Melee rogue frailty.

[Pigkappa]

Useless party configuration:

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I'm playing in a level 11 campaign with low/medium optimization. The party is currently 1 Druid (with the UA variant to be less OP), 2 Clerics (I am one of them; no DMM, no rules abuse, many good spells are banned), 1 Wizard (quite awful; the player is new to d&d), 1 Frenzied Berseker (no Pounce, no Leap Attack).

Even if I have good HPs and good saves, I'm often close to death. I'm usually the one fighting with the Frenzied Berseker when necessary, since I've got more HPs than the other cleric. Last time I reached 100 wounds out of 103 HPs.

As a new character, I'd like to play a melee rogue since I've never played one. The quite obvious combo would be Rogue/Swashbuckler and the DM has approved it.

However, I can't see how to survive in melee with such a character. Since it is quite MAD (Dex is necessary, possibly Cha and Int), I won't have very high HPs. I would also have not really high AC (likely +6 Dex, +1 Size, +6 enchanted Armor, +1 deviation, +1 natural armor = 25, lower than the Druid and Cleric), and I would be attacked quite often since I'd have to be in melee dealing a lot of damage. The saves are quite awful too. Will save in particular.

How could such a rogue survive for a long time? We've experienced several deaths already with characters tougher than that.

[Runestar]

Easiest answer is ask the wizard to specialise in battlefield control and disable/debuff the heck out of your foes. For example, a blinded foe (via glitterdust) has a 50% miss chance against you, and you can SA him with impunity. Or if he is nauseated/grappled/whatever, he can't even attack at all!

[Feytalist]

Like aforementioned, but rather with wands of blur/blink/displacement/mirror image/etc. Expensive but better than nothing. Hit negation is usually better than straight up armour.

[Pigkappa]

Yeah but using 1 standard action in each fight to activate them doesn't sound too good either :(.

Also, level 3 wand = 750 * 3 * 5 gp > 10k gp. Really expensive.

[JKTrickster]

You should look into the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel - it'll really help make Rogue/Swashbuckler work really well.

As for defenses, that's what you spend gold on. I know it kind of sucks, but that's how I would do it. A ring of blinking right?

Alternatively get the Wizard/Cleric/Druid to buff you up - you buy them Pearls of Power of course

[Darrin]

How could such a rogue survive for a long time? We've experienced several deaths already with characters tougher than that.

I'd focus on Miss Chance. Check out Person_Man's Adept of Darkness, maybe combined with At Home in the Deep feat, Devil's Sight invocation, or the Baator domain power.

Smoking weapon (Lords of Darkness) offers continuous concealment for about 8300 GP (and a save vs. nausea effect if you want to get into grappling).

There's also the old Ring of Blinking/Pierce Magical Concealment combo. Expensive and costs 3 feats, but very nifty.

Incarnum is definitely worth a look. Fellmist Robe is kinda meh but the Umbral Disciple PrC's Embrace the Shadow (Su) is awesomesauce on toast: 20%/30%/40% concealment with a HiPS cherry on top.

For your Will save:

First, see if the Detached trait (UA, +1 Will save/-1 Ref save) is available.

Check out the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel) to get Iron Will via GP. Add Cumbrous Will (Savage Species) for an additional +6 to all your Will saves and immunity to fear (class feature, template, or Planar Touchstone/Dream domain power) to ignore the shaken effect.

Consider putting the Mindarmor enhancement (3000 GP, MIC) and a Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking (4000 GP, MIC) on a +1 mithral chainshirt or breastplate.

[koscum]

Take a two level dip in Swordsage (lvl5 and lvl11 should do nicely) and get Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body to use Concentration (max it!) check as Will and Fort save respectively. Get Child of Shadow as defensive stance (if your UMD is high enough and/or your party has access to Blur/Displacement, you can skip this one) and Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades as offensive stance (first one gives you +2d6 SA, while the second one grants you flaking whenever there's an ally near your opponent who's also threatening it). Suggested manoeuvres: Emerald Razor (resolve attack as melee touch), Cloak of Deception (Greater Invisibility until the end of your turn) and Shadow Blade (roll 2d20, choose one).

[Thespianus]

IMHO:

Cha and Int is not necessary to boost for a Melee Rogue, even though they're not dump stats either.

Focus on Dex and Con, you will need it. Get a +1 modifier in Int and Cha if you can, but go nuts for Dex and Con. Focus on Int over Cha if you aim for Knowledge Devotion (which is *awesome*), Focus on Cha over Int if you go for UMD.

Remember that TWF might not be necessary (Or at least not ITWF and GTWF), get Craven for great Sneak Attack boosts.

Or, as I'm sure someone will tell you: Look into Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter. ;)

[Pigkappa]

Uhm, well, I wasn't really complete in the description of our party.

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB for Rogue, CW for Swashbuckler, CS for Daring Outlaw) for classes/feats. Characters requiring our DM a lot of booksearching aren't usually well considered. So adding a class from ToB, something from Drow of the Underdark, something from Incarnum and a feat from Complete Champion would surely mean the character gets banned.

I realize this is quite necessary to be decent with respect to the Druid and Cleric who are T1 even if their players don't optimize them (well, actually the Druid's one does that just as much as is necessary to be the most effective of the party without getting his character banned), but it's still a problem I can't ignore.


(Cha and Int are nice since the Swashbuckler's class features rely on them)

[Thespianus]

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB, CW, CS) for classes/feats.

Ouch. But still, you get the Daring Outlaw-goodness, so that ain't all bad.

Skip Craven and Knowledge Devotion, focus on a Rogue 4/Swashbuckler X-build. The TWF-chain might be useful all the way, and spend skill ranks on UMD.

(Cha and Int are nice since the Swashbuckler's class features rely on them)

Yes, they are nice, but not as vital as Dex and Con. The Int-to-Damage won't matter much, for example, since you will be focusing on Sneak Attacks anyway.

[Pigkappa]

I think I'll try to have Whisper Gnomes accepted. The character will still be much worse than the Druid or Cleric anyway.

It's so sad that I will spend 2 feats for TWF and will still have as many attacks as the Frenzied Berseker >:(. And deal much less damage than he does. At least I won't try to kill any party members.

[faceroll]

Take a two level dip in Swordsage (lvl5 and lvl11 should do nicely) and get Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body to use Concentration (max it!) check as Will and Fort save respectively. Get Child of Shadow as defensive stance (if your UMD is high enough and/or your party has access to Blur/Displacement, you can skip this one) and Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades as offensive stance (first one gives you +2d6 SA, while the second one grants you flaking whenever there's an ally near your opponent who's also threatening it). Suggested manoeuvres: Emerald Razor (resolve attack as melee touch), Cloak of Deception (Greater Invisibility until the end of your turn) and Shadow Blade (roll 2d20, choose one).

Was going to suggest something similar, but to pick up shadow jaunt stuff, to get sick mobility.

[Fouredged Sword]

Splash meldshaper. There is a great PRC in magic of incarnum that allows you to put essence into a class feature and get not bad miss chances, as well as grant HIPS.

[Pigkappa]

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB for Rogue, CW for Swashbuckler, CS for Daring Outlaw) for classes/feats. Characters requiring our DM a lot of booksearching aren't usually well considered. So adding a class from ToB, something from Drow of the Underdark, something from Incarnum and a feat from Complete Champion would surely mean the character gets banned.

Also, HiPS makes definitely no sense and I would never consider taking it. I'm not going to abuse Hide, I'm not even going to have full ranks in it.

[Thespianus]

It's so sad that I will spend 2 feats for TWF and will still have as many attacks as the Frenzied Berseker >:(. And deal much less damage than he does. At least I won't try to kill any party members.

Welcome to Melee Hell. It sure is hard to do varied and effective Melee in 3.5, especially without Tome of Battle. A vast number of splatbooks have made it better, but if you are also limited to a small number of books, it gets a LOT worse.

[Pigkappa]

Welcome to Melee Hell. It sure is hard to do varied and effective Melee in 3.5, especially without Tome of Battle. A vast number of splatbooks have made it better, but if you are also limited to a small number of books, it gets a LOT worse.

=(

I'm going to post the character once I'm done. The only thing that's still troubling me is the Will save (actually +5; 3 base and 2 from the mantle of resistance), though the Mind Armor helps.

[Pigkappa]

Still looking for a feat:



Rogue4/Swashbuckler7, Whisper Gnome

Stats (28 point buy, these includes level ups and magic items):
Str 8
Dex 24
Con 18
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10

Feats:
Daring Outlaw
TWF and improved TWF
1 missing feat (likely Iron Will)

Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Easy Escape, Escape Attack, Quick Escape, Back on your feet.

Relevant items:
Mithral studded leather +3, Mind Armor
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Appropriate items to gain +4 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2Con, +2 saving throw
Wand of Mirror Image
Kurki +1
Punching dagger +1

I assume the wizard will always cast GMW on my weapons (though I doubt it), and the Cleric will use Heroes' Feast.

AC: 26 (28 with Dodge)
Attacks: +19/+19/+14/+14, all dealing 1d3+4 damage (6d6 sneak attack).
Saves: +12/+17/+5 (Will save is +10 with Mind Armor)

Relevant skills: Escape Artist +21, Hide +25, Move Silently +21, Search+17, Tumble +21, UMD +14, a few ranks are scattered everywhere.

I'm the first one using skill tricks. This character is by far the one who uses the highest number of books in the party. The last feat should possibly be from a common source (PHB possibly).

[Urpriest]

Swashbucklers don't use Cha.

[Pigkappa]

It's not like Cha 10 is really high anyway... I could make it 8 but I'm the only one with ranks in Diplomacy and UMD in the party.

[hex0]

You could work in Ranger 3 in to get free Endurance and TWF. Use Endurance to get Steadfast Determination which stops you from auto-failing on a 1 on Fort saves and use your CON instead of WIS to will.

Rogue 4/Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 4

Feats: TWF (bonus), Endurance (bonus), Weapon Finesse (bonus), Daring Outlaw, Steadfast Determination, Additional Favored Class, Improved TWF.

Base Saves are +9/+7/+3 and you have a little more hit points, skills, and options.

[Pigkappa]

This way I lose 2 dodge AC, Acrobatic Charge, and I'm not going to have Improved Flanking in 1 level. I don't know if it's worth it.

We sum saves as fractions, so the Fort save wouldn't be so high. This is done to discourage people taking lots of classes to end up with huge saves.

[Coidzor]

No grease, eh?

What about marbles? I believe those are Dungeonscape material.

Both of those will take your frenzied berserker out without you guys actually having to eat his melee attacks.

[Thespianus]

Still looking for a feat:

(....)
1 missing feat (likely Iron Will)

Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Easy Escape, Escape Attack, Quick Escape, Back on your feet.

If I can be so bold to suggest Quick Draw (PHB) as your feat of choice, then maybe the Skill Trick "Hidden Blade" can be of use? It allows you to draw a concealed weapon that you've hidden with Sleight of Hand and gain a Sneak Attack on the attack. Good for those pesky Standard Action-only situations or when you can't get a Sneak Attack in otherwise.

[Gwendol]

Good suggestion. Also, don't forget that ranger gives you martial weapon proficiencies, which you can use to get a good bow.

[Gnaeus]

Relevant items:
Mithral studded leather +3, Mind Armor
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Appropriate items to gain +4 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2Con, +2 saving throw
Wand of Mirror Image
Kurki +1
Punching dagger +1

I assume the wizard will always cast GMW on my weapons (though I doubt it), and the Cleric will use Heroes' Feast.

AC: 26 (28 with Dodge)

It seems to me that you are spending quite a lot of money on armor, to get an armor class that isn't actually high enough to keep relevant monsters from hitting you. If it were me, I would downgrade the armor to Leather +1 (with mindarmor) drop the ring and the amulet and maybe 2 points of dex, and pick up a Cloak of Displacement for a 20% miss chance. Alternately, downgrade the armor and buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

You have reached the level where armor class almost has to be heavily optimized to be useful at all.

[Pigkappa]

It seems to me that you are spending quite a lot of money on armor, to get an armor class that isn't actually high enough to keep relevant monsters from hitting you. If it were me, I would downgrade the armor to Leather +1 (with mindarmor) drop the ring and the amulet and maybe 2 points of dex, and pick up a Cloak of Displacement for a 20% miss chance. Alternately, downgrade the armor and buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

You have reached the level where armor class almost has to be heavily optimized to be useful at all.

Well, losing 4 points of AC (losing 2 points of Dex is out of question) is just as having that 20% miss chance, but much cheaper.

[Gnaeus]

Well, losing 4 points of AC (losing 2 points of Dex is out of question) is just as having that 20% miss chance, but much cheaper.

But much less effective. Melee threats will reach the point where they can hit your AC on a 2 anyway. Things with touch attacks (rays from enemy casters, many undead, etc) can ignore your armor and natural armor, but not a flat miss chance. The wand of Greater Invisibility is even better, unless you fight lots of foes with True Seeing.

But do what you want. I play in mid-high op campaigns, where at level 12 (where we are now) if your AC isn't in the mid-high 30s, it may as well be 14. YMMV.

[Pigkappa]

Well anyway, that's 24000 gp for a single item. It takes the same slot of the Resistance item (our DM doesn't approve putting the resistance bonus on another slot as the MIC does, because the Cloak slot is effectively much more common).

28 AC is decent for my group (it's harder to have it much higher with no cheese or huge investment) and we've never met monsters with more than +25 to hit. We're not mid-high optimization as I said, or we would have several casters able to create magic items to pay them at 50% their price and break WBL, for example.

I will consider the Displacement Cloak if we happen to earn a lot of money, however.

[Philistine]

I'm AFB, but IIRC you have to use a base item that's primarily metal in order to gain any benefit from mithral - studded leather wouldn't qualify. If your DM hates splat-diving as much as it seems, that leaves padded armor as your best bet to capitalize on your investment in Dex.

Apart from that... Opponents with +25 AB are hitting your 28 AC on a 3 or better - trading 4 points of AC for a flat 20% miss chance would be pure upgrade. Next, see about buying your cleric buddy a Pearl of Power and having him cast Magic Vestment on you each morning to keep the cost of armor down. I'd also suggest you re-look at Fractional Saves in UA/the SRD, because you do get the +2 for a strong save upon taking your first level in a new class, even if you already got it from a previous class. (Yes, really - it's even shown in the example.) But mostly, your first instinct was right: if your table is pummelling melee clerics to within an inch of their lives, a rogue (even a mostly-swashbuckler Daring Outlaw) is likely going to be converted to a fine pink mist in short order.

And that brings up the larger issue, namely that it sounds like your DM has "Killing PCs" as a primary goal. If that's the case, no amount of optimization can help you: you just need to decide whether or not that's how you want to play and make whatever adjustments then become necessary.

[ericgrau]

A masterwork buckler has no nonproficiency penalty, so you can use it. Plus now you only need one magic weapon and you don't have the -2 to hit, so your damage doesn't actually go down much.

With +6 dex and +1 size, +4 mithril chain shirt, +1 from buckler you're at 22 AC right off the bat before magic. Next you add +2 armor (4k), +2 shield (4k), +1 ring of protection (2k), +1 amulet of natural armor (2k) to get 6 more AC. Now you're at a respectable 28 AC for only 12k in magic. Get boots of speed for 10 rounds of haste per day and you're at a respectable 29 AC with tons of cash leftover to put into offense or a little more AC if you want. Plus you have an extra attack, better chance of hitting, and +2d6 energy damage on your weapon instead of +1d6. You'll never miss two weapon fighting.

As pointed out miss chance items are way too expensive at this level. Wait until 15ish. Checking the attack bonus of some CR 9 monsters (4 CR 9 = EL 13 encounter = "difficult"), I found +23, +13, +19, +14, +17, +15, +14, +20, +18, and less on secondary attacks. Most of the time you have much better than 50% miss chance from AC. A 20% item costs 20k vs. the 12k I mentioned. Around level 15ish you might want to get your miss chance from a ring of blinking for easy sneak attacks if you can't beg the wizard for greater invisibility every fight. Then you might want to consider TWF, but with the extra weapon cost (or weaker weapons) and attack roll penalty even at that level it's not necessarily the greatest idea. ITWF is ok after that but GTWF probably isn't even worth the feat. Extra attacks with no penalty (or even a bonus) like haste are uber-nice, but extra attacks with attack roll penalties means your actual number of hits might not be all that hot.

I tend to see about an equal number of "what kind of rogue should I play?" => "go TWF" threads and "help my rogue is dying/frail" threads. Personally I'm considering a greater invisible pixie rogue archer for an upcoming campaign, since pathfinder beefed up the already super-good pixie.