Debate: Elan or Nale

[Vent Reynolt]

I think that it was Nale that was born first. Tarquin would probably have wanted to pass on his empire to his eldest son, and therefore kept Nale by his side to pass the empire on to him.

Unless... Tarquin expected the evil twin's betrayal, and therefore made sure that the good twin was the elder one to pass the empire on to him instead.

Yes, I know this theory is kinda silly.

[Cizak]

Yeah, to get back on topic:

I think it could go either way. Nale would be very happy to get an opportunity to push his brother without repercussions, so pushing him out of the womb first would make Elan the elder.

I'm liking this idea. There's a very high chance that Nale was just born evil, so what is stopping that he was evil already in the womb? So it makes sense that when their home was suddenly opened and they could see a scary, bright light it would lie in Nale's insticts to push his brother out first, to save himself.

EDIT:

It doesn't matter what gender Vaarsuvius is either but we have a debate thread for that. We ask because "Why not?"

This. There's also no evidence whatsoever what gender V is, and that topic doesn't get bashed like this one did.

[FujinAkari]

Ugh, even if you are twins it still means that one will be born before the other, therefore that twin is older. It's really not that hard to grasp.

Please don't call me stupid.

And no, as a twin I find the idea that I'm not actually a twin -very- offensive. My brother and I were born at the same time in the same room, so neither of us are older. If one of us came out two minutes sooner... who he heck cares?

I have, honestly, never heard of this concept, and view it as an attempt to undo the very thing that -makes- twins special.

Possibly an over-reaction... but I still have a hard time comprehending the idea of an 'older twin.' Its like a deader corpse.

This. There's also no evidence whatsoever what gender V is, and that topic doesn't get bashed like this one did.

Not really. There is actually a -lot- of evidence for V's gender, it is just mostly circumstancial.

[Cizak]

[QUOTE=EspritRequin;11480373]

Please don't call me stupid.

And no, as a twin I find the idea that I'm not actually a twin -very- offensive. My brother and I were born at the same time in the same room, so neither of us are older. If one of us came out two minutes sooner... who he heck cares?

I have, honestly, never heard of this concept, and view it as an attempt to undo the very thing that -makes- twins special.

Possibly an over-reaction... but I still have a hard time comprehending the idea of an 'older twin.' Its like a deader corpse.



Not really. There is actually a -lot- of evidence for V's gender, it is just mostly circumstancial.

1) I'm not calling you stupid, and I appoligize if you understood it as that.

I'm also not trying to be offensive. I'm not a twin, so I will never understand the bond between twins, but it's still a fact that the one who came first is older than the other one. Be it an hour our a minute. It's nothing to get upset about really, it's just a fact. If I'm born on July 1st 00:00, and another person is born on July 1st 23:59, I would be older than the other person. If he had been born one minute later, that is on July 2nd, then you would call him on day younger than me. But if he is born on July 1st 23:59, he is not? Yes he is. I know I'm being repetitive here, but technically the one born first is older.
EDIT: Furthermore, you are still a twin. Twins are two people who shared the same womb in the same woman.

2) "Who the heck cares?"
Well, apparently the OP. He thought it would make for a fun debate.

3) No, there isn't actually any evidence about V's gender. Evidence has to actually prove something, and nothing proves what gender V is.

[Esprit15]

Futhering the previous poster's answer, the only 'evidence' either way are a few loose trends and whether Rich had a good grasp on masculin and feminine suffixes.

[lio45]

3) No, there isn't actually any evidence about V's gender.

Actually, there's plenty of evidence.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evidence

Noun

evidence (usually uncountable; plural evidences)

1. Facts or observations presented in support of an assertion.
(...)

[Cizak]

Actually, there's plenty of evidence.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/evidence

Noun

evidence (usually uncountable; plural evidences)

1. Facts or observations presented in support of an assertion.
(...)

Hmm. Not the way I've learned how to use the word, but if other people are using in such a way, then cool. I was wrong on #3.

[Mutant Sheep]

This. There's also no evidence whatsoever what gender V is, and that topic doesn't get bashed like this one did.

That's cause the Giant has mention V's gender as a " IT"S A SECRET I'M NOT TELLING!" situation. This just seems random, and I doubt Rich has spent a second thinking about this. I think.

[theinsulabot]

Not that I think the OP's question is actually important, but I must say I'm quite surprised there are people who have trouble with the idea of an elder and younger twin. I didn't know there was anyone who would fault the idea.

Its just as easy to say someone is 1 second, 1 minute, or 1 hour older as it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year. The amount of time is just saying how much older, and in that sense is nearly irrelevant other then the basic premise of "older"

If elan came out first, he is the elder twin, if nale did, he is the elder.

Good lord folks this isn't a new concept, the eldest child gaining the thrown/crown/right to rule has been a standard for at least a thousand years, you don't think the subject has come up before? And that was almost always the deciding point.

[JackRackham]

Lol. This wasn't supposed to be important. It's just a thought that occurred to me. The elder twin supposedly tends to be slightly stronger, they'll often be minutely taller, etc. And this is why they come first (again, supposedly. I don't know THAT much about the biology involved). It struck me as a mildly interesting question. That's all. For the record, I'd guess Nale is older.

[Cizak]

Not that I think the OP's question is actually important, but I must say I'm quite surprised there are people who have trouble with the idea of an elder and younger twin. I didn't know there was anyone who would fault the idea.

Its just as easy to say someone is 1 second, 1 minute, or 1 hour older as it is 1 day, 1 month, 1 year. The amount of time is just saying how much older, and in that sense is nearly irrelevant other then the basic premise of "older"

If elan came out first, he is the elder twin, if nale did, he is the elder.

Good lord folks this isn't a new concept, the eldest child gaining the thrown/crown/right to rule has been a standard for at least a thousand years, you don't think the subject has come up before? And that was almost always the deciding point.

Pretty much my thoughts, though I may have been expressing myself badly. I also can't understand how the concept of an elder and a younger twin could "try to ruin what make twins special" and "telling a twin that he/she is not a twin". Again, I'm not a twin (but I do know a pair of twins), but isn't the special thing about a twin that he/she is a sibling that you shared a womb with, i.e. you have been together all of your life? Also it makes me wonder, if two people shared a womb and one is born 1/7 23:59 and one is born 2/7 00:01, are they no longer twins? It just baffles me that this should be a thing to discuss.

[Goosefarble]

All the guy is asking is which one popped out a few minutes before the other, Jesus Christ you guys.

[The Dark Fiddler]

All the guy is asking is which one popped out a few minutes before the other, Jesus Christ you guys.

And all the rest of us are saying is (a) it doesn't matter and (b) there's no way to tell. No need to get snippy.

[Kibble Sage]

And all the rest of us are saying is (a) it doesn't matter and (b) there's no way to tell. No need to get snippy.

Well, not all the rest. There's one poster here who seems to have taken the question -- and indeed the idea that one twin is a couple minutes older than the other -- to be some kind of personal affront and general insult to twins.

I'm not going to comment on that attitude, but I will say that it's objectively and undeniably true that one twin is going to be a few seconds or a few minutes older than the other. It's basically the idea that there's a door that only one person can fit through at a time, and you have two people going through it, one of them is inevitably going to be through it first. Just a physical necessity without teleportation, nothing to get any type of garments in a twist about.

With that said, I like the theory that Nale would shove Elan out first to see what happened to him.

[Klear]

With that said, I like the theory that Nale would shove Elan out first to see what happened to him.

I like the idea that Nale wanted to get out there first more. Wow! A whole new wide world! I want to be there first and take over it!

On the other hand, I'd guess that Nale is older, but that's obviously an effect of Elan being so childish.

BTW, writing Elan and Nale all the time is kinda weird with the names reveresed as they are.

[super dark33]

With that said, I like the theory that Nale would shove Elan out first to see what happened to him.

I like my theory of Nale pushing Elan out to have all the Womb for himself.
too bad his reign over it wasnt as long as he exepted.

[FujinAkari]

Well, not all the rest. There's one poster here who seems to have taken the question -- and indeed the idea that one twin is a couple minutes older than the other -- to be some kind of personal affront and general insult to twins.

I am quite sure no one feels that way.

[Cizak]

And all the rest of us are saying is (a) it doesn't matter and (b) there's no way to tell. No need to get snippy.

Again, both those points also apply to V's gender, and that topic doesn't get trashed.

[Cizak]

I am quite sure no one feels that way.

Well, I hate to keep arguing, but:

And no, as a twin I find the idea that I'm not actually a twin -very- offensive. My brother and I were born at the same time in the same room, so neither of us are older. If one of us came out two minutes sooner... who he heck cares?

I have, honestly, never heard of this concept, and view it as an attempt to undo the very thing that -makes- twins special.

[martianmister]

Elan is a real unisex name, but Nale is backwards of the same name. So, I think Elan is the older brother. Tarquin and his wife probably named their unborn child as Elan in the first place.

[Theodoriph]

Elan is a real unisex name, but Nale is backwards of the same name. So, I think Elan is the older brother. Tarquin and his wife probably named their unborn child as Elan in the first place.

Nale is a real name too. As is Nail. I'm not too sure why you'd think it wouldn't be real. :p

[FujinAkari]

Well, I hate to keep arguing, but:

I thought the fact that I replied saying I didn't feel that way made it pretty self-evident that I didn't feel that way...

I even say -in the part you quoted- that I belong to the "who cares" camp, which is especially ironic since you say that "Not everyone thinks it isn't answerable or doesn't care..."

[Cizak]

I thought the fact that I replied saying I didn't feel that way made it pretty self-evident that I didn't feel that way...

I even say -in the part you quoted- that I belong to the "who cares" camp, which is especially ironic since you say that "Not everyone thinks it isn't answerable or doesn't care..."

You obviosuly do care.

EDIT: And when have I ever said that "not everyone thinks it isn't answerable or doesn't care" when talking about whether a twins can be different ages or not?

Well, not all the rest. There's one poster here who seems to have taken the question -- and indeed the idea that one twin is a couple minutes older than the other -- to be some kind of personal affront and general insult to twins.

And no, as a twin I find the idea that I'm not actually a twin -very- offensive. My brother and I were born at the same time in the same room, so neither of us are older. If one of us came out two minutes sooner... who he heck cares?

I have, honestly, never heard of this concept, and view it as an attempt to undo the very thing that -makes- twins special.

Possibly an over-reaction... but I still have a hard time comprehending the idea of an 'older twin.' Its like a deader corpse.

The "deader corpse" is by the way a pretty ridiculous statement. You can't be more dead than dead, but you can certainly be older than someone else.

[Klear]

The "deader corpse" is by the way a pretty ridiculous statement. You can't be more dead than dead, but you can certainly be older than someone else.

Not in a DnD setting. After his fight with Xykon, Roy was certainly deader than all the animated corpses in Xykon's army.

[Cizak]

Not in a DnD setting. After his fight with Xykon, Roy was certainly deader than all the animated corpses in Xykon's army.

Nope, you cannot be "deader" or "deadest". You can only be dead. A dead person is a dead person, one cannot be more dead than the other. Even if include zombies and undead in that, it's still true. If you are dead, you are dead. Not deader than anything else.

[VanBuren]

Please don't call me stupid.

Please don't put words in someone else's mouth.

And no, as a twin I find the idea that I'm not actually a twin -very- offensive.

My father is a twin, and he and his brother are both open about the fact that one of them came out first, and that if it hadn't been a C-section, it would have been the other one.

My brother and I were born at the same time in the same room, so neither of us are older. If one of us came out two minutes sooner... who he heck cares?

Some people are interested, obviously. And for what it's worth, I could ask you the very same question.

I have, honestly, never heard of this concept, and view it as an attempt to undo the very thing that -makes- twins special.

I'll be honest, I never thought that Twins were special because they simultaneously came out of the birth canal. Now, I'm thinking of identical twins at this part, but I would have imagined it was the identical appearance and DNA and the shared experiences that resulted as a consequence, potentially resulting in bonding were what made it special.

[FujinAkari]

You obviosuly do care.

No, for the third time, I don't. Leave me alone.

I had an over-reaction, like I said in the first post, I'm not sure why you continue berating me over it, but stop.

Also, the rediculous of "deader corpse" was pretty much my whole point.

Please don't put words in someone else's mouth.

My father is a twin, and he and his brother are both open about the fact that one of them came out first, and that if it hadn't been a C-section, it would have been the other one.

See what I mean?

People, leave me alone, I already said it was an over-reaction and I don't think that. Geez.

[Cizak]

No, for the third time, I don't. Leave me alone.

I had an over-reaction, like I said in the first post, I'm not sure why you continue berating me over it, but stop.

Also, the rediculous of "deader corpse" was pretty much my whole point.


See what I mean?

People, leave me alone, I already said it was an over-reaction and I don't think that. Geez.

I continued discussing it with you because you never actually stated that you didn't care. In your posts, you sounded like you still had issues with the subject. There's a big difference between "Possibly an over-reaction... but I still have a hard time comprehending the idea of an 'older twin.' Its like a deader corpse." and "I over reacted, and I don't actually think you're hating on twins by stating these things.".

But fine, if we're done, then we're done.

[lio45]

Again, both those points also apply to V's gender, and that topic doesn't get trashed.

It doesn't get trashed because there is enough evidence to fuel a discussion. Same thing in MitD's case. I hope you don't really think it's mere happenstance that those two threads have reached hundred of pages, while this one probably won't get beyond two...

The differences:

1) Rich stated there IS an actual answer
2) There are actual cues in the comic (very early ones for V, later ones for MitD)
3) There are elements of evidence to be found on the forums (mostly from Rich's posts)
4) There are elements of evidence in the books commentaries




Edit to avoid double post:

Nope, you cannot be "deader" or "deadest". You can only be dead. A dead person is a dead person, one cannot be more dead than the other. Even if include zombies and undead in that, it's still true. If you are dead, you are dead. Not deader than anything else.

Sure you can! If you're at -12 hit points, you're deader than if you're at -11 hit points... and at -20 HP, deader still.

[Fitzclowningham]

The convention that you only start counting someone once they're born (and therefore which twin came first means something) is due to the fact that many children died during birth in olden times. It's an old truism that you don't count them until they're hatched.