General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[ToySoldierCPlus]

My point is that both are valid game concepts and both have the potential to be dark. A dark game is created in the details more than in the overarching idea.

Fair enough. Both would be Changeling games, and both would earn the subtitle the Lost, though in opposite ways.

On a different topic, what do you guys think the odds of an ordinary human being able to fend off a gangrel vampire are? I wanted to use that as the reason the character got embraced, because he was able to defend himself when the vampire tried to feed on him.

[TheCountAlucard]

On a different topic, what do you guys think the odds of an ordinary human being able to fend off a gangrel vampire are? I wanted to use that as the reason the character got embraced, because he was able to defend himself when the vampire tried to feed on him.

Would be heavily-dependent on both of their loadouts. A Gangrel who hasn't invested in Protean enough to pop claws doesn't have any inherent booster to physical combat rolls, save for the one-turn +2 bonus any vampire can give himself by spending a point of Vitae.

Resilience is a handy Discipline, but it doesn't make you harder to fend off, so again, it all falls down to how they were built.

[comicshorse]

As the Count says Gangrel Disciplines won't be much help. Particularly if the Gangrel is merely trying to feed and might consider popping claws as being to lethal a tactic when he merely wants to subdue.
First session of V:TR I ever played my Gangrel when out hunting was cornered by two muggers. The G.M. explained what my disciplines could do and what pumping blood did. I considered how the fight would go for me and then ran like hell !

Also you don't have to win, putting up a suitably gutsy fight might be enough to earn your Sire's respect

[Morty]

If a human doesn't know he's up against a vampire, his chances are lower, obviously. I wouldn't put much money on the human in such a fight if it was to the death, but a tough and resourceful one might be able to fend off the vampire.

[Fouredged Sword]

If the human has fire then the rules of the fight change.

People think. Vampires also think. It is the best weapon ever created. A vampire can have that taken from them. Even if a molotove coctail misses a vampire he is likely going to high tail it. Once they are running, they are prey rather than hunter.

Humans are not as weak in the short term as you would think in WOD. The big issue is that every bit of damage takes days to heal.

Even a human not set up for vampires, but set up for combat can be a problem. A nice 10ga shotgun will do enough bashing damage to drop a vampire on it's back and stack on the wound penelties. Once you are takeing -3 on all actions you are at a severe disadvantage. Nice body armor makes damage less of a threat. It can get really harry for a vampire very quickly if they pick a fight with someone ready to fight them.

[Wings of Peace]

Anyone have experience with making combat oriented Fate mages? I have a friend who wants to make an absurdly lucky character and while he seems to have the rp side of his magic down he's not sure how to go for combat.

My first thought is a generic Fate/Mind Acanthus gunmage who uses Fate for dice boosters and Mind + Uncrowned King to boost his mental stats for the fire arm specialization merit (unsure if that's the proper name) with maybe a dot in time for Perfect Timing. Am I on the right track with this?

[Shadowknight12]

Anyone have experience with making combat oriented Fate mages? I have a friend who wants to make an absurdly lucky character and while he seems to have the rp side of his magic down he's not sure how to go for combat.

My first thought is a generic Fate/Mind Acanthus gunmage who uses Fate for dice boosters and Mind + Uncrowned King to boost his mental stats for the fire arm specialization merit (unsure if that's the proper name) with maybe a dot in time for Perfect Timing. Am I on the right track with this?

That's a rather poor reason to go with Mind. Go with Time instead, but max out Fate. You use it to give yourself bonus dice on absolutely everything. Then use Time for utility and its (pretty powerful) combat benefits at higher dots.

You could get Prime to enchant guns and give yourself even more bonuses, but like Mind, it feels like a poor reason to take it. Better focus on Fate and Time, which as an Acanthus he'll get more mileage out of.

[Wings of Peace]

That's a rather poor reason to go with Mind. Go with Time instead, but max out Fate. You use it to give yourself bonus dice on absolutely everything. Then use Time for utility and its (pretty powerful) combat benefits at higher dots.

You could get Prime to enchant guns and give yourself even more bonuses, but like Mind, it feels like a poor reason to take it. Better focus on Fate and Time, which as an Acanthus he'll get more mileage out of.

Prime/Fate as primary focus arcanums with a minor in Time wouldn't be bad actually. He could take the Reality Maker legacy and go for the lovable rogue approach.

[Shadowknight12]

Prime/Fate as primary focus arcanums with a minor in Time wouldn't be bad actually. He could take the Reality Maker legacy and go for the lovable rogue approach.

Yes, that sounds about right. Normally, that approach would be too limiting, but Fate lets him brute-force his way through everything and Prime takes care of anything that can pose a real threat to him (i.e., another mage). Time is there for gravy.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Would be heavily-dependent on both of their loadouts. A Gangrel who hasn't invested in Protean enough to pop claws doesn't have any inherent booster to physical combat rolls, save for the one-turn +2 bonus any vampire can give himself by spending a point of Vitae.

Resilience is a handy Discipline, but it doesn't make you harder to fend off, so again, it all falls down to how they were built.

The thing spent two nights stalking him as a wolf, the first night of which cured his writer's block, but obviously not his insomnia. The second night it actually attacked him, but he was able to hold his own, mostly by being able to stop it from biting him after it had him pinned. So yes, it had the dots in Protean to murder him easily. I'm thinking it was probably low on Vitae, which is why it didn't pop claws outright. though how that would affect its ability to embrace a new childe I'm not entirely clear on.

As the Count says Gangrel Disciplines won't be much help. Particularly if the Gangrel is merely trying to feed and might consider popping claws as being to lethal a tactic when he merely wants to subdue.
First session of V:TR I ever played my Gangrel when out hunting was cornered by two muggers. The G.M. explained what my disciplines could do and what pumping blood did. I considered how the fight would go for me and then ran like hell !

Also you don't have to win, putting up a suitably gutsy fight might be enough to earn your Sire's respect

That's the theory. When the vamp attacked him, it was in wolf form, and he was able to sidestep its initial charge and get in a decent hit with the axe he had been using to chop wood. Not that the hit did much, given that it was only bashing damage, but still. The sire was able to remove the axe as an issue, and then managed to pin him. He was able to stop it from biting him and roll out of the pin, at which point he got up and tried to go for his axe. The vamp got there first, and then transformed back into its humanoid form, having decided that this guy would be more useful as a childe than a simple meal.

If a human doesn't know he's up against a vampire, his chances are lower, obviously. I wouldn't put much money on the human in such a fight if it was to the death, but a tough and resourceful one might be able to fend off the vampire.

Reclusive horror author living alone in a cabin in rural Maine. Decently well-trained (2 dots apiece) in Weapons, Firearms and Brawl. Not to mention general survivalist training, because the nearest town is 40 minutes away by car.

Tough and resourceful, yes. Aware that he's being stalked by a vampire? Not so much. Aware that he's being stalked by something unnatural? Decently so.

If the human has fire then the rules of the fight change.

People think. Vampires also think. It is the best weapon ever created. A vampire can have that taken from them. Even if a molotove coctail misses a vampire he is likely going to high tail it. Once they are running, they are prey rather than hunter.

Humans are not as weak in the short term as you would think in WOD. The big issue is that every bit of damage takes days to heal.

Even a human not set up for vampires, but set up for combat can be a problem. A nice 10ga shotgun will do enough bashing damage to drop a vampire on it's back and stack on the wound penelties. Once you are takeing -3 on all actions you are at a severe disadvantage. Nice body armor makes damage less of a threat. It can get really harry for a vampire very quickly if they pick a fight with someone ready to fight them.

No shotgun, just an axe. also no fire, just a flashlight. But then, he just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and draw a vampire's attention. Then he proved to be a bit tougher to drink than expected.

[TheCountAlucard]

...and he was able to sidestep its initial charge and get in a decent hit with the axe he had been using to chop wood. Not that the hit did much, given that it was only bashing damage, but still.

Axes do lethal damage, sir. Very lethal damage.

[Shadowknight12]

Axes do lethal damage, sir. Very lethal damage.

In his defence, he may have been using it wrong.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

I was under the impression that vampires only took bashing damage from most attacks, except for fire and possibly a few others. I'll have to check again.

EDIT: Huh, look at that. At least I know where I got that idea from. So just guns do bashing, axes still do lethal... Suddenly it seems even more plausible that he could win, or at least survive, especially if the vamp had to spend vitae on healing as well.

[Fouredged Sword]

Vampires take bashing damage from GUNS, and so do most people in nWoD as bulletproof armor makes most guns do bashing damage.

Axes lop of limbs, and a good hit with one will set a vampire on it's tail.

[Shadowknight12]

"Hey, let me axe you a question..."

[ToySoldierCPlus]

"Hey, let me axe you a question..."

"You can ask me anything you like, good sir, but I insist you put the weapon down first."

[Fouredged Sword]

Ax + 2str + 2weaponry + all out attack + willpower + little luck = dead vampire with one hit, expecialy if he forfitited his defence to do an all out attack at you and lost initiative.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Yeah, Vampires really aren't all that tough.

If you want tough, play a Promethean. You don't die or go unconscious until your entire Health track is filled with Aggravated, you get at least one or two free resurrections (you can get another one for 8 xp), and you can heal yourself almost instantly just by cutting a power line and grabbing hold.

Of course, when the village goes all pitchforks and torches, they need that.

Speaking of undead (yes, yes I know) monstrosities, anyone excited for Mummy?

[Morty]

That depends. Was any new info released? I'm a bit skeptical about the idea itself, but it WW manages to make it work...

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Yeah, Vampires really aren't all that tough.

If you want tough, play a Promethean. You don't die or go unconscious until your entire Health track is filled with Aggravated, you get at least one or two free resurrections (you can get another one for 8 xp), and you can heal yourself almost instantly just by cutting a power line and grabbing hold.

Of course, when the village goes all pitchforks and torches, they need that.

Speaking of undead (yes, yes I know) monstrosities, anyone excited for Mummy?

Or Geist. Sin-Eaters can burn plasm to soak damage, and they always come back when they die, unless the body is too badly mutilated to be restored. Of course, you lose control of the body and your geist takes over after 5 of those, but hey, what are the odds of 5 deaths, right?

As for Mummy, I don't know. I think we went over that a while back, and I recall the big question being, "What's the point?" You're already immortal, so what are you going to be doing in the game? Protecting artifacts or sacred sites? Fighting eldritch horrors that seek to drag you down into the underworld? I'm with Morty; more info is required before I can say yay or nay.

[TheCountAlucard]

I've gotta ask you guys something - how well does WoD hold up in a large group?

I don't run D&D in huge groups anymore, due to combat taking forever - likewise, Exalted combat with large groups result in angry, hungry players barking at me to wrap things up because it's 4:00 AM; WoD's combat system is simpler, but the system is also far less focused on combat in the first place.

The biggest downside I see is that with nine players, there's suddenly a lot less spotlight time for each PC, which I'll admit looks problematic.

[Fouredged Sword]

Drag is an issue, more so when they decide to split the party into 1-2 man parties to get things done. My parties always split into small groups for some reason, it makes DM more than a handful of players a nightmare.

Combat becomes bloody and quick. With 9 characters don't expect things to survive unless they are unkillable. Defence will drop quickly, and armor pierceing is easy to get. Nothing will save you from a bodkin arrow spam.

[Ichneumon]

I've gotta ask you guys something - how well does WoD hold up in a large group?

I don't run D&D in huge groups anymore, due to combat taking forever - likewise, Exalted combat with large groups result in angry, hungry players barking at me to wrap things up because it's 4:00 AM; WoD's combat system is simpler, but the system is also far less focused on combat in the first place.

The biggest downside I see is that with nine players, there's suddenly a lot less spotlight time for each PC, which I'll admit looks problematic.

On page 174 of the regular WoD core book there is an optional rule for large fights. You might want to look into that.

[TheCountAlucard]

On page 174 of the regular WoD core book there is an optional rule for large fights. You might want to look into that.

What, the rules for Extras? That seems really more for when I want to throw an additional ten dudes onto the battlefield without adding an hour to the fight, not for when there's nine PCs.

Unless you mean, like, leveling the playing field by putting a bunch of extras out there.

With 9 characters don't expect things to survive unless they are unkillable. Defence will drop quickly, and armor pierceing is easy to get.

I have my doubts as to whether all nine of the PCs would be both present and on the same side for a fight at any given time - it only happened once back when my group was four people, and that was me running them through a module.

[Mr.Bookworm]

You might want to check out Mirrors. There are a couple of different ways laid out in there for how to handle combat with a bunch of people and it's an excellent book all-around anyway.

[One Tin Soldier]

I've gotta ask you guys something - how well does WoD hold up in a large group?

I don't run D&D in huge groups anymore, due to combat taking forever - likewise, Exalted combat with large groups result in angry, hungry players barking at me to wrap things up because it's 4:00 AM; WoD's combat system is simpler, but the system is also far less focused on combat in the first place.

The biggest downside I see is that with nine players, there's suddenly a lot less spotlight time for each PC, which I'll admit looks problematic.

Fairly well, actually. I play with a group even larger than that every week, and it works well. Though there are a few adjustments that make it easier.

For a start, much of the time the PCs are split into different factions, or at least don't always go everywhere together. So one group will be off doing their thing while the other group RPs, or just chats OOC. So for example, in a Changeling game a character or two might be off in the Hedge (with the ST) dealing with the goblin market, while the rest of the PCs decide who will be taking the mantle of Autumn King.

On a related note, it helps to have lots of character interaction. If the PCs only ever have meaningful interactions with NPCs, people are simply going to be left out. If there are meaningful things that the PCs have to resolve amongst themselves, then they don't have to wait for the ST's attention to sit in the spotlight, so to speak.

Second, we use a die mechanic variation designed for LARP (Either from Mind's Eye Theater or Mirrors, not sure which), where you roll 1d10 and add your diepool to the result, where the end number determines how many successes you get. The chances of success are about equal to the tabletop version, and it's MUCH cleaner than the fistfulls-of-dice method when everyone needs to roll Wits+Composure at once. It also seems to bring out dramatic failures and exceptional successes with plot-destroying regularity, but it is uncertain whether that's the fault of the dice or it's just our group's luck.

Lastly, with a group that large it is important to plan on not everyone showing up to every session. There is simply no way to plan things out so that everyone's schedules match up. Our solution is to just deal with the ever-fluctuating roster, and try to set things up so that characters aren't left out of the action, or stuck in when their characters aren't there.

But yeah, WoD in a large group can absolutely work.

[Ichneumon]

I've been designing a Vampire chronicle and have come up with a problem, or at least, my perception of the setting has changed when I observed something I had never realised before. This is true for V:tR, but even more so for V:tM, so let's take oWoD as an example.

Let's take an average city of around a 100 Kindred. It's a Chamarilla city, so there will likely be a Prince and a group of Primogen. Even if you take only the classic Chamarilla clans (Ventrue, Toreador, Malkavian, Nosferatu, Tremere, Gangrel and Brujah) that's already 7 clans, meaning that 100 / 7, each clan will only have around, on average, 14 members in the city. Meaning that the clan primogen doen't represent "a people", but more like a small group smaller than a school class.

This is true too for the covenants of Requiem. When a Kindred speaks of "The Carthians of London demand such and such" he really just speaks for a group of maybe 10-20 people or even less, not substantially bigger than a large coterie!

These calculation don't even include the fact that there are a large number of Kindred within the population that aren't part of the Camarilla or that aren't part of a covenant.

Is this normal? For my feeling this all just relativates everything, when all the sects and political organisations aren't much bigger than your average group of friends you meet every friday at the bar.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Wait, why are you assuming a 100 Kindred? A city of millions like London (an old city in particular) should have thousands of Kindred, probably somewhere in the five digits depending on how much you're incorporating other supernaturals into Vampire. I mean, assuming 10,000 Kindred in London, that's a little over a tenth of a percent. Barely a drop in the water. And that's a couple thousand each in each faction.

A (much) smaller city likely doesn't have the full complement of clans and factions, and there are probably a couple that have risen to the top and stayed there.

[Chambers]

Here's some numbers.

In most small cities, the proportion of undead to mortals tends to be relatively low: One vampire per 100,000 or more mortals is not uncommon. In large cities, the ratio is usually nearer one vampire per 50,000 mortals. In some cities that seem to the draw the Kindred for whatever reason - cities such as New York, London, New Orleans, and Chicago - the ratio can be substantially higher.

[Ichneumon]

Really that much?

1 Kindred per 50.000 still amounts to just around 140 Kindred, if it's a city with 7-8 million people (like London).

10.000 Kindred would get the numbers a bit better.