General WoD Discussion #1: Assemble

[ToySoldierCPlus]

The system presents this option for every splat.

Presents, yes, but it only really encourages it for vampires. Uratha are encouraged to get their Harmony as high as possible to aid in dealing with spirits and gaining Renown, Sin-Eaters get bonuses for dealing with the Underworld and ghosts, and possibly on Manifestations and Ceremonies, but I think I'm misremembering something. Mages get social bonuses for high Wisdom when dealing other mages, and penalties for low Wisdom, I'm not sure what happens to Changelings with low Clarity, though I know they turn into True Fae if their Clarity hits 0 and their Wyrd hits 10. Promethans need high Humanity to reach the new dawn, but vampires... The book says, point blank, that most vampires will enter a downward slide on the Humanity scale to a level of 4-5, where they will usually level off. It goes on to say that maintaining a high Humanity is very difficult for vampires, especially as they grow in power. The book offers you the opportunity to drop your Humanity to 5 with no risk of derangements, and you get 10 EXP for your trouble. That's what I call encouragement.

[TheCountAlucard]

Presents, yes, but it only really encourages it for vampires.

Long story short? I disagree.

I'm not sure what happens to Changelings with low Clarity, though I know they turn into True Fae if their Clarity hits 0 and their Wyrd hits 10.

Every two poitns they are below Clarity 7, they suffer a -1 penalty on Perception rolls. When they hit Clarity 0, they prance off into Faerie as expediently as possible, and are never seen again. That, or go catatonic, or a number of other unpleasant things.

Uratha are encouraged to get their Harmony as high as possible to aid in dealing with spirits and gaining Renown, Sin-Eaters get bonuses for dealing with the Underworld and ghosts, and possibly on Manifestations and Ceremonies, but I think I'm misremembering something. Mages get social bonuses for high Wisdom when dealing other mages, and penalties for low Wisdom, Promethans need high Humanity to reach the new dawn, but vampires...

Vampires are social creatures and must interact with humans, and are capped in rolls to do so by their Humanity. Also, any dice pools used during the day are likewise capped by Humanity, and it's also the baseline for how long a character stays in torpor. And forget about reaching Golconda with Humanity 4.

The book says, point blank, that most vampires will enter a downward slide on the Humanity scale to a level of 4-5, where they will usually level off.

That's because their Humanity system penalizes them for killing people, yet they need to risk killing people to stay alive.

Contrariwise, you know what can cause drops in Clarity? Sudden, unexpected life changes - i.e., something that's out of your character's control. Man, considering that I could potentially lose my Morality-equivalent for something I have no say in, the ability to drop 2 Clarity for 10 XP sure sounds like a hot ticket, now doesn't it? You could almost say it encourages it.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Long story short? I disagree.

Fair enough.

Every two poitns they are below Clarity 7, they suffer a -1 penalty on Perception rolls. When they hit Clarity 0, they prance off into Faerie as expediently as possible, and are never seen again. That, or go catatonic, or a number of other unpleasant things.

Plenty of reason to keep it high, then. Very high.

Vampires are social creatures and must interact with humans, and are capped in rolls to do so by their Humanity. Also, any dice pools used during the day are likewise capped by Humanity, and it's also the baseline for how long a character stays in torpor. And forget about reaching Golconda with Humanity 4.

If you're looking to reach Golconda. If you're not, that really makes no difference. Most vampires sleep through the day anyway, and there are disciplines for dealing with humans. I missed the bit about being limited to Humanity in dice in social pools, but even so.

That's because their Humanity system penalizes them for killing people, yet they need to risk killing people to stay alive.

Bingo.

Contrariwise, you know what can cause drops in Clarity? Sudden, unexpected life changes - i.e., something that's out of your character's control. Man, considering that I could potentially lose my Morality-equivalent for something I have no say in, the ability to drop 2 Clarity for 10 XP sure sounds like a hot ticket, now doesn't it? You could almost say it encourages it.

You certainly could. I just can't see changelings wanting to drop Clarity like that. Vampires, on the other hand...

[TheCountAlucard]

Plenty of reason to keep it high, then. Very high.

Ah, but when any of the splats hit 0 in their respective Karma Meter, Bad Stuff Happens. It's not really any different in that regard.

If you're looking to reach Golconda. If you're not, that really makes no difference.

Again, the duration of your torpor is directly determined by your Humanity (and, admittedly, your Blood Potency) - basically, if you're a total jerkwad, expect to be out of the action for years.

Most vampires sleep through the day anyway...

Be that as it may, there are going to be times when one is forced to perform actions during the day - perhaps hunters are after him, or he suspects his ghouls of planning to betray him.

[Selrahc]

So I'm curious. Has much been revealed about the extraterrestrial spirit world? Werewolf has a little on Lunes and a tiny amount on sun spirits, but have they ever been properly dealt with in a splat book?

[Morty]

Another somewhat random question: does anyone know how Paradox was handled in oWoD Mage in terms of people who were neither Mages/Sleepwalkers nor Sleepers? As in, vampires, werewolves or even mortals aware of the supernatural. Such people believe in objective reality, but when they see a person turn a rock into jell-o they don't have that instinctive "that's impossible" reaction ordinary Sleepers have, because they know such things happen.

[TheCountAlucard]

Another somewhat random question: does anyone know how Paradox was handled in oWoD Mage in terms of people who were neither Mages/Sleepwalkers nor Sleepers?

No additional effect, IIRC - basically, doing a spell in the presence of a vampire would be the same as doing a spell while by yourself. If it's vulgar enough to garner Paradox on its own, it garners Paradox, but Kindred won't add to it by being there.

I could be wrong, of course; I wasn't the one playing a Mage in the "oWoD" game.

[WalkingTarget]

No additional effect, IIRC - basically, doing a spell in the presence of a vampire would be the same as doing a spell while by yourself. If it's vulgar enough to garner Paradox on its own, it garners Paradox, but Kindred won't add to it by being there.

This is how my group always handled it - Vamps, Garou, Changelings, etc. did not count as sleepers. Dunno if that's backed up by the rules, but we played several games that mixed the game lines so it was pretty much required as a houserule if nothing else.

[Morty]

Hm, I see. I suppose hunters of both kinds would work the same in that regard. It makes sense, really - the other supernaturals might believe in objective reality, but their perception of reality allows for obvious feats of magic.

[Fox Box Socks]

Presents, yes, but it only really encourages it for vampires. Uratha are encouraged to get their Harmony as high as possible to aid in dealing with spirits and gaining Renown, Sin-Eaters get bonuses for dealing with the Underworld and ghosts, and possibly on Manifestations and Ceremonies, but I think I'm misremembering something. Mages get social bonuses for high Wisdom when dealing other mages, and penalties for low Wisdom, I'm not sure what happens to Changelings with low Clarity, though I know they turn into True Fae if their Clarity hits 0 and their Wyrd hits 10. Promethans need high Humanity to reach the new dawn, but vampires... The book says, point blank, that most vampires will enter a downward slide on the Humanity scale to a level of 4-5, where they will usually level off. It goes on to say that maintaining a high Humanity is very difficult for vampires, especially as they grow in power. The book offers you the opportunity to drop your Humanity to 5 with no risk of derangements, and you get 10 EXP for your trouble. That's what I call encouragement.

You're forgetting a very, very, very important part: Humanity helps determine the length of Torpor. If it's too low, then that Vampire could be out for 50 years or more, practically removing them from play and forcing the person running them to roll up a fresh character.

[Fouredged Sword]

Nah, your friends just got to convince the prince or another high blood potency character to donate some blood to wake you up. You get to wake up quickly, and the powerful vamp gets a level one blood bond from you.

[Morty]

That, and now you have to deal with whatever favors and/or services the elder vampire demanded in exchange for the blood.

[TheCountAlucard]

That, and now you have to deal with whatever favors and/or services the elder vampire demanded in exchange for the blood.

Plus, being blood-bonded kinda sucks.

[Fouredged Sword]

What game of vampire are you NOT indebted to an elder vampire? Avoiding it is an unlikely fate. Best to just go with it and get the best deal you can for your time. Bonus points if you already owe someone and he brings you back just to ensure that you can fill your previous debts. Blood bonds are not fun, but a level one bond does nothing except make you be wary of a second taste.

I am not saying it is ideal, but even topor for a few years is enough to put a serious dent into your game participation. Your friends are likely to seek to wake you early anyway.

[TheCountAlucard]

What game of vampire are you NOT indebted to an elder vampire?

A Carthian game, Belial's Brood...

Your friends are likely to seek to wake you early anyway.

If you're playing the, "Race to Humanity 0" game, no, they aren't - they're likely to seek to diablerize you for Blood Potency or Discipline dots.

On that note, an odd thought occurs...

Spoiler

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The Requiem core book explains that certain social rolls against humans have a maximum cap of (Humanity) dice; it makes a point of saying that the activation rolls for Disciplines aren't capped in that fashion, but it does point out that the cap is applied after all bonuses, that bonus dice cannot let you exceed that upper limit. So, then, how does that work with regard to "Awe," the level-one Majesty power?

• If a Kindred only gets the bonuses from Awe before the Humanity cap is applied, then there's no point to taking it - after all, if you can sling enough dice to successfully Awe people on a regular basis, then you probably already have enough dice that any bonuses you might get are wasted on the cap - you can't even use it to negate penalties, because it specifies that any penalties are conferred after the Humanity cap is applied.
• If a Kindred gets the bonuses from Awe after the Humanity cap is applied, then a social Kindred with this Discipline has far less to fear from a low Humanity, provided he can hurl enough dice at the activation roll.

[Fouredged Sword]

I am away from book right now, but I think Awe specifically exempts itself from humanity caps.

I have seen the diablery issue rear it's head and be turned down before. Nobody wanted to face the fangs when it was their turn to sleep. The race wasn't to 0 after all, but to power and humanity 3-4ish was the most flexible.

[TheCountAlucard]

I am away from book right now, but I think Awe specifically exempts itself from humanity caps.

Gone over it several times, without seeing any such exemption - if someone would find it for me, I'll gladly admit to derping.

[Chambers]

When a Kindred interacts with people other than vampires, a player may use no more dice in Empathy, Persuasion or Socialize pools than his character has Humanity dots.

...

This limitation does not apply to Discipline powers that call for Empathy, Persuasion, or Socialize in their dice pools, as these powers are supernatural in effect and thus outside the normal realm of experience governed by Humanity.

.

As Awe uses a dice pool of Presence + Expression + Majesty, it's not exempt from the the Humanity limit on dice pools.

Thinking about it for a minute, one possible reason that it's not excluded is that Majesty is about understanding and controlling the emotions of the target. The Beast doesn't understand or care about emotions, it just wants to hunt, kill, feed, and sleep.

On the other hand, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th dot powers of Majesty do use either Empathy or Persuasion (not the 5th). Huh. So the Beast can Summon, Entrance, and Reveal, but not Awe or be Sovereign. Weird.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

.

As Awe uses a dice pool of Presence + Expression + Majesty, it's not exempt from the the Humanity limit on dice pools.

Thinking about it for a minute, one possible reason that it's not excluded is that Majesty is about understanding and controlling the emotions of the target. The Beast doesn't understand or care about emotions, it just wants to hunt, kill, feed, and sleep.

On the other hand, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th dot powers of Majesty do use either Empathy or Persuasion (not the 5th). Huh. So the Beast can Summon, Entrance, and Reveal, but not Awe or be Sovereign. Weird.

The Humanity limit only applies to Empathy, Persuasion, and Socialize rolls that are not made as part of Discipline use. Awe uses Expression, which isn't limited by Humanity in the first place. Ergo, Awe isn't limited by Humanity.

[Chambers]

The Humanity limit only applies to Empathy, Persuasion, and Socialize rolls that are not made as part of Discipline use. Awe uses Expression, which isn't limited by Humanity in the first place. Ergo, Awe isn't limited by Humanity.

::facepalm::

Totally misread that whole part.

[TheCountAlucard]

Ergo, Awe isn't limited by Humanity.

Awe's activation roll may be based off Expression, but the bonus a successful roll confers as per the Discipline's mechanics applies to all manner of social rolls.

Any social rolls he engages in with them gains a number of bonus dice equal to the number of successes rolled to activate the power.

That is what I am asking about, not the Discipline's activation roll, because rolls to activate Disciplines aren't capped by Humanity.

Bonuses cannot raise a player’s dice pool over his character’s Humanity limit, so add them before comparing a pool to a character’s Humanity.

And that's the other relevant text.

[Fouredged Sword]

hrrrmmmm...

On the surface you appear to be right. I have always seen it played as a bonus that ignores that limit. It makes it a tasty buy for low humanity vamps.

On the other hand though, I can't find a specific rule saying that it is exempt. I was under the impression there was, but I appear to be wrong.

I think that the power is rather useless if you don't let it exempt it though. Any bonus dice would be caped at 10 even if you got max humanity. If you are social enough to power the ability, you are social enough to hit your humanity cap anyway.

I will keep it exempt in any game I story tell for practicality, unless someone can point me a specific rule one way or another.

[Hel65]

I think that the power is rather useless if you don't let it exempt it though. Any bonus dice would be caped at 10 even if you got max humanity. If you are social enough to power the ability, you are social enough to hit your humanity cap anyway.

Well, I don't think it's that bad for a one dot power. You still get to Intimidate and Subterfuge mortals (and, I guess, Streetwise them). You can also affect lesser vampires with it to get a full range of social bonuses.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Well, I don't think it's that bad for a one dot power. You still get to Intimidate and Subterfuge mortals (and, I guess, Streetwise them). You can also affect lesser vampires with it to get a full range of social bonuses.

Which is all you really need anyway. I mean, they're just humans. I don't know about you guys, but I don't talk to my food before I eat it.

[comicshorse]

Which is all you really need anyway. I mean, they're just humans. I don't know about you guys, but I don't talk to my food before I eat it.

Philistine ! You can get so many subtle flavours depending on the mood you invoke

[ToySoldierCPlus]

Philistine ! You can get so many subtle flavours depending on the mood you invoke

There's only one mood I care for: fear. I've always preferred my food bloody and having once known fear, why should that be any different now? Especially since I can really taste the adrenaline.

[The Glyphstone]

Philistine ! You can get so many subtle flavours depending on the mood you invoke

Or the right sauces/spices. Chinese meat, for instance - ironically, it's not at all tasty coated with duck sauce.

Coolest. Bloodline. Ever.

[TheCountAlucard]

And again, thoughts are flipping around in my head.

As I'm flipping through the Invictus book, I can't help but be a little confused; from the stuff I'd encountered in the VtR core book (difficulties associated with living as an elder, lack of Elder-level Disciplines, and how so few Kindred are willing to pack up and go to another city, heck, just the plain relative scarcity of vampires in general), I didn't think thousand-plus-year-old Kindred with ancestry dating back to ancient Rome and the Camarilla would be so... ubiquitous.

Hell, in my Requiem game, the oldest active Kindred in the city who can still provide any sort of proof of his age is the Prince, and he's (just) a little over 250 years old.

[Fouredged Sword]

In my games there are normally a few really old vampires, Most of the vampires in my games are all 1-5 years old though. Attrition must be really high in those courts, and anyone younger than a decade is considered noting but fodder for the intrigue.

The age of your city is such an important factor in the world that it really deserves it's own though though. A city full to the brim of century old vampires feels very different than a city full of young fools who don't know what they are doing.

Both have their places on the table.

I generally have my players set a age bracket up or down from the average of the city depending if I want them to be consider themselves powerful or not. This allows for scaling of the players power (somewhat) independent from the scale for how powerful they feel.

[Wings of Peace]

Saw the posts about Inferno and decided to start reading it myself. Something that at stood out to me is that demons can grant humans Numina so long as that Numina is applicable (materialize for example would not be applicable because a human is already mateerial).