Alignments of the stick

[SowZ]

In fairness, SinsI's claim is that Belkar has been acting Chaotic Neutral "since the removal of Mark of Justice", which as far as I can recall leaves only one or two sadistic killings to explain away. And SinsI has proven quite willing to explain away a lot of Belkar's nasty behavior.

Occasional sadistic killings are not compatible with a neutral alignment. Chaotic neutral people cannot torture people to death without good motivation, even if they only do it occasionally. Even a serial killer might kill someone once every year or few years.

[Winter]

Chaotic neutral people cannot torture people to death without good motivation,

I think there never is a really good motivation to torture someone to death. If you think it is a good motivation (or good cause) you are very likely already on your way to doing evil.

Evil isn't becoming acceptable because you think you're going good. This pretty usually either leads to Falling or already has.

[SowZ]

I think there never is a really good motivation to torture someone to death. If you think it is a good motivation (or good cause) you are very likely already on your way to doing evil.

Evil isn't becoming acceptable because you think you're going good. This pretty usually either leads to Falling or already has.

Sure, but an otherwise good or neutral person may torture someone on rare occassions in a ticking time bomb scenario, even if the act itself isn't good. You can't, however, occasionally painfully murder someone for fun and retain a neutral alignment if the spacing is great enough. And claiming, "Well, Belkar is down to maybe one torturous murder every week or two," is a ridiculous reason to argue an alignment shift.

[VanaGalen]

Hi! I'm new here but I hope I'm in the right place to ask alignment questions :)

I think the alignments of the OoTS gentlemen are pretty well determined, but I have doubts about Haley and V.

Before the Azure City story arc, Haley was considered chaotic goodish (probably close to the neutral zone on good-evil axis). However, ever since the battle and destruction of the city, she act in a very good and lawful way. Her leadership of the Resistance, the events of the Greysky City are certainly good and, I think, quite lawful. Apart from killing Crystal I don't recall her doing one single thing that might be considered chaotic. Moreover, she seems to have lost much of her greed and developed honesty and truthfulness - qualities that in themselves are rather lawful.
The way she behaves now, I would place her in neutral, not chaotic, good bin. Has Giant made a statement about her present alignment? And how would you rate her character now?


As for V, I'm completely lost. I suppose before the soul splice event (s)he used to be neutral good. But what happens after? There are many strips indicating hir falling into the very bottom of alignment pool:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html

Even some of hir actions before the splice aren't exactly what you would call good:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0596.html
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0213.html

And yet, (s)he doesn't fit well into any evil description - the whole splice deal was done as the only way to save hir family from terrible death. All the other things (s)he has done under the splice were, in fact, acts of good - though accomplished by evil means. Even the familicide spell was, at that time, considered by hir as freeing the world of many evil creatures and not simply bloodthirsty revenge.
Ever since the splice ended, V bitterly regretted hir actions. (S)he realised and admitted (s)he was wrong. True repentance of one's misdeeds doesn't scream "evil" to me. I think nobody would call the elf in the most recent strip evil.
So, I suppose there isn't much changed in the law-chaos department, but where is V on the good-evil axis at the moment?

[Emperordaniel]

*snip*

As of Comic #801, Vaarsuvius is True Neutral per word of Giant (and she was quite likely True Neutral prior to the soul splice too; we have the comic's word for that). Haley's likely still Chaotic Good as well - freeing dozens or hundreds of slaves is almost definitely against the laws of the Empire of Blood (thus both a Chaotic and a Good act), among other things.

And welcome to the forum.

[VanaGalen]

Yay, I'm so glad V didn't end up in one team with that horrid halfling Thank you for clearing that up

However, speaking of Haley, I'm not sure if we can count freeing the slaves as strictly chaotic. I think we can assume that, when good and law conflict, good should always be considered first. Imagine any paladin in such situation: he certainly would and should help the slaves, so would it be right to give him penalty chaotic shift for that? I think even Miko (who probably was the most lawful paladin ever) wouldn't hesitate given such choice.

[theNater]

However, speaking of Haley, I'm not sure if we can count freeing the slaves as strictly chaotic. I think we can assume that, when good and law conflict, good should always be considered first. Imagine any paladin in such situation: he certainly would and should help the slaves, so would it be right to give him penalty chaotic shift for that? I think even Miko (who probably was the most lawful paladin ever) wouldn't hesitate given such choice.

A lawful character would generally prefer to find some legal way to free the slaves, such as buying the slaves and then setring them free. While a lawful character might reasonably engage in freeing the slaves by Haley's method, it wouldn't be their first choice.

[Mike Havran]

I believe their alignments were fully established around the time the Giant decided to make it a full-fledged story instead of a gag strip, and they probably won't change over the course of the story.

I think Haley is firmly Chaotic, and she is about as Good as Roy is Lawful. That said, I see her somewhere between Good and Neutral, and the biggest difference would be the fact she is trying to be CG. Crystal's murder was a horrible act.

I think Vaarsuvius will be walking a few steps in each direction from TN, but will not change before the end comes.

I'm not sure if we can count freeing the slaves as strictly chaotic. I think we can assume that, when good and law conflict, good should always be considered first. Imagine any paladin in such situation: he certainly would and should help the slaves, so would it be right to give him penalty chaotic shift for that? I think even Miko (who probably was the most lawful paladin ever) wouldn't hesitate given such choice.

I would say it was mostly chaotic. I'm still not sure what was Haley's main motivation whether a concern for the slaves' condition, or her desire to give a proverbial bird to the unpleasant Tarquin and his regime. It was also rather careless, too - she left the slaves in the desert/mountain wilderness alone and without any means of getting food or protection. Even without Tarquin's soldiers, who knows how many of the slaves would actually survive long enough to really enjoy their freedom.

Miko would either tackle the entire regime, or return for reinforcements. LG like Durkon would probably try to alter the laws of the country instead of releasing slaves left and right.

[Kish]

I'm real unclear on what Haley is supposed to have done that was Lawful.

All I'm seeing is "she's been honest and truthful and helping people," all of which are Good qualities, not Lawful ones. As well say that Elan is Lawful.

[FujinAkari]

I'm real unclear on what Haley is supposed to have done that was Lawful.

All I'm seeing is "she's been honest and truthful and helping people," all of which are Good qualities, not Lawful ones. As well say that Elan is Lawful.

Yeah... looking at that storyline Haley can be seen procuring the services of a rogue cleric rather than approach a legitimate authority, engage in a prolonged battle with a thieves' guild based in her refusal to grant them their contractually agreed upon cut, and actively undermine and oppose Tarquin's regime which also allowing it to support and pamper her.

I am failing to see anything Lawful about any of that.

[Doug Lampert]

Enor tends to be an "obey his boss/friend" type, making it harder to gauge.

How is this making it harder?

Seriously, where in ANY SOURCE on alignment, or for that matter any source on real world ethics, does "I was just following orders" give you a pass on anything?

You judge Thog or Enor or anyone else based on their actions. Enor is hard to judge because he does so little in the comic, but what he does looks like Evil to me (being willling to lightning bolt someone for asking questions for instance, hunting for bounties offered by a group like the Empire of Blood).

I believe word of god is TN, which is fine as we've seen so few actions and know so little of his motivations. But "I was just following orders" is NOT why it's hard to judge. Lack of data is why it's hard to judge.

[FujinAkari]

hunting for bounties offered by a group like the Empire of Blood).

This isn't evil. At all.

At worse, it is Neutral, Evil would be if they were robbing the mark AND turning them in. Evil necessarily requires actively harming others, capturing murderers doesn't cut it.

[hamishspence]

The point is, on the Law-Chaos axis, Lawful and Chaotic people alike are willing to take cues from people they look up to and respect- so it's hard to tell if he's Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic based on what we see alone.

[AgentofHellfire]

Nah, plenty of villians that are Chaotic Evil have elaborate plans. Just for sake of convenience as I assume most here have seen it, remember the Joker from Dark Knight? His plans were intricate enough. Maybe not Xanatos Gambits, but they had a couple of levels. And his alignment? CE. CE is not restricted to ax-murderer types. You can be cold and somewhat calculating and still be CE.

Agreed. Otherwise, the whole "demon prince" concept pretty much falls apart...

[SowZ]

A lawful character would generally prefer to find some legal way to free the slaves, such as buying the slaves and then setring them free. While a lawful character might reasonably engage in freeing the slaves by Haley's method, it wouldn't be their first choice.

Maybe, but a lawful character may just as well hate illegitimate authority, whatever that means, as much as an extremely chaotic character does.

[Sunken Valley]

Do you people want me to edit the OP to match your alignment arguments? If so, what do you want me to put in?

[Doug Lampert]

This isn't evil. At all.

At worse, it is Neutral, Evil would be if they were robbing the mark AND turning them in. Evil necessarily requires actively harming others, capturing murderers doesn't cut it.

The Empire of Blood has the death penalty for not having papers or for public urination, turning someone they CLAIM is a criminal over to them for money is in fact evil.

You are directly responsible for someone's death, are doing it for money, and have no actual creditable evidence that they are guilty of ANY serious crime.

[Peelee]

The Empire of Blood has the death penalty for not having papers or for public urination, turning someone they CLAIM is a criminal over to them for money is in fact evil.

You are directly responsible for someone's death, are doing it for money, and have no actual creditable evidence that they are guilty of ANY serious crime.

The Empire of Blood actually has imprisonment for not having papers and public urination. Being killed in a gladiatorial fight is not an execution handed down by the state. That said, the bounty listed the charges of murder, conspiracy, and treason, which are valid reasons to be hunted and turned to the local authorities. Also, bounties are likely not going to be levied against paperless immigrants or public urinators, so it is highly unlikely Gannji and Enor would bother with those people.