Wouldn't people like to buy a book about the lives of Haerta, Ganonron and Jephton?

[legomaster00156]

Haerta would be a terrible backstory villain for the Order, not least of all as she's portrayed as mind numbingly powerful, so powerful that Xykon is nothing.

Let's start by saying that this was NEVER, EVER said. She is the most powerful of the trio, but that was it.

it'll be tough to buy guys weaker than Xykon by a fair way standing up to someone who can probably destroy Xykon in a few rounds tops.

May I say that 6 vs. 1 is an advantage? In addition, the Scribblers had two wizards and a DRUID on their side. Soon fulfilled the roles of melee specialist and tank, forcing Haerta to continually cast defensively. And, of course, Haerta's made of soft, Sneak Attack-able flesh for the halfling.
Of course, this wouldn't matter at all if Haerta were epic and they were not. But they WERE epic.

[factotum]

Haerta would be a terrible backstory villain for the Order, not least of all as she's portrayed as mind numbingly powerful, so powerful that Xykon is nothing.

I doubt that. The other two were pretty powerful in their own right and they still couldn't stop V losing to Xykon, and losing hard. Yes, Haerta was the strongest of the three, but I doubt she was so far ahead of the others that she made Xykon seem "nothing".

[Fitzclowningham]

I doubt that. The other two were pretty powerful in their own right and they still couldn't stop V losing to Xykon, and losing hard. Yes, Haerta was the strongest of the three, but I doubt she was so far ahead of the others that she made Xykon seem "nothing".

I remember one thread where folks were trying to estimate what the DC for Familicide would be, and, well this is the best I could find:

Familicide's DC can't be less than 100 without extreme cheese. So, if Haerta has a total of +20 to Inteligence from epic spells, a +10 epic headband of intelect, maxed-out Spellcraft, and 16 inteligence base+all the level bonuses, she has to be...(does math) at least 62nd level. I'll say 55th, since she probably has better spells/items than I guessed.

I'm not an expert on whether that analysis is right, but a 55th level wizard sounds around the right power level for being able to knock off dozens of dragons with a thought. I haven't ever seen an estimate of Xykon's being anywhere near that powerful. She may not be optimized for fighting Liches, but as a necromancer, she probably knows a thing or two about them.

I say she could take him easy.

[factotum]

I think somebody sat down and actually calculated what Familicide's DC would be if you actually followed the epic spell rules, and I think they came up with an answer not far shy of 1000. That 100 he says there is purely a guesstimate--I don't think trying to determine Haerta's level from it is that useful!

Also, how would she actually *get* to level 55? What sort of creatures could she destroy that would even earn her any XP?

[Fitzclowningham]

Honestly, I have no idea who she'd have to kill to get to 55. Maybe there are other planes that harbor superbigbads? It is kind of ridiculous, I'll admit. But so is Familicide.

As for the DC, you know it has to be high. What if you were creating a spell to kill just one dragon that you could see, instantly and with no save? I'm guessing the DC would be somewhere in the 40's, maybe higher. The divination alone, to locate every related creature, seems like it would be steep.

I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm just saying.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Familicide's DC is...

OVER 9000!!!

[FujinAkari]

Familicide's DC is...

OVER 9000!!!

Please don't

[Kish]

I suspect Rich of handwaving the DCs on the epic spells he wants to have cast.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Please don't

Be glad I didn't do "Familicide is Underpowered in D20".

[The Pilgrim]

I would put bets, in that case, of the enemy being Haerta. Ganonron, as we know, controlled vast armies. And Jephton... well, he just seems too crazy for any of the Order but Soon to give a second thought too.

I think just the contrary.

Haerta was, what, an uberpowerfull CE necromancer? We already have one of this; Xykon. Also, the use of the Familicide spell in OOTS was already shocking (and disgusting) enough. I do not look forward to see it's effects again.

Jephton, actually, did NOT cast any epic spells in the Darth V arc (as he himself noted after being de-spliced). We don't know much about him, or about his capabilities. That means he has some surprises to offer for the story.

Ganonron is, from my perspective, in the middle. We have seen his epic spell, but the scene was not as important or impressive as Haerta's. Was used mostly as a Vaarsuvius-ex-Machina to wrap up the Azurite Fleet plot point out of the main story. Anyway, his ability to teleport a huge army right through someone's a** could serve as an effective twist, specially in a story certered around Tarquin (warlord, large armies, etc).

Not that any of this will happen, of course.

[Boogastreehouse]

To me, they seem some of the more interesting characters we haven't been told much about. Would people like to hear more about their lives?

Meh. Not really.

I mean the Giant would probably compose a great story, because he's good at that, but he could put a great story together about anything. There's nothing particularly interesting or compelling about those three characters that makes me eager to learn more about them.

[MagusBloodsoak]

*sigh*

Let the arguing begin.

1. Let's examine the Fiends deal with V. Now, before we hear a lame retort like "you can't trust what they said, they're EVIL!" I think we basically have to, otherwise why do they need to make a deal with V at all? They can tell him they'll sell him a teleport scroll and a recharge spell scroll for 5000 GP when he's really selling his soul. So yeh, logic tells us they need to actually be honest when making the deal, especially the lawful evil one, who is all for the deal.

2. what is this deal he's offered? He's told his power will dwarf any caster who has ever lived. He's offered the 3 most powerful dead evil arcane users from the CE, LE and NE pool, and the Giant apparently confirmed that the Oracle's prediction was validated by the fiends deal, that being that he would obtain ultimate and complete arcane power. He's also told he basically can't gain XP, because nothing will be enough of a challenge (and the fiends then tell us they had considered the possibility of him fighting Xykon incredibly likely, so the Lawful Evil guy is including that in the bunch). Not to mention they are telling him he won't gain XP from killing an Ancient Black Dragon whose spell slots indicate she is at Wyrm level based on the D&D guidelines.

And let's be clear here, the ABD would mop the floor with Xykon. All she has to do is anti-magic field and have at him, and Xykon is toast. At the very least, the 2 are of comparable challenge difficulty.

3. Sure, Xykon trash talks with "they died, so they sucked", but that's just Xykon trash talking. Not to mention, what he says has no credibility because a) we see uber strong people die all the time in this comic, b) Xykon himself nearly died multiple times, so it's a bit ridiculous to suggest Xykon is some outlier of awesomeness, and c) V is promised total and complete ultimate arcane power, dwarfing anyone who has ever lived, power so high he can't gain XP off an ABD; and Xykon? He lives/d, so it should dwarf him too. More to the point, it should dwarf epic wizards like Dorukan who gave Xykon a very tough fight, and who we know "lived" at one point. V's power should dwarf Haerta, who once "lived", and who we'll get to in a second. So Xykon's taunt doesn't carry alot of credibility... in fact it carries none. More to the point, my personal feeling (and I wouldn't expect the author to admit this even if true) is that the subsequent comic starts to immediately play down what Xykon just said, and focuses on V still being very powerful, but just fighting badly. After all, V just lost at least 10-18 levels from energy drains from his 2 (much weaker) splices, and is still going toe to toe with Xykon, and ultimately losing not because of weakness of the splices, but because Redcloak and Xykon somehow know what splices are, and are thus able to combine to make him lose his focus, something that otherwise wouldn't have happened in a hurry.

4. And what do we know about the 3 splices?

Jephton we know the least about, except he's apparently an epic level, and the most powerful chaotic evil arcane user the fiends had.

Haerta is "the strongest by a large margin" and uses a spell which trumps anything we've ever seen or heard of being done in the OOTSverse ever by any magic user who lived. In addition, her disjunction was powerful enough that V knew it could one-shot the ABD anti-magic field, which requires an enormously high level to do (which is also probably the subject of an author retrospective/clarification when the other splices note "oh, yeh, disjunction was Haerta's spell.. so if anyone is wondering why we don't do something like that again, or how it was so awesome... yeh, there's your explanation, now stop nitpicking my comic"). Haerta is also described as being able to kill with a thought, which suggests a Momento Mori spell of some kind (another Epic spell of awesomeness, which would actually one shot the ABD too if V wasn't busy taunting and showing off). However the point is Haerta is ridiculously powerful, which is why the Giant got rid of her before the Xykon fight so Xykon winning could still be plausible, since he obviously wanted Xykon to win).

Ganonron is described as being able to conquer world after world, and he needs to be correspondingly powerful to survive the threats on the life of such a conqueror. You're fond of stuff Xykon flippantly says, so remember how he says he's constantly attacked by random villains, popping out of pots and so on. And he's only ruler of a city. Ganonron ruled "world after world" across planes of existence (and there's no indication these were the planes of unlimited sauces he conquered). His spell Epic Teleport trumps any spell we've seen thus far not named familicide, teleporting tens of thousands of people and their boats huge distances effortlessly. He also seems to be able to use it multiple times no problem. Aside from the 2 times he used it, you'd logically think he had to know how to do it a 3rd time, because V had no idea of the specific abjuration around Xykon's base, and for all he knew he's need it to get out again.

Could Xykon even conquer this world? I doubt it. The ABD alone would stomp him, and he was almost beaten by an adolescent Silver Dragon in the bonus strips. He lost to Soon, even Roy somehow beat him, and these can hardly be the greatest threats in this world (Tarquin and his team look like they'd be much more dangerous). Heck, he only beat Dorukan out of plot induced idiot balling. So what Ganonron did was way above Xykon's paygrade, and every indication is he is more powerful. After an energy drain and a maximized energy drain, they're still busting out 10th level spells no problem.

[Castamir]

• According to Xykon, V was channeling the "raw unlimited energies" of two chumps who didn't have the balls to stay in the game.
• XXX(SoD) trashed Xykon, RC and all their followers with ease. XXX only lost to Xykon's surprise comeback when he got back in the game.

When Xykon came back, he didn't have balls anymore either.

[GSFB]

I would buy the book if Giant wrote it, because he is a great writer and I enjoy his work. But since he himself said no, this is a moot point.

If there were many options and I got to choose one, and Giant would promise to write my choice, would I choose this? No. There are a lot of things I would LIKE to see Giant write, and this is not high on the list. I am hoping that before Giant completes all his work on this world, we at least get prequels for Order of the Scribble and Linear Guild. They are both integral to the larger story. The splices are integral only to one chapter, and only as a means to an end. As characters, they are virtually nothing. To make an analogy: they are like ingredients that go into hardware - you wouldn't write a story about iron and carbon, but you would write about the sword they forged. V was the sword. The splices were just the materials.

The other thing is, the OotS story is about one specific world (err... possibly two if you count inside the rift?). Everything we read about relates to THIS world. But the splices are from other worlds. We know Ganonron was a conqueror of many worlds - but he never conquered this one that we know of. Someone that significant would be remembered and taught about even in fighter college and people like Tarquin would mention him in awe at least once every third panel. Haerta? She's also not a local - people like Xykon would have spent decades getting comments like "oh sure, you're bad and all, but you're no Haerta." So while they may have had incredible stories of their own, epic sagas of war and death and sorrow - they wouldn't be stories of THIS world. So how could they relate other than through the one brief tie in via V?

Now, all that said, do they have potential to be integral parts of stories in their own right? Sure. And even though, as Giant pointed out, we know they end up in hell, we could still enjoy reading about the journey that brought them there (just as we enjoy Belkar, even though...). But their part in THIS story has come and gone.

[MagusBloodsoak]

Yeh, people keep forgetting this. While the OOTS world itself might be less than 1200 years old (or might not, if they use a different calender system, like we have 2000 AD), the previous world was probably much older. Plus there were many other worlds which were unaffected by the Snarl. Heck even Sabine is 2000 years old. These guys (or 2 of them at least) just seem miles beyond anything we've been shown in the OOTS so far.

[factotum]

I suspect Rich of handwaving the DCs on the epic spells he wants to have cast.

Definitely this. I dread to think what the DC would be for a teleport spell that's capable of transporting hundreds of tons of ships along with all the people and effects aboard--I reckon that'd be higher than Familicide, if anything!

[Kish]

1. Let's examine the Fiends deal with V. Now, before we hear a lame retort like "you can't trust what they said, they're EVIL!" I think we basically have to, otherwise why do they need to make a deal with V at all? They can tell him they'll sell him a teleport scroll and a recharge spell scroll for 5000 GP when he's really selling his soul.

There is a huge gap between "they have to be honest" and "they could say whatever they like and just claim Vaarsuvius' soul because they want it."

Given that they explicitly said they lied about Vaarsuvius just being the next petitioner to come along, "We have to trust what they say" seems to run into the "All Cretans are liars" paradox.

Not to mention they are telling him he won't gain XP from killing an Ancient Black Dragon whose spell slots indicate she is at Wyrm level based on the D&D guidelines.

You realize that Ancient and Wyrm are both age categories?

And let's be clear here, the ABD would mop the floor with Xykon. All she has to do is anti-magic field and have at him, and Xykon is toast. At the very least, the 2 are of comparable challenge difficulty.

...You realize that neither an Ancient black dragon with 1-3 sorcerer levels, nor a Wyrm black dragon, is an epic-level monster? And that Xykon's epic spells have an 85% chance of simply ignoring Anti-Magic Field? And that if Xykon truly has no response to Anti-Magic Field, then Roy and Vaarsuvius could easily destroy Xykon, without needing the rest of the Order, simply by having Vaarsuvius prepare it?

c) V is promised total and complete ultimate arcane power, dwarfing anyone who has ever lived, power so high he can't gain XP off an ABD; and Xykon? He lives/d, so it should dwarf him too.

Technically speaking, it only needs to dwarf the power Xykon had when he was alive to fulfill the fiends' promise, and we don't know he was even epic when he was alive. Though it does, of course, also have to dwarf Dorukan, and the power Haerta had when she lived, though not any power she gained after becoming a lich if she became a lich.

And again, three-spliced Vaarsuvius was promised power to dwarf any arcane spellcaster who ever lived. The Vaarsuvius who confronted Xykon had enough power to dwarf any arcane spellcaster who ever lived, minus more than one-third of that power.

The ABD alone would stomp him, and he was almost beaten by an adolescent Silver Dragon in the bonus strips.

Where on earth are you getting the silver dragon being adolescent?

After an energy drain and a maximized energy drain, they're still busting out 10th level spells no problem.

I give, which spells (plural) are 10th level, between Bixby's Crushing Hand, Disintegrate, and Greater Teleport?

'Cause that's an exhaustive list of the spells spliced-Vaarsuvius cast after the Maximized Energy Drain.

[MagusBloodsoak]

There is a huge gap between "they have to be honest" and "they could say whatever they like and just claim Vaarsuvius' soul because they want it."

Given that they explicitly said they lied about Vaarsuvius just being the next petitioner to come along, "We have to trust what they say" seems to run into the "All Cretans are liars" paradox.

They lied about something that was irrelevant to the substance of the deal, but there's no logical basis to assume they can lie about the deal itself, or else there's no need to be honest at all.

The rest is just some minor nitpickery that has no bearing to what I've said.

Yes, Wyrm refers to the age, and because Dragons get more powerful with age that's important. They get bigger with age too. Your point being? Your claim that the "ABD" had "1-3 levels of Sorcery" is totally off base. The ABD needs to be 15th level to cast Greater Teleport and Finger of Death (not to mention plane shift as she claimed, which would put her at an incredible 17th level, but never mind that), which is the ability level for a Great Wyrm actually. I'll leave it to some D&D expert to compare the challenge rating of said Dragon with a 27th level Lich, but I'm doubtful they'd be too far apart. And if they are, that's a pretty ridiculous flaw in the system because as I said Xykon would be ripped up by the "ABD".

You dispute this, with the claim Epic Magic has an 85% chance of breaking an anti-magic field. Believe it or not, I actually knew that Epic magic wasn't bound by an anti-magic field already... the thing is, Xykon's spells are largely useless against the ABD... Cloister? That's not going to help. Epic Mage Armour? Again, that's just delaying the inevitable, assuming it holds. Superb dispelling maybe, but even if that dispels the field (again, I'll leave it to experts to discuss) the ABD can cast said field 6 times in a row, and I've yet to see any evidence Xykon has 6 Epic Spell slots. Then factor in the number of attacked per round the "ABD" gets, and how all Xykon's fancy magic items will be useless, and the guy is going to be dust inside 5 rounds.

And please, an AMF is more dangerous in the hands of the dragon because it's a frickin Dragon. Turning the magic off doesn't bother it, because it is still a dragon, whereas V will be choked to death by the still superior Lich if he uses said spell. That's the problem here.

Technically speaking, it only needs to dwarf the power Xykon had when he was alive to fulfill the fiends' promise, and we don't know he was even epic when he was alive. Though it does, of course, also have to dwarf Dorukan, and the power Haerta had when she lived, though not any power she gained after becoming a lich if she became a lich.

You take contrarian positions that just don't seem well supported. First, it's not even clear being a Lich loopholes you from V's promise, not when you also factor in what the Oracle said. But even if I grant you that, he fought Dorukan very evenly only a year or so ago, and there's no evidence whatever of him being in the ballpark of Haerta, or even Ganonron really. The speculation Haerta became a lich is totally pointless, it's like me asking if roy had a twin brother. Who cares? As far as we know, she and Ganonron lived, heck Ganonron didn't even know anything about Lich's during the fight with Xykon.

Where on earth are you getting the silver dragon being adolescent?

It's purely a guess based on the size of the creature. Want to try your own guess? Go for it. It's pretty clearly weaker than an ABD though...

The last bit is a typo, I meant to say V cast 10th level spells after the energy drain (empowered Sunburst), though V casts s 9th level one after the maximised one too, and appears to be going toe to toe with Xykon, and his caster level is still too high for Redcloak (or Tsukiko) to overcome. I'll let someone else do the calculation, but I'm pretty sure that means V would have been capable of 10th level spells still, if Redcloak can't Dispel, or hints at it very strongly.

[factotum]

Then factor in the number of attacked per round the "ABD" gets, and how all Xykon's fancy magic items will be useless, and the guy is going to be dust inside 5 rounds.

I think you're forgetting Xykon's damage reduction--when 15 points of every attack just doesn't penetrate then the ABD's damage output gets severely truncated. Add to that his massive amount of hit points (d12 hit dice due to being undead), plus of course the fact that even if he *DOES* get destroyed he'll just come back within a few days due to his phylactery, I don't think he'll be quite as much of a pushover as you're giving him credit for.

[MagusBloodsoak]

We're not talking about whether he can come back at a later date some weeks into the future, we're talking about how he will do in the actual fight (the thing that garners XP), and I assume you agree with me when I saw Xykon gets pasted.

Yeh, maybe 5 rounds is being too generous (though remember how many attacks a Great Wyrm Black Dragon would get per round), but we can both agree Xykon is toast. This is a Dragon who casually laughs off 40d6 of damage in the first round, and then subsequently takes 20d6 of fire damage, and 45 HP's + 3d6 of Fire damage (for 3 attacks against the shield, and more if the shield isn't dissipitated by being swallowed), and is still looking in decent-ish condition afterwards. Damage reduction will help of course, but I can't see what Xykon is going to do to it.

[Mutant Sheep]

We're not talking about whether he can come back at a later date some weeks into the future, we're talking about how he will do in the actual fight (the thing that garners XP), and I assume you agree with me when I saw Xykon gets pasted.

Yeh, maybe 5 rounds is being too generous (though remember how many attacks a Great Wyrm Black Dragon would get per round), but we can both agree Xykon is toast.

Yeah, dragon vs super-epic lich of doom is obviously simple. A dragon can whack him with a claw! And... fly! And bite things! Xykon can energy drain and see what that does, then meteor swarm or drop a rock on its wings.

[MagusBloodsoak]

Huh? The Dragon just puts on an AMF, and then pins Xykon down and crushes the life out of him with multiple attacks per round, while Xykon is more or less helpless. He's not going to be Meteor Swarming anything, because there is an AMF! Not that Meteor Swarm is going to do a whole lot to the Dragon in a hurry, but he can't do it at all, because of said AMF!

[Mutant Sheep]

Huh? The Dragon just puts on an AMF, and then pins Xykon down and crushes the life out of him with multiple attacks per round, while Xykon is more or less helpless. He's not going to be Meteor Swarming anything, because there is an AMF! Not that Meteor Swarm is going to do a whole lot to the Dragon in a hurry, but he can't do it at all, because of said AMF!

If the only way the dragon can win is by using an anti magic field on an epic level spellcaster, then why didn't the Sapphire Guard just put one up in the throne room? You'd think they would have done it if defeating a level 30+ epic lich only required a amf.

[MagusBloodsoak]

I find your answer to be pretty amusing. On the one hand, I've seen you constantly make remarks along the lines of "The Giant is writing a story, asking why someone doesn't do X answers itself... the plot didn't require it". This is the exact opposite of the logic you now invoke here.

But to humour you, having an AMF which was permanent and in the throne room probably would have required some serious magic to do, and there isn't alot of evidence of especially powerful arcane casters in the Saphire Guard (witness the singular Wizard they have who knows Teleport) and would also have probably disrupted the Gate (or risked doing so), making it kind of stupid. The did consecrate the throne room though, which stopped minor evil Clerics casting spells in it properly.

[Mutant Sheep]

I have a simple view of things. Also, since this will likely never happen in comic, ever, in the history of the future, I see it as simply Class Geekery Thread-Battle Edition. So saying the Giant would do what he wants is a moot point for me to make.
Does anti magic field work on uber-epic spellcasters?

[MagusBloodsoak]

As was pointed out already, Epic Magic can (generally, I don't know where the 85% figure came from) overcome an AMF, as in the Spells will still cast from within it. But Xykon's Epic Spells are all useless offensively, and if he manages to dispel the AMF, the Dragon can recast it at least 5 further times, all while using their superior number of attacks per round to grind Xykon to Powder.

If Xykon had something like Momento Mori, then he'd be a likely winner, but nothing suggests that, and that'd make him so overpowered there would be literally no way the good guys could win.

[The Pilgrim]

*Jephton we know the least about, except he's apparently an epic level, and the most powerful chaotic evil arcane user the fiends had.

Actually, Jephton was conjured by Director Lee. Which implies that he is, thus, Lawful Evil.

[Mystic Muse]

As was pointed out already, Epic Magic can (generally, I don't know where the 85% figure came from) overcome an AMF, as in the Spells will still cast from within it. But Xykon's Epic Spells are all useless offensively, and if he manages to dispel the AMF, the Dragon can recast it at least 5 further times, all while using their superior number of attacks per round to grind Xykon to Powder.

If Xykon had something like Momento Mori, then he'd be a likely winner, but nothing suggests that, and that'd make him so overpowered there would be literally no way the good guys could win.

Maximized energy drain is epic. An Ancient Black Dragon is a CR 19 encounter, and I'm not sure how many casting levels it had.

Black dragons are the second weakest Chromatic dragons. They have 33 Strength, and that's not all that much. Its SR is only 25, which Xykon can bypass easily, and any touch spell used against it is pretty much guaranteed to hit.

An ancient black dragon isn't much of a threat to Xykon. Even if he can't only use maximized energy drain twice, that's still 16 levels the dragon is going to lose, taking down a significant amount of its health and spells.


EDIT: I can't say much about the Silver Dragon, as I have not seen those comics, but Silver dragons are roughly two levels above Black Dragons in terms of strengths.

[Renegade Paladin]

I probably would just because they seem interesting and I know Mr. Burlew is a skilled enough storyteller to make it worth reading. But given the volume of his business, publishing a book about every group of minor characters in the comic is a tad bit impractical.

[pendell]

I would not buy the book. We've already had one book to explore the nature of evil (Start of Darkness) and it was extremely good, the best of all the books. But I think we've explored the nature of evil quite fully through Xykon and Redcloak's backstory. Watching evil characters murder their way across the prime material plane until they are consigned to the hellfires they richly deserve has no appeal to me.

ETA: WRT Xykon vs. a dragon, I remind you that one of the earlier books had an additional section in which he confronted a silver dragon in the same tower from which he pillaged the halfling's diary.

Spoiler

Show

He and Redcloak were defeated, and the story would have ended there if one of the mooks had not landed a lucky critical with an axe. Xykon showed his gratitude by summarily killing him.

ETA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
*high fives Kish*

Now I really wish I had posted my response on why I agreed with Kish :P
*High fives kish also* .

Congratulations. You and Spod are now in the same elite group of posters whom the Giant has called out as being spot-on right about something.

Respectfully,

Brian P.