Magic the Gathering X: Deal X damage to target thread.

[Maho-Tsukai]

As to why I am not running U/B? Simple...Money. 99.9% of UB Infect builds online that I have found are running Tez. I can't afford to spend $70.00+ on a single card. If there is a way to build a U/B Infect built without Tez that dosent's suck I would gladly jump at it...but everybody seems to be using Tez in there U/B Infect builds and as a result I assume there must be a reason nobody is running U/B Infect without Tez. In other words, I get the impression that everybody thinks that U/B Infect sucks without Tez since practically no Tez-free lists exist for the post ban environment....and the majority is many times correct.

Also, there is the fact that once Jace Beleren rotates, U/B Infect without Tez becomes even more inferior then it already is. Thus, with Beleren having a limited lifespan and Tez dominating U/B builds I figured that I may as well just go mono black. Discard can make up for the lack of counters and I can use sign in blood and Tezzeret's Gambit for draw. Preordain is nice, yes, but Preordain and Beleren(Who's leaving soon anyway) are basically the only things I gain by going U/B over Mono B without access to Tez.

If I could afford Tez I would go U/B in a heartbeat but since I can't afford Tez I see absolutely no reason to go U/B over B unless U/B can actually function without Tez.

[Fable Wright]

As to why I am not running U/B? Simple...Money. 99.9% of UB Infect builds online that I have found are running Tez. I can't afford to spend $70.00+ on a single card. If there is a way to build a U/B Infect built without Tez that dosent's suck I would gladly jump at it...but everybody seems to be using Tez in there U/B Infect builds and as a result I assume there must be a reason nobody is running U/B Infect without Tez. In other words, I get the impression that everybody thinks that U/B Infect sucks without Tez since practically no Tez-free lists exist for the post ban environment....and the majority is many times correct.

Also, there is the fact that once Jace Beleren rotates, U/B Infect without Tez becomes even more inferior then it already is. Thus, with Beleren having a limited lifespan and Tez dominating U/B builds I figured that I may as well just go mono black. Discard can make up for the lack of counters and I can use sign in blood and Tezzeret's Gambit for draw. Preordain is nice, yes, but Preordain and Beleren(Who's leaving soon anyway) are basically the only things I gain by going U/B over Mono B without access to Tez.

If I could afford Tez I would go U/B in a heartbeat but since I can't afford Tez I see absolutely no reason to go U/B over B unless U/B can actually function without Tez.

Tezz's price dropped a bit from what you're thinking of... it's $30 by Blackborder now.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But it's still expensive...and 4 copies of a $30.00 card is still a lot of money and most U/B builds run 4.

[Suedars]

Tezzerret isn't as important to the deck as he used to be, especially with Clasp not being as good. I wouldn't be surprised seeing existing UB builds run less of him or cut him altogether.

Preordain is excellent for smoothing your draws (and there will almost certainly be some sort of equivalent in M12), and discard can't just be substituted for counters in fighting combo. A lot of Twin's instant speed tricks it uses to protect/force through its combo are resilient to discard since they can cast them in response, and discard isn't as good at protecting your answers to the combo.

[Maho-Tsukai]

But I still can't run any Tez's, ever. So unless Tez drops dramatically in price I can't run U/B. Especially when Beleren rotates as without Beleren I can't see a Tez-free build working...

If you can provide me with at least one, post-ban, no-Tez online build then I may change my mind....but there has to be a reason everybody is running Tez...and until I see non-tez builds appear online in some form or have several experienced players tell me that U/B can be made without Tez and still be successful I will assume that Tez is essential to the U/B build and post-ban a U/B build without Tez is totally impossible to create.(or totally dependent on Beleren who will be rotating soon.)

[Suedars]

But I still can't run any Tez's, ever. So unless Tez drops dramatically in price I can't run U/B. Especially when Beleren rotates as without Beleren I can't see a Tez-free build working...

If you can provide me with at least one, post-ban, no-Tez online build then I may change my mind....but there has to be a reason everybody is running Tez...and until I see non-tez builds appear online in some form or have several experienced players tell me that U/B can be made without Tez and still be successful I will assume that Tez is essential to the U/B build and post-ban a U/B build without Tez is totally impossible to create.(or totally dependent on Beleren who will be rotating soon.)

Forget about Tezzeret.

What do you lose if you swap in 4 Darkslick Shores and 4 Drowned Catacombs?

Some consistency on hitting turn 2 Sign in Bloods, turn 3 Crusaders, and resiliency vs. Tech Edge.

What do you gain?

Better card draw. Better draw filtering. Better Twin and Valakut matchups. More resiliency vs. Spreading Seas.

Even if you aren't running Tezzeret, you're still better off running U. You give up very little for quite a bit of gain.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Then why is nobody else running U/B without Tez? It is hard to believe that a deck can run without a card EVERY SINGLE post-ban online list includes. If you can show me an online deck list that is post ban, dose not run tez and is no less effective then/not weaker then the Tez build then then I may reconsider. However, until you can prove that Tez is not essential to U/B infect with an actual post-ban list published online then I will continue to believe Tez is 100% essential to U/B infect post ban.

Alternatively, you could provide a sample deck you make yourself and give me a detailed argument that shows how it is not inferior to the tez build, if you have the time and wherewithal to do that.

[Suedars]

I'm not saying it's not inferior to the Tezzeret build. It probably is. But that's irrelevant, because you're not playing with Tezzeret no matter what.

What I'm saying is that even without Tezzeret, UB is better than mono B.

[ScionoftheVoid]

Then why is nobody else running U/B without Tez? It is hard to believe that a deck can run without a card EVERY SINGLE post-ban online list includes. If you can show me an online deck list that is post ban, dose not run tez and is no less effective then/not weaker then the Tez build then then I may reconsider. However, until you can prove that Tez is not essential to U/B infect with an actual post-ban list published online then I will continue to believe Tez is 100% essential to U/B infect post ban.

Alternatively, you could provide a sample deck you make yourself and give me a detailed argument that shows how it is not inferior to the tez build, if you have the time and wherewithal to do that.

Perhaps having Tezzeret is the best option, but UB without Tez would still be better than MonoB (still, obviously, without Tez)? You're already trying something unprecedented and without Tezzeret, why does adding another colour, specifically, matter?

The ability to run counterspells and better card draw would help the deck. That it might not do as well as UB running Tez is irrelevant because the Mono Black would presumably do even worse.

Edit: Basically what ^ he said at greater length.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Then should I just go aggro Infect and call it a day? I generally dislike aggro tactics, but if I can't afford Tez then should I just forget ever playing Infect control all together? Is there a more traditional, non-Infect control build I can run for cheaper? Perhaps a traditional Mono B build running Obliterators? How expensive is he anyway? Is he under $30.00? I could perhaps sub Sheoldreads for Grave Titans to make it more budget friendly? Likewise, how viable is Mono U? If I am forgetting Infect and just going strait control then perhaps I should look at U or U/W instead of B or U/B? Basically, I am looking for a somewhat budget(not totally budget but no uber-expensive mythics..generally if it's under $30.00 I can afford 4 copies. If it's $30.00+ chances are I can only have 1....MAYBE two but don't count on it.) control deck. While I like infect, if Infect control is not possible to create on a budget(which it is not due to Tez being the best options) then I may as well just forget Infect and go with a more traditional control tactic.

[Suedars]

Not having Tezzeret isn't that big a deal. He's like 2 cards of your 75. It's not optimal, but so long as you aren't trying to win a PTQ, you'll be fine.

Other control decks are generally going to be much more expensive, due to their reliance on PWs and Titans.

I don't see why you're so willing to sub Sheoldred for Grave Titan, but running UB Infect without Tezzeret is driving you away from the deck.

[Lix Lorn]

Not having Tezzeret isn't that big a deal. He's like 2 cards of your 75. It's not optimal, but so long as you aren't trying to win a PTQ, you'll be fine.

And if you ARE, then you need either deific luck, incredible skill, or really deep pockets. Game winning cards are EXPENSIVE.

[Suedars]

Basically, I am looking for a somewhat budget(not totally budget but no uber-expensive mythics..generally if it's under $30.00 I can afford 4 copies. If it's $30.00+ chances are I can only have 1....MAYBE two but don't count on it.) control deck. While I like infect, if Infect control is not possible to create on a budget(which it is not due to Tez being the best options) then I may as well just forget Infect and go with a more traditional control tactic.

Wait, you realize UB Infect only runs like 2 copies of Tezzeret, right? And he's like $30 online. You can probably get him even cheaper if you're persistent in your trading/shopping around.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Except for Mono B control, which runs no walkers. Or U/B control which runs Beleren, which I already have a playset of. I checked Obliteratiors and I have found that he generally runs for under $30.00s. Though Mono B would require Grave Titans, I have found that on ebay he actually runs far cheaper then Tez...since I already have Belerens, a non-infect U/B strategy using Grave Titans or perhaps a Mono B strategy pairing Grave Titans and Obliterators seems more accessible then U/B Infect which wants Tez.

Also, U/B Infect runs only 2 Tezzeret's? Last time I checked everybody's running 4. If you can link me to an extremely cheap Tez(like not over $30.00.) then I may be able to actually build the deck. Otherwise I will forget infect and start looking up other, non tez-dependent control options.

[Fable Wright]

Then should I just go aggro Infect and call it a day? I generally dislike aggro tactics, but if I can't afford Tez then should I just forget ever playing Infect control all together? Is there a more traditional, non-Infect control build I can run for cheaper? Perhaps a traditional Mono B build running Obliterators? How expensive is he anyway? Is he under $30.00? I could perhaps sub Sheoldreads for Grave Titans to make it more budget friendly?

$25, actually. It's a 5/5 rarely-blocked trampler for 4, and can wipe boards when you get the opponent down to low life. It's a very good aggressive card. It's also awesome for stopping non-protection non-flying attacks if you leave open for blocking; however, control/removal strategies often target it first with Tumble Magnet and Dismember; your mileage may vary.

Lashwrithe on it is ungodly, BTW. 9/9 Trample + obliterate.

Finally, I would consider Liliana Vess, if you have one, for this deck. Liliana is awesome as a repeated tutor/discard machine, and can help get you the card you need when you need it. Not immediately, but it definitely helps.

[Maho-Tsukai]

No, but Lillina is FAR, FAR, FAR easier to get my hands on then Tez ever will be since nobody plays her in standard anyway. Sadly she rotates soon, like Beleren, and Sorin is hardly a worthy replacement for her.

Also, I am honestly surprised to find out how cheap Grave Titan is going for on ebay. I have found MANY people selling it for under $25.00 as a buy it now with NO silly high shipping yet everybody is selling Tez on ebay for $60.00+. Only one person was selling for him around $30.00 as a buy it now and it was at $33.00.

While this may change very soon, if I can snag grave titans now a U/B or mono B control build would not be that hard to assemble.

Also, how viable is B/R control? I happen to by chance have two Sarkhans, and mannaged to pull a Koth...I also have plenty of lightening bolts, too...

[IthilanorStPete]

Um, Channelfireball is sellng Tez for $30, and they're more reliable than Ebay to boot.

[Suedars]

Except for Mono B control, which runs no walkers. Or U/B control which runs Beleren, which I already have a playset of. I checked Obliteratiors and I have found that he generally runs for under $30.00s. Though Mono B would require Grave Titans, I have found that on ebay he actually runs far cheaper then Tez...since I already have Belerens, a non-infect U/B strategy using Grave Titans or perhaps a Mono B strategy pairing Grave Titans and Obliterators seems more accessible then U/B Infect which wants Tez.

Also, U/B Infect runs only 2 Tezzeret's? Last time I checked everybody's running 4. If you can link me to an extremely cheap Tez(like not over $30.00.) then I may be able to actually build the deck. Otherwise I will forget infect and start looking up other, non tez-dependent control options.

Mono B control isn't very good. It's bad against other control decks, and not that good against combo either. It's really only good against agro, and even then you can still just lose to a nut draw, especially if they're on the play. Obliterator helps you against the agro decks you're already good against, but is just a dumb beater against control and combo.

U/B is definitely better, and is a legitimate way to go, but I wouldn't recommend running Sheoldred over Grave Titan. It closes games out much slower, which means that Valakut and Twin have an extra turn or two to just randomly win on you.

Tezzeret is only $30 on Channel Fireball, and you do only want to run 2ish. Running 4 isn't good. You don't want to draw multiples of them, and the deck isn't reliant on having them.

[Maho-Tsukai]

In U/B control NOT focused on Infect what other finishers would I run in addition to Grave Titan? Consecrated Sphinx? Wurmcoil? With Tez not being a cheap as you say in a lot of places I am beginning to think standard U/B control may be better then U/B Infect control here seeing as Ebay has the titans for so darn cheap and I've found Wurmcoils and such for cheaper then I can seem to find Tez.

Also, how viable is B/R? I have not seen much talk of B/R so I don't know..Likewise, how viable is non-twin, non-tez and artifact Grixis?

[Suedars]

Grave Titan and Tar Pit are your two main finishers. The deck might want 1 other finisher (probably just as a 1 or 2 of, or maybe as a sideboard card) now that Jace is gone, but I'm not sure about that.

I don't see why BR control would be that good, or better than UW or UB. Having U in control decks is just very important right now with Twin in the format.

I'd avoid 3 color decks for now (at least not ones that don't heavily fix with G), just because there's so much LD in the format right now between Spreading Seas, Tec Edge, Exarch tapping down lands, and random Acidic Slimes and Ruinblasters.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, in that case standard U/B forgetting infect just looks like my best bet since Grave Titan is surprisingly enough more affordable then Tez right now, or so it seems. The only issue though is Beleren rotating...once Beleren rotates, what would replace him, if anything?

[Fable Wright]

Mono B control isn't very good. It's bad against other control decks, and not that good against combo either. It's really only good against agro, and even then you can still just lose to a nut draw, especially if they're on the play. Obliterator helps you against the agro decks you're already good against, but is just a dumb beater against control and combo.

Hm... what's the factor that causes Mono Black Control to be suboptimal in those matchups? I find that an Inquisition or Duress are good for taking out key parts of the combo, and spot removal on a flashed-in Exarch often works well. Against other control I can see, but Nantuko Shade is pretty good in those match-ups, as it's cheap and can deal out massive damage. Hexmages are also good, as they can take out Tumble Magnets and similar control devices used against you, including planeswalkers- however, vs white aggro with Mirran Crusaders and Swords and all, I find that to be one of mono black's hardest match-ups.

[IthilanorStPete]

Hm... what's the factor that causes Mono Black Control to be suboptimal in those matchups? I find that an Inquisition or Duress are good for taking out key parts of the combo, and spot removal on a flashed-in Exarch often works well. Against other control I can see, but Nantuko Shade is pretty good in those match-ups, as it's cheap and can deal out massive damage. Hexmages are also good, as they can take out Tumble Magnets and similar control devices used against you, including planeswalkers- however, vs white aggro with Mirran Crusaders and Swords and all, I find that to be one of mono black's hardest match-ups.

Mainly, you have issues getting card advantage and actually putting a clock on them. Even if you rip apart their hand, if you're not putting pressure on, the
Twin player can just sit back, dig, and sculpt their hand.

[Suedars]

Hm... what's the factor that causes Mono Black Control to be suboptimal in those matchups? I find that an Inquisition or Duress are good for taking out key parts of the combo, and spot removal on a flashed-in Exarch often works well. Against other control I can see, but Nantuko Shade is pretty good in those match-ups, as it's cheap and can deal out massive damage. Hexmages are also good, as they can take out Tumble Magnets and similar control devices used against you, including planeswalkers- however, vs white aggro with Mirran Crusaders and Swords and all, I find that to be one of mono black's hardest match-ups.

MBC vs. Twin is a weird matchup, since in a lot of ways Twin is the control deck. Your hand disruption spells are good at stopping them from quickly comboing off, but the longer the game goes the worse they get, since unlike counterspells you have to choose in advance what you're stopping, meaning they get a lot worse than counterspells if they're sitting back and sculpting a hand to go off with. The lack of countermagic also gives them a big advantage later once they can leave counters up to protect their combo while going off.

Twin wants to sit back, develop its mana, and sculpt a hand. MBC has to kill them before they get up to about 8ish mana and a decently sculpted hand. Most MBC builds have a very hard time doing that, especially pre-board, since they aren't built towards applying that early pressure, but if you are running Hexmages and Nantuko Shades(which I haven't tried), things probably do get much better for you.

Against Valakut you have the same problem with putting pressure on them, combined with the fact that you won't be able to strip all their ramp, meaning they can usually get to the 4-5 Mountain+1 Valakut area where everything they draw is gas, at which point your main disruption, discard, becomes dead.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, for a U/B build not focused on Infect how dose this look?...

Spoiler

Show

Lands:
3x Tectonic Edge
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Drowned Catacombs
4x Darkslick Shores
5x Island
6x Swamp

Creatures:
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Grave Titan

Walkers:
3x Jace Beleren
1x Lillina Ves
1x Karn Liberated(I pulled this by chance)

Sorceries/Instants:
3x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Dismember
4x Mana Leak
2x Into the Roil
3x Go for the Throat
4x Preordain
3x Duress
4x Inquisition of Kozilek

[IthilanorStPete]

Definitely run Despise over Duress, I'd say. I'd also try and make space for some more card draw, say 2 Jace's Ingenuity.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but what to take out..perhaps cut Karn since I already have 2 Grave Titans and 2 Wurmcoils plus a playset of shores? What else should I cut for the second copy, though?

[BladeofOblivion]

Yeah, but what to take out..perhaps cut the Karn? What else should I cut for the second copy, though?

Maybe a Black Sun's Zenith? Three's probably more than you need.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That may be a good idea...so with your suggestion it would look a bit like this...

Spoiler

Show

Lands:
3x Tectonic Edge
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Drowned Catacombs
4x Darkslick Shores
5x Island
6x Swamp

Creatures:
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Grave Titan

Walkers:
3x Jace Beleren
1x Lillina Ves

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Dismember
4x Mana Leak
2x Into the Roil
3x Go for the Throat
4x Preordain
3x Despise
4x Inqusition of Kozilek

Inginuity still seems a bit clunky and unwieldy, though...hmm..Perhaps running 4 Jaces and 2 Lillina Ves' would be better?

[Suedars]

That may be a good idea...so with your suggestion it would look a bit like this...

Spoiler

Show

Lands:
3x Tectonic Edge
4x Creeping Tar Pit
4x Drowned Catacombs
4x Darkslick Shores
5x Island
6x Swamp

Creatures:
2x Wurmcoil Engine
2x Grave Titan

Walkers:
3x Jace Beleren
1x Lillina Ves

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Black Sun's Zenith
2x Jace's Ingenuity
2x Dismember
4x Mana Leak
2x Into the Roil
3x Go for the Throat
4x Preordain
3x Despise
4x Inqusition of Kozilek

This is probably fineish for now. It's pretty hard to tune a control deck without testing it, since so much of it comes down to deciding what answers you want to run, and how many, and it's pretty impossible to do testing without having a solid metagame to test against yet.

I'd probably look into the following for the future though:
-Jace's Ingenuity is expensive for a draw spell. Possibly look at Tezzeret's Gambit or another one?
-I think I'd want to go heavier on Grave Titans as the finisher, with the Wurmcoils being in the board, though I'm guessing you're running this split for budget reasons.
-Spreading Seas is something to keep in mind depending on how popular Valakut is, how greedy decks are with their mana bases, and how important manlands are.
-Sea Gate Oracle might be a good include as a value guy and a roadblock vs. agro
-7 Duress effects is a lot. You might want to cut the Despises, and include Duresses in the board.
-I'd look at fitting in 4 Into the Roils.