[BitP:R OOC thread] Bleach Style Ultimate Technique#17: Big words cause more pain!

[tgva8889]

I figure that if it were available, Ulquiorra would have, you know, used it to fight Ichigo at some point before using Segunda Etapa.

[Draken]

Probabilities:

1: He didn't have it. It is noteworthy that I am not Tite Kubo and I am not in contact with him. So in all likelyhood, this is it.
2: His fundamental was subtle. Given that nihilism is an emotional state, his fundamental could very well be an emotional effect.

A fundamental doesn't need to always be a battle-worthy effect either (by itself anyway). Von Geister's living blight is not dangerous for instance, its default state is even perfectly edible (but tastes horrible). But it perfectly provides the organic material his brand of necromancia manipulates.

[Frozen_Feet]

Ulquiorra's Aspect is Despair. If there's nothing about his eye-crushing that depicts or represents despair, then yes its not Necromancia.

Ulquiorra's aspect is Nihilism. How does that relate to eye crushing? I'll just quote the man himself:

"The things reflected in my eyes have no meaning. Things that could not reflected in my eyes, do not exist."

[tgva8889]

Okay, fine. So can we all agree that Yammy doesn't have a Fundamental Necromancia, and therefore that Gonzui cannot possibly be a Necromancia spell?

[Frozen_Feet]

Didn't Yammy have that rage-inducing aura? That would've counted as Resurreccion.

However, Gonzui is totally unrelated to that, and is just a way to devour souls en masse. When I wrote Elder, I had the premise that it would be an ability any really high-level Hollow would posses.

[tgva8889]

Since only Yammy used it, we don't really know. For the purposes of my understanding, I'm assuming it is a Yammy-only ability for discussion purposes.

Also, Yammy doesn't have a rage-inducing anything. He's just angry a lot and when he gets angry he can also get bigger. People who fight him don't get angrier or anything, or even show any signs of being anything different than what they normally are in a fight.

[Nicklance]

Ulquiorra's aspect is Nihilism. How does that relate to eye crushing? I'll just quote the man himself:

"The things reflected in my eyes have no meaning. Things that could not reflected in my eyes, do not exist."

My bad. It could be a Necromancia spell then. Emphasis on could.

Basically, in my opinion, I'd rather not take existing material and try to peg it into Necromancia. I'd instead come up with a spell or two, using the restrictions I've mentioned earlier and declare "These are Necromancia spells."

[tgva8889]

I'm trying to understand what the difference is between Necromancia and each Arrancar's unique set of powers that only they seem to have. Since every Arrancar is different and has a different set of basic abilities, from Time Distortion to shooting different kinds of energy blasts to crushing your eye and making other people see what you've seen. Apparently, not all of those abilities are Necromancia, just some. I'm just trying to figure out why Necromancia is so different, so I'm using examples since the description of Necromancia hasn't convinced me there's a significant difference yet.

[Nicklance]

I'm trying to understand what the difference is between Necromancia and each Arrancar's unique set of powers that only they seem to have. Since every Arrancar is different and has a different set of basic abilities, from Time Distortion to shooting different kinds of energy blasts to crushing your eye and making other people see what you've seen. Apparently, not all of those abilities are Necromancia, just some. I'm just trying to figure out why Necromancia is so different, so I'm using examples since the description of Necromancia hasn't convinced me there's a significant difference yet.

I understand that you're trying and I am in no uncertain terms expressing frustration or inability to understand your attempt to understand the topic at hand.

I apologize if my small opinions only serve to hamper you more than assist you.

[tgva8889]

Sorry to upset you. Maybe there's an in-game example that works better, but I don't know enough about the Arrancar in the game to make such an example.

[Nicklance]

Sorry to upset you. Maybe there's an in-game example that works better, but I don't know enough about the Arrancar in the game to make such an example.

I'm not upset

Ok to use Cuerva as an example.

Her Hambre Cero is a Cero that represents Cuerva's Aspect. Because in canon, no Cero have different abilities apart from destroying things, and the only difference in where each user casts the Cero from, this is Necromancia that modifies the Hollow's ordinary Cero ability.

Deglucion Garganta is again a Garganta ability taken further than possible. And since there are no precedents to different Garganta functions apart from travelling. Cuerva's unique Garganta is most definitely Necromancia, because it also embodies her Aspect of Starvation by serving as an extra-dimensional eating organ.

Cuerva's outer layer of Hierro, the shadowy black reiatsu-dress and the shadowy aura that absorbs energy and kinetic impact from hits is an expression of her Starvation, as well as her theme of shadows. This is a Necromancia spell that adds on to her Hierro ability.

In Resurrection, the upgraded Gran Hambre Cero and Garganta are again higher grades of the existing abilities, and are thus higher grades of Necromancia.

Cuerva's Rain of Feathers is a Resurrecion-Grade Necromancia ability, based on Cuerva's Avian theme combined with Shadow theme. (And again, because this has little in connection with her Aspect, this can be a severely depowered Necromancia, or not Necromancia at all)

Fleeing the Dark Flight is in the same position as Rain of Feathers.

So pretty much this means that Cuerva's natural Arrancar abilities are her natural weapons, her flight ability and whatever Arrancar come with.

The only two abilities in pending status (which can be fixed with a rewrite) are her Rain of Feathers and Fleeing the Dark Flight, both can be argued to be her natural Arrancar abilities, and not Necromancia.

Cero Obscuras is also in status pending, since Cero are only named differently according to their grade of destruction ability, and Cuerva's is a body-aura flying tackle attack. Could this be a natural Vasto Lorde-based Arrancar ability or a Necromancia that mimics and modifies an existing ability? After a rewrite it can be cleared up too.

[Draken]

Not every cannon unique ability is actually unique to that arrancar. It is simply something that other characters didn't feel like using. Gonzui, for instance, only ever had one situation where it could actually be used, and it is mostly a bastard-ish move, since the souls with no spiritual power don't even taste that good anyway.

[Frozen_Feet]

Basically, in my opinion, I'd rather not take existing material and try to peg it into Necromancia. I'd instead come up with a spell or two, using the restrictions I've mentioned earlier and declare "These are Necromancia spells."

I suppose that's wise, especially since the concept is not something that really exists in Canon. The reason I brought up few abilities of my own characters was because they were based on the same idea, being direct manifestations of their Aspects of Death.

I'm trying to understand what the difference is between Necromancia and each Arrancar's unique set of powers that only they seem to have.

Again, think of Zanjutsu. Zanpakutos have differing Spirits and abilities, but there are still general paradigms of weapon use that are taught in an academy. A Shikai might bear no resemblance to a sword, but basics of Zanjutsu are still the foundation of using that weapon.

On Hollow side, Arrancars have different forms and Aspects, but there are still general paradigms and steps they can take to develop Necromancia from those. Unique abilities that don't fit the mold are outliers, or basis for Necromancia.

[Nicklance]

Yeah...

I guess how you write your Arrancar's abilities makes the biggest difference whether they are Necromancia or natural abilities.

Perhaps this is why when Draken introduced the Necromancia concept it clicked so easily with me. Because when I wrote Cuerva, I wrote many of her abilities to be different from canon representations as far as possible.

But yeah, hopefully the earlier post I used Cuerva as the example can help tgva8889 understand better on what can or might not be Necromancia.

[Frozen_Feet]

Not every cannon unique ability is actually unique to that arrancar. It is simply something that other characters didn't feel like using. Gonzui, for instance, only ever had one situation where it could actually be used, and it is mostly a bastard-ish move, since the souls with no spiritual power don't even taste that good anyway.

To list examples, Gran Rey Cero, Cero Oscuras and Caja Negacion were all implied to be ubiquitous to Espada. First two were only used by single characters in the main plot line, and the last was only used once.

Aaroniero also alluded to a lot of Hollows being averse to sunlight, but is the sole example case in the story.

[tgva8889]

So Kayi's Cero Absoluto from the previous game, which was a super-cold Cero, would be Necromancia because it is a variation on Cero that only she has? But the Gran Rey Cero, a Cero that is just infused with a Hollow's blood, is not Necromancia because anyone (in theory) could use it. So is Necromancia just powers unique to a specific Hollow because it deals with their Aspect of Death? Is it impossible for another Hollow to replicate such an ability?

So how is Necromancia different from the abilities unique to individual Hollows that have always existed? It seems like it is just the naming of something that has always existed so far, since every example I've seen has been a "Yes, that's Necromancia" example.

(Just ignore Gonzui. I was just pretending that it was a Yammy-only technique. I know we don't know that for certain.)

[Nicklance]

So Kayi's Cero Absoluto from the previous game, which was a super-cold Cero, would be Necromancia because it is a variation on Cero that only she has? But the Gran Rey Cero, a Cero that is just infused with a Hollow's blood, is not Necromancia because anyone (in theory) could use it. So is Necromancia just powers unique to a specific Hollow because it deals with their Aspect of Death? Is it impossible for another Hollow to replicate such an ability?

So how is Necromancia different from the abilities unique to individual Hollows that have always existed? It seems like it is just the naming of something that has always existed so far, since every example I've seen has been a "Yes, that's Necromancia" example.

(Just ignore Gonzui. I was just pretending that it was a Yammy-only technique. I know we don't know that for certain.)

I believe that because in canon nobody uses Cero differently apart from just energy blasting. Anything unique from a Cero is Necromancia and not just a unique Hollow ability because its the clearest 'deviation from canon' ability that we have. Which Necromancia will move in to cover that.

Argh, I'm not helping you much aren't I?

[Draken]

No, cero and its variants are, by default, not necromancia. Cero is a basic menos ability and cero variants are specific hollow special abilities.

Do recall that cold (from a thermal standpoint anyway) is an absense of energy, so a necromancia that made a ray of ice would be draining the heat out of the air in a straight line, not projecting a blast of "cold energy".

[tgva8889]

Except it wasn't a "ray of cold" it was a Cero that froze things. Also, whatever, we're talking about physics in a world where people can shoot beams of destruction from their hands.

In any case, no version of Cero is Necromancia? Okay then. So, (unfortunately I have to use this example) would something like Nel's healing drool be Necromancia?

[Draken]

Except it wasn't a "ray of cold" it was a Cero that froze things. Also, whatever, we're talking about physics in a world where people can shoot beams of destruction from their hands.

In any case, no version of Cero is Necromancia? Okay then. So, (unfortunately I have to use this example) would something like Nel's healing drool be Necromancia?

I am a negation at physics, but I just like cold being the lack of energy for aesthetic purposes.

As for droll. Uh.

That is a good question. By the way it is supposed to go, it would be, indeed a necromantic spell. One with a very gross somatic component (reach in, reach in... Barf).

The thing to note is that there are a lot of gray areas. Something doesn't need to be necromancia, the concept of spells simply gives greater freedom in the design of special attacks and abilities mostly unrelated to the character's release state, similarly to kido.

[Frozen_Feet]

So is Necromancia just powers unique to a specific Hollow because it deals with their Aspect of Death? Is it impossible for another Hollow to replicate such an ability?

Aspects of Death themselves are not unique, so...

So how is Necromancia different from the abilities unique to individual Hollows that have always existed? It seems like it is just the naming of something that has always existed so far, since every example I've seen has been a "Yes, that's Necromancia" example.

Because they haven't always existed for that Hollow. The important line of division for Necromancia and inherent abilities is that Necromancia is not instinctive.

To give an example, Elder being able to resurrect other Hollows is not something she's always been able to do - it's an acquired trait.

Incidentally, while Gran Rey Cero might not count as Necromancia, it has shades of the same principle, since it must be learned. Gran Rey Cero is specific to Espada, but Espada is a nomination, not something inherent to your being. (How you learn to do that has not been explained, and even I forgot to use my chance with Lalita to do that.)

Really, my most pressing question right now is: would Segunda Etapa count as the pinnacle of Necromancia, like Bankai is the pinnacle of Zanjutsu? Because I feel that would make the most sense, seeing that Segunda Etapa too is an acquired trait.

[tgva8889]

So Necromancia is something specific to a Hollow's particular essence (their Aspect) but not something that's just inherently part of their abilities. But if they expand upon something that is inherently part of their abilities, does that make it Necromancia or no? For example, if a basic Hollow ate enough Hollows and souls and such that it gained intelligence and then manifested the ability to make creatures around it constantly fearful, would that be Necromancia? What if it manifested the ability to grow another arm?

I mean, nothing is technically inherent about a Hollow's abilities, since every Hollow starts off as a creature that only wants to eat other souls to survive. No Hollow begins life as an Adjuchas, for example. Like, manual dexterity hasn't always existed for me, it's something acquired through constant use of my hands.

A Hollow could always acquire new abilities. I don't see any reason why in our world that isn't the case. But all such abilities wouldn't necessarily be Necromancia, would they?

[Draken]

So Necromancia is something specific to a Hollow's particular essence (their Aspect) but not something that's just inherently part of their abilities. But if they expand upon something that is inherently part of their abilities, does that make it Necromancia or no? For example, if a basic Hollow ate enough Hollows and souls and such that it gained intelligence and then manifested the ability to make creatures around it constantly fearful, would that be Necromancia? What if it manifested the ability to grow another arm?

I mean, nothing is technically inherent about a Hollow's abilities, since every Hollow starts off as a creature that only wants to eat other souls to survive. No Hollow begins life as an Adjuchas, for example. Like, manual dexterity hasn't always existed for me, it's something acquired through constant use of my hands.

A Hollow could always acquire new abilities. I don't see any reason why in our world that isn't the case. But all such abilities wouldn't necessarily be Necromancia, would they?

There is a mix of negatives and positives in the bolded sentence that makes me believe you are just trolling us here.

Anyway. To make your example perfectly clear, while I have not yet written it down, the baseline ability for Von Geister's resurreccion is Protean Flesh, the ability to shapeshift almost freely.

That is not necromancia. It is his Segunda Etapa.

And that is it. The split is a very, very gray area. There is no real default way to say "this is necromancia, that is not". As a rule, actually, necromancia is primarily a means of lateral empowerment for a hollow who has reached the pinnacle of his vertical growth. A hollow that is still growing can get more arms or more legs or more heads or more bodies or whatever as a function of his power, and the shape that power takes, still being in development. But he has no actual control of those (you, the player do, but the character doesn't). A necromancer has control of what spells he is developing. He can chose wether he will work next towards an effect that shapes a wall of ice where he wants a wall of ice to appear or wheter he will work out a spell that causes hail the size of bowling balls to fall around him.

[tgva8889]

Okay. So Necromancia is a subset of Hollow abilities that deals with a Hollow's Aspect of Death and the manifestation thereof. More or less correct? Not a definition, but a description of it.

(Honestly, as an aside, I have always thought that a Hollow could not gain power once it had sealed its power away, because it no longer had access to it. Clearly that is not the case in this game, but it was always a curiosity to me that Arrancar have the ability to increase their power so much.)

[Draken]

Okay. So Necromancia is a subset of Hollow abilities that deals with a Hollow's Aspect of Death and the manifestation thereof. More or less correct? Not a definition, but a description of it.

(Honestly, as an aside, I have always thought that a Hollow could not gain power once it had sealed its power away, because it no longer had access to it. Clearly that is not the case in this game, but it was always a curiosity to me that Arrancar have the ability to increase their power so much.)

Don't forget that our characters are natural arrancar, not artificial arrancar made with the use of the Hougyoku. The transformation is not so much a monumental power boost as it is the utility and safety of not having to worry about regressing to a mindless gillian state and a smaller wasting of reiryoku making "feeding" a less pressing issue.

[tgva8889]

Well, since "natural Arrancar" are sort of a creation of our game, at least as far as Kubo's work has said, we can really say whatever we want about Arrancar in our game.

My belief about Arrancar had nothing to do with power level or anything, just from my understanding of what it meant to "seal" their power away in a sword.

[Draken]

Well, since "natural Arrancar" are sort of a creation of our game, at least as far as Kubo's work has said, we can really say whatever we want about Arrancar in our game.

My belief about Arrancar had nothing to do with power level or anything, just from my understanding of what it meant to "seal" their power away in a sword.

Actually, natural arrancar are a concept from canon bleach. They were hinted at back at the beggining of the Hueco Mundo Arc, when the arrancar first appeared and a few shoed up afterwards, mainly anime filler.

I do believe it was said at least once that the three Privaron were Natural Arrancar.

[Frozen_Feet]

Actually, it's not certain some Arrancar were created with the Hogyuku - most notably Starkk and Ulquiorra.

I'll focus on the latter, as I just linked to his backstory. Ulquiorra loses his mask when plunging himself into a hedge. He at least was a natural Arrancar. It's possible he was further improved by Aizen, but we didn't get to see it.

Ulquiorra is also the only Espada to reach Segunda Etapa... and notably, he claims it's through training. He tells that unlike his peers, he didn't sacrifice any of his defensice power (namely, his regeneration) for offense. Yet, we see him cause an explosion comparable to a tactical nuke, and utterly trouncing Ichigo, a Vizard with both Mask and Bankai, in his base Resurreccion.

Also, one of the biggest things in going from Hollow to Arrancar is not necessarily power... but ability to reason. That's, at least what Neliel said. Nnoitra sorta disagreed...

[tgva8889]

Right, but I was always under the impression that once a power was sealed, it couldn't be increased. There was a limit to the power an Arrancar could achieve, because the power was sealed. The Arrancar were "stronger" than normal Hollows in the same way that Ichigo's Bankai made him more powerful: they condensed their power into a smaller area. So, a power could be expanded, perhaps allowing more of it to be "released" at a certain time, but it couldn't actually be increased. You could attain better skill, use what you had better, but you could never actually officially get more power. I don't think it really matters at this point, but I was always under the impression that everyone had a basic limit of their power, and there are some people who would never, for example, have Segunda Etapa because they just couldn't get there.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's hard to say if there ever was a glass ceiling like that, since it seems like the concept is proven false during the story. During the fight in Karakura town, Aizen casts all conceptions of how Vizards and Arrancars work into doubt by revealing, among other things, that the former shouldn't be possible at all, only made real by Hogyoku's reality-altering power. Yet Ichigo was not created by it, and seems to be a Vizard for different reasons alltogether.

The nature of Arrancars is also made questionable by Starkk's and Ulquiorra's pasts - seems like you didn't need the Hogyoku at all to make awesomely powerful Hollow - Shinigami hybrids. And one of them still loses to pure-blooded reaper.

In the end, Yamamoto still probably is more powerful than anyone else.