Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Starscream]

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And, big and, if this does lead to a little smaller stories and less "OMIGOD you're THE Doctor" then I'm all in favour of it.

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That's how I feel. While I adore the Doctor, and he certainly does deserve a certain amount of notoriety for saving the whole of creation so many times, I feel this has been a big problem in the new series.

In the classic series, pretty much no one other than his recurring enemies and allies knew who the Doctor was. He was just some strange man who bumbled into odd situations, dealt with them as best he could, then left.

In the new one, half the cosmos seems to run away screaming from his name, while the other half bows down in reverence. Sure, it makes sense from a logical perspective (he must be a historical figure in countless civilizations), but from a storytelling perspective it gets in the way. To everyone else he's a god or a demon. To us he's still some strange man who bumbles into odd situations, deals with them as best he can, then leaves.

What's especially ridiculous is that earth, the planet he spends more time saving than any other and is now littered with former companions and associates, seems to be the only one where most people have never heard of him.

In short, I think he's gotten too big for his britches in recent years. If the goal of this season was to provide a good explanation for the Doctor trying to stay low profile in future episodes, I'll be happy. I want more "Who is this weirdo with the funny screwdriver?".

And less stuff that makes him sound like a Chuck Norris joke. "No, not the Doctor! His name burns in the fires of a thousand nebulae! Armies flee from his mighty fez! His bowtie once shot a man in Reno just to watch him die! He gave Thor a spanking for not cleaning up his room! The Weeping Angels weep because he yelled at them! He uses Dalek paste to fill his jammy dodgers! Mommyyyyyy!"

[SuperPanda]

If it's a minority, it's one shared by me! And I was right! This finale was lacklustre. There should be a T-shirt saying "Sunken Valley, Eldan and Superpanda were right". Although, "Thufir was right" is also a good T-shirt. As is "Curly: Master Slashlady".

I haven't really chimed in on this yet, so putting me on a T-shirt would be a bit premature.

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To begin with I'll need to say it that I fully agree with "It didn't feel like a finale" comments, and while that's good in someways (S4 was too much of "a finale" for me) its bad in others. The episode tugged the line between good and bad and left me squat in the middle.

Good: The fractured history universe was awesome, if clearly drug induced, and that deserves honorable mention. I personally loved the callbacks to previous years such as seeing Charles Dickens again with the same actor from 2005 playing him. I like that the Doctor references past companions while talking with Dorian even if I'm not as pleased about which one he chose. Pick Sarah Jane, Donna, Susan, even Genny or Martha for Pete's sake. Let Rose stay dead.

The use of the Tesselecta was well done, but I'll have more on that when I have a section devoted to "plot." It was only one episode long which is good in that they didn't have enough material for 2 episodes, but bad because they had too much material for one episode. This has happened a few times in Moffat's run where the pacing will go too fast and spoil and otherwise great build up.

He used a bowtie to save the universe. Bowties are cool!

Bad: Biggest complaint of the epsiode is Rory. Why does his memory get wiped? Rory, with full knowledge and awareness of what was going on, could have added such a wonderful layer of drama and development to the story. I could see him having a scene sitting in the pyramid with the Doctor and talking to him about why he should or shouldn't die and then having to give the same talk to Amy. Rory has this wonderful and frustrating potential to truely be the companion that the Doctor needs with him, the one who will keep him in check and tell him "no" when he's gone too far. I had hoped he'd finally become that after "The Girl Who Waited" but now they take all of development away form him.

I was getting tired of "action Amy" before hand, and this is partially because the actor for Rory and the character for Rory are both so much more interesting that their counterparts in Amy. Karren's been doing a fantastic job with her acting, but she hasn't had moment's like the clenched jaw and trembling hand in this episode. She's good, and I prefer looking at her in a skirt to Rory in a skirt, but I get the feeling that the man playing Rory is the better actor of the two.

The interesting set pieces are really nothing more than set pieces, in fact the reveal at the end makes the entire episode nothing but a set piece for the development of River Song, which is frustrating because the drama in those scenes felt rather flat.

Continuity questions: If he was the tesselecta the whole time, why did he visible age, including hair growth? (Answer: he chose to so as not to alert the silent of the fracture universe who aren't part of this universe at all as to a plan to stop them in this universe which they wouldn't be able to do anything about since they are all in that universe.)

If he was the tesselecta, how did he appear to regenerate? (answer: Simple humans and part timelords can't tell the difference between a light show and a regeneration.)

If silence will fall when the question is asked, why did Dorian ask the question at the end of the episode? (answer: to get a giggle out of the audience with a pun that is almost 50 years and running. Either that or maybe he was just getting a"head" of himself).

Why does Amy remember the aborted timeline at all? (answer: they needed to fit a reveal in somewhere).

When did that conversation happen? (Answer: it appears to be in a brand new timeline because Amy is coming off from the Finale while in the previously established timeline it should have been after The God Complex and before Closing Time, but the dialogue doesn't mesh with that). Unfortunately this answer means that many great episodes "The Doctor's wife, Girl who Waited, God Complex" "Almost people, Rebel Flesh" didn't happen in this timeline.

Plot: This episode felt very much as though it was originally a 2 parter but then someone realized that they didn't have enough content for a 2 parter and cut out things in order to fit it to 1 episode. The set pieces give it that feeling. The Doctor telling Churchill the story felt like a genius was to connect the important bits of the episode we missed into the second half of the story.

The Tesselecta. As an answer to how the Doctor survived it was well played and well done. As an answer to the build up around the Doctor's Death however it was irritatingly predictable. For one thing the sheer amount of build up about the Doctor's Death and how everyone in the Universe knows that he is dead along with his own Tennant like moping towards the end of God Complex/Closing time make the reveal of the Tesselecta really flat. If the Doctor had been shown looking for a way out of this trap, actually fighting for his life at different times then it would have been wonderful. Having part of the episode where he tries to go back for the Flesh! doctor only to find it couldn't regenerate would have been wonderful too.

I still think that the "right" course of action with the build up would have been to actually kill the doctor in that scene and then had the Tesselecta or the Flesh Doctor pose as him to take the companions looking for a way to rewrite time and save him. Next season could have involved all the chaos and destruction that happens when he is removed, it could even have involved the Silence accepting that it too must fall.

It was a good plot, ruined but Moffat straight out deceiving the audience as often as possible rather than building a layer of mystery to it and then hyping things up beyond his ability to pay it off. It was Moffat's TinkerbellJesusDoctor moment (though I've felt the River Song arch had a few of those). He created a delicious and wonderful buildup, and his answer was disappointing even though he'd prefaced it wonderfully. Of the Two, I actually preferred Tinkerbell to Tesselecta, because while Tinkerbell looked stupid as can be the season long arch had led up to it while this season had spent a lot of time going "Pay not attention to the Tesselecta behind the curtain".

Given that the Doctor was the Tesselecta the whole time, it makes River's actions less heartwarming and more childish. From River's point of view I understand it completely it means that she absolutely does love him, however it also means that she doesn't have faith in him. None of us watching the show believed that the Doctor could really be dead, I don't think many of those who had faced him before would believe it either. River is convinced that she kills him so utterly as to think that he would walk into the trap, knowing what is happening, without a plan of any kind. More over, the entire plot of the episode is to set up that River loves the Doctor more than the entire universe combined.

Now the editing between the two in the kiss was wonderfully done. The film work that went into this from the CGI to the camera angles and cuts were all A+ work. The Acting was spot on through the whole piece. The team making this episode were all on the top of their game and it is objectively a great piece of cinema, however the writing left me disappointed in how many "better" options it left out and how many cheap moments it tried to capitalize on.

The Question: Doctor Who?

We've heard that Moffat plans to split the next arch over two years with only 6 episodes each time, that means his reveal of the Doctor's name will take place on the 50'th aniversery finale along with "the fall of the eleventh" or Smith's regeneration (so it would appear from the dialogue).

I believe the 12 regeneration of the Doctor is suppose to create the Vale-yard but I'm not sure. For that to make sense, Galifrey must be back since the Vale-yard actively travels back into previous Doctor's lives.

In Season 4 it is revealed that the Doctor's name is lost, burning across the "Medusa Cascade" which is something the Master references in Season 3 as a rift the Doctor sealed. I'm almost certain that the Doctor's name was used somehow to seal the Time War in its lock, it would fit the dialogue from the RTD whoverse very well and would make the question actually menacing. Knowing his true name would allow someone to unlock the time war and release Galifray in both her terror and majesty back upon creation. With what we've seen the Daleks and Timelords capable of, that would be worth killing the Doctor to prevent. Given the 50 year aniversery its a fitting plot as well. Suitably epic.

On the other hand, back in Silence of the Library and Forrest of the Dead, where it is revealed that River already knows the Doctor's name, Moffat went on record saying that he thinks revealing that name to the audience was a very bad idea because it didn't matter what his name was, it would always be a let down after all the time waiting for an answer. I mean, would anyone here forgive a writer for revealing that the Doctor's name was actually Bob?

Also I am very very disappointed that the Father and Child plotlines of the season didn't have anything to do with the Finale. Genny would have made a great moment where the Doctor changes his mind and can't allow himself to die because she's in danger, like wise having Rory break time by stopping River and having 2 of him in the same place could have been an awesome twist which I was truly hoping for.

Its a very long spoiler: My thoughts in synopsis

It was a good and fun episode that could (should) have been much better than it was. It was fun to watch for the probably drug induced awesomeness of it, but begins to fall apart once the rest of the brain starts thinking about it.

If Moffat hadn't said that he was writing more complex and deep stories which the audience needed to pay attention to. Paying close attention to this episode, and most of his episodes this year, lessened my enjoyment of otherwise fun fluffy TV,

He over hyped it. Moffat's season long hype is as bad as RTD's Finale Epic overdrive for me. Like RTD before him he gets himself over his head and doesn't know how to recover from it this time around.

It was fun and I'm not going to stop watching the show, but I am disappointed. Blink, Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Girl in the Fireplace, Eleventh Hour, Time Crash, Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead, and Curse of the Fatal Death all set my expectations of Moffat so high that he was bound to fall short sooner or later. Now that he's had his low season for me, I'm eager to see him bounce back.

[Sanguine]

Also, your theory was that everything went wrong because the Doctor was dead, not because he wasn't, as I recall.

True. Quite frankly my theory is only accurate if you word it in the vaguest way possible: "The events at Lake Silencio cause time to go wibbly."

On the matter of the Doctor's name; I thought we all knew it was Theta Sigma?

[Philistine]

{Scrubbed}

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The fractured history universe was awesome, if clearly drug induced...

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This is just a matter of personal curiosity, but why are drugs apparently so many people's default assumption here? As John Cleese famously said of writing for Monty Python, "You can't write good comedy when you're stoned, because when you're stoned you think everything is funny." The same principle applies to more serious material: if your state of mind is such that you think everything is awesome, you end up with crap like Tinkerbell Jesus Doctor or...

I suddenly find myself desirous of a specific, one-word name for Curly-specific spoilers. "Curlers," perhaps?

CURLERS AHOY! (S4, S4.5)

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... or planets that "form a perfect alignment" (which makes no sense and is never explained), or Master Race (which didn't even go anywhere, making it not only stupid but also an utter waste of time and VFX budget), or False Dilemma Target Practice, or an utterly pointless and contrived death & regeneration.

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Biggest complaint of the epsiode is Rory. Why does his memory get wiped? Rory, with full knowledge and awareness of what was going on, could have added such a wonderful layer of drama and development to the story. I could see him having a scene sitting in the pyramid with the Doctor and talking to him about why he should or shouldn't die and then having to give the same talk to Amy. Rory has this wonderful and frustrating potential to truely be the companion that the Doctor needs with him, the one who will keep him in check and tell him "no" when he's gone too far. I had hoped he'd finally become that after "The Girl Who Waited" but now they take all of development away form him.

...

Why does Amy remember the aborted timeline at all?

When did that conversation happen? (Answer: it appears to be in a brand new timeline because Amy is coming off from the Finale while in the previously established timeline it should have been after The God Complex and before Closing Time, but the dialogue doesn't mesh with that). Unfortunately this answer means that many great episodes "The Doctor's wife, Girl who Waited, God Complex" "Almost people, Rebel Flesh" didn't happen in this timeline.

Curlers ahoy!

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It was established in the previous season that Amy remembers the events of multiple timelines - possibly due to the fact that she grew up in a house that had a giant crack in space-time in its walls. In fact, that was the key to the resolution of S5 (which also never happened in the New & Improved Official Timeline). Well... that, and some fun and creative usage of time travel (which had been sorely lacking under the previous regime). Rory, OTOH, can remember being The Last Centurion if he concentrates, but it's never established that he recalls anything else from S5 - like how he ended up as a Nestene Auton in the first place, for example. It may also be notable that Amy's recollection isn't perfect this time, either: she knows she's looking for "Rory," but doesn't recognize "Captain Williams" despite (presumably) quite a bit of contact. Anyway, it's timey-wimey. So maybe they'll both remember all of S6 come the premiere of S7, or maybe it'll only be the Doctor whose personal timeline includes all that. No way to know as yet - which seems like a pretty unsurprising problem for a time-travel show to have, come to think about it. Especially a time-travel show that actually takes advantage of time travel.

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If he was the tesselecta the whole time, why did he visible age, including hair growth? (Answer: he chose to so as not to alert the silent of the fracture universe who aren't part of this universe at all as to a plan to stop them in this universe which they wouldn't be able to do anything about since they are all in that universe.)

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I'll answer your question with more questions! First, was the Doctor the Tesselecta the whole time? Second, why does the Doctor ever visibly age?

In his personal timeline, S6 covers 200 years of his life - and that's before River manages to break Time itself, creating a pocket reality in which time literally cannot be measured (and could thus subjectively be anything from microns to epochs). So why didn't the Doctor visibly age between "God Complex" and "Closing Time"? Presumably, Time Lords age as much or as little as they choose, when they choose - making all these questions moot.

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If silence will fall when the question is asked, why did Dorian ask the question at the end of the episode? (answer: to get a giggle out of the audience with a pun that is almost 50 years and running. Either that or maybe he was just getting a"head" of himself).

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Asking the question, by itself, isn't enough. It's specifically the asking of the question in circumstances where the Doctor is compelled to answer - and answer truthfully! - that poses the problem, apparently because he can't for some as-yet unknown reason.

[The Extinguisher]

I enjoyed it. Yes, there were problems, but it's hardly the first finale with problems, and it's way better than Tinkerbell!Jesus!Doctor.

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Also, I'm rather happy that the Doctor had it all planned from the start, because it gets rid of the whole "The Doctor knows he is going to die and only invites his three most recent friends to see" thing that drove me insane.

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If silence will fall when the question is asked, why did Dorian ask the question at the end of the episode? (answer: to get a giggle out of the audience with a pun that is almost 50 years and running. Either that or maybe he was just getting a"head" of himself).

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No, no, no. Remember what Dorian said. "Silence must fall" is a better translation. It's not the question that matters, but the answer.

[SuperPanda]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I am aware and was being more polite about it than him. I've stated several times that I love Doctor Who and I've loved most of Moffat's past work, but this season has underwhelmed me.

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This is just a matter of personal curiosity, but why are drugs apparently so many people's default assumption here? As John Cleese famously said of writing for Monty Python, "You can't write good comedy when you're stoned, because when you're stoned you think everything is funny." The same principle applies to more serious material: if your state of mind is such that you think everything is awesome...

I used the drug excuse because the fracture-verse was combined with a number of factors that made no sense and got no explaination either. Planet's aligning is a very common plot point in supernatural stories and certainly is a lot more normal than American Pyramids with steam train engines or VW bug air balloons.

The the second is more awesome doesn't change the fact that it made no sense at all. I loved it, but I wish it had been more than "Quick look at the pretty thing"


Curlers ahoy!

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It was established in the previous season that Amy remembers the events of multiple timelines - possibly due to the fact that she grew up in a house that had a giant crack in space-time in its walls. In fact, that was the key to the resolution of S5 (which also never happened in the New & Improved Official Timeline). Well... that, and some fun and creative usage of time travel (which had been sorely lacking under the previous regime). Rory, OTOH, can remember being The Last Centurion if he concentrates, but it's never established that he recalls anything else from S5 - like how he ended up as a Nestene Auton in the first place, for example. It may also be notable that Amy's recollection isn't perfect this time, either: she knows she's looking for "Rory," but doesn't recognize "Captain Williams" despite (presumably) quite a bit of contact. Anyway, it's timey-wimey. So maybe they'll both remember all of S6 come the premiere of S7, or maybe it'll only be the Doctor whose personal timeline includes all that. No way to know as yet - which seems like a pretty unsurprising problem for a time-travel show to have, come to think about it. Especially a time-travel show that actually takes advantage of time travel.

I am very aware of this. At the same time, it was annoying that the character I'd most like to see get development got sidelined completely yet again. Also, the Silent seemed to know about Rory's past in Season 5 when they talked to him.

"Rory Williams, the man who dies and dies again. Die one more time." Or something to that effect. A very interesting and well done character keeps getting sidelined when he really doesn't need to be sidelined. (God Complex, Almost People/Rebel Flesh, and Here).

Universe resets don't upset me as much as character resets in Who, mostly because the characters central to our story tend to remember the past events and grow from it. I dislike what seems to be the writers trying to prevent Rory from growing because he has so much room to develop into a particularly awesome companion, like the Science teacher who traveled with Hartnell, Rory could be someone who goes to bat for the Doctor when he really needs help and stands up to him when he's gone to far or is acting cowardly. He's been on the cusp of being that person since he became the last centurion, but it never quite happened.

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I'll answer your question with more questions! First, was the Doctor the Tesselecta the whole time? Second, why does the Doctor ever visibly age?

Those questions don't really do much to make me feel better about that question, which was really just a "Do they really like having Smith with a beard or is there some deeper meaning to that?"

And the question of whether or not he was the Tesselecta the whole time I'd answer thusly: If he wasn't they really should have shown the point that he figured out he could switch, because that was what we were watching the episode for and could have been a great moment.

The plot and drama only work if he was the Tesselecta the whole time and was trying not to let anyone know. If he wasn't it takes a good plot which is only disappointing because of the amount of hype leading into it and washes it out with what the forums call an asspull. I think Moffat is better than the latter.

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Asking the question, by itself, isn't enough. It's specifically the asking of the question in circumstances where the Doctor is compelled to answer - and answer truthfully! - that poses the problem, apparently because he can't for some as-yet unknown reason.

[/QUOTE]

I posited my own theory on that which seems to hold up with RTD's who-verse, that being that the Doctor used his name somehow to seal the time lock, and as such, if anyone else knew his true name they would be able to unseal the time war. I mean, honestly its either going to be that or Timelords have some mythological thing about them that if you know their true names you can control them like puppets, which wouldn't be interesting at all. The second sounds more like "Planet's aligning".

[Kobold-Bard]

I probaly sound a bit dim, but what's the issue some people have about when the convo between Amy & Tiver at the end happens?

[factotum]

No. Octavian said she was in prison for killing a good man. River said it was the best man she'd ever known.

Although that begs another question--Octavian's order were guarding Demon's Run *against* the Doctor, and working with Madam Kovarian. How come Octavian suddenly considered him a good man? And who exactly imprisoned River for the crime, especially since they must have known River's history?

[Xondoure]

Well,

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I'd bet good money Sunken Valley despised that episode.
I can see his point.
Now, the episode is pretty good in and of itself. The writing on the small scale is very good, in the character interactions and the strangeness and whimsy of the initial setting. Some minor issues perhaps, and it could perhaps have done with being longer, but generally good in that regard.

However it falls down in resolution of the ongoing arc. For starters, Moffat lied to us. Only relevant to those who watch Confidential, but that doesn't really matter - the point is he did it. I can appreciate the pedantic distinction in saying "Yes, that was really the Doctor," since it was, albeit inside the Tesselector, but "and yes he is really dead" was a bare-faced lie which I do not appreciate in such a context. The intent behind such a comment can only be to provoke speculation, and the theorising fans do not appreciate being told all their speculation was for naught because the information they were working from was inaccurate.
And then there are the points left unanswered - how did the Silence take control of the TARDIS in the last series and cause it to explode? And why did they do so? How and why did the Silents create the Necron TARDISes? If they were just Silent ships, that'd be fine, but in The Lodger the Doctor said it was someone's attempt to build a TARDIS, which is something that requires more explanation. Then also there are the details of how fixed points in time work. A little bit of expository technobabble would have gone a long way to fixing that up. It's possible to make fixed points in history? How? If it is possible to do so, well, why can't the process be reversed? And how fixed exactly are they in terms of fine detail?

Now to the newly established bit of lore. The Fields of Trensilore, where the question will be asked. OK, firstly the Silence seem a bit confused. It says Silence will fall when the question is asked, but in actuality they were working to cause Silence to fall to prevent the question being answered. Which I suppose does mean there would be silence when it was asked, but it's a rather odd way of looking at the phrase. Also, if the Doctor was dead, surely the question wouldn't even be asked at all?
For that matter, while I predicted the possibility that the question was the Doctor's name, that doesn't work so well with how they built it up. Supposedly this was some secret only the Doctor knew, important enough that the Silence wanted him dead to ensure it was never revealed, and he came close to agreeing with them. What could be so devastating about his name?

Other points... Kovarian was mostly wasted in this episode, and the scene of Amy killing her was unnecessarily long. The Silents weren't that impressive either. The Silents work less well as a direct threat than as villains in the shadows, subtly manipulating events. Also, though, no villain or monster holds up particularly well to being completely sidelined by the plot, as they were when the Doctor and Amy and Rory went up to the distress beacon.

This episode was, in many ways, something of a Big Bang mark 2, but it didn't work as well as the original. Same basic problem, same quirkiness and whimsy, same feeling of small actions having massive effects as regards the fate of the entire universe, but while Big Bang solved the immediate problem and acknowledged that it left some things unanswered, The Wedding of River Song acted as if it had given us all the answers, but just skated past all the ones it hadn't (Some of which were the same unanswered points from Big Bang).

Now, I realise I've gone on at considerable length about the bad qualities of this episode, which belies the fact that I did actually enjoy it. As I said, on the lower level of the simple events and the character interactions, it was generally brilliant, it just fell down in the resolution of the arc.

So how could it have been salvaged? In my opinion:

The answers to the beacon River set up should have had more significance. As it was, well, it was just her saying it, which doesn't really carry the meaning. We should at very least have gotten to hear some of them, and see the impact on the Doctor, lifting him out of his 'resigned to death' vibe that he's been building up over the past few episodes. Of course, that depends on him actually being resigned to death, which brings me to my next point - no Tesselector on the beach. Maybe some means of rewriting the fixed point in history would still feel like a cop-out, but it would be better than what they actually had, especially as regards the Doctor's character arc. The problem should have been solved, somehow, on top of that pyramid, in that weird, broken reality, possibly with the help of some of the people responding to the beacon.
That would also eliminate the need for the "Look in my eye" mislead. Because, why would he bother lying about having just told River his name? He didn't have to say anything to explain what it was he'd told her. And why would he be that bothered about concealing the fact he was going to survive from Amy and Rory? It's not like anyone else was there to overhear. Except the audience, which obviously was the actual reason for it, but things not making sense in-universe is inevitably worse for the audience.

I could probably go on, but that's enough for now. I should really give Confidential my full attention.

Rule No.1 Moffat Lies. Whats hilarious is rule no.1 was the true bad wolf of this season and everything else was just there. But as Moffat is undoubtedly discovering the audience doesn't appreciate being lied to. Whats weird about this finale is everything works, all of the pieces fit perfectly into place and yet… the writing just doesn't deliver.

If I were going to handle this season I would have cut the pirate episode moved Night Terrors to where it had intended to be and written a two parter for the finale. Then we could have at least been given enough time to make use of the buildup whereas here the whole thing post churchill just felt rushed and flat. As is its only a mediocre episode which is unacceptable for a finale.

That said, it does set up future events wonderfully. And I like the reopening of the Medusa Cascade theory posted before as to why that question is so dangerous. It also makes me wonder if this is something RTD and Moffat cooked up together in preparation for the 50th anniversary.

[KillianHawkeye]

Here's a question regarding the gap between The God Complex and Closing Time: do we REALLY know if it's been 200 years?

Sure, it seems like it has been SOME time, but a specific amount or specific age never gets mentioned. And since the whole part from the beginning of The Impossible Astronaut turned out to be a big gambit from The Doctor to trick everyone into thinking he was dead, I don't know if we can trust his original statement that he was suddenly over 1100 years old.

Is there any more information about this, or is that one statement really all we have to go on? (Don't forget Rule #1!)

I guess I just have a hard time believing they'd skip over such a large amount of time without us getting to see any of it. I mean, what the heck could he have been doing for all that time by himself?

[Sanguine]

I mean, what the heck could he have been doing for all that time by himself?

Exactly what he said he did: Going around saying goodbye to all the friends he's made. He's been traveling for some 900 plus years; it would take a while.

[Eldan]

Eh, it was all natural enough until he said "That's why they call it 'live chess'." Just your average taunting of the opponent. Goading him, as was relevant, since the Doctor needed him to reveal the relevant information.

One sentence would have been sufficient. "Ooh, watch out, your Queen's up to 14'000 volt now!"

[Archonic Energy]

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No, no, no. Remember what Dorian said. "Silence must fall" is a better translation. It's not the question that matters, but the answer.

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also i thnk the end wasn't THE question, just A question being asked from that head person...

think more "Doctor. Who?" than "Doctor who?"

[Aidan305]

Anyone seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu2JNfHG9A?

It's the script that a group of kids wrote to get turned into a Dr Who short.

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I suspect that Random Ood could possibly become an internet meme.

[Kato]

I probaly sound a bit dim, but what's the issue some people have about when the convo between Amy & Tiver at the end happens?

Well... my said something to the extent of 'I just saw the Doctor die' which would imply it happened just after the previous events and after time was fixed. That means 90% of the season didn't happen and... well, they changed time. To be honest I can't recall the last time Who CHANGED time.
Or it was much later after God Complex which means she saw the Doctor die some months ago.

[SmartAlec]

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Curious to see if, with the worry about the Doctor's true identity, we're seeing the writing move back to something like the Cartmel Masterplan. I was reflecting that Smith's Doctor reminded me most of McCoy's.

[Kobold-Bard]

Well... my said something to the extent of 'I just saw the Doctor die' which would imply it happened just after the previous events and after time was fixed. That means 90% of the season didn't happen and... well, they changed time. To be honest I can't recall the last time Who CHANGED time.
Or it was much later after God Complex which means she saw the Doctor die some months ago.

Oooooooooooohhhh....I get what you mean now

I think it is after God Complex, but because of Amy's crack () she remembers the Broken Time reality, so for her it happened months ago but she also knows that it just happened from the Doctor's perspective which has brought it all back (just saw him die = alt Amy just saw him reset time & die).

Make sense?

[Sunken Valley]

Anyone seen this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHu2JNfHG9A?

It's the script that a group of kids wrote to get turned into a Dr Who short.

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I suspect that Random Ood could possibly become an internet meme.

That was awesome! Gives me hope for the young minds of tomorrow.

@Philistine: Curlers

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The planets weren't in perfect alignment. They were every planet in the universe with a Z-neutrino core in the centre of them. The cores were needed as fuel for the reality bomb. Perfect sense.

Now to fully explain my game/contest/challenge/project.

I got this idea when reading an interview with Moffat on Let's kill Hitler (which was about to come out). Moffat lamented on the Dr Who forums being filled with "bedside trolls" and how he was afraid to go into the Dr Who forums because he didn't want to see the abuse they'd give him like they gave Rusty (which he also didn't like) A bedside troll is described as one who is constantly on the computer in their bedroom, ranting incoherently about how Moffat and his show sucks and saying they could do better ("when they obviously can't" says Moffat). I felt that was a bit rude (although I am not a bedside troll myself and this forum has a low troll quotient). I was going to do this anyway regardless of whether Season 6 sucked or not (which the arc did).

Anyway, this will be a Community Based project in which the playground will sit down and make our attempt at an at least average alternate season 6 (better overall quality than season 2 counts as average). There won't be a conventional show-runner. I'm considering a council of three posters here to be "showrunners" one space is for me (my idea) but the other two are for 2 volunteers. "episodes" will be done as summaries (slightly smaller than Curly size), not detailed works (otherwise we'd be here forever). Anyone can volunteer ideas for eps or create a whole ep themselves. Now to set the groundrules.

13 episodes (although not really, see below).
3 two parter eps. One of which has to be the finale (12&13). Another (7&8) has to be River-centric with the ep 7 cliffhanger as River's reveal. 3rd one can go anywhere.
One of the eps (before ep 7) has to be Doctor's wife (which needs no editing)
Another ep (11) has to be Closing time (which needs minor editing).
The season has to have reference (although not directly including) the question, with the viewer finding out at the end that it's "Dr Who?".
Otherwise that's it. Any elements, monsters, plot points or ideas from the canon season 6 can be stolen for this. In the same fashion nothing from S6 can be taken. Your choice writers.

Let the initial idea generation begin!

[KillianHawkeye]

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The planets weren't in perfect alignment. They were every planet in the universe with a Z-neutrino core in the centre of them. The cores were needed as fuel for the reality bomb. Perfect sense.

Wow! Too bad they mentioned anything like that and in fact used the phrase "perfect alignment."

[Dogmantra]

"episodes" will be done as summaries (slightly smaller than Curly size), not detailed works (otherwise we'd be here forever).

Uhm.

Trying not to let my opinion of Moffat get in the way here, but isn't that rather like playing Rock Paper Scissors to prove that a Poker player could have done better? If you're not going to film an entire series (which makes sense) then at least write full-length scripts and storyboards taking budget, time and any other constraints into account.

[Thufir]

Although that begs another question--Octavian's order were guarding Demon's Run *against* the Doctor, and working with Madam Kovarian. How come Octavian suddenly considered him a good man? And who exactly imprisoned River for the crime, especially since they must have known River's history?

What gave you the impression they were Octavian's order?

One sentence would have been sufficient. "Ooh, watch out, your Queen's up to 14'000 volt now!"

Yeah, no. Moffat's version was better. Because the concept does need to be explained to the audience. Your line wouldn't be adequate for that. Moffat's was, and excluding the final sentence of it, it was all perfectly natural that the Doctor would say those things to his opponent.

To be honest I can't recall the last time Who CHANGED time.

...
Are you serious about that?
They change time all the time. The Doctor travels through time and space righting wrongs. We've specifically had the point made in one episode that "There are fixed points in time, events which must always happen the same way. This is not one of them." (Emphasis mine)
Yes, sometimes things are timey-wimey, people get named after themselves, read transcripts of conversations they're still having, know how to save the universe because they saw themselves do it centuries ago, etc, but there's still a lot of the series which revolves around the Doctor changing things.

I assume that link Aidan305 posted was to Death is the Only Answer? In which case, yes, I've seen it, as they showed it in Confidential. It was good, though you could kind of tell it was written by children. It felt good in a kind of Axe Cop way - things happen because they're cool or funny, and they just happen, with little set up. But Doctor Who is pretty well suited for things like that.

KillianHawkeye, spoiler and mark those Curlers!

@^: It kind of makes sense, since his idea is that we could do better on the overarching plotline rather than the fine details of dialogue and so on.
Of course, that fine detail counts for a lot and I disagree with his premise anyway.

[SuperPanda]

That was awesome! Gives me hope for the young minds of tomorrow.

@Philistine: Curlers

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The planets weren't in perfect alignment. They were every planet in the universe with a Z-neutrino core in the centre of them. The cores were needed as fuel for the reality bomb. Perfect sense.

Now to fully explain my game/contest/challenge/project.

Anyway, this will be a Community Based project in which the playground will sit down and make our attempt at an at least average alternate season 6 (better overall quality than season 2 counts as average).

I'm in "your" camp from your earlier comments and I think the overall quality of the season is above Season2 of NuWho already, I think the quality of the story arch is above Season 2 of Nu Who as well. Heck, while the build up around her annoyed me I like the Sue of this season more than the Sue of Season 2 of Nu Who also. (though the build up of Rose didn't really begin to irk me the way River's did until Season 4. River is a much more likeable character than Rose and I find that what ruined Rose was the character more than the storyline while River has the opposite problem. River is a fantastic character stuck in a storyline too cliche for her.)

So, my response to your idea would be "Moffat already succeeded."

Though, since that's not very fun. If I was the show runner here are the changes that I'd have made to the plot of the season while still keeping the core events of the story the same.

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In day of the moon the girl would have appeared to Regenerate as before, though there would be a faint sound of mechanical whirring.

Might have canned the pirate episode entirely, Night Terror's does work better where it sat.

In A Good Man Goes to War, have the young soldier girl be River instead of the Baby, have the baby being used as bait for a trap which the Doctor can no possibly avoid (ransomed against his appearance in Utah).

Have the Pond's find out about the child's distress in Let's Kill Hitler (Amy could easily have filled most of River's role in that story, the Tesselecta could still have been after River for killing "a Good Man" though it would be a different "Good man" than the audience is expecting. The Tesselecta's self alteration appearance is shown to look like regeneration as it "lets off X technobable compound to balance Y"

Girl Who Waited would not have had Amy build a sonic screwdriver, simply because I personally didn't like that. Everything else might have stayed the same.

In God Complex either A) Rory works out that it is faith and not fear and the Doctor follows as before, or B) The doctor works it out and is kicking himself about it and then Rory talks Amy out of her faith in the Doctor to save her.

Closing time would have worked the same.

In the finale: Amy and Rory are hunting down the Doctor to make him hand himself over while River is trying to stall/stop them. Rory corners the Doctor and is about to hand him over to the Silence when River kills him (kills a Good Man who had gone to war). The Doctor figures out he can dupe the Silence and get Amy back her child afterwards and towards the end of the episode. Final shots are of Amy getting her child back and turning River over to the priests for the murder of the Last Centurion. In a scene where someone is telling the audience why the doctor had to die, a mysterious figure (next season's big bad) revives Rory saying that he will still be useful).

Biggest changes: River's character development remains more sane, her first meeting with the Doctor is still to come, her relationship with him still has room for development.

The child in danger stories culminate in a set piece of the finale, making for a subtle build up that the audience may or may not see coming (ala Vote Saxon). A Good Man is subverted from the Doctor to be Rory which echoes the way Amy's romance story is always subverted sound like the Doctor when we all know she means Rory.

The Baby becomes incidental to the plot, and in all likelihood Amy would be busy being a Mom and couldn't travel without a kid in tow. Likely way around would be to have the next season begin ~ 5-6 years later in canon so that Amy and Rory wouldn't look that much older yet and the kid is old enough to be poking things in the TARDIS thoughout season 7. The child can even still be revealed to be River in the next season by having her get lost/stranded in the Gamma forests, which would retroactively make A Good Man all the more Timey Whimy and explain the little girl even more.

This is the season as I'd rather have seen it, there are problems and flaws with mine. For one thing we'd never get Holy Roman Emperor Churchill doing dances with Cleopatra.

I'm aware I didn't follow your rules, but truth be told, I liked each episode individually it was just some of the season archs and how they tied together which bothered me, so rather than re-invent the Wheel I took what was already there and tweaked the things I'd like to see changed.

The only episode in my version that would have needed more than minor reworking is the finale, and that's more because my final plot diverges too much.

[Eldan]

I had a different idea for changing the story:

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A Good Man Goes to War: River being the soldier works. However, do not reveal that she is River. She has a different face, here. She grew up as a normal soldier, basically, but is just intrigued by the doctor. The baby is a flesh decoy, but Madam Kovarian doesn't even have an original, really. Or rather, she has some baby, but that Baby isn't Amy and Rory's either.

The Tesselecta's Regeneration does indeed look like Regeneration in Let's Kill Hitler.

God Complex: Rory talking Amy out of her faith is a great idea. If done right, it would really feel almost like an emotional kick to the gut for the Doctor and the audience.

Now, the finale. The Ponds are looking for the Doctor from their secret pyramid organization. Amy not remembering Rory feels almost the same as the last finale with the Centurion, I'm not sure it's necessary.

Here's my change, though, in the shooting scene:
It is not River in the Space Suit. It's the Tesselecta, looking like River in order to convince the doctor to come close enough. The Silents and the Tesselecta were working together. They told the Tesselecta crew about something horrible that will happen in the future if the Doctor lives, and about the many crimes he has committed. River-Tesselecta shoots and kills the Doctor. But now, the timelines are changed. The Real River makes a remark along the lines of "Wait, I remember! This isn't me!" The Tesselecta reveals itself.
Then comes the second twist. The dead Doctor is also the Tesselecta. The Doctor convinced the Tesselecta, somehow, that he should live and that they do is wrong. And so, the Tesselecta destroys itself and the crew goes home.

The finale would be a two-parter. McGuffins need to be found to make River remember. The Ponds have to search the weird parallel world in a steam train to find and rescue the Doctor, who has been imprisoned by Churchill.

[Kato]

...
Are you serious about that?
They change time all the time.

Well, I was serious but I guess it was wrong and poorly phrased. Yeah, the Doctor often influences the time stream (well, we all do, duh) but he doesn't go back to change things that already happened (to him) in general. Crossing your own timeline and stuff.
But even with that, yeah, he changes time. He changed time explicitly in Girl Who Waited, he changed Amy's past in Big Bang (among a lot of other stuff), and I guess a hell lot of other times. He doesn't do it over and over again to change every single little bad thing but yeah, he does it more often than I acknowledged. It was a stupid comment with not enough thought put into it. Though this time... well if that WAS the Amy just after the Doctor's death the whole season ceased to exist which would be quote a change to time. (timey wimey bla)

[Weezer]

An interesting little official recap of River's timeline, following her chronology and with voice overs by Alex Kinsgston. Thought you'd enjoy it. http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2011/...her-story.html


Also, I don't see where everyone is getting the idea that this season's events got overwritten/erased in the finale, could someone explain it to me?

[Kobold-Bard]

An interesting little official recap of River's timeline, following her chronology and with voice overs by Alex Kinsgston. Thought you'd enjoy it. http://blogtorwho.blogspot.com/2011/...her-story.html

As much as I hate River Song, that was pretty cool.

Also, I don't see where everyone is getting the idea that this season's events got overwritten/erased in the finale, could someone explain it to me?

Amy said she just saw the Dr. Die in her convo with River at the end, implying Lake Silencio happened in the immediate past. However this is at odds with all the episodes we saw after the Season opener since that happened after Lake Silencio.

However I honestly think that's just wrong. It wass either a mistake in the script, or (as I believe) Amy's crack means she remembers the alt-timeline from the finale, so even though the convo is happening after the Dr. dropped them off in God Complex, she has the memories of alt-Amy, so to her it just happened again.

Edit: Except she doesn't say that. She just says he's dead & talks about killing Kovarian in the alt-timeline, so it must just be the memories.

[Weezer]

I interpreted it more as her extrapolating from the fact that the Doctor left them with no explanation that he was going to his death. Seems to fit the facts more than one line from someone who was upset. You can't always take dialogue literally.

EDIT: Ahh okay, that makes more sense. I was just confused because I didn't see any indication of a rewriting of time.

[Androgeus]

Planing on watching some Who? Don't forget to consult your map!

[factotum]

What gave you the impression they were Octavian's order?

You're suggesting there are two entirely different groups of religious solders who wear identical uniforms at around the same time period?

[Aidan305]

You're suggesting there are two entirely different groups of religious solders who wear identical uniforms at around the same time period?

What, standard camo?

Anyway, Octavian's a Roman Catholic.

Planing on watching some Who? Don't forget to consult your map!

Why do I suddenly have the urge to play a game of Mornington Crescent?