The Dualists (3.5 Base Class)

[Morph Bark]

Okay, that's worded awkwardly, but i think you get the idea...

You mean that when you enter the class, the partner gains the ability to take levels in other classes and immediately also must take a level in another class?

[Talya]

You mean that when you enter the class, the partner gains the ability to take levels in other classes and immediately also must take a level in another class?

An example progression would be like this:
Level) ClassA / ClassB
1) Dualist 1 / Dualist 1
2) Dualist 2 / Dualist 2
3) Dualist 3 / Dualist 3
4) Dualist 4 / Dualist 4

5) Warblade 1 / Secondary Dualist 1 (The first dualist took a level of warblade, so the second had to take the really plain Secondary Dualist PrC)
6) Dualist 5 / Dualist 5 (They wanted another dualist level, I guess)
7) Secondary Dualist 1 / Warblade 1 (The first dualist could NOT take another level of warblade now, or any other class ever gain UNTIL his secondary dualist level equalled his partner's. So his partner also multiclassed into Warblade.)
8) Warblade 2 / Secondary Dualist 2
9) Secondary Dualist 2 / Warblade 2
10) Dualist 6 / Dualist 6

so by level 10, in this example, both partners have Dualist 6, Warblade 2, and secondary dualist 2. The "Secondary Dualist" is a mostly useless prc specifically designed to limit the multiclassing of the dualist.

It's much simpler in my head than I can easily explain, for some reason.

My main issue with multiclassing this as it currently stands, is if you take more than 2 levels in another class other than Dualist, another player can have a better Cohort than you'll have a Dualist partner. Your partner always needs to advance in some way, even if you multiclass.

[Kellus]

A +5 weapon (or +2 speed weapon)
+5 bracers of Armor
+5 Ring of Protection
+5 Amulet of Natural Armor
+5 Cloak of Resistance
+6 Gloves of Dexterity
+6 Belt of Giant Strength
Luckstone
Manual of Quickness in Action +2
Winged Boots
Ring of Mind Shielding
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone (+1 Insight to AC)

I just want to point out that wealth scales exponentially with level. Of course you have enough wealth at level 20 to buy two sets of mediocre gear. But the game isn't actually played at level 20.

At 10th level you have 49,000 gp, which is enough for (buying everything separately and using the same list as Realms of Chaos):

• Two +2 weapons (16,000 gp)
• He doesn't actually get bracers of armour because it provides an armour bonus to AC, which is only useful if he has it in really high numbers (which are really expensive). Otherwise it's more cost-effective to just buy normal armor.
• Instead, he buys two +2 suits of armour (8,000 gp)
• Two Rings of Protection +1 (4,000 gp)
• Two Amulets of Natural Armour +1 (4,000 gp)
• Two Cloaks of Resistance +2 (8,000 gp)
• Two Gloves of Dexterity +2 (8,000 gp)
• Oops, out of money. 1,000 gp left for s&g

The point is that at mid-levels, where the game actually takes place, not only do you have significantly lower enchantments on most of your number treadmill items (I mean, how many actual melee fighters use a +2 weapon at 10th level) than most people, but you also have less equipment period because you need to buy everything for two people.

Your equipment is significantly worse than other people, and there is also significantly less OF it. Add this to a weak BAB, and they won't be hitting the broad side of a barn. You can talk about how they get double the attack rolls, but go ask the monk how much a lot of attack rolls are worth when their to-hit is in the toilet.

They will not be able to keep up, and god help any dualists that want to get into two-weapon fighting (you mean I need to buy four magic weapons?).

[Circle of Life]

Your equipment is significantly worse than other people, and there is also significantly less OF it. Add this to a weak BAB, and they won't be hitting the broad side of a barn. You can talk about how they get double the attack rolls, but go ask the monk how much a lot of attack rolls are worth when their to-hit is in the toilet.

That's a rather large bit of hyperbole there. The class has numerous built in ways to ensure respectable chances to hit (flat bonuses to hit, double flanking, flat-footedness, etc).

That said, while my earlier comment might have been taken for nixing the Competetive Spirit idea altogether, I actually meant it more as "Kellus's idea was pretty awesome, just needs some slight number tweaks as far as I can tell".

[Kellus]

That's a rather large bit of hyperbole there. The class has numerous built in ways to ensure respectable chances to hit (flat bonuses to hit, double flanking, flat-footedness, etc).

That said, while my earlier comment might have been taken for nixing the Competetive Spirit idea altogether, I actually meant it more as "Kellus's idea was pretty awesome, just needs some slight number tweaks as far as I can tell".

Yeah, that was a little bit of an exaggeration. But seriously, they're going to be spending so much of their money just trying to keep up to date. It kind of sucks that they won't be able to afford fun luxury items like everybody else, and have to buy second-rate stuff besides.

That said, while my earlier comment might have been taken for nixing the Competetive Spirit class idea altogether, I actually meant it more as "Kellus's idea was this class is pretty awesome, just needs some slight number tweaks as far as I can tell".

[Talya]

The bit about "expecting the dualist to outfit his partner from their own share" is actually unnecessary. That's not for the class-description to decide. What is for the class description to decide is to state that the dualist's partner does not add to the party's wealth...which is rather obvious since neither do more characters, but that's not the point. Wealth is decided by the encounters you face. It is up to the party how they will distribute what they receive, not the class description, not even the DM.

With the wealth rules as stated in this class, the "Ancestral Relic" feat would be an almost must-have, as it ends up costing half the normal amount to enchant it. And it would be perfectly fair that they would both benefit from it by each having one.

Back on Multiclassing: How about this for a multiclassing rule?
If the dualist multiclasses, his dualist partner does not have as much flexibility in how she multiclasses. She also cannot take the dualist class for the level in which her partner multiclasses. She is, instead, limited to one of the following multiclassing options, at her choice:
Any NPC class
Racial Hit Die
Racial Paragon Class (ONLY if her partner is also taking this class at this level)
<possible other classes with DM approval?>

Afterward, perhaps add feats like "Ascetic Dualists" (monk), "Daring Dualists" (swashbuckler), "Pair of Thugs" (rogue), and "Wild Dualists" (ranger) that allow both to multiclass into another class at the same time (and perhaps stack a couple class features).

[Amechra]

Say, take a look at Dralnu's Indigo Trickster; Arcane Fission (or some variant) would work WONDERS for this class.

[Talya]

Say, take a look at Dralnu's Indigo Trickster; Arcane Fission (or some variant) would work WONDERS for this class.

The what, now?

[Amechra]

Arcane Fission acts thusly:

-You pick up a magical weapon.
-A phantom copy of that weapon appears in your other hand. It is completely identical, but vanishes as soon as it leaves your hands.

Now, you make something like that that replicates equipment between Dualists...

[Hazzardevil]

I just had an idea.

You could give an ability to work with other Dualists, so you could have 2 players playing 4 dualists and so on.
Then, supposing you had an entire party of 6 players. (thus 12 dualists)
all together, they then all gain their bonuses off each other, so they all gain a massive flanking bonus if they all flank the same person.
That would be fun.

[Talya]

I'm really hoping Circle of Life hasn't abandoned this thread, he hasn't posted here in a while. I really, really love this class idea.

[Circle of Life]

I haven't. I'm currently running a playtest of the Dualists to see what, if anything, should be added or removed from the class.

[Soliloquy]

Some say that foes are most dangerous when backed into a corner. Not so for Dualists, who are at their deadliest when pressed back to back with their partner.

Is this a typo, or do you mean rather than cornered, it's when they are surrounded?

[KotserB]

First of all, I'd like to say that i absolutely love this class as I read through the abilities; I'm imagining myself playing these dualists shouting all kinds of cool things as I use the Tandem Tactics and several other abilities.
This class makes it really easy to 'live' the dualists and I absolutely love it.

I also have a question: is it worth it to take Combat Reflexes (level 1), Vexing Flanker (level 1), Two-Weapon Fighting (level 3), Martial Study (Cloak of Deception, level 6) and Martial Stance (Island of Blades, level 6) (We're allowed one flaw)? (Yes I like to use a lot of ((()) whatever these are called in English)

I considered dipping into a Martial Adept class so that I won't have to bother with the feats. Drawbacks of this way are that only one duelist gets the martial stuff, while the other loses BAB, HP, saves etc.

Another option is: taking Adaptable Flanker at level 6, but then there's only one way your dualists can flank and use the parry stuff.

OR is there some weird-ass way to exploit reach weapons so you can both flank and parry things (From the top of my head there was something like this: with a reach weapon you threaten squares 10 ft. away from you, but not squares adjacent to you, given that you've got the reach of a human, half-orc etc.)

Uhm... if any other ideas come to mind while reading this please post them! :D

AWESOME WORK!

:EDIT:

I forgot to say, we can only use classes from here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245701
high tier 3 and everything thats worse then that and we can only multiclass once...