Domriso's Massive Homebrew Overhaul Compendium

[Domriso]

First of all, casting from nature. Usually that is a problem all in itself, because it seems you have unlimited casting. Taking 10 minutes to draw 1 "SP" of color is kind of absurd, and there aren't many people who would like to wait an hour so the Koulemancer can regain spells per day, but the caster will want to recharge whenever possible, and just start torking the others off. And I know that usually you have to wait an hour for the divine caster anyway, and the book hoarder (Wiz), but after that, no one is going to be happy about it.

This is a good point. One thing I should have mentioned is that I intend for recharging to be something fairly simple. One need not sit around doing nothing but recharging; rather, they can walk and draw in some of what they need, so long as they have contact with it. So, it's not so much of needing to wait around for the Koulemancer to recharge as it is that they have the option to recharge as the day goes on.

And, since I am creating this system with two distinct concepts in mind, those being either, 1) that this system would be the only supernatural system in use, or 2) that this system would be being used in a game of my own construction, where many, many different systems, most of them mentioned in above posts, are in use. One thing that both of these preclude is traditional Vancian spellcasters. As I've said many a time, I can't stand Vancian spellcasting, and I just don't use it. It's broken, boring, and doesn't fit with my fluff of any setting.

Next is the problem with drawing colors from objects. Colors are refractions of certain wavelengths of light. To steal a color would be to steal the atomic structure of the object, or at least the part of it that is reflecting that color. IF you stopped its ability to reflect a color, it would be black, as black is the absence of all color and absorbs it. If you were to make it truly colorless, you would have to stop its ability to reflect and absorb color, therefore making it transparent, invisible. True, the mind would usually fill it in, but if something doesn't exist visually at all, then it doesn't know what to fill in and might as well turn all of your vision a random color.

Hee, you're looking at it like how I look at it. I like that. So, you get a good response...

First off, yes, light does work (generally) like that. But (and I hate to resort to this), this is supernatural at work. Absorbing color like this specifically goes against the physics of the world at work. It is not degrading the atomic structure of the atoms, but rather, it is literally removing their ability to hold color. Now, this isn't to say that the atoms never will regain color (they will) but only when they take on a new form, say, by the leaf being thrown in a fire and burned.

The invisibility thing is pretty much what happens, with the mind filling in the blanks as such. However, the mind defaults to filling in the color as whatever is around it. This means that these colorless objects can be seen indirectly, because of the bizarre weave of colors and textures that move through the air. Plus, all other senses interact with the colorless objects on the same level. If that makes sense.

But...

Colors also have specific functions in living organisms. If you turned a leaf black, it's chloroplasts would get too much light energy and burst, the same reason we have to have energy in small packets called ATP in our cells. If you turned it translucent, you would kill it from lack of energy at all. Also, when you stop absorbing that light energy, the color would return to it if you didn't alter it's atomic structure.

Now, here's where things get tricky. You are correct in that the plants should seemingly die without their color. But, not exactly. The color is not an inherent aspect of the leaf, but rather a byproduct of what the leaf is built to do. Green light from our sun is almost useless, so most plants just sort of ignore it, shunting it off so we see the plants as green. By stealing the green from a plant, it doesn't necessarily kill the plant, because the chloroplasts themselves are still working as normal. Rather, the plant now has to deal with the fact that it is essentially invisible, which might be useful or not, depending on if it needs to be eaten.

For things that aren't living beings, color isn't usually so important, but for some objects it might make them essentially useless. For instance, if a Koulermancer were to take a computer monitor and steal color from it, they'd essentially get whatever the hell color they wanted, but then the monitor would be completely unusable, due to it no longer possessing a color at all.

Symbolic color powers can be both abused and rejected. If you leave it up to the character, then they could say that the color green, blue, and/or brown reminds them of fire, and therefore almost always be able to use fire magic, completely ruining the concept of this system, for you could just have a simple fire mage class that draws energy from nature. However, if you make a list, people will disagree and some colors are hard to find. For example, Orange usually means caution, alert, or simply "HEY I'M OVER HERE", something of safety. And then as you mentioned, green is associated with life. But the color Orange means life to Hindus. And where are you going to find orange in a medieval society?

Exactly. I toyed with the idea of letting the symbolic powers of colors being something the characters could just pick, but it would be a difficult thing to enforce. So, individual "spells" (for lack of a better word) will be made (eventually), and each of them will key up to one or more Associations. I'm still trying to decide if not possessing an Association should make it impossible to use those powers, but whatever. The point is that there will be a built-in measure of how to balance the powers.

As for where certain colors will be found... well, it depends on how you look at it. In India society, orange was a very common color, being a common color for monk's robes (after, you know, being naked was outlawed). And, the lack of certain colors is intended in the system. It adds to the flavor and some of the difficulty. Again, I'm more about immersion into the setting than the mechanics, generally. I like my mechanics being fun, but not controlling.

Mixing colors should have an affect of both of those colors, so there would only be 3 primary affects, and combined would give just a different balance of the same three affects (Well, you could stat in tints of black and white, too, but remember what colors are and more specifically what those two colors are).

...I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say here. Clarification?

Have incredibly limited pools, or even better, have them draw the power the same round they cast. In effect, you draw a color from your environment as a move action, attack as a standard, and that attack should scale up to a full attack action from other classes (Less with range and special effects, although it should also take into account how squishy these people are). Then, for a more powerful effect, spend a standard or full round action getting energy before an attack the next round.

Hm... this is intriguing. I had intended on this system possessing a pool of power, but having to draw it on a specific turn could be interesting, too. It would lead to a lot of Koulermancers being decked out in little objects they could draw their power from, so magicians would be all sorts of colorful and flamboyantly dressed. I kinda like that, actually.

When you steal an object's color, you are actually just absorbing that wavelength of light energy, and your attack with that will be based on the absolute color. If you can draw a few colors at a time, combine them as you wish, but there is level limits on the power, and they should have powers still based on the primary colors and tints. Heck, with this, maybe make a link to the color wheel alignment spectrum, changing green to yellow for mixing purposes. If you can draw only one color for use at a time, then you can have each color mean/do something different, but have everyone agree on the color=powers types beforehand.

I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but one thing that I've specifically been trying to avoid with this system is sticking each color with a specific set of powers. Since what role a color has is so influenced by culture, specifying that sort of thing just feels wrong. So, I'll be avoiding that extremely. I still want to make lists of what powers are associated with what, but I don't want it too tied down.

When you "draw a color" from an object, the color is still there, it's just dulled and depleted for a round or so, so you can't draw from one source indefinitely. This has no affect on the object, even if it is living, because it is still absorbing the light it needs and not the ones it doesn't need.

And, like I pointed out above, I'm not really on board with this idea. I played with something similar, but I ultimately liked the idea of the color being permanently lost from something. It adds a bit of permanence into the picture which appeals to me.

Sorry for the wall of text, hope this helps, insert another formality here.

Not a problem. I post stuff here so it can be looked at and critiqued, so this is what I want.

Just want to say, I love your ideas.

Cool. I'm glad you enjoy. I loved the feedback, so the feeling... sort of mutual?

[Xechon]

This is a good point. One thing I should have mentioned is that I intend for recharging to be something fairly simple. One need not sit around doing nothing but recharging; rather, they can walk and draw in some of what they need, so long as they have contact with it. So, it's not so much of needing to wait around for the Koulemancer to recharge as it is that they have the option to recharge as the day goes on.

And, since I am creating this system with two distinct concepts in mind, those being either, 1) that this system would be the only supernatural system in use, or 2) that this system would be being used in a game of my own construction, where many, many different systems, most of them mentioned in above posts, are in use. One thing that both of these preclude is traditional Vancian spellcasters. As I've said many a time, I can't stand Vancian spellcasting, and I just don't use it. It's broken, boring, and doesn't fit with my fluff of any setting.

Yeah, I know that this is for your system, but it hasn't been explained too much how magic will work on there, so I'm just holding it to default True Sorcery, and from time to time I might mention the Vancian system for relation to D&D, but I don't like that either.

To be able to recharge like that seems...well, like you just get free spells every 10 mins, and while that is nice to the casters, I don't see any way of balance there. I dunno, I may just be being stubborn right now.

Hee, you're looking at it like how I look at it. I like that. So, you get a good response...

First off, yes, light does work (generally) like that. But (and I hate to resort to this), this is supernatural at work. Absorbing color like this specifically goes against the physics of the world at work. It is not degrading the atomic structure of the atoms, but rather, it is literally removing their ability to hold color. Now, this isn't to say that the atoms never will regain color (they will) but only when they take on a new form, say, by the leaf being thrown in a fire and burned.

The invisibility thing is pretty much what happens, with the mind filling in the blanks as such. However, the mind defaults to filling in the color as whatever is around it. This means that these colorless objects can be seen indirectly, because of the bizarre weave of colors and textures that move through the air. Plus, all other senses interact with the colorless objects on the same level. If that makes sense.

But...

Okay. My mind automatically explains everything that I care about in every way I can, and I just take the best idea. I cannot stand someone saying "the supernatural", because I can make everything seem perfectly natural, so there is no need to explain it. It's all knowledge and squishy science, but I love trying to explain all of this, so let me try again.

First of all, colorless items by your description would be transparent, but (I think this is what you meant) with movement, sound, taste, touch, your mind can visualize it and fill it in. Its the famous "In the corner of your eye" theory. That's fine, but if that's the case you should have a spot check for color-drained items, - whatever DC if its moving or gives off a scent, and maybe something for realizing its there if you accidentally touch it, etc. If your mind fills it in with its surroundings, it would be difficult to make out, but once it understands the object is there, it can make out the difference.

Light would be absorbed by the object as normal, but the reflected light is flattened out by the caster, using "magic" (which I describe as simply energy leaked through the second natural plane, some of which can be used by a caster, through means of incredibly specific actions, certain vibrations by his voice, waves of energy emitted through the mind, etc.), and the energy it had is converted into a usable form, depending on the wavelength. You could explain the color/power associations by the amount of energy this way, and, without looking it up so it will work in our minds, say that more common colors have lower wavelengths or something and give less energy for effects.

Stealing the color from an object wouldn't affect it or it's processes at all, but it still obviously affect perception of it. So the computer monitor would still run all proceses normally, but couldn't be read, and if the wavelength was somehow repaired it would still work as normal.

Now, if you want the colorful, prepare-as-you-cast types, you should keep colors. Also, the issue of draining all color from clothes presents itself. This is my highest recommendation, but its your system.

Mixing colors should have an affect of both of those colors, so there would only be 3 primary affects, and combined would give just a different balance of the same three affects (Well, you could stat in tints of black and white, too, but remember what colors are and more specifically what those two colors are).

What I was saying here is that if you had colors able to be mixed, then red, blue, and yellow would all be categories of "spells" you can do, and if you mix them together, let say you have orange energy, then it would have some of the effects of red and some of yellow. Then you can add black and white in there with different effects or a spectrum for the effects, so that you could have dark blue having some of blues powers and some of blacks, or it could be all of blues powers, but some part of them are emphasized by the black. Also, this wasn't in the original, but you could have mixed colors just combine some power types to make new ones, so if red was fire and blue water, dark red would be steam.

When you steal an object's color, you are actually just absorbing that wavelength of light energy, and your attack with that will be based on the absolute color. If you can draw a few colors at a time, combine them as you wish, but there is level limits on the power, and they should have powers still based on the primary colors and tints. Heck, with this, maybe make a link to the color wheel alignment spectrum, changing green to yellow for mixing purposes. If you can draw only one color for use at a time, then you can have each color mean/do something different, but have everyone agree on the color=powers types beforehand.

Here, I was saying that if you stole, say, the color red, you actually stole the energy from that certain wavelength of light for your own personal use. There should be a limit on the power you can get from each that loosens as you get more experienced in this form of casting. If you use Red, Yellow, Blue, Black and White as the main ones and then have them be able to be combined, you could have some correlation to the color wheel alignment system, just change green to yellow so you can mix the colors in both. If you cannot mix the colors, then each can do something different, but you should probably get it so the players all mostly agree on the color to power choices. Unless your system will ride on how common the colors are, in which case they should be set.

So all in all, Koulemancers would use a little energy, probably from themselves, because magic is already readily available, to capture more energy from colors, rendering them useless but the object not altered. The objects would be hard to spot, because your brain fills it in with its surroundings, but not invisible. Common colors give less energy for use, and this energy can be used to activate any of his powers.

or

They steal the immediate reflected light energy, and in its original wavelength, use it to do something in a way similar to magic (True Sorcery), and colors can be mixed for different effects. This energy can only be stored for maybe about a minute, and not much of it, so the casters usually have to draw the energy right before their "spell". More powerful spells take more energy, and therefore take longer to "prepare" right before casting it. or whatever.

[Domriso]

To be able to recharge like that seems...well, like you just get free spells every 10 mins, and while that is nice to the casters, I don't see any way of balance there. I dunno, I may just be being stubborn right now.

Well, I am very much of the idea that supernatural powers should be fun and have a bunch of applications. With that, I feel that most abilities should be recoverable somehow. Arbitrary limitations bore me. I go for fluff that's interesting.

Okay. My mind automatically explains everything that I care about in every way I can, and I just take the best idea. I cannot stand someone saying "the supernatural", because I can make everything seem perfectly natural, so there is no need to explain it. It's all knowledge and squishy science, but I love trying to explain all of this, so let me try again.

I completely agree. I'd much rather try to understand why something works how it works. The theoretical applications and metaphysics surrounding magic is what makes it fun.

First of all, colorless items by your description would be transparent, but (I think this is what you meant) with movement, sound, taste, touch, your mind can visualize it and fill it in. Its the famous "In the corner of your eye" theory. That's fine, but if that's the case you should have a spot check for color-drained items, - whatever DC if its moving or gives off a scent, and maybe something for realizing its there if you accidentally touch it, etc. If your mind fills it in with its surroundings, it would be difficult to make out, but once it understands the object is there, it can make out the difference.

Actually, that does sound pretty cool. I think I'll throw that in there; colorless objects receive a natural hiding bonus, due to being essentially chameleonic.

Light would be absorbed by the object as normal, but the reflected light is flattened out by the caster, using "magic" (which I describe as simply energy leaked through the second natural plane, some of which can be used by a caster, through means of incredibly specific actions, certain vibrations by his voice, waves of energy emitted through the mind, etc.), and the energy it had is converted into a usable form, depending on the wavelength. You could explain the color/power associations by the amount of energy this way, and, without looking it up so it will work in our minds, say that more common colors have lower wavelengths or something and give less energy for effects.

You could certainly take it that way. However, it must be made clear that Koulermancy is not simply taking the energy of a specific color and using it to power some form of magic; rather, it is using the symbolic power associated with the color to achieve a heightened sense of mystic control. The associations and symbolic power are often more important that the actual energy within the light itself.

[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]Stealing the color from an object wouldn't affect it or it's processes at all, but it still obviously affect perception of it. So the computer monitor would still run all proceses normally, but couldn't be read, and if the wavelength was somehow repaired it would still work as normal.[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]

Precisely.

[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]Now, if you want the colorful, prepare-as-you-cast types, you should keep colors. Also, the issue of draining all color from clothes presents itself. This is my highest recommendation, but its your system.[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]

This is slightly confusing. Do you mean that the colors of drained objects should somehow remain if I go with the action-based system instead of the mana-based system?

[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]What I was saying here is that if you had colors able to be mixed, then red, blue, and yellow would all be categories of "spells" you can do, and if you mix them together, let say you have orange energy, then it would have some of the effects of red and some of yellow. Then you can add black and white in there with different effects or a spectrum for the effects, so that you could have dark blue having some of blues powers and some of blacks, or it could be all of blues powers, but some part of them are emphasized by the black. Also, this wasn't in the original, but you could have mixed colors just combine some power types to make new ones, so if red was fire and blue water, dark red would be steam.[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]

Interesting, but not what I'm going for here. Again, specifying that certain colors must correlate to specific abilities is not what I'm going for; it just feels too... cliche? Boring? Something like that. I'm going more for the idea that one can take the raw, symbolic power behind a color, draw it into herself and then shape the power into some other form.

In fact, with that description in mind, perhaps a better way to set up the system would be to make a basic list of colors, a set list which all colors fall into. Keep it somewhat comprehensive, but not completely (because that would be nuts). Then, players who use Koulermancy have to pick an Association for each color they can use. They can only shape their powers into those known Associations, but can use whatever colors they want, so long as they fit the ability itself.

...That looks like gobbledygook, even from my standpoint, so I'll have to flesh that out later. For now, back to answering questions.

[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]Here, I was saying that if you stole, say, the color red, you actually stole the energy from that certain wavelength of light for your own personal use. There should be a limit on the power you can get from each that loosens as you get more experienced in this form of casting. If you use Red, Yellow, Blue, Black and White as the main ones and then have them be able to be combined, you could have some correlation to the color wheel alignment system, just change green to yellow so you can mix the colors in both. If you cannot mix the colors, then each can do something different, but you should probably get it so the players all mostly agree on the color to power choices. Unless your system will ride on how common the colors are, in which case they should be set.[QUOTE=Xechon;12392524]

Again, I'll be playing with the ideas a bit, but I'm trying to avoid oversimplification. I like complexity; it makes the game itself fun, so both the mechanics and the roleplaying can be enjoyed. I doubt I'll make any correlation to any alignment system, but I see where you're coming from.

So all in all, Koulemancers would use a little energy, probably from themselves, because magic is already readily available, to capture more energy from colors, rendering them useless but the object not altered. The objects would be hard to spot, because your brain fills it in with its surroundings, but not invisible. Common colors give less energy for use, and this energy can be used to activate any of his powers.

or

They steal the immediate reflected light energy, and in its original wavelength, use it to do something in a way similar to magic (True Sorcery), and colors can be mixed for different effects. This energy can only be stored for maybe about a minute, and not much of it, so the casters usually have to draw the energy right before their "spell". More powerful spells take more energy, and therefore take longer to "prepare" right before casting it. or whatever.

I'm going to be avoiding common colors being weaker, because that's subjective and arbitrary limitations. It's more fun to make the different colors just have a wide variety of effects that relate to their associations.

As for the actual mechanics... I'm still torn. I like both ideas. I'll need to think more on it.

[Milo v3]

I really like the ideas in this thread and I commend you on your imagation, creativity, and imaginativity.
I especially like your Geomancy system and enjoy reading about how you are slowly not only thinking about the mechanics of Koulemancy but the possible ideas behind each mechanic allowing for more complex ideas.

I can't wait to see your systems unfold.

Edit: Also I have thoughts on Cartomancy,

Spoiler

Show

Firstly when using the cards they have multiple Interpretations and can have several potential effects which are multiple interpretation of the arcana (E.g. The Death Arcana is symbolic of death and can drain an enemies soul, but it is also symbolic of change and could instead speed up movement in the area). This added with the ability to have the card facedown and having an opposite effect can cause their to be several possible outcomes to the use of a single card.
Also note that while their could be several potention Interpretations if you find their are too many potential options then you could limit it to only having four Interpretations:
Upright Standard - Which has am effect which is to do with the obvious interpreation.
Upright Metaphoric - Where the effect refers to the more symbolic meaning of the arcana.
Reversed Standard - Which has an effect which is polarly opposite with the obvious interpreation.
Reversed Metaphoric - Where the effect which is polarly opposite to the symbolic meaning of the arcana.
Secondly your cards could all come from not only the major arcana but also the minor arcana. Despite the very unimaginative names of the various minor arcana each does represent different concepts. If you used both the minor and major arcana then the number of potential cards increase from 22 to 78 (22 Major & 56 Minor)
Thirdly if you use Interpretations you might want to limit the amount fo interpretations a Cartomancer can have for ever card.
Fourthly You might want to limit how many cards a Cartomancer have any potential time in their deck. This would allow them to specialize slightly and also decrease the chances of drawing useless cards.
Fifthly If you use interpretations the Major Arcana would probably have more interpretations than the minor making them more varied but less focused.

[Domriso]

Ooo, damn, those are some good idea. I hadn't thought of those. I like them. I will keep those in mind when I work more closely on Cartomancy.

[Xechon]

Well, I am very much of the idea that supernatural powers should be fun and have a bunch of applications. With that, I feel that most abilities should be recoverable somehow. Arbitrary limitations bore me. I go for fluff that's interesting.

Yes, I also agree that magic should either be rechargeable or unlimited. I was just saying that 10 mins is kind of crazy to me, and there are better ways to do it. If you take the no pool method, then it fixes itself and gives unlimited casting, and this is (seemingly) the easiest way to do it. But I can see you are leaning towards a pool, so what I suggest with that is to have a simple recharge rate that draws some color from the caster's surroundings, but doesn't make objects colorless and doesn't recharge nearly as fast as concentrating on drawing from a single object.

You could certainly take it that way. However, it must be made clear that Koulermancy is not simply taking the energy of a specific color and using it to power some form of magic; rather, it is using the symbolic power associated with the color to achieve a heightened sense of mystic control. The associations and symbolic power are often more important that the actual energy within the light itself.

I take it you lean on the philosophy side of science and theory. What I see here is that you are taking the meaning of the color to that person, erasing the color from that object, and then using the energy gained from it to do only what that color can do as it means to the person. Taking it from the character's individual mindset is a good thing, as when determining colors you have to not only take into perspective the physics of it, but how each person's eyes and brain interpret it. There has been a question going around that states: "what if we all see different colors, but we all know them by the same name?" So if you see something as red, and I see it as blue, but I've always known that color to be called red, we would both call it red, and it would be, even though we see it differently.

In my mind, you can take the energy, and symbolic power is just how you interpret that color and what it means to you, and through thought you can trigger one of its actions. I don't see the possibility of just stealing the essence of red and using that as energy, because essence is what an organism is aside from mechanics, and co-exists with them on an overlapping plane. I have a lot of theories that I use.

Also, a couple problems I just thought of: What about stealing a color from a completely reflective surface, like a mirror; should there be a difference between stealing from objects that produce light and objects that reflect it; the colorless mechanic might make the koulemancer overpowered due to its unlimited slight invisibility powers, even while powering himself?

This is slightly confusing. Do you mean that the colors of drained objects should somehow remain if I go with the action-based system instead of the mana-based system?

Yes, if you don't have to store it then it makes sense to be able to keep it in it's original form, but the human body doesn't have a means to store light energy, and would have to run it through a chain of processes elsewhere to convert it to a storable form, as we also cannot convert light energy. And we could say we use magic to form a process to change or store it, but if this person can use outright magic, why is he going the long way to draw energy from colors?

Interesting, but not what I'm going for here. Again, specifying that certain colors must correlate to specific abilities is not what I'm going for; it just feels too... cliche? Boring? Something like that. I'm going more for the idea that one can take the raw, symbolic power behind a color, draw it into herself and then shape the power into some other form.

In fact, with that description in mind, perhaps a better way to set up the system would be to make a basic list of colors, a set list which all colors fall into. Keep it somewhat comprehensive, but not completely (because that would be nuts). Then, players who use Koulermancy have to pick an Association for each color they can use. They can only shape their powers into those known Associations, but can use whatever colors they want, so long as they fit the ability itself.

...That looks like gobbledygook, even from my standpoint, so I'll have to flesh that out later. For now, back to answering questions.

As I mentioned above, raw, symbolic power would be in the eyes of the viewer, and therefore just describable as "what the color means to the caster". In this, you don't have to have set groups at all, because the character determines his own set groups on his ideals/beliefs. It should be, though, that characters can only make one association with one color.

As for the second paragraph there, I am confused with your wording, so I'm not going to try to comment right now, as to not make a fool of myself.

Again, I'll be playing with the ideas a bit, but I'm trying to avoid oversimplification. I like complexity; it makes the game itself fun, so both the mechanics and the roleplaying can be enjoyed. I doubt I'll make any correlation to any alignment system, but I see where you're coming from.

Complexity can be good if you need it, but realize that sometimes the simplest way is the best. True, if it is complicated it makes you feel like your doing something significant, but you have to balance that with the drag it has on playtime, and try not to make the others feel they are not important or make them angry because you only got 18 seconds of combat done in an hour of play. The alignment system link was just a comparison I saw, I didn't think it was a good idea. I just like to get out as many ideas as I can before I forget about them. It seems I just used a lot of I s in this paragraph.

I'm going to be avoiding common colors being weaker, because that's subjective and arbitrary limitations. It's more fun to make the different colors just have a wide variety of effects that relate to their associations.

As for the actual mechanics... I'm still torn. I like both ideas. I'll need to think more on it.

I broke down and looked up the wavelengths of colors, and I found that they have different curves but the speed they travel balances them out so they all have about the same energy potential anyway. And anyway, as you mentioned some campaigns would have different amounts of different colors in them, so you couldn't really make charts for that.

Honestly, for what your going for, I say the action-based style would be best, save for making items colorless permanently (you could still make them lose color, but the guys aren't going to want to make their clothes do a disappearing act forever, or lose their family heirloom, or misplace the tank, etc.). It keeps the colors as colors scientifically, and it just works better when you try to explain it.

[Domriso]

Yes, I also agree that magic should either be rechargeable or unlimited. I was just saying that 10 mins is kind of crazy to me, and there are better ways to do it. If you take the no pool method, then it fixes itself and gives unlimited casting, and this is (seemingly) the easiest way to do it. But I can see you are leaning towards a pool, so what I suggest with that is to have a simple recharge rate that draws some color from the caster's surroundings, but doesn't make objects colorless and doesn't recharge nearly as fast as concentrating on drawing from a single object.

I do think that the immediate drawing would probably be the easiest way to do it, but I'd like to see how it would play out first. As of this moment, I'm leaning towards the immediate-draw method rather than the mana-pool mechanic, simply because it's a bit easier to comprehend and keep track of.

I take it you lean on the philosophy side of science and theory. What I see here is that you are taking the meaning of the color to that person, erasing the color from that object, and then using the energy gained from it to do only what that color can do as it means to the person. Taking it from the character's individual mindset is a good thing, as when determining colors you have to not only take into perspective the physics of it, but how each person's eyes and brain interpret it. There has been a question going around that states: "what if we all see different colors, but we all know them by the same name?" So if you see something as red, and I see it as blue, but I've always known that color to be called red, we would both call it red, and it would be, even though we see it differently.

In my mind, you can take the energy, and symbolic power is just how you interpret that color and what it means to you, and through thought you can trigger one of its actions. I don't see the possibility of just stealing the essence of red and using that as energy, because essence is what an organism is aside from mechanics, and co-exists with them on an overlapping plane. I have a lot of theories that I use.

I do indeed lean to the philosophy side of science and theory, but not in the way you're thinking. My conception is not so much that everyone sees a color differently, but that all things naturally possess a kind of symbolic power of their own.

When one is drawing color from an object, they are inherently changing the object, drawing something essential from it permanently, so as to give power to their own desires. The reason that individual colors must be used in certain ways is because people naturally tend to associate certain colors with certain aspects. Red is fire, Blue is water, Green is life, White is purity, Black is the unknown, &c.

I am not saying that these are inherent in the colors; not at all, really. The colors merely have absorbed a certain amount of power all their own which can be drawn upon and used to fuel other directed means. Even Vancian spellcasting uses this kind of symbolic references in the material components of spells. Look at most spells that have material components and you'll find that they are somehow related to the end product. This is thaumaturgy at its most direct.

Science is important, but it is not the end-all be-all. In my conception of mystical, supernatural powers, most of it is something that goes against physics. "Magic" is not really a power source all itself, but rather a representation of the symbolic meanings and prescribed uses of certain aspects. Magic is inherently supernatural, specifically because it violates natural laws. It is a bending of the normal bounds of things, usually through the application of a conscious will into the world, using intermediaries to achieve a desired effect.

That's something of a mouthful, but it is essentially my philosophy behind all types of supernatural means in a game. I try to make the mechanics interesting but represent the fluff; it's specifically for this reason that I try to create new mechanics. I like my different supernatural systems to all possess their own feel to them, both by fluff and by mechanics.

Also, a couple problems I just thought of: What about stealing a color from a completely reflective surface, like a mirror; should there be a difference between stealing from objects that produce light and objects that reflect it; the colorless mechanic might make the koulemancer overpowered due to its unlimited slight invisibility powers, even while powering himself?

Stealing from a mirror is an interesting idea, but it comes down to the fact that a mirror would not possess a color: it is purely reflective. In fact, a significant protection against Koulemancers would be to have a home built of reflective materials. There would be nothing for the Koulemancer to draw from.

Likewise, a light-producing object would be intriguing to draw power from. For instance, neon-lights could be fun because of all the stark colors (okay, I know, neon only makes red light, but "neon lights" is the general term for those types of light-producing gases), but ultimately it would just be a more vibrant source of the color. In fact, a light-producing object that was drawn off of would likely grant more power, because it is more vibrant and therefore reinforcing the color behind it.

The semi-invisibility is something of an annoying trait, but it should be noted that it is not full invisibility. It's more like a glamour; the colorless object is visible, but it is not a normal looking thing. It's like how it's easy to hide a tree-like object in a forest; it's just that they camouflage in every environment. In fact, it's an easy way to tell if someone is a Koulemancer; if they have a colorless object, it's probably because they had to draw from it.

Yes, if you don't have to store it then it makes sense to be able to keep it in it's original form, but the human body doesn't have a means to store light energy, and would have to run it through a chain of processes elsewhere to convert it to a storable form, as we also cannot convert light energy. And we could say we use magic to form a process to change or store it, but if this person can use outright magic, why is he going the long way to draw energy from colors?

The way you're looking at how the theory behind Koulemancy is slightly different from mine, so I don't really see this as even being a relevant issue, though I do see where you're coming from.

As I mentioned above, raw, symbolic power would be in the eyes of the viewer, and therefore just describable as "what the color means to the caster". In this, you don't have to have set groups at all, because the character determines his own set groups on his ideals/beliefs. It should be, though, that characters can only make one association with one color.

Ah, but here is where we disagree. I see red, and while sometimes I think of fire, sometimes I think of passion. When I see a girl in a red dress I don't immediately yell and douse her with a bucket of water. The human mind is easily capable of multiple associations. In fact, I think that it would be easier to have the mechanics set up like this somehow:

Koulemancers have two ways of looking at colors: Associations, which are what they tend to immediately associate with a color, and Disassociations (for lack of a better word), which are connections behind colors that are only tenuously made, at least to that person. A Koulemancer can very easily make a color work for them if it is something they Associate, but they can make a color work otherwise as well. However, they cannot make a color work for them in a Dissociate way.

So, this set up would mean that there would be a set limit on what the Koulemancer could do. They would be capable of gaining new Associations, but the limit would be set up there for a purpose.

As for the second paragraph there, I am confused with your wording, so I'm not going to try to comment right now, as to not make a fool of myself.

-cough- Yeah, I, uh, don't quite know what I was getting at there myself. I think I forgot what I was writing about halfway through.

Complexity can be good if you need it, but realize that sometimes the simplest way is the best. True, if it is complicated it makes you feel like your doing something significant, but you have to balance that with the drag it has on playtime, and try not to make the others feel they are not important or make them angry because you only got 18 seconds of combat done in an hour of play. The alignment system link was just a comparison I saw, I didn't think it was a good idea. I just like to get out as many ideas as I can before I forget about them. It seems I just used a lot of I s in this paragraph.

I'm not going for complexity to make it feel significant so much as I make things complex to give a wide range of options. I hate arbitrary limitations, so if I'm putting the limitations in just because it will make work easier on me, I'm going to be disappointed with myself.

Honestly, for what your going for, I say the action-based style would be best, save for making items colorless permanently (you could still make them lose color, but the guys aren't going to want to make their clothes do a disappearing act forever, or lose their family heirloom, or misplace the tank, etc.). It keeps the colors as colors scientifically, and it just works better when you try to explain it.

Actually, one of the points of making things colorless is specifically because there should be a choice. Koulemancer's would have the chance to keep objects on them that they could draw from, but they would probably have some they wouldn't want to use. In some cases, however, they might have to. I have been playing with the idea of having some kind of ritual for returning color to an object, but it would be a complicated thing, and would require drawing color from a bunch of other objects. In other words, there is no way to return the color permanently.

And, as a close, I am definitely leaning to the immediate-draw mechanic. That actually seems like more fun.

[Daverin]

My word, what have you been doing when I wasn't looking?!?

Looks like I'll need to get cracking to look up what has been happening since I last posted here. I'll try to give any feedback I can although, as usual, I likely will be more on the "fluff" and positive feedback side, since in general my op-fu is very weak.

Also... you REALLY need to stop thinking up systems before you have more conceptions of magic than actually exists in fiction!

[Domriso]

Hey, hey now. Anything I think up exists in my own fiction. I just need to, you know, write something first.

[Domriso]

Alright, I've been thinking more concretely about it, and I think I've figured out how Koulemancy works. So, without further ado, here is Koulemancy, version 1.0:

Koulemancy is the art of drawing colors into ones person, using the power inherent within it to shape concrete effects with said power. It is a strange magic, using subtle senses of symbolism to fuel it, and its effects are varied and wide.

Powers: Powers are the basis of Koulemancy. Whenever someone is using Koulemancy, they are turning raw color into some kind of effect, and those effects are known collectively as Powers.

(I will admit, I was more concerned with figuring out the mechanics, so I haven't assigned any specific Powers yet; they'll come eventually, just wait for them)

Associations: Associations are the connections that a Koulemancer draws between certain colors and Powers. The Koulemancer is only familiar with a few specific Powers, and each of those Powers has a color associated with it. So, for instance, Lyna knows the Fire Power, and she associates Fire with Red. Thus, when using the Fire Power, she must fuel it with Red color.

Koulemancers can have multiple Associations for a single power. Lyna only associates Red with Fire but Gideon associates both Red and Blue; as such, he can use either to fuel his Fire Power. Additionally, colors can have multiple Associations. Raldopho associates Green with both Life and Growth, and can use Green for either.

However, Koulemancers only get a certain amount of Associations, and thus they are a precious economy.

This is not to say that Koulemancers cannot use other Powers and can't fuel Powers with other colors; they can. Doing so is more difficult, however. Whenever a Koulemancer is using a Power that they do not have an Association with, the cost for the Power increases by 2 points.

Any color can potentially be associated with any Power, but it is up to the DM to determine what is and isn't allowed. Red and Blue are commonly associated with Fire, but Green and Blackare not. To use Green or Black to fuel a Fire Power would need a very good justification.

Favored Color: Everyone has some colors they like more than others. Favorite colors are such a common question that it's almost a cliche. But, for a Koulemancer, this is a much more important fact.

Each Koulemancer gets one Favored Color. This confers a number of benefits. First off, the Koulemancer can draw limited amounts of energy of their Favored Color indefinitely. So long as the Koulemancer has an object which is their Favored Color on their person, they can draw a single point from it without depleting the source.

Additionally, the Koulemancer can draw their Favored Color more quickly than they can other colors. It requires only a Swift Action to gather color from their Favored Color.

Drawing Energy: Drawing energy from a color is not so much difficult as it is attention-demanding. It takes a Move Action to draw color from an object (or a Swift Action, if the object in question is the Koulemancer's Favored Color). To direct the energy thus drawn requires a Standard Action. This means that Koulemancer's can draw and shape simple Powers in a single round.

Koulemancer's can also hold energy they have drawn in reserve. Maintaining energy in this manner requires a Move Action, but it has a few benefits. First and foremost, this is the only way to draw enough energy in to fuel stronger Powers. Additionally, this allows Koulemancers to ready energy if they feel they are in danger.

Not every object can be drawn upon to fuel Powers. The object must be large enough that it has an obvious color. Further, the object must have a distinct color; objects which change color depending on how you look at them cannot be drawn on. Objects which change color can be drawn on, but when used they are drained and rendered colorless no matter what color is drawn.

Larger objects can provide more than a single point of energy when drawn upon. Any object which takes up a 5 ft. x 5 ft. x 5 ft. cube provides two points energy. For every additional 5 ft. cube, the object provides an additional point of energy. However, drawing from a larger object still takes the same amount of time as drawing from several smaller objects. If the larger object is drawn upon and used without fully drawing from it, it is still used up, rendered colorless, the energy not used simply wasted.

Some objects, however, are simply too large to draw from. Anything that is more than a 30 ft. cube is simply too large for most Koulemancer's to draw from, and they provide nothing when attempted.

A strange case is what happens when something which possesses multiple colors is drawn from. Objects that have multiple colors on them (which is most things) grant only one kind of color. This color is whatever is the predominant color on the object. So, if a Koulemancer were to draw from a green scarf with thin, red stripes, they would draw Green from the scarf.

Even stranger, when a case such as this comes up, only the color actually drawn is removed from the object. In the case above, the parts of the scarf which were green would now be colorless, but the thin red lines would remain red. The object as a whole is still considered colorless, and therefore cannot be drawn upon, but these remnants of color remain, causing most objects to not be truly colorless; simply mostly colorless.

-----------------------------------

And that's what I've got. Obviously, I need to make actual Powers, but that's fairly simple to do. I intend to make them somewhat adjustable, so they can be made to be more powerful. I also will list commonly associated colors with the Powers, to make DMs jobs easier. Other than that... well, I don't see anything else missing, really. I'm hoping other people will point out the parts I've missed.

[Milo v3]

Looks awesome. So far I haven't seen a single hole in it. Bravo.

Also would I be allowed to use this in a story I have a few ideas for?

[Domriso]

Go ahead. To be perfectly honest, my original conception of how to work the system came from a story I read, so you'll just be continuing the remixing.

[Domriso]

Look! I made a thingee! Progress!

Fullmetal Alchemist Alchemy

[Milo v3]

Just wondering if your still continuing this?
If so which will you be working on next?

[Domriso]

Oh, I'm working on stuff. I'm actually working on what I am calling Thaumaturgy, which is essentially symbol magic, but on a high scale. It's my answer to the boring vancian magic and mana magic. It's coming, but it's taking a while to write up.