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2011-07-29, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
I'm getting tired of multiquoting, so I'm gonna be skipping less major details and stacking blocks together now.
Archers have two attributes to worry about instead of one and have no ranged version of power attack for easy extra damage. If you're used to just base weapon+str+magic then sure, they can do good damage, but nothing compared to an optimized melee build. It's enough to be worth stacking another spell, but it's not nearly as bad as dealing with anyone in melee. I think you're really underestimating how good mirror image is: it'll usually give you at least 4 images, so that's four attacks soaked, not counting any that miss due to iterative penalties and botched rolls (it happens). Regarding social sklills: they just aren't that useful short-term without serious optimization. I'll give you that over time you can be as magnificent of a bastard as you can imagine, but in the course of one day there's not much room. It takes time to use those skills, and they give you very little influence below epic.
Finally, and most important for this block: just because it can be done in the real world doesn't mean it can be done in dnd. Sure, you can try to do something, and the DM can choose to make up some mechanics for it on the spot, but he is not required to do so. Many DMs don't like dealing with anything that's not in the rules and default to a simple "no" whenever faced with such questions. It doesn't matter what you personally think a class can do and would allow: unless the class (skill, spell, etc) explicitly says that you can do it, then it probably doesn't matter for game balance.
All those other things can be bypassed or are of limited use, though.
But unlike the other things, AC can be sent up to extremely high levels; a classic sword-and-board can hit the low 40s by level 20 with minimal optimization, and a character optimized for AC with a high-power point buy can reach the low 70s in melee when fighting defensively.
Like the low level buffs which can negate some of the wizard's options.
Yes, but not so long for between combats.
Why not? Assuming it takes a 10 to hit (which should be pretty reasonable), a 20% miss chance is equivalent to only +2 AC (and generally far harder to get and easier to bypass), and even a 50% miss chance (which you can't really get for more than 1 round/level) is only equivalent to +5 AC. Miss chances don't stack (a 20% miss chance and a 50% miss chance just mean two rolls), and if both come from concealment (most do) they don't even call for separate rolls.
Not all the time. Just enough to make the wizards not invulnerable.And yes, that does mean 10 min/level spells can be used for multiple fights, but most of those are relatively easy to bypass or get around (there is no combination of 10 min/level spells that will protect you well against a power-attacking enemy, or against 3 separate energy types.)
Except for the fact that, as you pointed out, they have augmentation to make low-level powers usable as higher-level ones.
You can't have it both ways; if the psion compares well to the sorcerer in spells known, he can't also be far stronger in the same issue.
Heighten comes pretty close, and Maximize/Empower can actually make evocation spells better than the equivalent-level unmetamagicked spells.
Large area and severe penalty are constant, though, so the sorcerer can get that too (and after the first few levels, they don't increase that much with level.)
A large part of the idea of my wizard fix was that contributing a couple spells to each fight should often not be sufficient. (Saves will also help here.)
There is no such thing as a spellcraft item, so it can't be masterwork. But yes, it will not be all that hard, it's a minor point rather than a major one.
And those are the things with DC less than your bonus (or equal, or more by 1.)
A copy that's written in a style somewhat different than your own.
The only spell that's really essential is Dispel Magic, and you can get that as one of your 2 free spells at level 5.
Oh, also another couple of notes about defensive buffs and wizard vs. sorcerer:
1. Even if you can fight multiple fights before they run out, a dispel can seriously wreck your day if you only have one of everything.
2. Most of the buffs aren't self-only, so while the wizard can be better protected, the sorcerer can protect the whole party (to a somewhat lesser extent.)
As for buffing, hehe, I've taken that even farther. I've got a crackpot theory that the wizard's 4 spells per day at each level are supposed to be divided between the 4 party members, since everyone should be sharing their resources (casters share magic, tanks share hp, skills share movement). No one else seemed to give it the barest consideration last I posted it, but there it is.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-29, 03:08 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
Yes, it's not as bad...on the flip side, wizards tend to have low hit points anyway, so it's going to be an issue (though to really beat fly, you want either flying of your own or else dispel.)
I think you're really underestimating how good mirror image is: it'll usually give you at least 4 images, so that's four attacks soaked, not counting any that miss due to iterative penalties and botched rolls (it happens).
Regarding social sklills: they just aren't that useful short-term without serious optimization.
More to the point, they can't be used effectively with access to only the books; you also need sufficient understanding of the in-character situation to find the way to get the best circumstance bonuses and have the effects you want.
But in the long-term, with proper in-character planning...they're incredible.
Finally, and most important for this block: just because it can be done in the real world doesn't mean it can be done in dnd.
I almost want to start shouting, "schrodenger's gear! schrodenger's feats!" but that's a bit extreme. Still, the reason wizard advocates get away with saying they always have the answer is because they can literally change their entire spell loadout every day.
Not so much with magic items and feats. And limited use doesn't matter as long as it lasts long enough. As for AC: go check the attack bonus on a couple CR 20 creatures. Red Dragon +36, Pit Fiend +30, Nightwalker +24 (and can destroy magic items). AC 40 isn't going to save you
and furthermore, it will cost a lot of your WBL that could have been spent on killing things better (which protects the whole party instead of just yourself).
I'd love to see this AC70 core only build by the way.
For classes, make sure to take at least 1 wizard (more is better, as you're going to be partially relying on Shield), at least 1 monk (although this can be replaced by a monk's belt; you still need a source of Tumble, though, unless you want to go cross-class), and 10 duelist. 2 barbarian is also advised, as a substantial part of that AC is lost when flatfooted.
For equipment, get +6 items to DEX, INT, and WIS (cost 108k, or 126k if using a custom item slot for the WIS bonus), and +5 inherent bonuses (from tomes and manuals) (cost 412.5k) to each. Advancement points go 1 in INT, 1 in WIS, and 3 in DEX, for a total of 32 DEX (+11 bonus), 28 INT (+9 bonus), and 26 WIS (+8 bonus). You get to add all three to your AC, so that's 10+11+9+8=38 already.
Now add +5 deflection (ring of protection costs 50k), +5 natural enhancement (amulet of natural armor costs 50k and requires a custom slot for the WIS bonus, or else just use potions of barkskin), and +8 armor bonus (bracers of armor cost 64k) to bring it up to 56.
Now add in shield, and if you took the necessary wizard levels (or have a scroll) alter self: Troglodyte for another 10, up to 66. When fighting defensively, you get not only +3 for fighting defensively with 5 ranks in tumble, but also +10 against melee from Elaborate Parry, for a total of 79. (You get deflect arrows too, so the fact that your ranged defense is 10 points lower shouldn't be too much of an issue.)
Oh, and the touch AC is 46 against ranged or 56 against melee.
(I made the basic build for the Core Coliseum.)
It is very rare for a low level spell to negate a higher one.
A wizard has far more options than a sorcerer of the same level, and a dragon is a sorcerer of a far lower level.
Dragon casting is generally best used for things like Mage Armor and Shield to enhance their already hard enough to beat AC, then adding spells that were designed for dragons like Scintillating Scales and Blood Wind, and swift action spells like Wraithstrike.
And why are you assuming it would take a 10 to hit?
It doesn't matter how low your AC is when Displacement cuts all the attacks in half. In fact, your argument works against you: unless you can make your AC consistently 10 or more points higher than your opponents attack rolls, for less cash than getting a 50% miss chance, the AC is never going to be worth it.
If I sounded like I thought wizards were invulnerable, I apologize, as that was not my intent. Just better defended than anyone else in the party
The spells you're looking for are Overland Flight and Stoneskin
and Resist Energy three different times.
Unless you're counting your fighter as prebuffed and attacking from above in an ambush, that's enough to give you the time to respond
What? I don't even. . . How am I trying to have it both ways? Yes, the psion has about the same number of powers known a sorcerer does spells. Yes, the psion is actually a bit better because it can augment some powers into effectively having more 9th level powers than the sorcerer. And yes, they are the psionic/magic equivalents of each other, both casting spontaneously off a spell list they cannot expand past what they learn on level up. None of these statements contradict each other.
No, heighten does not come close. It increases spell DC. It does somehow make a lower level spells into a drastically different (and better) effect.
And you can't really blast well in core either: you're missing both the spells and the metamagic reducers needed to make it truly powerful. It's still just a fallback when you can't do something better.
Have you compared the spells? There is a big difference between a 10' radius and a 20' radius, or targeting individual foes while avoiding allies, and there are always more severe effects.
A wizard can change this the next morning.
Now, with extra spells known at each level a boosted sorcerer won't be as bad off as before, but he will still eventually fall behind.
Except that by my reckoning (and most of the thread, from what I read), it did not accomplish this. Several of the most powerful spells were untouched
and others were only "countered" by increasing the duration of cleric spells that negated them.
Especially without any sort of preface stating that the fix assumed a world were there would be frequent encounters with "adventuring parties"
Right under Tools and Skill Kits there's an entry for Masterwork Tool, which confers a +2 bonus on it's skill. Are you telling me you can't think of anything that could possibly give a bonus on spellcraft checks, currently being compared to knowledge skills
Furthermore, in some of those splatbooks we're ignoring
My point being, that if it's easy enough to succeed on the check that it becomes only a minor point, why is it considered a fix?
I figure that's a fine way to do it, but it makes me afraid for everyone's sudden lack of ability to cook basic food
I've never seen Dispel Magic as all that essential.
As for buffing, hehe, I've taken that even farther. I've got a crackpot theory that the wizard's 4 spells per day at each level are supposed to be divided between the 4 party members
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2011-07-29, 05:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
And that's great for you. All the other DMs that don't feel like dealing with it will ban it, or look to your fix to fix it, and then ban it when they see it wasn't fixed.
Doesn't help if you don't know exactly what you'll face today.
Ok...this is the most extreme form of the build
And stuff like deathward and freedom of movement to totally block (no caster level checks, no "reduces X damage", no "lasts for a certain number of attacks and then is used up") most of the wizard's save-or-die and save-or-lose spells.
Now this is definitely not true in a well-functioning party, as most of the defensive spells can be cast on others.
Nope, only the last one has an effect. Straight RAW.
Yes, time to respond. But "respond" does not mean "win".
And yet the psion seems more equivalent to the wizard, in that he's got a discipline (just like wizards can have specialist schools), has INT as his main ability score, and gets bonus feats. The wilder is a far better match thematically for a sorcerer, so that's the proper comparison.
There's no masterwork tools for knowledge skills either.
Nah, basic tasks don't need skill checks. Doesn't everyone know that?
Anyway, I don't think I've got anything else to say. I'm glad that you took some of my advice, but I don't think any more is going to matter at this point (after a whole page of multiquote wars ). Maybe your game really does work out like all that, but in my, and a lot of the rest of the board's experience, many of your assumptions are just wrong. I really do recommend putting up a preface with your campaign assumptions/style/etc if you're writing a fix that depends so heavily on them for balancing factors not present in the game mechanics. Remember that when you post a mechanical fix, it will be evaluated based on the mechanics of the game in a vaccuum, unless you've gone through great lengths to establish some world in place of said vaccuum.Fizban's Tweaks and Brew: Google Drive (PDF), Thread
A collection of over 200 pages of individually small bans, tweaks, brews, and rule changes, usable piecemeal or nearly altogether, and even some convenient lists. Everything I've done that I'd call done enough to use in one place (plus a number of things I'm working on that aren't quite done, of course).
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2011-07-30, 09:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
Re: [3.5 Core] Boosting the sorcerer (PEACH)
None of my fixes are meant to address the "rules don't cover everything" issue, as that can only be dealt with case-by-case.
And Mr. Schrodenger doesn't know what he's facing either.
Ok, so it's possible, but the character will still be almost completely useless.
You need a CR 18 dragon in order to have access to 4th level spells, with caster level 9. Considering you're the one advocating dispelling, I'd expect you to realize how long those would last against a real 18th level caster.
Can does not mean will. The classic wizard problem is that there's no reason to help the party when you can just crush everything into jelly and wait for them to clean it up.
In normal DnD, yes it does. With your mods? Maybe a little less so, but unless this fighter also somehow has all the immunity buffs up, then he's got a very good chance of going down to something
if he doesn't just get hit with a no-save.
Wow, okay, so just ignore the actual mechanics of the class then. Primary casting stat is one word in one line, discipline focuses can be found in almost any class, and pre-written fluff isn't everything.
There don't need to be, that's the whole point! They give examples of specialized fancy tools like Thieve's Tools and Alchemy Labs, and then for everything else they just say "eh, it's 50gp and gives a +2 if it applies to the skill."
And as I already said, there are plenty of other books that give precedent to "expensive book= masterwork bonus." The only way you can say that there's no masterwork tool for something is if you use the same logic I have been, where you don't feel like making something up.
Remember that when you post a mechanical fix, it will be evaluated based on the mechanics of the game in a vaccuum, unless you've gone through great lengths to establish some world in place of said vaccuum.