work out just fine. It really depends on what your character-idea is. There is a place, albeit small, for the ardent .