GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[Zelkon]

I like this topic! If only I'd waited to post my Faceless Man PrC!

By way of gauging interest, what would people think about something based on Siddhartha by Herman Hesse? Are people still reading that book? Or has it fallen out of popular culture completely? I'm thinking a class that requires VoP and is based on the samanas Hesse describes on pp. 11-12. Abilities would include feats of endurance (pain, hunger, exhaustion, etc.) and the ability to, through meditation, leave one's original body and enter into the bodies of other creatures and objects. Interesting or boring? Too obscure?

Read it not too long ago-ish for school, and I don't think they've replaced it yet. I honestly hated it, but a class based on it would actually be really cool (it's better in hindsight).

[Glimbur]

As usual, I'm looking to bend the rules.

Would it be ok to base a PrC on the advice given in The Art of War, by Sun Tzu? It's not exactly based on a character in a book. On the other hand, I just checked the book out from the library.

[Edge]

Unlike last contest, where I only had a few vague ideas that amounted to nothing, I have a very definite one this time: the Abhorsen, based on Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy.

[sirpercival]

Unlike last contest, where I only had a few vague ideas that amounted to nothing, I have a very definite one this time: the Abhorsen, based on Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy.

Hey that's awesome, I love those books.

I am currently hard at work on the Candysmith

[malonkey1]

A Wonka PrC? Awesome! I just put some more stuff into my Crack Lawyer class. It's based off of lawyers in general, but I got the idea from Atticus Finch to start, hence his place at the top of the screen.

[ErrantX]

Unlike last contest, where I only had a few vague ideas that amounted to nothing, I have a very definite one this time: the Abhorsen, based on Garth Nix's Old Kingdom trilogy.

I'm reading those books right now! That's so awesome :D

-X

[MoleMage]

If I can think of a good place to start for them, I might try Furycrafters from Jim Butcher's Caulderon series. But if someone else wants to do this go ahead. I'm really busy and might not have time to do it justice.

[sirpercival]

If I can think of a good place to start for them, I might try Furycrafters from Jim Butcher's Caulderon series. But if someone else wants to do this go ahead. I'm really busy and might not have time to do it justice.

I actually thought about how to do this once... it was for a base class, though. You picked up more types of furies as you leveled, and they were kind of like a cross between an animal companion and an elemental companion.

[Techwarrior]

Ymurri Stalker

I think yes.

[sirpercival]

Ymurri Stalker

I think yes.

Oh, awesome!

[Morph Bark]

Ymurri Stalker

I think yes.

Do I smell Nightangel Trilogy?

[Techwarrior]

Do I smell Nightangel Trilogy?

Absolutely. Hell I'm running a game on MW set that world, half a century after. I've got the basics planned out for a NPC I'm going to use.

[Mephibosheth]

The crunch for my Samana of the Woods PrC, based on Herman Hesse's Siddhartha is tentatively done. I'd really appreciate any input, especially on the flee from Self and final emptiness of Self abilities. They're fairly open-ended abilities and I'm not sure I've closed the loopholes I should; at least as far as I can within the text of the ability. A lot of its power is going to come from the enemies the DM chooses, which can't be controlled for in the class. But I want to make sure that the ability itself doesn't open the door to any crazy broken tricks. So any and all input would be wonderful!

Thanks!

[sirpercival]

The crunch for my Samana of the Woods PrC, based on Herman Hesse's Siddhartha is tentatively done. I'd really appreciate any input, especially on the flee from Self and final emptiness of Self abilities. They're fairly open-ended abilities and I'm not sure I've closed the loopholes I should; at least as far as I can within the text of the ability. A lot of its power is going to come from the enemies the DM chooses, which can't be controlled for in the class. But I want to make sure that the ability itself doesn't open the door to any crazy broken tricks. So any and all input would be wonderful!

Thanks!

So, first off, the class reminds me of a refluffed Stranger with the Burning Eyes.

Now, on to the actual mechanics. First off, the Power in Austerity has absolutely no effect at the level that you give it. I'd either move it to second level or (preferred) move the signature ability to level 1. At the moment, level 1 is nearly a dead level, giving you all of DR 1/- and a niche bonus to saves.

As for the signature ability, it's way too swingy for my tastes. On the one hand, you don't start being able to use it on level-appropriate targets until about 5th level; on the other hand, it can give you an incredible variety of capabilities, and is kind of broken because of it; on the third hand, your body is so vulnerable that it's dangerous to do it at all, especially at low level when you won't be getting anywhere near your return on investment.

The other abilities are good filler, but the meat of the class needs some work IMO.

[Mephibosheth]

So, first off, the class reminds me of a refluffed Stranger with the Burning Eyes.

Thanks for the link! That's an interesting class!

Now, on to the actual mechanics. First off, the Power in Austerity has absolutely no effect at the level that you give it. I'd either move it to second level or (preferred) move the signature ability to level 1. At the moment, level 1 is nearly a dead level, giving you all of DR 1/- and a niche bonus to saves.

Good point. I've made all the class abilities contingent on Power of Austerity, so it has some utility at 1st level. Ultimately, it's supposed to be more of a hindrance than a benefit, but the way of the ascetic isn't supposed to be easy! I want it to be a part of the entire progression of the class to emphasize the inherent link between asceticism and the class abilities.

As for the signature ability, it's way too swingy for my tastes. On the one hand, you don't start being able to use it on level-appropriate targets until about 5th level;

Now that you mention it, I can't believe I didn't notice this! But you're absolutely right. Would a HD cap of 5 + Wis mod + class level work better? I hesitate to use character level to discourage dipping and like the possibility of making the ability better by pumping Wis. Thoughts?

on the other hand, it can give you an incredible variety of capabilities, and is kind of broken because of it;

This was and is my main concern. The problem is that there are so many creatures from so many different authors all with different ideas of balance; I can't think of any way to rein this in other than "DM's, don't mess up!" Maybe a list of abilities you can use? But there are so many possibilities!

on the third hand, your body is so vulnerable that it's dangerous to do it at all, especially at low level when you won't be getting anywhere near your return on investment.

Hopefully this is less of a problem now that they have access to better forms right off the bat. But probably not. I don't want to eliminate the risk of attack to the meditating body, otherwise it's effectively Polymorph. I also don't want to add a bunch of defenses for no reason other than to make this less of a risk. I'll have to think on this some.

Thanks again for the comments!

[Mephibosheth]

The more I work on it, the more I'm dissatisfied with the way the Samana's going, so I'm withdrawing it. Thanks, sirpercival, for the helpful comments! And sorry for the double post.

[sirpercival]

The more I work on it, the more I'm dissatisfied with the way the Samana's going, so I'm withdrawing it. Thanks, sirpercival, for the helpful comments! And sorry for the double post.

Oh no! :( This isn't what I was hoping for... I'd be happy to help you brainstorm some alternate way to realize the concept, because I think it's really cool (otherwise I wouldn't have bothered commenting).

[Mephibosheth]

Don't worry; I was contemplating this well before your comments! I was struggling with the open-endedness of Flee from Self, trying to shoe-horn the description from Siddhartha into the D&D rules set and cope with the vast vast number of possible abilities they could gain from different creatures. That, and I was having some crises of flavor from multiple sources; as much as I love it, Siddhartha was a poor choice for this contest given the need to skirt the boundaries of the board's prohibition of discussion of real-world religion and I was resorting to increasingly-byzantine machinations when trying to come up with reasons why a Samana would join a party and adventure. I may still try to come up with something along this theme, but the more I thought about it, the less I liked limiting myself to the depiction in Siddhartha. Making it increasingly less appropriate for the contest. I still have what I wrote so far so it may reappear. But it just wasn't a creation I wanted to represent me in the contest. I may think of something else; I love this theme and want to participate.

[Tragak]

I'm working on a Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Alucard Hellsing-esque PrC for the "Based on a Bestseller" Contest, and I'm wondering what kind of feats beyond "Vampire Hunter" are good for fiend-killing that could work as Bonus Feats for certain levels.

[ErrantX]

I'm working on a Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Alucard Hellsing-esque PrC for the "Based on a Bestseller" Contest, and I'm wondering what kind of feats beyond "Vampire Hunter" are good for fiend-killing that could work as Bonus Feats for certain levels.

Love the concept, but I have to say, Bonus Feats do not a class feature make. Instead focus on unique class abilities that really says, "I'm no mere bonus feat, I am flavor and potency, mixed into one. I am the sriracha of class features!" Consider giving improvised weapon abilities, improved staking abilities, and more than just favored enemy. Make it something important, like "Destined Foe" and give it more than the standard bonuses of Favored Enemy give like AC and save boosts too. Don't be afraid to make it stronger than the average bear; prestige classes are specialists in their field, not a mere ranger who's abilities are broader and more generalized. Look at the monk class, ranger, and rogue for inspiration. Give the slayer class something like the ability to final death vampires instead of letting them go misty, and same goes for liches. These are strong abilities that are specialized to a specific foe; in their field they're peerless, in others... they're so-so.

I'm not terrible knowledgeable of Alucard, but as a Buffy fan I can say that the Slayer has a lot of potency. You could have it get some stat boosts as well, and faster healing to get back to the job quick. Don't fall into the fighter's trap; bonus feats may be alright for the fighter, but for prestige classes, it's best to stay away from them I feel.

My 2 coppers,
-X

[malonkey1]

Word to what ErrantX said, plus also, I feel they should be able to sneak attack and score crits on undead. It fits thematically.

[ErrantX]

Word to what ErrantX said, plus also, I feel they should be able to sneak attack and score crits on undead. It fits thematically.

Or, give them variable 'Slayer Gifts' that function similar to Rogue Talents in which you can pick abilities at 1st, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th level (for example) that give them stuff like +2d6 sneak attack and all sneak attacks function against the undead, etc.

-X

[Tragak]

Thanks, that was fast!

What I have so far is:
1) Attack/Damage bonus against Undead and Evil Outsiders (slightly higher than Smite Evil or Favored Enemy, but nowhere near as versatile as either)
2) Undead can be critically hit
3) Undead and evil outsiders can be paralyzed by powerful attacks for about 3 rounds, with 10 being the absolute maximum under extremely unusual circumstances
4) the slayer gets bonuses to Use Magic Device checks when reading from scrolls of Banishment, Dimensional Anchor, Sunbeam and the such.

Too much? Too little? I realize that I need to work more on the "fluff" like role-play ideas and an NPC example, but it feels like the "crunch" is pretty good so far, is this accurate?

Thanks again!

[sirpercival]

OK, Glass Elevator maneuvers are posted. Now, on to the supplemental material, as well as the candysmith itself.

[Tesla]

I think I have an idea for this contest, and it is a class that I have considered making on several other occasions. However I have a few questions about the rules and expectations if that is alright.

Questions about Rules
11. If the class ties into a new feat set would it be better to post that in another thread, or add it as a second post in the contest thread? [I have four as it sits, and I expect to have ten or more before I make my post. Additionally it would have a paragraph or two explaining requirements to keep the feats active.]

12. My class is blatantly inspired by a particular book series that I enjoy so it technically fits the theme, but it goes above the supernatural abilities displayed in the series. [If I replicated only what they were proven capable of by the reliable narrator it would be more of an NPC prestige class, and so I am taking some liberties with what the unreliable narrator said.] So I was hoping to know if that would be frowned upon.

13. If the particular abilities of the class count as a partial spoiler would that be against the rules? [The abilities are not introduced until book three of the series, but that book was released five years ago.]

Questions about Expectations
14. I know that bonus feats tend to be frowned upon here, but because I am using a synergy feat system to form the basis for entering the class I was thinking about doing something similar to bonus feats. Would people frown upon a class counting certain class features as synergy feats so that the feats tied to the class continue to grow in power? Example: A class that focuses on Aberrant feats providing abilities that count as Aberrant feats, and that perhaps grow in power based on the number of Aberrant feats you have. Essentially linking class levels and feats.

Thank you very much if you answer one of my questions, and best of luck in your own work.

What I have so far is:

1. Focused Training looks perfect to me.

2. Personally, I would make it so that they have a chance to critical hit at early levels, and slowly gain more of a chance to have a critical hit go through as their level increases. However that is just personal taste, and I do like the ability itself.

3. Improved Eldritch Experience, and Greater Eldritch Experience both look pretty good to me.

4. I like the bonuses to UMD for these abilities as it makes logical sense. However I looked at the class and you have them increasing the save DC by a rather large number after a while.

So far I think that you are doing a pretty good job.

[ErrantX]

I think I have an idea for this contest, and it is a class that I have considered making on several other occasions. However I have a few questions about the rules and expectations if that is alright.

Questions about Rules
11. If the class ties into a new feat set would it be better to post that in another thread, or add it as a second post in the contest thread? [I have four as it sits, and I expect to have ten or more before I make my post. Additionally it would have a paragraph or two explaining requirements to keep the feats active.]

It's perfectly reasonable to have a 2nd post if necessary. No worries.

12. My class is blatantly inspired by a particular book series that I enjoy so it technically fits the theme, but it goes above the supernatural abilities displayed in the series. [If I replicated only what they were proven capable of by the reliable narrator it would be more of an NPC prestige class, and so I am taking some liberties with what the unreliable narrator said.] So I was hoping to know if that would be frowned upon.

No, that's fine. It's inspired and based on but not an exact duplicate. Do what needs to be done to make it work!

13. If the particular abilities of the class count as a partial spoiler would that be against the rules? [The abilities are not introduced until book three of the series, but that book was released five years ago.]

That's fine with me.

Questions about Expectations
14. I know that bonus feats tend to be frowned upon here, but because I am using a synergy feat system to form the basis for entering the class I was thinking about doing something similar to bonus feats. Would people frown upon a class counting certain class features as synergy feats so that the feats tied to the class continue to grow in power? Example: A class that focuses on Aberrant feats providing abilities that count as Aberrant feats, and that perhaps grow in power based on the number of Aberrant feats you have. Essentially linking class levels and feats.

Thank you very much if you answer one of my questions, and best of luck in your own work.

That could work; we only frown upon bonus feats as class features if they're poorly defined or just "Here have a feat because I'm too lazy to put something here". Something like that could work.

-X

[ErrantX]

Thanks, that was fast!

What I have so far is:
1) Attack/Damage bonus against Undead and Evil Outsiders (slightly higher than Smite Evil or Favored Enemy, but nowhere near as versatile as either)

Versatility is key. Don't be afraid to make it a more powerful version, or let it stack with favored enemy and do these additional abilities as well (insert additional abilities here).

2) Undead can be critically hit

Pretty standard and necessary. Add in precision damage too.

3) Undead as evil outsiders can be paralyzed by powerful attacks for about 3 rounds, with 10 being the absolute maximum under extremely unusual circumstances

Undead aren't evil outsiders, but assuming you meant AND evil outsiders, make it a die roll, like, 1d4+1 or so rounds.

4) the slayer gets bonuses to Use Magic Device checks when reading from scrolls of Banishment, Dimensional Anchor, Sunbeam and the such.

Kind of a niche ability, honestly. Maybe a flat bonus to activate blindly?

I think you're definitely gonna need more abilities, obviously, and have some that aren't necessarily in combat use, but have some out of combat things that help your class bounce back, or resistance abilities that protect your slayer from the abilities of the undead, such as DR against energy drain or stat damage.

-X

[Tragak]

Versatility is key. Don't be afraid to make it a more powerful version, or let it stack with favored enemy and do these additional abilities as well (insert additional abilities here).

Actually, I just meant that Smite Evil can be used against anything Evil, and Favored Enemy can be taken against a bunch of different types, while Focused Training only applies to Undead and Evil Outsiders (although any and all would stack normally).

Pretty standard and necessary. Add in precision damage too.

Already ahead of you.

Undead aren't evil outsiders, but assuming you meant AND evil outsiders, make it a die roll, like, 1d4+1 or so rounds.

That was the point: 1d4 for the level 6 ability (critical hits), 1d6 for the level 9 ability (50% HP hits)
EDIT: and thanks for correcting the typo

Kind of a niche ability, honestly. Maybe a flat bonus to activate blindly?

I think you're definitely gonna need more abilities, obviously, and have some that aren't necessarily in combat use, but have some out of combat things that help your class bounce back, or resistance abilities that protect your slayer from the abilities of the undead, such as DR against energy drain or stat damage.

OK, hadn't thought of that, thanks. Definitely looking into it.

BTW, is there a way to find an archive of past contest winners? I'm mostly wondering about stuff like where specific fluff information goes and how much depth to put into it, and I'm thinking that seeing the past winners would give me some kind of base-line of what exactly is expected, is this possible?

[Tragak]

Ok, I think it's pretty close to finished now. Did I miss anything, mess anything up?

[inuyasha]

Ok, I think it's pretty close to finished now. Did I miss anything, mess anything up?

even though Im not in this contest (I waited too long and will probably be in the next one ;D) I must say your NPC has a low AC, 17 at level 13? seems like she needs Dex boosters or something, also nice buffy PrC :D