DotA 2 - Valve's up and coming hat simulator

[Inhuman Bot]

I'm going to miss S2's new additions to HoN in DotA 2. Myrmidon, Gauntlet, Maliken, Revenant, Amun-Ra, Nomad, Empath, New Keeper of the Forest, Rampage and so on were excellent. I also preferred some of their concepts of DotA heroes over their original designs, too; Pharoah over Clockwork Goblin, Wretched Hag over Queen of Pain, Swiftblade over Juggernaut, and so on. I'm sure Valve will do a good job at that part, though.

Edit: Blood Hunter was cooler then Stywgyr, too.

Goodluck. Unless you consider heroes like Puck "cute" or heroes like Crystal Maiden "pretty." LoL is the exception to the rule of cartoony and happy graphics against the terrible, dark, brooding world that is DotA/HoN.

It's so dark and brooding that they have giant kung-fu pandas screaming about how they bring Pandamonium. Besides, if I recall correctly, heroes such as Chipper came out before any of the similar heroes in LoL.

While you guys are arguing about LoL/HoN/DotA crap, something interesting is going on in China.

A gentleman named Sicong Wang, the son of China's richest billionare who recently purchased the rights for Chinese football (soccer), has purchased CCM, which is a team that plays DotA, SC2 and LoL amongst others and fields the best DotA team on the planet and renamed them to iG.

I can't read Chinese very well so I can't figure out what the link is but LGD, China's perennial #2 DotA team has disbanded and I believe some of their members are being incorpated into iG.

DotA 2's success is more or less assured, it seems, and Western Tournaments are irrelevant. China is setting up DotA to be their Brood Wars.

[Joran]

What? No. Valve is an incredibly ruthless and cuthroat company.

I wouldn't say cutthroat. After all, Valve does things that are nice for gamers.

They gave away Portal for free for a bit of time.
They gave away Alien Swarm.
DLC for PC games is free. They added new content to TF2. They added new campaigns to L4D and L4D2.
Occasionally, they do randomly cool stuff like the ARG for Portal 2.

As far as I know, working for Valve is not working for EA where it's mandatory overtime and then they cut you loose after the game is shipped. Valve seems more like a collaborative environment, similar to Google, and not crazily corporate like Activision or EA. The bottom line is not everything, especially since they're swimming in money from Steam.

Valve will also hire people whose projects they really like. I think it's this small guy made it to the big time that makes Valve well-loved. The original team of Narbacular Drop turned into Portal. Counter-Strike Source. Team Fortress 2.

I'm a huge Valve fanboy; I buy most of my games through Steam. I just have an issue of them grabbing the DotA name when it should belong to the community.

[Tono]

Here is my counter proposal to your statement:
In LoL if you have a scrub in lane with you two things have happened A) you are solo queuing. B) you are playing with a scrub despite the fact that he or she is a scrub. In the case of B, two bad. You knew the risks. Maybe thats a bit mean but there is a reason that certain kids are picked last in pickup sports games all over the world. In the case of A, my response is that LoL, despite having lots of solo queue, really shouldn't be about Solo Queue. It is, and that's Riot's fault, but I play a LOT of 4 queues and 5 queues and its 10x better than Solo Queuing, which is a crapshot at every level of play.

So, if I am with bad players I personally am not allowed to do well or have fun? I shouldn't personally be able to at least affect my lane to a certain extent whether or not my lanemate is competent? I don't see this as a positive thing at all. Not saying with deny you can control a lane no matter what, a bad player is a bad player, but forgoing my ability to do well despite my lanemate is about as anti-fun as it gets.

It might be synergistic, but its still bad designed. Skeleton King players, in addition to last hitting, blah, blah, have to do one thing: stun people. THATS IT. Its not like, say, Xin Zhao or Udyr in LoL, those guys have to know when to use what abilities. Skeleton King? Just throw your storm bolt and charge the guy till you're about dead, then run away.

Skeleton King doesn't run away. Ever.
No, but in all seriousness, thats one Hero. One extremely fun hero, may I add, but one. If this topic was about SK versus LoL, it'd be nice, but lets pick on some of the hundred others. Like Invoker. He has how many abilities? Lets use him as the standard for fun. ... Wait.

Its my opinion that Crit Chance and Dodge are both bad mechanics that need to be removed from the game. Why? Because Randomness doesn't allow for skill. If I 1v1 a guy and we have equal crit chance/damage and he kills me, that's luck, not skill. (Assuming we are equal skill). Luck should never be a factor in a game like LoL or Dota. Dodge would be easy to remove from LoL, if not for a few champions (JAX!), Crit strike is more promblematic, but still possible to remove. Again: thats an opinion, but still, I think its a good opinion.

Luck has always been a part of gaming, from Rolling dice to artificially random numbers. I tend to like it, but thats just me.

I'd point to something more along these lines: In DotA, mages can't scale. This is a design quirk of the WC3 engine which basically only allows for Crit strike/Attack Speed builds if you want to scale. This is a major problem since all your carries MUST be Physical Damage heroes (or autoattackers, since technically DotA doesn't have Physical/Magic Damage). Heroes like Lich, thus, have to have insane lvl 6 burst so they don't end up being completely useless due to a lack of items late game. This isn't true in LoL because Mages can scale. That's a design FLAW if you ask me. Its a FLAW that HoN and, possibly, DotA2 have/will replicate. Its stupid.

DotA does have physical and magic damage, I want to get this out of the way right now. There are three damage types mainly used in DotA IIRC, Physical, Magical, and Chaos(Or pure. w/e it was called.) Mages might not of scaled in pure damage, but mages were also support. Any support player eventually made a sheepstick or silence stick for extra damage, maybe not from themselves, but keeping the carry/enemy support silenced/sheep'd/dagon'd down could easily turn teamfights. Hell, have you seen what a necrocomicon could do with a player that could use it properly? Not to mention it was the supports job to keep up with the chicken and wards to such an extent that one can support a hero, while in another lane. As for the mages that weren't support, Silencer, Obsidian, SS, DS, zues, Reaper, and I'm sure one or two more I am forgetting all have ways to scale into the game to be efficient at higher levels. Whether it is damage based on mana or stats, or % damage to decent later, it all works.
Not to mention, that an... Aghaims(sp?) staff actually does improve a good bit of ultimates. (Did. Might have changed.) A lot of those being, the caster type.
A pure jump in numbers != no improvement what so ever.

I'm fighting someone, I make a mistake, I die. I know I made a mistake (if I don't, if I care about getting better I'll do research to find what went wrong). Now, the punishment in this instance is that you died. The punishment of taking damage is you take damage. This gives your opponent an advantage, allowing him to be more aggressive while you are more conservative (this can work in your favor in a long-term engagement, but in a quick battle... its less likely to happen). You shouldn't need to be punished ADDITIONALLY when you've already been killed. The kill is enough. This would be dying in Modern Warfare and then respawning with less health than everyone else because YOU DIED.

I've already conceded this point, I see nothing wrong with having a punishment to death, specially when you could buy seconds before you die, but IF and others must have seen something wrong with it as they greatly reduced the punishment.

This. That's like saying, "no one ever flamed me in lol, but I always played with friends." I get flamed all the time when I solo queue. Its part of solo queue.

Don't get me wrong, I solo'd quite a bit, but I've never had a major problem with flamers. I guess considering myself Below league level play. but in a decent higher-but-still-average, average level helped.

[Inhuman Bot]

I wouldn't say cutthroat. After all, Valve does things that are nice for gamers.

They stomp every bit of competition into the ground without mercy, though. Examples: Tf2 beta, DotA 2's announcement, what happened with Monday Night Combat, Steam Sales, shutting down indie developers that try to muscle into their territory, and so on. Good buisiness practice, but still pretty brutal.

[Shovah]

First of all, you are looking at Deny'n wrong, its main thing is lane control. Thats what it give. You can start deny'n a creep at 50% health. You can pull a wave if you are over extended, you can block a creep wave from base to give you that little edge. Hell, I would say taking away that small measure of control is Anti-fun.

Here is my counter proposal to your statement:
In LoL if you have a scrub in lane with you two things have happened A) you are solo queuing. B) you are playing with a scrub despite the fact that he or she is a scrub. In the case of B, two bad. You knew the risks. Maybe thats a bit mean but there is a reason that certain kids are picked last in pickup sports games all over the world. In the case of A, my response is that LoL, despite having lots of solo queue, really shouldn't be about Solo Queue. It is, and that's Riot's fault, but I play a LOT of 4 queues and 5 queues and its 10x better than Solo Queuing, which is a crapshot at every level of play.

That.. isn't a counter. There are plenty of ways a lane could go against you beyond the other player being bad. And most people don't constantly queue with 3-4 others, so.. whether you think they should or not, it matters. Or it would in this case, if who you got teamed with was the main decider on what happens in your lane.
Similar to Tono, I enjoy the extra lane control options it gives me.

Denying towers is something I can't really speak on. I found the mechanic, along with denying in general, to be counter-intuitive and unnecessary to create a dynamic laning and team-fighting system. LoL has both of those without denying. But that's my opinion and I can't really say much else.

It may be counter-intuitive, but once a tutorial tells you what it is it doesn't take long to get used to. As for necessary? Of course not, but neither are most things in the game, and as far as I can tell most players of MOBAs with it either enjoy it or are at least indifferent to it.

It might be synergistic, but its still bad designed. Skeleton King players, in addition to last hitting, blah, blah, have to do one thing: stun people. THATS IT. Its not like, say, Xin Zhao or Udyr in LoL, those guys have to know when to use what abilities. Skeleton King? Just throw your storm bolt and charge the guy till you're about dead, then run away.

Just because you only have one active skill doesn't mean you don't have to know when to use it. If anything, it means you need to be even more aware of when, where, and how you use that particular skill.

To be fair: Karthus plays nothing like Orianna, because of how his Q interacts with his passive, and the fact that Orianna's ult is completely different. Actually, Karthus plays basically like an AD carry, while Orianna plays more like Janna, that is, a support champion. The fact that both do massive amounts of Deeps is there only real similiarity.

Jarvan and Renekton are basically the same champion, yes. That's why no one plays Renek, cuz Jarvan is better. Xin Zhao is, I suppose, kinda like the rest, but he's basically a burst mage that builds Armor Pen and attack Damage. Irelia is a super sustain laner... but she really doesn't have the initiation of the other champions.

Rumble and Mordekaiser might be pretty similar, but Morde has his shield and Rumble has heat. Oh, and Morde's ult is 100% different. Both basically build the same though, I'll admit.

But the claim was never that there were no differences in those champions. It was simply- as was claimed (and true) for heroes in DotA - that there are several characters who either are or appear to be on some level similar, including even having very similar spells in some of the cases.


All of this is from a player of LoL and HoN, with some casual DotA experience.

[Suedars]

So interesting intellectual property question for those who love DotA. What gives Valve the right to port over all the heroes, maps, and to trademark the name "DotA"? Since, DotA was originally a completely community-based initiative, I assume hero appearances, art, names should belong to the people who created them.

Unlike previous Valve spin-offs like Team Fortress, Valve only hired IceFrog and not the entire development team. Previous people who worked on DotA like Guinsoo and Pendragon work for rival companies. Also, DotA was not originally developed on a Valve platform like Team Fortress was.

I find it odd that Valve is trying to grab at DotA's popularity.

A link to an interview with Guinsoo (IceFrog's predecessor) and Pendragon.

http://www.pcgamer.com/2010/08/17/ri...ota-trademark/

Guinsoo's claim to the game is laughable.

Originally DotA was actually a number of different maps, each with its own creator updating it. Eul's was the most popular. One modder had the idea of taking a bunch of the more popular heroes from each individual version of DotA and including them in one version, and calling it DotA Allstars. Guinsoo was a beta tester for that developer.

He stole the map from that beta, made a few small changes, called it his own, and removed all credit from the previous developer. The original modder approached Guinsoo a bit later and told him it was fine for him to use the map if Guinsoo would credit him. Guinsoo refused and continued updating it.

He spent about a year updating and expanding the map, until about a month after WoW came out when he decided he'd rather play WoW, and simply disappeared from the community without a word while the map was in beta for a huge new version. IceFrog ended up picking it up, and has been developing it for the last 6.5 years. IceFrog removed the horrible bugs that had plagued Guinsoo's tenure, and made specific heroes either unplayable or game breakingly powerful, and after about a year and a half of IceFrog developing the map it started to see major tournament play for the first time.

tl;dr: Guinsoo stole the map, acted like a child about it, and did very little for the game. IceFrog is the one responsible for modern DotA.

[thegurullamen]

They stomp every bit of competition into the ground without mercy, though. Examples: Tf2 beta, DotA 2's announcement, what happened with Monday Night Combat, Steam Sales, shutting down indie developers that try to muscle into their territory, and so on. Good buisiness practice, but still pretty brutal.

I don't know about this. They're competitive, sure, but anti-indie? They snatch up indie talent where they can find it (DotA2 for example) which translates into sales for them. Hardly philanthropist of them, but it's not "ruthless" either.

As for "stealing" DotA, Blizzard sat on the thing for well over seven years and only towards the end did they even start patching the game so that it would stop inconveniencing the immensely popular mod. Not once did they approach Pendragon, IceFrog or Guinsoo in any professional way besides an occasional nod to the modding community as a selling point of the franchise. They had their chance to approach one of the three for a job or a creative offer of some sort, but they didn't. The opportunity was lost, and it was a big one as the MoBA market now shows.

As for why Valve's being treated differently than if this were done by EA or Activision? My take is corporate culture. Valve supports creativity and so people have enough faith in them/their approach that they do not assume this is a desperate money grab or soulless, cynical outreach to a niche community, which is what ActivEA tend to do, at least in the eyes of the Internet. Giving IceFrog a creative lead position (which seems like more than an empty title for the marketing campaign, also something that reeks of ActivEA shenanigans), which enhances their credibility with the fanbase.

TL;DR: People trust Valve because they at least pay some respect to the original fanbase.

[toasty]

That.. isn't a counter. There are plenty of ways a lane could go against you beyond the other player being bad. And most people don't constantly queue with 3-4 others, so.. whether you think they should or not, it matters. Or it would in this case, if who you got teamed with was the main decider on what happens in your lane.
Similar to Tono, I enjoy the extra lane control options it gives me.

I realize that its not "fun" to have noobs on your team. Believe me, I realize. I've never done much with the minion AI abuse in DotA (basic "minion blocking" and "minion pulling" thats about it), but I mean, to be fair, it has been my experience in LoL that Solo Queue is a stupid idea and I'd ask to remove it from the game if that was at all realistic. Solo Queue is the equivalent of taking a bunch of "equally skilled" soccer players from a Soccer League and then making them play on random teams, ignoring the fact that half the teams hate the other half and giving no regard to the fact that you just put 3 goalies on the same team. It doesn't really make sense.

Beyond that, yeah, I guess you're right. There is something nice about being able to pull minions around willy nilly.

Just because you only have one active skill doesn't mean you don't have to know when to use it. If anything, it means you need to be even more aware of when, where, and how you use that particular skill.

I don't buy that argument. You have to be careful with that ability, but the hero with 4 abilities needs to be just as careful. 1 mistake in a combo can and often does mean the difference between an insta-gib and a hero escaping.

But the claim was never that there were no differences in those champions. It was simply- as was claimed (and true) for heroes in DotA - that there are several characters who either are or appear to be on some level similar, including even having very similar spells in some of the cases.

Because in a game of 80 champions all 80 will be 100% unique and also totally balanced.

To be less sarcastic, yeah, that's true I guess. But I think its rather silly to compare xin zhao to Jarvan in terms of team comp and usage. Yes, technically they are both Tanky DPS, just the same as technically Annie and Fiddle are both Burst Mages. But the reality is they play differently and are used for different reasons (though to be honest I'd never pick Xin over Jarvan, just because I think Xin is bad).

One thing I would like to be clear on here is that I'm not really trying to be rude here or anything. I think we both have some interesting points.

[Shovah]

I don't buy that argument. You have to be careful with that ability, but the hero with 4 abilities needs to be just as careful. 1 mistake in a combo can and often does mean the difference between an insta-gib and a hero escaping.

That's exactly the point I was trying to get across though - just as careful. Having only one active skill doesn't make a character boring or easy to play (if done right, at least). Just different.

Because in a game of 80 champions all 80 will be 100% unique and also totally balanced.

To be less sarcastic, yeah, that's true I guess. But I think its rather silly to compare xin zhao to Jarvan in terms of team comp and usage. Yes, technically they are both Tanky DPS, just the same as technically Annie and Fiddle are both Burst Mages. But the reality is they play differently and are used for different reasons (though to be honest I'd never pick Xin over Jarvan, just because I think Xin is bad).

I'll need to rephrase your points more-often. You tend to reply to then better than I can .
Again, that's basically what I was saying. The original point had been that so many DotA characters were same-y, with skills such as ones that do damage+a stun.
Having similarities doesn't make characters the same, and even among characters with stuns, their other skills and such make them completely and utterly different. You'll have pushers, gankers, initiators, supporters, and so on - and even within those roles, you'll have variety. Even though many of them may share a similar skill.

One thing I would like to be clear on here is that I'm not really trying to be rude here or anything. I think we both have some interesting points.

Of course ^_^.
If I didn't find this interesting, I wouldn't be here. I just tend to get involved in whatever I'm discussing and it can come across a little.. harshly.
No rudeness intended.

[Keld Denar]

Lets all stop arguing and pump some Basshunter FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

Vi sitar har i venten, och spilar lita DotA!

[Inhuman Bot]

To be less sarcastic, yeah, that's true I guess. But I think its rather silly to compare xin zhao to Jarvan in terms of team comp and usage. Yes, technically they are both Tanky DPS, just the same as technically Annie and Fiddle are both Burst Mages. But the reality is they play differently and are used for different reasons (though to be honest I'd never pick Xin over Jarvan, just because I think Xin is bad).

If.. If this is what you think, I'm not sure what anyone can tell you.

[Shovah]

Lets all stop arguing and pump some Basshunter FOR GREAT JUSTICE!

Vi sitar har i venten, och spilar lita DotA!

I approve of this message. Well played, good sir.

[Grif]

I will be cut if Icefrog didn't implement hats.

Very cut.

(Now imagining Modest Piles of Hat being stacked on a Morphling. Or Balanar for that matter. Awesome.)

[Tono]

Man, I really hope there are steam acheivements for this game. 'Using Techies, kill an enemy that is currently holding an Eye of True Sight.' 'Use blink dagger over 500 times,' etc. I could see it being a lot of fun.

[Spartacus]

If.. If this is what you think, I'm not sure what anyone can tell you.

What exactly are you referring to? Many things were mentioned in that bit you quoted.

[Volatar]

Even if this game ships with a dark and foreboding feel to it, this is Valve we are talking about. It won't stay that way for long.

[Joran]

Guinsoo's claim to the game is laughable.
...
tl;dr: Guinsoo stole the map, acted like a child about it, and did very little for the game. IceFrog is the one responsible for modern DotA.

Guinsoo only takes credit for DotA All-Stars and in particular claims versions 2.0 to 6.01.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...nts.php?page=5

The key thing is that DotA cannot be claimed by any one person, even someone as key as IceFrog. It was a collaborative project done as a labor of love by people in the community.

[deuxhero]

I assuming that "cloth simulation" means "cape physics" and such? Has this ever been specified?

[Suedars]

Guinsoo only takes credit for DotA All-Stars and in particular claims versions 2.0 to 6.01.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/featur...nts.php?page=5

The key thing is that DotA cannot be claimed by any one person, even someone as key as IceFrog. It was a collaborative project done as a labor of love by people in the community.

And DotA All-stars 2.0 was largely lifted from someone else's beta test, which he refused to acknowledge. Plus a number of the heroes he claims as his in that list (Tiny, PL, Furion), were taken from other people's versions. Guinsoo's entire "DotA was a community project" claim is incredibly disingenuous, and seems to be little more than an attempt to screw over Valve (who now happen to be his competitors). During his time working on the map he showed nothing but contempt for the community that had worked on DotA before him.

Besides, the "community" phase of DotA lasted its first year, before the game had really caught on. IceFrog has been working on it for the last 6.5 years, and it's thrived and become a booming esport during that time. I'd say IceFrog's claim to the map trumps that of the nebulous "community" Guinsoo suddenly cares so much about.

[Inhuman Bot]

Even if this game ships with a dark and foreboding feel to it, this is Valve we are talking about. It won't stay that way for long.

Ever play Half-Life?

Again, the game has heroes such as Captain CoCo (Better known as Kunkka), Puck! the fairy dragon, Clockwerk Goblin, a panda who's primary ability is rolling around really fast, and so on. Dark and Foreboding isn't exactly the right term.

[Joran]

And DotA All-stars 2.0 was largely lifted from someone else's beta test, which he refused to acknowledge. Plus a number of the heroes he claims as his in that list (Tiny, PL, Furion), were taken from other people's versions. Guinsoo's entire "DotA was a community project" claim is incredibly disingenuous, and seems to be little more than an attempt to screw over Valve (who now happen to be his competitors). During his time working on the map he showed nothing but contempt for the community that had worked on DotA before him.

Besides, the "community" phase of DotA lasted its first year, before the game had really caught on. IceFrog has been working on it for the last 6.5 years, and it's thrived and become a booming esport during that time. I'd say IceFrog's claim to the map trumps that of the nebulous "community" Guinsoo suddenly cares so much about.

Got any citations for that? From the official DotA page, IceFrog (or whoever wrote the FAQ) gives credit to Eul, Meian, Guinsoo, and Neichus.

Eul is acknowledged as the creator and founder of DotA, but I assume it's much changed from when he started it.

[potatocubed]

During his time working on the map he showed nothing but contempt for the community that had worked on DotA before him.

Given my experience with the DotA and LoL 'communities', I'd say that contempt is the right and proper emotion to feel.

Although I'd accept despair or loathing.

[Winterwind]

Well, I was going to reply to all those counter-arguments - concede some, dispute others - but it looks much like the thread has moved on, and most people seem to prefer to let the discussion rest. So I guess I'll be withdrawing from this thread instead.

[Mx.Silver]

What? No. Valve is an incredibly ruthless and cuthroat company.

I know, but this is the first incidence of such that's getting real attention (hence the 'significant' part).

[Inhuman Bot]

I know, but this is the first incidence of such that's getting real attention (hence the 'significant' part).

I think Fortress Forever got a reasonable amount of attention.

Regardless, I hope the release date isn't too far off after the tournament though I doubt it will be. With the death of HoN and LoL's absurd level of boring, passive play, I've managed to find something about the genre I dislike more then the community.

[toasty]

That's exactly the point I was trying to get across though - just as careful. Having only one active skill doesn't make a character boring or easy to play (if done right, at least). Just different.

I'm not sure I understand. A hero like Skeleton has 1 non-skill shot ability. Use that ability and then auto attack. That's all he does. Yes, he must use the ability at the right time, but... so what? Compare that to a hero with a 4 abilities that must be used in the correct order, one or two of which are spell shots. This hero has it a lot harder in terms of when and where to place spells.

If.. If this is what you think, I'm not sure what anyone can tell you.

They can tell me that I'm a smart man and should continue to do theorycrafting for my team of course. Now please, stop harassing me. (Why are you harassing me? Because, like I said, Xin Zhao is 100% different than Jarvan. Ask ANYONE I play with: efdf, arb, yocham, faulty, sirro, zach, arcanoi. All of those guys? Good players. Especially efdf. They'll all agree with me. The fact that Xin Zhao is "tanky dps" means nothing. In lane, in teamfights, in jungle (well maybe not in jungle...) he's completely different than Jarvan)

[Dogmantra]

Ask ANYONE I play with: ... All of those guys? Good players.

I see how it is toasty ;_;

[Inhuman Bot]

Now please, stop harassing me. (Why are you harassing me?

I think you're just paranoid. You keep calling me out.


QUOTE=toasty;11558764]Ask ANYONE I play with: efdf, arb, yocham, faulty, sirro, zach, arcanoi. All of those guys? Good players. Especially efdf. They'll all agree with me. The fact that Xin Zhao is "tanky dps" means nothing. In lane, in teamfights, in jungle (well maybe not in jungle...) he's completely different than Jarvan)[/QUOTE]

I could, or I could ask other good players. Jarvan and Xin are similar. They dive in (Audacious Charge Vs Banner + Dragon Strike) AoE (Aegis or whatever it's called Vs Crescent Sweep) and hit things.

[Volatar]

Ever play Half-Life?

That was before the Hatocalypse

[toasty]

I see how it is toasty ;_;

I was specifically mentioning them cuz we're all in a clan. You're a good player too.

I could, or I could ask other good players. Jarvan and Xin are similar. They dive in (Audacious Charge Vs Banner + Dragon Strike) AoE (Aegis or whatever it's called Vs Crescent Sweep) and hit things.

... I would continue to argue with you if I felt that it was worth talking about. But this is the DotA2 thread, not the LoL thread. Suffice to say, you've managed to twist things in such a way that it looks like you're right, but you're wrong. That might be what it looks like is gonna happen, but the theorycrafting behind these two heroes is completely different.