Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Watched the trailer. Was that Jennifer Hale's voice as the Grey Warden lady?

[TheLaughingMan]

This is because of Bioware having it to be almost sacrosanct never to inconvenience the player.
Yes, if the game adhered to the lore fully you wouldn't be able to fight a single fight without the templars swarming the place a couple of minutes later. Your home would be stormed at first notice. Your family probably arrested or killed.
Not only would it massively derail the plot and punish you from picking mage, but even if they allow you to survive it.:They'll still firmly and utterly place the Templars in the camp of Antagonists and Enemies. And a big part of the game is that this is at least a little ambigous.

In a way... it's kind of asking for something you don't want, since the easiest way to get the templars to react the mages "properly" is to remove -all- mage options for the player.
Because the way the game is designed and the lore is built up... you either handwave why the templars don't notice you, make mages unplayable and unrecruitable or make a separate game entirely for mages.

Just like we never suffer disease or have to suffer our character staying home with a broken leg for weeks, never get arrested for comitting violence inside the city walls and other logical and realistic restrictions... you don't get boarded up in the Gallows as a mage.
Because it restricts your freedom in the game as a player.

And it's nothing new... it's just like that the party could have Bastila with her lightsaber in hands running about on Taris in KotoR, that you never get sick in NWN or that you cannot be lost in Sloth's dreamprison or possessed in DAO.

I really wouldn't say it's like not getting a cold in a videogame. The mage-templar is the crux of the entire plot - Playing a mage in Templar City is kind of asking for it. At least throw a few Templars at the player for every time they flagrantly abuse their plot-armor.

For example, say that we have a city under quarantine. The Virus has infected quite a few citizens, and awakened in them some psychic powers. In an attempt to keep control, the government places those citizens under heavy lock-down, and the (army, navy, spase mahrines) has/have been ordered to take down potentially dangerous infectees with extreme prejudice. Now, imagine we are the protagonist of such a setting. And we're pretty much throwing cars, lighting birds on fire, and kicking the asses of whichever party has looked at us funny. Now, imagine the spase navarmy doesn't even bat an eye. Exaggeration? Probably. But you get my point.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

I really wouldn't say it's like not getting a cold in a videogame. The mage-templar is the crux of the entire plot - Playing a mage in Templar City is kind of asking for it. At least throw a few Templars at the player for every time they flagrantly abuse their plot-armor.

But that's not apparent right at the start of the game, when you're fleeing the darkspawn. Your mother suggests going to Kirkwall because you have family there, which means its your best bet of finding a place to stay, as opposed to "wandering aimlessly" as Bethany puts it. Your status as a mage isn't as much an issue as finding a home. In fact, the templar/mage conflict only takes center stage in the third act. In the first act, it's more along the lines of "world-building" for Kirkwall, the different quests introducing you to your companions and showing you the status quo that's going to get shaken up in subsequent acts.

In the second act, not only are you rich and powerful enough that the Order can't touch you without getting on the bad side of the nobles (including the Viscount who is likely very grateful to the person that saved his son from the Winters), but the qunari are more of a pressing concern anyway.

Once the qunari are gone as a threat, the conflict that you brought to light in the first act (by revealing Tahrone's scheme to subvert the templars) takes center stage, but then you're the Champion and you're too powerful to touch. Moreover, the templars WANT you on their side by that point.

Really the only point where using magic in public would be an issue is in the first act, but I imagine that word travels slowly in Kirkwall (case in point, I received a letter from Meeran of the Red Iron telling me about a potential job, but the letter had apparently been sent AFTER I refused to kill Lord Harriman, prompting him to tell me he wouldn't help me find work again, and then attacking me and getting himself killed), and even if templars can sense you're a mage, you're doing things they can't, helping them. They likely feel this gets you at least a brief reprieve, as you've clearly shown you're not an abomination or a maleficar (at least until you hit level 7, anyway). Furthermore, Meredith is only just coming into power and is still much more lenient than when she goes off the deep end in the final act.

Sure, it's handwaving, but really, would anyone want to play a mage if they stuck to the lore? And besides, as you see even in the first act, Kirkwall's crawling with maleficarum anyway that the templars are doing nothing about. They're clearly more interested in keeping the mages they've got under control, not seeking out ones that cause trouble. In short, they're looking for trouble in the wrong places.

EDIT: Apparently it's now canon that the Warden didn't side with the Reavers and destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and that he/she found, activated and restored the memories of Shale, as both Wynne and Shale are major characters in the upcoming novel, Dragon Age: Asunder. This personally doesn't bother me because that's how my game turned out anyway, but I figure it'll spark some discussion here. And to be fair, the idea that the Urn was destroyed was already established as non-canon by Leliana's presence in the game anyway.

Also, the protagonist of Asunder, Rhys, has been revealed to by Wynne's son that she mentioned was taken from her during the game. Mother and son will be teaming up to solve a murder mystery in Orlais.

[Giggling Ghast]

That trailer was VERY interesting, particularly when it mentioned this powerful darkspawn has been imprisoned for two thousand years. I cross-referenced the official timeline and discovered something interesting.

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If the Chantry is correct, the Golden City was invaded by the Magister Lords just over two thousand years ago.

I think this might actually be one of the first darkspawn.

EDIT: Apparently it's now canon that the Warden didn't side with the Reavers and destroy the Urn of Sacred Ashes, and that he/she found, activated and restored the memories of Shale, as both Wynne and Shale are major characters in the upcoming novel, Dragon Age: Asunder. This personally doesn't bother me because that's how my game turned out anyway, but I figure it'll spark some discussion here. And to be fair, the idea that the Urn was destroyed was already established as non-canon by Leliana's presence in the game anyway.

Also, the protagonist of Asunder, Rhys, has been revealed to by Wynne's son that she mentioned was taken from her during the game. Mother and son will be teaming up to solve a murder mystery in Orlais.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, as that's how my game turned out as well.

It should be noted that the books aren't purely canon.

[Divayth Fyr]

That trailer was VERY interesting, particularly when it mentioned this powerful darkspawn has been imprisoned for two thousand years. I cross-referenced the official timeline and discovered something interesting.

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If the Chantry is correct, the Golden City was invaded by the Magister Lords just over two thousand years ago.

I think this might actually be one of the first darkspawn.

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Actually (if the timeline at DA Wiki is correct) the darkspawn came to be about 1200 years ago - so the creature shouldn't be one at all. And there would also be no Grey Wardens at that time either...

Also, what kind of darkspawn should be more powerfull than an archdemon (the GW killed those, but this they had to imprison)?

[Giggling Ghast]

Ah. I see where I made my mistake. You are correct.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

That trailer was VERY interesting, particularly when it mentioned this powerful darkspawn has been imprisoned for two thousand years. I cross-referenced the official timeline and discovered something interesting.

Spoiler

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If the Chantry is correct, the Golden City was invaded by the Magister Lords just over two thousand years ago.

I think this might actually be one of the first darkspawn.

...Daaaaaamn, Hawke's family may be even more heroic than I expected!

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, as that's how my game turned out as well.

It should be noted that the books aren't purely canon.

True, but they're pretty damn close. But I liked Wynne and Shale, and am glad to see them having more adventures. And teaming up with Wynne's son to solve a murder mystery? This sounds like it'll be the most awesome Dragon Age novel yet! They've been getting better and better as they go along.

[Arbitrarity]

Real reason friendly fire in DA2 is so devastating on Nightmare:

Idiotic number imbalance.
"Oh hey guys, let's give PC's about 2-300 health"
"Sounds good"
"Ok, now they should be able to do lots of damage"
"But then how do we make trash mobs not instant die?"
"Easy, give trash tier mobs 500 health, normal ones 1100, and bosses 2-3000"
"So how much damage should fireballs do?"
"Oh, say 150"
"I can see no problem with this design, in that trash mobs take 3-4 AOE attacks to kill, while these same attacks will nearly instagib a player character"

[Honest Tiefling]

...Daaaaaamn, Hawke's family may be even more heroic than I expected!

Little preemptive but should various theories pan out, I think we might have the next forum thread title. Hawke: Fereldan for ***-kicker!

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Of course, it is hinted that this is either wrong, or the chantry is wrong. Or really bad with numbers. (2000? 1200? Eh. It has a two in it)

While is is rampant speculation, I sorta wonder how people view the chantry. How many would prefer for the Chantry to be correct, possibly validating that religion, vs. the Chantry being wildly inaccurate with some details and all that would imply?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Little preemptive but should various theories pan out, I think we might have the next forum thread title. Hawke: Fereldan for ***-kicker!

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Of course, it is hinted that this is either wrong, or the chantry is wrong. Or really bad with numbers. (2000? 1200? Eh. It has a two in it)

While is is rampant speculation, I sorta wonder how people view the chantry. How many would prefer for the Chantry to be correct, possibly validating that religion, vs. the Chantry being wildly inaccurate with some details and all that would imply?

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Honestly, I'm not sure. I want to respect the Chantry, as they're a strong community binder and many of them are great people (Elthina, Thrask, etc.). But on the other hand, they also produce horrible zealots both for and against them (Petrice, the Qunari, Anders etc.). While I acknowledge the dangers of magic, you've got to admit that, in terms of how it was run, Kirkwall had PROBLEMS.

Here's some more random speculation about Legacy in general though. What if this mysterious darkspawn we're hearing about is the "He" that Sandal mentions rising? If the suspicions that he was one of the original darkspawn (which seems to be coroborated by him saying "I seek the Light!" which could well mean the Golden City) turn out to be correct, it may be that Sandal wasn't talking about the Mage/Chantry conflict at all!

[Honest Tiefling]

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While I acknowledge the dangers of magic, you've got to admit that, in terms of how it was run, Kirkwall had PROBLEMS.

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I greatly suspect that a theme of Dragon Age is that if people are born with tremendous destructive powers, it really isn't the world's best idea to isolate them from positive social interaction.

Hug your local mage before they turn into abominations!

Through I think the worst thing to do would be to make the Chantry wrong and diminish the good they have done, and the good they tried to do. Yes, lots of bad apples, but not all of them were bad. Now that I think about it, I hope Templars get enough screentime to show off more good templars in future games/DLC, actually.

And you have made Sandal several times scarier...So I wonder if he's affected by 'his' return at all. I would be sad, as Sandal was a surprisingly likable character.

[VanBuren]

Little preemptive but should various theories pan out, I think we might have the next forum thread title. Hawke: Fereldan for ***-kicker!

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Of course, it is hinted that this is either wrong, or the chantry is wrong. Or really bad with numbers. (2000? 1200? Eh. It has a two in it)

While is is rampant speculation, I sorta wonder how people view the chantry. How many would prefer for the Chantry to be correct, possibly validating that religion, vs. the Chantry being wildly inaccurate with some details and all that would imply?

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I'd be happy with a situation where the Chantry got it right in broad strokes, but lost something in the details

[Aux-Ash]

I really wouldn't say it's like not getting a cold in a videogame. The mage-templar is the crux of the entire plot - Playing a mage in Templar City is kind of asking for it. At least throw a few Templars at the player for every time they flagrantly abuse their plot-armor.

For example, say that we have a city under quarantine. The Virus has infected quite a few citizens, and awakened in them some psychic powers. In an attempt to keep control, the government places those citizens under heavy lock-down, and the (army, navy, spase mahrines) has/have been ordered to take down potentially dangerous infectees with extreme prejudice. Now, imagine we are the protagonist of such a setting. And we're pretty much throwing cars, lighting birds on fire, and kicking the asses of whichever party has looked at us funny. Now, imagine the spase navarmy doesn't even bat an eye. Exaggeration? Probably. But you get my point.

First of all: Yes, I agree with you in principle. I'm the kind of DM that does that to my players (and I tell them that). I think a player should face the consequences of their choices

But I also understand why Bioware do not do this. It basically devolves to one very simple reason: the only true way to resolve a conflict is to fight. Yes, sometimes you do indeed get the opportunity to resolve something peacefully, but most conflicts can only be won if fought. You can't really choose not to fight.
Mages are a very integrated part of the games necessary tactics. Choosing not to fight with a mage is seriously handicapping yourself, especially since they provide the healing.

In a way... when a fight happens, the player does not choose to abuse their plot-armour. It's forced upon them. Consequences are good, but consequences fopr something you did not choose is not. That's just frustrating.

That's why you got plot-immunity against the Templars, just like you got plot immunity against the law (no, seriously. Given how often Hawke fights in public you'd expect a number of manslaughter, murder and disturbing the peace charges. Yet no guards try to arrest me... even before Aveline gets promoted).
The only way we'll ever see true consequences would require two major paradigm shiftes from Bioware: 1) That combat is no longer the primary challange-resolution method and 2) that bioware starts hitting you with consequences of what you choose on a meta-level as well.

[Nero24200]

There are better ways to handle plot immunity with regards to the templars. You couldn't use magic in the city in Baldur's Gate 2 but they did a good job of handling it.

• You could have it that some of the thugs jumping you at night are actually templars who waited till they had reinforcements.
• They could maybe have a small quest where you obtained forged documents claiming you have permission to leave the circle for some form of study (which seems plausable considering some mages do have permission to leave the circle for some tasks, as in Awakening you are given a quest to find a mage on leave to study botany.
• You could have a quest during which you bribe one of the higher ranking templars (possibly with lyrium) and he orders some templars to "look the other way" as long as you don't go too overboard with your spells.

There were ways to handle the whole templar mage thing better, they just didn't bother.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Edit: Trailer for Dragon Age: Legacy (the recently announced DLC).

My reaction: meh. Like all too many video game trailers these days, it comes across as just a generic action movie trailer to me. I think I've become inured to those.

Zevox

...SONUVA!!! I just spent the majority of the rest of my points getting the Exiled Prince! Sebastian better be worth it...

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....Also, is it just me or does the new Warrior/Hawke specific weapon look a lot like the Lyrium Broadsword that Meredith has?........I know it can't be that, cause Meredith has the blasted thing from Act II on, but that sword looks suspiciously like the blasted thing.

[Aux-Ash]

There are better ways to handle plot immunity with regards to the templars. You couldn't use magic in the city in Baldur's Gate 2 but they did a good job of handling it.

The difference between the Cowled Wizards and the Kirkwall templars is that the former were wizards trying to maintain their monopoly/control of magic in a city. You could easily bypass that by obliging to their terms and pay them a fee (or do a job for them) or scare them off, regardless it was not a main plot point. The latter is a order led by a paranoid fanatic that wants to see all mages brought into a massively controlled facility or, failing that, dead. The cowled wizards just don't want you to disturb their sense of control, the templars want to control -you- (or your companions)

You could have it that some of the thugs jumping you at night are actually templars who waited till they had reinforcements.

I see three problems with this: 1) Why attack you in an ambush at night when they could storm your home and hold your family at swordpoint, they clearly know who you are after all. 2) Your protagonist armour would mean that despite outgunning, outnumbering and outinfluencing... they can't touch you and 3) firmly place the templars as antagonists.

Instead of making them oblivious towards/unaware of you they'd be stupid, weak and the biggest problem: the plot needs them to be not outright hostile towards you. A big part of it consists of that free mages aren't much better after all. If the templars outright attack you (and they would, seeing all parties more or less needs a mage) then they're firmly in the enemies camp. Certain choices in the end would turn out to be very very easy (and not in the Templar's favour).
Not to mention that instead of the templars not reacting to you being hard to explain... it would make Meredith's, Cullen's and Thrask's dealings with you even more inexplicable. Because as bad as it is now... at least you haven't been mass murdering their collegues/men/friends (to their knowledge).

They could maybe have a small quest where you obtained forged documents claiming you have permission to leave the circle for some form of study (which seems plausable considering some mages do have permission to leave the circle for some tasks, as in Awakening you are given a quest to find a mage on leave to study botany.

It'd be a neat way to solve it, sure. But I did cover this solution above: It falls in the category of "making a second game just for mages". Before you'd be allowed to leave the circle you'd have to join/be forced into it. Which means a harrowing, a cell and a templar always on your tail. It'd cause a whole slew of trouble when he reports back to Meredith... I'd expect a tranquilisation... or just being locked into said cell.

You could have a quest during which you bribe one of the higher ranking templars (possibly with lyrium) and he orders some templars to "look the other way" as long as you don't go too overboard with your spells.

Going overboard with spells. You mean like openly using them against citizens, taking up blood magic and attacking the odd templar?
The problem is that we are going overboard with them. If we were subtle it'd be a whole lot easier to explain and accept this issue.

There were ways to handle the whole templar mage thing better, they just didn't bother.

As I said... there's six options:
Handwaving it for player conveniece at the expense of immersion.
Restricting players from having access to mages
Making mages irrelevant in combat so you don't need to have one in the party.
Toning down the combat aspect so much that you don't need to openly use magic.
Rewriting the plot and/or lore entirely.
Making a separate plot only for mages.

The first one they did. The second one would probably have been intolerable to the community (and playing a mage can be fun/interesting). The third one is a very unattractive option. The fourth requiring a new engine and/or a paradigm shift in the design. The fifth is a bit unattractive since it is a interesting conflict and the intolerance to mages is one of the most interesting parts of DA lore. The sixth is a resource issue.

It is the easiest solution. Is it a poor one? Yes. But the other ones are either expensive or worse.

But it's no different form that the long arm of the law ignores you walking about heavily armed, randomly starting fights and killing people. Even despite that you probably make a magistrate furious. Why is the templars not going after you unacceptable when the city guards does even less and have a lot more reason to do so. You are a danger to people in the city. You ought to have been arrested a long time ago... and probably executed.
The reason: you are a player. It'd be difficult to grant you freedom to play the game while at the same time making the law immersive.

[Callos_DeTerran]

As I said... there's six options:
Handwaving it for player conveniece at the expense of immersion.
Restricting players from having access to mages
Making mages irrelevant in combat so you don't need to have one in the party.
Toning down the combat aspect so much that you don't need to openly use magic.
Rewriting the plot and/or lore entirely.
Making a separate plot only for mages.

The first one they did. The second one would probably have been intolerable to the community (and playing a mage can be fun/interesting). The third one is a very unattractive option. The fourth requiring a new engine and/or a paradigm shift in the design. The fifth is a bit unattractive since it is a interesting conflict and the intolerance to mages is one of the most interesting parts of DA lore. The sixth is a resource issue.

It is the easiest solution. Is it a poor one? Yes. But the other ones are either expensive or worse.

But it's no different form that the long arm of the law ignores you walking about heavily armed, randomly starting fights and killing people. Even despite that you probably make a magistrate furious. Why is the templars not going after you unacceptable when the city guards does even less and have a lot more reason to do so. You are a danger to people in the city. You ought to have been arrested a long time ago... and probably executed.
The reason: you are a player. It'd be difficult to grant you freedom to play the game while at the same time making the law immersive.

Just want to bring up a couple points about a rather well-thought out argument here.

1) I've gone without using a mage in the party at all. Granted, I play on Normal, so take this with a grain of salt, but it's perfectly possible to make it to Act II (where the Templars can't go after you easily) without exposing yourself as a mage or mage harborer.

2) Even then, there's a LOT of apostates and blood mages running around who are actively doing actually demon-y...things. Hawke, even confrontational Hawke, is at best a criminal force and not an evil one, barring the use of Blood Magic. And, unless you use Maker's Sigh, it's actually a bit difficult to get to the noticeable blood-magic spells before Act II, so it's distinctly possible that they don't find out that you're a blood mage. Even then, there's bigger fish to fry with abominations and evil blood mages. This is less a case of 'Templars are ignorant' as much as 'templars are busy with mages who are an actual threat' Note at the end of Act II (if you play a mage) Meredith even says she'll postpone dealing with you in favor of the city and this is AFTER she acquires some of the Sealed Evil in a Can. Even the most fanatical (if well-intentioned) of the templars is willing to let you slide since you don't make yourself a big problem and other mages do. Though she does mention in the Third Act, only if you take certain dialogue options though, that she's still perfectly willing to lock you in the Gallows if you stop being helpful or something like that, consequences be damned.

3) Half the time, how do they know Hawke's the mage doing it? As said, there are a LOT of illegal mages in Kirkwall and the deeds of Hawke, Merril, Bethany, and Anders could be confused as the deeds of another mage. Especially since Anders does take pains to avoid the templars, Merril...doesn't leave her house much after a certain point, and Bethany is resolved one way or the other. And I think, don't quote me, that Aveline/Varrick/Someone informs the Hawke family whenever a templar raid is about to happen so they can properly hide themselves.

4) On the guard, Aveline looks out for Hawke, even before becoming guard captain. This probably includes telling her old captain that Hawke is working for her if Hawke does something shady and questions are asked. After she's guard captain, it's a simple matter that Hawke is doing good. Aveline might not like some of the stuff Hawke does, but she can't argue with the results most of the time, is Hawke's friend, and would prefer Hawke was out and about since good will be accomplished one way or the other. Plus, Hawke does useful jobs for Aveline.

[Mx.Silver]

Mages are a very integrated part of the games necessary tactics. Choosing not to fight with a mage is seriously handicapping yourself, especially since they provide the healing.

Which kind of raises the question why they bothered going writing the background about mages the way they did. It's not like it adds a whole lot to the setting anyway (particularly if you're familiar with Warhammer Fantasy) and it might have enabled more interesting options for mage origins back in DAO. Then again, background and setting have always been my least favourite aspects about the DA games (that and the lack of spears and other polearms) so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

[Aux-Ash]

1) I've gone without using a mage in the party at all. Granted, I play on Normal, so take this with a grain of salt, but it's perfectly possible to make it to Act II (where the Templars can't go after you easily) without exposing yourself as a mage or mage harborer.

Indeed, it's not like it's difficult to make the handwave seem plausible. I did the same. It's only if you openly use distinct blood magic in public this becomes a problem. If you actually try to hide that it's really no issue at all.
And as you do mention, there is some reaction to your nature. Meredith in particular extorts you with it and openly threatens Anders that it is only Hawke's name that protects him.

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Even then, there's a LOT of apostates and blood mages running around who are actively doing actually demon-y...things. Hawke, even confrontational Hawke, is at best a criminal force and not an evil one, barring the use of Blood Magic. And, unless you use Maker's Sigh, it's actually a bit difficult to get to the noticeable blood-magic spells before Act II, so it's distinctly possible that they don't find out that you're a blood mage. Even then, there's bigger fish to fry with abominations and evil blood mages. This is less a case of 'Templars are ignorant' as much as 'templars are busy with mages who are an actual threat' Note at the end of Act II (if you play a mage) Meredith even says she'll postpone dealing with you in favor of the city and this is AFTER she acquires some of the Sealed Evil in a Can. Even the most fanatical (if well-intentioned) of the templars is willing to let you slide since you don't make yourself a big problem and other mages do. Though she does mention in the Third Act, only if you take certain dialogue options though, that she's still perfectly willing to lock you in the Gallows if you stop being helpful or something like that, consequences be damned.

(spoilered for brevity)
Again, agreed. Like mentioned above, even if they do handwave a case of no consequence they do indeed give some plausible reasonings behind it.

Half the time, how do they know Hawke's the mage doing it? As said, there are a LOT of illegal mages in Kirkwall and the deeds of Hawke, Merril, Bethany, and Anders could be confused as the deeds of another mage. Especially since Anders does take pains to avoid the templars, Merril...doesn't leave her house much after a certain point, and Bethany is resolved one way or the other. And I think, don't quote me, that Aveline/Varrick/Someone informs the Hawke family whenever a templar raid is about to happen so they can properly hide themselves.

Yes. I seem to recall Merill even acknowledging that it'd be dangerous to out herself as a mage in the alienage and actually refrains from using it when not in your presence. And if Bethany stays home, she is indeed taken.
Meredith does learn of Anders, but only after Hawke's name start to mean something (or perhaps they actually tolerated him because of the good works he did with the clinic)

The only real way to run into this issue is to throw the lore out the window and openly and visibly use blood magic as if it was the most natural thing to do.
Basically.. it's not much of an issue if you try to immerse yourself. There's some instances were it can come across as odd. But if you try to be subtle it's certainly possible.

On the guard, Aveline looks out for Hawke, even before becoming guard captain. This probably includes telling her old captain that Hawke is working for her if Hawke does something shady and questions are asked. After she's guard captain, it's a simple matter that Hawke is doing good. Aveline might not like some of the stuff Hawke does, but she can't argue with the results most of the time, is Hawke's friend, and would prefer Hawke was out and about since good will be accomplished one way or the other. Plus, Hawke does useful jobs for Aveline.

Still... the reason vigilanteism isn't tolerated is that it makes people lose respect for the law. And that can make society break down. Blood feuds happens when people take the law into their own hands. Even if you only target criminals, those people have families too... Hawke's actions around the city is civil unrest waiting to happen. Families will demand vengence for lost kin, criminal groups will pressure the corrupt elements of the city to get Hawke out of the picture... criminals will start to hire muscle and be heavily armed.

Contrary to popular belief... killing criminals does not make the streets safer. It makes them into warzones.

Any society caring for it's continued existance would never let a person like Hawke run about. And while Aveline's presence would help, sooner or later even she would be forced to act or be replaced.

Which kind of raises the question why they bothered going writing the background about mages the way they did. It's not like it adds a whole lot to the setting anyway (particularly if you're familiar with Warhammer Fantasy) and it might have enabled more interesting options for mage origins back in DAO. Then again, background and setting have always been my least favourite aspects about the DA games (that and the lack of spears and other polearms) so feel free to take this with a grain of salt.

Because mechanics should serve the setting, not the other way around.
In the setting, a sword can kill with a single stroke. Magic is damn exhausting to use and magical healing a lot less certain. It's just as dirty, lethal and dangerous as the real world.
The mechanics add a simplification that's easy to follow and adds enough protection to make things challenging and interesting. Having combat be so dangerous as in real life seldom works well because by flinching it could all be over for you. Which can be very frustrating.
The game is designed to be a party-based semi-strategical rpg in the DnD vein. Just like there's hitpoints, every class has a role to fill tactically. It is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate in that the design of the game is built on similar assumptions and goals.

How mages are treated is also a very logical extension on how mages would be treating if they could shoot fire from their hands, control people's minds and become monsters at no warning at all...
They'd be feared, shunned and locked up. People wouldn't find them cool or fascinating, but very very frightening.

[Mx.Silver]

Because mechanics should serve the setting, not the other way around.

Regardless of whether that's actually true (in game design, mechanics can often be designed before the fluff is written) the point is in this case there's an obvious clash when your combat revolves around magical support in a setting where mages are feared and reviled. Changing the setting would probably have been easier to implement than a change in the core mechanics.

How mages are treated is also a very logical extension on how mages would be treating if they could shoot fire from their hands, control people's minds and become monsters at no warning at all...
They'd be feared, shunned and locked up. People wouldn't find them cool or fascinating, but very very frightening.

Again, depends on how you write the setting. I would imagine that someone being able to shoot fire from their hands would be less of a big deal if it's fairly commonplace. Making it so that mages are all potential abominations in waiting who have an entire military order dedicated to killing any who aren't part of the registration probably isn't a good decision for a game where most fights will feature magic users. Particularly when that's held as a defining feature of your setting that's supposed to stop it from being 'generic medieval-esque fantasy world number 272' (and no, the Darkspawn alone aren't enough for that).

[Zevox]

Spoiler

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While is is rampant speculation, I sorta wonder how people view the chantry. How many would prefer for the Chantry to be correct, possibly validating that religion, vs. the Chantry being wildly inaccurate with some details and all that would imply?

I think it would be much more interesting for the Chantry to be largely wrong. Perhaps with a kernel of truth to their myths (say for instance that the Tevinter Magisters actually did attack the Black/Golden City, but for very different reasons than the Chantry believes), but with them having changed (intentionally or not) nearly all the important details to suit their purposes. Besides, the Dragon Age is supposed to be a period of great change for Thedas, and what greater change could be wrought to the world than proving that the Chantry was a farce all along?

Zevox

[JadedDM]

Eh, I hope not. The whole 'the main religion turns out to be false' is so overdone in RPGs these days. One of the things I really liked about Dragon Age was that the validity of the Chantry was so up in the air. Was Andraste the bride of the maker, or just a powerful mage? Did her ashes have healing properties because of divine power, or because they were buried around so much lyrium? Is the Maker a god? A very powerful fade spirit? A very powerful demon? Completely non-existent?

I would be rather disappointed if the beliefs of the Chantry were proven without a doubt, either to be true or false.

[Dienekes]

Personally I'd rather they not touch the truth behind the Chant at all. Let the players own biases determine how they feel about the various religions the game describes.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Eh, I hope not. The whole 'the main religion turns out to be false' is so overdone in RPGs these days. One of the things I really liked about Dragon Age was that the validity of the Chantry was so up in the air. Was Andraste the bride of the maker, or just a powerful mage? Did her ashes have healing properties because of divine power, or because they were buried around so much lyrium? Is the Maker a god? A very powerful fade spirit? A very powerful demon? Completely non-existent?

I would be rather disappointed if the beliefs of the Chantry were proven without a doubt, either to be true or false.

Got to agree here. Prove it either way, and you raise a great number of questions about the nature of the world and how it got to be that way. Dragon Age's moral ambiguity crumbles in the face of D&D-style religion where the gods are a tangible and verifiable thing.

Still, anyone else have an opinion on whether this super-darkspawn we're hearing about is the "He" Sandal mentioned rising?

[Delusion]

That decides it. My next playthrough will be with superstitious warrior, without a mage in party, on hard (or normal on some fights that might prove too hard. I am looking at you ancient rockwraith!).

[Edge]

Got to agree here. Prove it either way, and you raise a great number of questions about the nature of the world and how it got to be that way. Dragon Age's moral ambiguity crumbles in the face of D&D-style religion where the gods are a tangible and verifiable thing.

Still, anyone else have an opinion on whether this super-darkspawn we're hearing about is the "He" Sandal mentioned rising?

Having never heard this line from Sandal, I looked it up on the DA wiki. The context makes it sound more like he's talking about the god baby. But, of course, he won't exist in every playthrough.

Also, the leaked achievements for Legacy possibly hint at this talking darkspawn's name. Potential spoiler warning, to be fair.

[Giggling Ghast]

Hey, is that Jerrik Dace in the trailer?

Watched the trailer. Was that Jennifer Hale's voice as the Grey Warden lady?

No, it's the same actress who voiced Mistress Woolsey from Awakening, unless I'm mistaken.

Got to agree here. Prove it either way, and you raise a great number of questions about the nature of the world and how it got to be that way. Dragon Age's moral ambiguity crumbles in the face of D&D-style religion where the gods are a tangible and verifiable thing.

Still, anyone else have an opinion on whether this super-darkspawn we're hearing about is the "He" Sandal mentioned rising?

I think it's rather inevitable that the truth behind the Chant of Light will be revealed, as I think we're heading towards the return of the Maker. I feel it in my gut.

Because I believe Sandal's cryptic prophecy is related to the return of the Maker, I don't think this 'Corypheus' and Sandal's prophecy are related.

[Aux-Ash]

Regardless of whether that's actually true (in game design, mechanics can often be designed before the fluff is written) the point is in this case there's an obvious clash when your combat revolves around magical support in a setting where mages are feared and reviled. Changing the setting would probably have been easier to implement than a change in the core mechanics.

Dragon age was in development for five years though, the way I understood it was that the mechanics changed a lot during those years. If I recall correctly for instance, originally the mages had a lyrium addiction mechanic that grew worse the more magic/mana potions they used. The writing was tweaked too of course, but there was a lot of it by the time game development proper started.

The problem as a whole to changing setting to serve the mechanics is that the mechanics are only supposed to be a interface, They're supposed to let you interact with the world in a fun way, not define it. IN a lot of cases the mechanics as is are also compromises, not a "this is what we wnated" but a "this is the best we could do in the time we had". Changing the setting to accomodate something you ended up with would be a poor move.

Now as for the usefullness of mages. Mages are so useful because the underlying core of the game is that is party-based. A good move would therefore be to make very partymember contributeable. Including the mages.
This also ties in to the setting. Mages are useful. They provide very valuable solutions to mundane problems. That's why they're being kept alive by both Qunari and Chantry in the first place.

Again, depends on how you write the setting. I would imagine that someone being able to shoot fire from their hands would be less of a big deal if it's fairly commonplace. Making it so that mages are all potential abominations in waiting who have an entire military order dedicated to killing any who aren't part of the registration probably isn't a good decision for a game where most fights will feature magic users. Particularly when that's held as a defining feature of your setting that's supposed to stop it from being 'generic medieval-esque fantasy world number 272' (and no, the Darkspawn alone aren't enough for that).

In my opinion, the core theme of DA is clashing beliefs and moral dilemmas. The Chantry and the Imperial Chantry. The Chantry and the Qun. Humans and Dalish. Casteless and Noble dwarves. Grey Wardens and the king of Anderfels. Circles and Apostates. Loghain and Eamon. Orlesians and Fereldans. Meredith and the Viscount. Meredith and Orsino.
And that there's no object truths to any of these.

Having the mages feature in one is good. And the core dilemma with mages is that they're so very useful. Is it right to lock them away if you depend on them so much. That is the core question regarding mages in DA. Just one of many clashes.

Again, in my opinion; The world would be so much less interesting if noone batted an eyelash at mages just because the interface to the world makes them useful in combat.

[Mx.Silver]

The problem as a whole to changing setting to serve the mechanics is that the mechanics are only supposed to be a interface, They're supposed to let you interact with the world in a fun way, not define it.

I can think of several Genres of videogame were that doesn't seem to hold true (e.g. RTS, 4X TBS) but whatever, that's not really the matter at hand.

Changing the setting to accomodate something you ended up with would be a poor move.

If it would improve the cohesiveness of the game experience, how would it be a poor move.

In my opinion, the core theme of DA is clashing beliefs and moral dilemmas.
The Chantry and the Imperial Chantry. The Chantry and the Qun. Humans and Dalish. Casteless and Noble dwarves. Grey Wardens and the king of Anderfels. Circles and Apostates. Loghain and Eamon. Orlesians and Fereldans. Meredith and the Viscount. Meredith and Orsino.
And that there's no object truths to any of these.

I'm not talking about core themes, I'm talking about distinguishing features. Moral dilemmas are nothing out of the ordinary these days, and the ones in DA for the most part aren't anything special (the Urn of Ashes and Werewolf Curse do stand out, but for entirely the wrong reasons).
The point being, having moral ambiguity on it's own doesn't stop Fereldan being 'generic medieval-esque fantasy world number 272'. The mage situation is at least a distinguishing feature (albeit with marked similarities to Warhammer Fantasy). Yes, The Fade is more original but it's so under-utilised it doesn't really count.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

No, it's the same actress who voiced Mistress Woolsey from Awakening, unless I'm mistaken.

You sure? Because she sounded like Bastila to me.

I think it's rather inevitable that the truth behind the Chant of Light will be revealed, as I think we're heading towards the return of the Maker. I feel it in my gut.

Because I believe Sandal's cryptic prophecy is related to the return of the Maker, I don't think this 'Corypheus' and Sandal's prophecy are related.

I'm not so certain I like that theory. Definitively showing what the Maker truly is and such creates an entirely different dimension to the games. We start getting into Silmarillion territory where our initial games have been more like the Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit respectively.

It takes us out of the realm of mortal politics and down-to-earth stuff and into the realm of pure mythology. While I like games that are pure mythology, that just doesn't feel "Dragon Age" to me.