GitP PrC Contest Chat Thread IV

[Mephibosheth]

Vessel of the Ancient Gods is officially done. I can't promise there won't be tweaking, but everything's there. I'd love to hear what people think.

[Rabidmuskrat]

The original idea with Planning Ahead was that you use your Direct Action ability when you make the plan. Therefore, it allows you to stack up uses of Direct Action for the future, but only under specific circumstances. I've since changed it to completely disconnect the two abilities' uses from each other. Direct Action is now a spur of the moment taking charge for a certain number of times per day, while Planning Ahead is an infinite use, long 'casting time' ability.

And I hope you don't mind, I used your wording of the concurrent uses of Planning Ahead, just changed a little so the ability functions as it should. I was actually struggling to word that correctly and then you provided such perfect phrasing.

[Mephibosheth]

The original idea with Planning Ahead was that you use your Direct Action ability when you make the plan. Therefore, it allows you to stack up uses of Direct Action for the future, but only under specific circumstances. I've since changed it to completely disconnect the two abilities' uses from each other. Direct Action is now a spur of the moment taking charge for a certain number of times per day, while Planning Ahead is an infinite use, long 'casting time' ability.

I think the new wording is fine, though the old mechanic linking the two would have been OK as well if you'd just specified that you don't need to deal with the delay between triggering events for Planning Ahead. But since you've eliminated the delay mechanic from Direct Action, that's no longer an issue.

And I hope you don't mind, I used your wording of the concurrent uses of Planning Ahead, just changed a little so the ability functions as it should. I was actually struggling to word that correctly and then you provided such perfect phrasing.

Not at all. That's why I suggested it!

Did I address all your concerns with Vessel of the Ancient Gods? I think I at least touched on everything, but I want to make sure I didn't miss something.

[Rabidmuskrat]

Yep, it looks good. Seems nice and balanced now, at least at first glance. You wouldn't really know until after a bit of playtesting, though, same as with all new creations.

I figure with this setup the leader CAN respond to unexpected situations but is far better at planning it out first (max 3 potential uses vs max 8 potential uses). Think I'm gonna stick with the Unit. The characters I base this class on all have their distinctive 'Team' and this seems more true to that concept.

[Mephibosheth]

PEACH of Dark Driver

This is a pretty good class. Very dark flavor and some interesting new mechanics.

I don't have much to say about the requirements. They look pretty standard for a skill-focused PrC. You say in the introduction that rogue is the best way in, so I'm going to mostly operate from the assumption that you intend this class to be a good choice for a rogue-like skill monkey build. From the requirements standpoint, no major problems.

I would consider giving 6 skill points instead of 4, especially if you want the class to be attractive to rogues and other skillful classes. I know I would definitely think twice about choosing this class on a skill monkey build because 4 skill points would force me to make some difficult decisions about skill allocation. Some of the passenger feats mitigate this concern a bit, but it's still something to think about.

Passenger abilities look fine. Most of them are off the rogue special abilities list anyway, so no major problems. You might want to mention how evasion interacts with other classes that grant evasion. Does the Dark Driver get improved evasion if he already has evasion and selects this ability? Does the sneak attack stack with other sources of sneak attack? I'd assume so (since I can't think of an example where sneak attack from different sources didn't stack) but it might be a good idea to state it outright. Because I love scouts, I'm also going to suggest adding a skirmish-bumping ability. But that's more of a personal preference thing.

What action does hellfire touch require? An attack action? A standard action? If it's an attack action, it could be a pretty devastating ability on a full-attack, especially if you can use two-weapon fighting and other methods of getting extra attacks. Not necessarily overwhelmingly so, but something to consider.

It also progresses pretty quickly for an ability of this type; they tend to advance at every other level. Not a huge problem, but something to consider, especially since it opens you to Legacy Champion and bloodline shenanigans that can increase your class level beyond 10.

HiPS is pretty standard, too. Is there a flavor reason for the connection to shadows? Or is that vestigial from the shadowdancer text?

What does "this includes penalties that they have already taken" mean in the context of ageless body? Do they still suffer penalties they may have gained before acquiring this ability? Or does the ability eliminate previously-imposed penalties from aging?

I assume the temporary hit points from passenger fusion remain until they're lost in combat. Is this the case? It seems a bit strange, since I can't think of any instances where temporary hit points don't age off. That's what makes them temporary, after all!

The passenger feat mechanic is a little confusing, but not too bad. It seems fairly balanced too, though a lot of the penalties associated with it are difficult to assess since they're heavily role-play based. IMO that's OK; this is a game that should be able to accommodate that sort of thing to some extent. It's just something that DMs will have to be aware of.

In general, I think that a lot of the benefits of passenger feats are too small, particularly the skill bonuses granted. Not only does the character have to shoulder significant RP burdens to maintain the feats, but they have to keep taking more passenger feats in order to realize the most benefits. The characters who would most benefit from these feats (skillful characters) are already extremely feat-strapped and have better things to do with their feats in many cases. Maybe following the model of Knowledgeable Passenger and granting the skills as class skills would help. At least, it would make the feats more attractive to fighters and the like for whom feats are easier to come by than new class skills. But the bonuses by themselves seem underwhelming. Shadow Reflexes and Shadow Fortitude are good, but all the others could use a bit of a boost, IMO.

Hope that helps! Nice class so far!

[ErrantX]

So, how much is our deadline extended by because of the shutdown?

Extended by the 8 days we were down, so contest runs through the 10th of May, and Voting til the 20th.

-X

[Temotei]

Extended by the 8 days we were down, so contest runs through the 10th of May, and Voting til the 20th.

-X

I think it was only down for six days, but I'll accept the extra two days.

[sirpercival]

Okie dokie, Candysmith is completely done! (Unless I decide/have time to add a Glass Elevator legacy weapon. But that may come after the contest is finished.)

Anyone wanna take a look, give me some feedback?

[Glimbur]

Candysmith PEACH!

Easiest entry is as a homebrew class. Ok. Entry after level 5, max out two skills (bluff is cross-class) and 5 ranks into a flavor skill. Haha, flavor. Except... the class doesn't seem to give Craft homunculus, and Craft Construct is very difficult to get at level 5. So easiest entry is Artificer 4/Warcrafter 3ish. Probably not as intended.

Skill list looks like Artificer. Disable Device and Open Lock don't seem very Wonka. Martial Lore doesn't fit my view of Wonka but this is an initiator so it's necessary. Not a big deal.

Maneuvers are maneuvers.

Chocolatecraft skill bonus should probably be typed. Competence?

Tighten up the language on Oompa Loompa, at present it reads as though you cannot replace fallen Oompas which is probably not as intended. Try "At first level you may have one Oompa Loompa in your service, you may have an additional Oompa Loompa in your service at the same time for every odd-numbered level afterward (so you get 2 at 3rd level, 3 at 5th level, and so on).

Inventing Room is ok. Half progression of craft reserve hurts but is survivable.

Whangdoodle is ok. It pretty much takes an action in combat because it's such a short-term buff, and +2*ML str should be fine balance-wise.

Loompasong is not as good as an equivalent-level bard, which is probably for the best.

Hornswoggler is good. Really good. Maybe it should be a swift action.

Everything is Eatable is workable. I'd find a way to explain it without referencing Dispel Magic, or make clear that you don't have a cap of +10 to your dispel check like Dispel Magic does.

Slugworth is niche but powerful. I think you forgot to specify the DC of the initator level check; I'd assume 11+IL of the Candysmith.

Improved Loomapsong: how does Suggestion work without Fascinate?

Snozzwanger is a very big bonus. +8-10 to hit is a large bonus.

Vermicious Knid is ok.

Candyman Can is too vague. The note about the substance being chocolate makes it much more confusing; can I have a lava field around me or is it a (less damaging) chocolate field? If I make a stone wall and they fail the will save, does it take damage like chocolate or like stone?

The class abilities don't seem very chocolatier, or very Wonka. Yes, they're named after critters that Wonka talked about, but the effects are rather arbitrary and Willy (or Charlie) wouldn't imitate the Vermicious Knid. The maneuvers are much more on-theme. It's hard to make too much stuff that all hangs together, but I'm going to endorse a drastic re-write of the class. Sorry. To me, Wonka is about being mysterious, having a plan, seeing to the heart of people, letting them make their own mistakes, and other social skills/tricks/abilities/etc. Hope this helps!

[sirpercival]

Candysmith PEACH!

Sweet, thanks!

Easiest entry is as a homebrew class. Ok. Entry after level 5, max out two skills (bluff is cross-class) and 5 ranks into a flavor skill. Haha, flavor. Except... the class doesn't seem to give Craft homunculus, and Craft Construct is very difficult to get at level 5. So easiest entry is Artificer 4/Warcrafter 3ish. Probably not as intended.

Actually Warcrafter 6 is the easiest entry (you get CMA&A at 6, can pick up Craft Construct as your L6 feat). Also, the "flavor skill" is used a lot in Glass Elevator, so it's not as flavory as all that...

Skill list looks like Artificer. Disable Device and Open Lock don't seem very Wonka. Martial Lore doesn't fit my view of Wonka but this is an initiator so it's necessary. Not a big deal.

Warcrafter skill list, those two were included to keep consistent.

Maneuvers are maneuvers.

Chocolatecraft skill bonus should probably be typed. Competence?

Damn, why do I keep forgetting to make my bonuses typed? Lol. Competence runs into issues with stacking with, forex, items... but I think you may be right about it making the most sense. I'll fix.

Tighten up the language on Oompa Loompa, at present it reads as though you cannot replace fallen Oompas which is probably not as intended. Try "At first level you may have one Oompa Loompa in your service, you may have an additional Oompa Loompa in your service at the same time for every odd-numbered level afterward (so you get 2 at 3rd level, 3 at 5th level, and so on).

Ah, excellent, thank you.

Inventing Room is ok. Half progression of craft reserve hurts but is survivable.

Whangdoodle is ok. It pretty much takes an action in combat because it's such a short-term buff, and +2*ML str should be fine balance-wise.

Loompasong is not as good as an equivalent-level bard, which is probably for the best.

Hornswoggler is good. Really good. Maybe it should be a swift action.

Hm. Possibly, I shall cogitate.

Everything is Eatable is workable. I'd find a way to explain it without referencing Dispel Magic, or make clear that you don't have a cap of +10 to your dispel check like Dispel Magic does.

Yeah, I struggled with the wording for this one, I'll see if I can tighten it up.

Slugworth is niche but powerful. I think you forgot to specify the DC of the initator level check; I'd assume 11+IL of the Candysmith.

Improved Loomapsong: how does Suggestion work without Fascinate?

Welp. I forgot to add Fascinate to the Loompasong list, so there we go. In other news, has anyone else noticed how hard it is to type fascinate correctly the first time?

Snozzwanger is a very big bonus. +8-10 to hit is a large bonus.

OK, I'll halve the bonus. Copacetic?

Vermicious Knid is ok.

Candyman Can is too vague. The note about the substance being chocolate makes it much more confusing; can I have a lava field around me or is it a (less damaging) chocolate field? If I make a stone wall and they fail the will save, does it take damage like chocolate or like stone?

OK, I'll take another look at wording -- this is another one I struggled with.

The class abilities don't seem very chocolatier, or very Wonka. Yes, they're named after critters that Wonka talked about, but the effects are rather arbitrary and Willy (or Charlie) wouldn't imitate the Vermicious Knid. The maneuvers are much more on-theme. It's hard to make too much stuff that all hangs together, but I'm going to endorse a drastic re-write of the class. Sorry. To me, Wonka is about being mysterious, having a plan, seeing to the heart of people, letting them make their own mistakes, and other social skills/tricks/abilities/etc. Hope this helps!

Yeah... I ran into the problem that most of the candy-related stuff I came up with went into Glass Elevator, and I didn't have as much left to reference in the class itself. I may scrap the monster-related ones for things like Wonkavite & Vitawonk, if I have time to do so before the closing.

[Tragak]

When does the voting thread come up?

[ErrantX]

Gonna try to get a voting thread up tomorrow. Tired now. Sleep now.

-X

[malonkey1]

Wait, as in 5/14 tomorrow, or 5/13 "I forgot it was past midnight" tomorrow?

[sirpercival]

I guess we'll find out when he posts it

[ErrantX]

Voting Thread is Up!

New contest in a little while, but I want to give you a hint to get guessing on / starting formulating ideas on. "Duct Tape"

-X

[malonkey1]

...Macguyver? Maybe Mythbusters?

[Ra_Va]

Redneck versions of Frankenstein?

[ErrantX]

The winner and Errant's Pick of PrC Contest XL: Based on a Best Seller is... Mephibosheth and his Vessel of the Ancient Gods! Congrats, Meph!


Alright, the answer to the mystery of duct tape is...

Contest XLI: Hybrid Theory IV!


We usually get a lot of good entries from these ones, so I'm looking forward to seeing what people come up with.

-X

[sirpercival]

Haha, this is more than half of the PrCs that I write! Would it be wrong to do one of the prcs that's already on my to-do list?? Hm.... ;)

[malonkey1]

Wow, glad I placed in this! I didn't expect to get as many votes as I did!

[Kazyan]

So, one of the classes I want to use is apparently very common for Hybrid Theory, and the other hasn't been used before.

Sure, let's do this!

[malonkey1]

I Wonder how frequently Warlocks get used in these...

[Kazyan]

Frequently. I wasn't counting, but there were a bunch when I went through the old Hybrid Theories. And, er, I'm doing a Warlock/Scout when I get to my home computer.

[sirpercival]

I have lots of homebrew base classes... I'm probably going to use one or two of them.

Hey ErrantX, is Astronomer ok to hybridize with?

[ErrantX]

I have lots of homebrew base classes... I'm probably going to use one or two of them.

Hey ErrantX, is Astronomer ok to hybridize with?

Sure, sure to link relevant things. I am fine with it.

-X

[Amechra]

Alright, I take it another Warlock entry is acceptable from me?

I haven't lost a single competition where I entered a Warlock theurge... however, that was before a bunch of the recent "big boys" joined, so we shall see.

(My Warlocks bring all the boys to the yard.)

[malonkey1]

Fine, well I'm doing Warlock/Martial Adept.

[sirpercival]

I'm probably doing an Astronomer/Binder hybrid. Assuming I have time to enter at all...

[Kazyan]

Warlock party! Bring your own eldritch!

[necroon]

Found where all the cool kids hang out!
I'm going to throw my hat in the ring with a Wizard / Monk prestige class (As long as there are no objections, of course )