Magic the Gathering XI: When this thread has 50 or more pages, transform it.

[MammonAzrael]

Wow, some massive shake-ups!

Modern is effectively a new format...again. I'm honestly not that bothered by this, as I'm happy to see Wizards taking a very proactive approach to trying to keep their new format fun.

While I absolutely love me some Fact or Fiction (I freakin' loved it when I cracked one in a draft), it'll be interesting to see how it fares unrestricted in Vintage.

Don't play Legacy, but I imagine a lot of decks just became a lot more viable. Hello again Goblins!

[Suedars]

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Black looks pretty weak in Limited. Its removal is terrible. The -2/-2 Enchant for B is fine, but aside from that all it's got is an Edict which usually aren't that good in Limited (and there's a token subtheme in W and B to make it worse), and a narrow spell that can't kill Werewolves, Zombies, or Vampires.

Actually now that I look through things, it seems like the removal in general isn't that great this set. That -2/-2 enchantment and R's 2R for 3 damage, 5 if morbid, Instant seem like the only really good removal. A bit odd for a horror set.

U looks like it's going to sucker a lot of people in who don't realize how much of an additional cost exiling a creature card from your graveyard is. I expect to cast Stitched Drake on turn 3 maybe 25% of the time when it's in my opener. In reality it's probably more of a 4 or even 5 drop, leaving some mana open for a trick. I suppose that makes it somewhat good at unflipping werewolves though.

Green seems quite good. Its creatures are actually aggressively costed for once, and it's got pretty good pseudo-removal/tricks in Prey Upon and Ambush Viper.

Also, now Legacy is a real format again!

[Fable Wright]

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Black looks pretty weak in Limited. Its removal is terrible. The -2/-2 Enchant for B is fine, but aside from that all it's got is an Edict which usually aren't that good in Limited (and there's a token subtheme in W and B to make it worse), and a narrow spell that can't kill Werewolves, Zombies, or Vampires.

Actually now that I look through things, it seems like the removal in general isn't that great this set. That -2/-2 enchantment and R's 2R for 3 damage, 5 if morbid, Instant seem like the only really good removal. A bit odd for a horror set.

U looks like it's going to sucker a lot of people in who don't realize how much of an additional cost exiling a creature card from your graveyard is. I expect to cast Stitched Drake on turn 3 maybe 25% of the time when it's in my opener. In reality it's probably more of a 4 or even 5 drop, leaving some mana open for a trick. I suppose that makes it somewhat good at unflipping werewolves though.

Green seems quite good. Its creatures are actually aggressively costed for once, and it's got pretty good pseudo-removal/tricks in Prey Upon and Ambush Viper.

Also, now Legacy is a real format again!

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Black looks rather bad, now. I mean, they had Duress, Inquisition of Kozilek, and Despise floating around at the same time, as well as Geth's Verdict, Go for the Throat, Dismember...many, many things. Now? They get absolutely nothing good at uncommon, the only major reasons to run black floating up at mythic and a few rares. As a black mage, I must say: Horror block, I am disappoint. Ascend into Darkness better have something.

Also, Blue is becoming more powerful now. Aggressive low-cost creature and good synergy with other cards in the set- U or U/G seems like the draft colors to run, given that blue has three runable bounce spells at common.

[BobVosh]

Are you drafting triple Zen or ZZW? Because Triple Zen is the fastest limited format you will ever play. Red, black and white are all really strong aggressive collies. Blue is too slow, and green is too expensive (they are playable, but I don't like them.)

Removal is very strong, landfall +2/+2 is amazing, and cheap creatures dominate. I won so many games of the backs of plated geopedes and steps lynxes. Aggressive is the way to go.

If you're drafting with worldwake, It's a little slower, but still pretty fast. Blue is pretty strong, because you can often be the only one drafting it.

Man, now I want to do a Zen draft.

Well I bought a box of zendikar and got 7 friends coming over to draft. So that is the format. We are probably going to do quad zen actually, cuz why not. I swear, why is it every set I do a draft in I need to do red-black lol.

Last draft I did that I didn't was invasions.

[Fable Wright]

Well I bought a box of zendikar and got 7 friends coming over to draft. So that is the format. We are probably going to do quad zen actually, cuz why not. I swear, why is it every set I do a draft in I need to do red-black lol.

Last draft I did that I didn't was invasions.

Because they have removal and aggressively-costed creatures?

[The Extinguisher]

Well I bought a box of zendikar and got 7 friends coming over to draft. So that is the format. We are probably going to do quad zen actually, cuz why not. I swear, why is it every set I do a draft in I need to do red-black lol.

Last draft I did that I didn't was invasions.

Yeah, so be prepared to draft a lot of aggressive things.

On an related note, I've been doing some ZZW drafts online. I miss that format. It's going to rotate soon, so I need to get as much in as possible. Also, way to many people draft green online. It's weird.

[Suedars]

Well I bought a box of zendikar and got 7 friends coming over to draft. So that is the format. We are probably going to do quad zen actually, cuz why not. I swear, why is it every set I do a draft in I need to do red-black lol.

Last draft I did that I didn't was invasions.

Why quad Zendikar instead of the usual 3 pack format?

[BobVosh]

Why quad Zendikar instead of the usual 3 pack format?

Why not? I have 36 packs and 8 people.

[Bucky]

Why not? I have 36 packs and 8 people.

Because 4 packs is just asking someone to draft a deck with 6 (insert degenerate aggro card here)s and 3 (insert insane uncommon tempo spell here)s in a format that's already known for degenerate aggro and tempo cards.

[tgva8889]

Birthing Pod suffers from incidental Tempered Steel hate (and vice versa) in the form of sideborded artifact destruction.

Yes, but unlike Tempered Steel it can win through artifact removal. Birthing Pod isn't the only thing those decks do, it just makes them much better than they normally would be.

Upside to the Extended bans: Extended may or may not actually be a format now! I mean, as much fun as the second coming of Caw Blade might have been, I'm glad that no one who has to play Extended will have to face that terrible format.

I like the idea that rather than unban any cards, Wizards just took out the ban hammer and said "You know what, screw this format" and banned everything. Hey, at least Zoo is still playable!

[Suedars]

Pod actually is pretty bad when it doesn't have the pod since it has super awkward topdecks due to half the deck being either drops or utility toolkit one-ofs.

[Mirrinus]

Zoo is still playable, yes, but losing Green Sun's Zenith does hurt the best version of Zoo in Modern, which played 4x GSZ to fetch 1-ofs like Dryad Arbor, Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, etc.

[tgva8889]

But a huge number of the decks you needed those cards against are also much, much slower now, so you don't need to play Zenith for them. It makes the deck weaker, but Zoo isn't dead.

Is it? Maybe that's something that's fixable or something that can be worked through. Good to know, though, as it makes Ancient Grudge a much more playable sideboard card.

[Zach J.]

Hello,

I am trying to build a casual deck around the Greater and Lesser Werewolf. So far the only other cards I plan to include are Sorceress Queen and maybe Lure. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to creatures or spells that would work well with the werewolves?

[Chen]

How is modern going to be rotating? Is it always going to be from 8th edition on? Or will it change like extended (or whatever that format after Legacy is)?

[Mirrinus]

Modern doesn't rotate at all. It's a new Eternal format.

[Bucky]

Hello,

I am trying to build a casual deck around the Greater and Lesser Werewolf. So far the only other cards I plan to include are Sorceress Queen and maybe Lure. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to creatures or spells that would work well with the werewolves?

How are you planning on winning the game?

Also, Contagion Clasp means that anything with a counter on it will die eventually. Also, Mystifying Maze is a trick with Lesser Werewolf, because you can use it to rescue the werewolf after it dispenses its counters. Finally, if you like these werewolves, take a look at the Shadowmoor wither creatures.

[Suedars]

Hello,

I am trying to build a casual deck around the Greater and Lesser Werewolf. So far the only other cards I plan to include are Sorceress Queen and maybe Lure. Can anyone offer any suggestions as to creatures or spells that would work well with the werewolves?

Are you looking for a werewolf themed deck, or to specifically use Greater and Lesser Werewolf? Because if you just want to play Werewolves I'd recommend the new set Innistrad which comes out in a week and has a bunch of werewolves that'll be much easier to base a deck around than 2 cards.

[Maho-Tsukai]

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Looks like my hopes of reanimator in standard have just been dashed. While the Grimorie is TECHNICALLY a second "reanimation spell" it's just too slow to work as a reanimator card in standard. Hopefully the second set will provide us with the second reanimation spell needed to make the deck work so I can live out my dreams of cheating out Jin Gitaxis.

[Silverlich]

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Looks like my hopes of reanimator in standard have just been dashed. While the Grimorie is TECHNICALLY a second "reanimation spell" it's just too slow to work as a reanimator card in standard. Hopefully the second set will provide us with the second reanimation spell needed to make the deck work so I can live out my dreams of cheating out Jin Gitaxis.

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Grimore is not a reanimation spell. Grimore is Wizards looking at self mill decks and handing them a steaming pile of chocolate chip cookies.

[Fable Wright]

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Looks like my hopes of reanimator in standard have just been dashed. While the Grimorie is TECHNICALLY a second "reanimation spell" it's just too slow to work as a reanimator card in standard. Hopefully the second set will provide us with the second reanimation spell needed to make the deck work so I can live out my dreams of cheating out Jin Gitaxis.

...Outside of standard, you can do that just fine. A trick I learned from a friend that works in standard, though, if you're willing to make your deck G/W/B: Birthing pod+ low-cost green accelerators. Khalni hydra, which is a cheap way of getting CMC 8. Then, fetch out Iona, and then pod that up to Jin.

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And then go bring back Iona from the graveyard; she's too good to let rot.

[The Extinguisher]

Okay, so how does one go about building a Birthing Pod deck? I love the card, but I'm terrible at building toolboxes outside of EDH. Because I'm looking at Modern now, and I really, really want to play Bloodbraid Elf and Birthing Pod in the same deck. Jund Pod seems really good.

[tgva8889]

Modern does seem much more interesting now that it's a bit less a world of combos.

[LansXero]

Would you guys say a G/W Humans/Weenie deck is going to be at least FNM viable in standard after Innistrad comes? There are some really neat cards coming out and Ive been a GW guy ever since Ravnica, but... Vampires look really tough, and birthing pod decks seem uncomprehensible to me.

Different question: What would be better for a playgroup that wants to start their decks to go into FNMs? : Attend Innistrad 2-headed giant events for the boosters (dont think we`ll win) then fill up the missing pieces with singles off the internet, or skip the fee for the event (around 22$ each person) and just buy singles? Does the promotional card have any resell value? (Although it IS a human lord...)

[Frankelshtein]

Would you guys say a G/W Humans/Weenie deck is going to be at least FNM viable in standard after Innistrad comes? There are some really neat cards coming out and Ive been a GW guy ever since Ravnica, but... Vampires look really tough, and birthing pod decks seem uncomprehensible to me.

Different question: What would be better for a playgroup that wants to start their decks to go into FNMs? : Attend Innistrad 2-headed giant events for the boosters (dont think we`ll win) then fill up the missing pieces with singles off the internet, or skip the fee for the event (around 22$ each person) and just buy singles? Does the promotional card have any resell value? (Although it IS a human lord...)

I'm planning on building a G/W Human deck, and while I doubt Humans will be the next big deck, I can hardly see an aggresive Human deck being bad.

As far as acquiring cards goes, I've always found drafts are the way to go if you don't mind occasionally picking up cards you want for your non-draft deck. Regarding the prerelease, I always find myself going to the typical Sealed event. The promo card is typically worth less than their non-promo counterpart, but some turn out to be fairly valuable anyway (Wurmcoil, Emrakul). I'd defenitely recommend attending the prerelease event. The social aspect alone is worth the fee, for me at least.

Speaking of G/W drafting, I recently drafted for the first time in months.

First pack...
Pick 1: Honor the Pure
Pick 2: Overrun
Pick 3: Overrun

I also ended up with four Stormfront Pegasi, and a plethora of other good weenies. Needless to say, it was a fun draft. I also made an amazingly good trade, too.

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My:
Ib Halfheart
Sword of Vengance
Birds of Paradise
Leyline of Vitality
Troll Ascetic
Warren Instigator
*some other card*
*yet another card*

His:
Solemn Simulacrum
Solemn Simulacrum
Solemn Simulacrum
Phantasmal Image
Inkmoth Nexus
Glacial Fortress
Boggart Ram-Gang (foil!)

The guy had just obtained two Solemn Simulacrums on top of the one he had, and he had drafted a Phantasmal Image. Now, I've been working on finishing my Standard deck, and I've always wanted a Simulacrum or three (mostly because tgva keeps ranting about how good they are in EDH :P ), so I showed the guy my binder, and he liked much if what he saw. We made the trade, both walked away happy, and later that night I looked up the prices on a whim. It was... a pleasant surprise, to say the least.

[Maho-Tsukai]

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Yeah, true, but birthing pod=/=reanimator and I don't plan on going to any other official formats except standard and sealed/draft since FNMs are usually standard format. Anyway, with my hopes of reanimator gone I'm not sure what I will be playing. My ideal deck would be anything with black in it that is NOT vamps.(I don't like vamps due to being, well...vampires..and I just don't like anything vampire related due to stuff like twilight, underworld ect.. making them one of the biggest cliche's of current media.).

With the loss of sign in blood, inquisition, duress ect... mono B and U/B control take a big slap to the face, and U/B gets another slap to the face from losing Beleren. Sure, we have Lillina for the same CMC as Beleren but repeatable card draw she cannot do, and that was what Beleren was mostly used for. I suppose Bloodgift Demon could become a psudo-Phyrexian Arena if the format slows down but I don't really see that happening and as a result he's just too slow.

Orzhov(W/B) control is starting to look somewhat viable, though. Between Lillina, Fiend Hunter/Oblivion Ring, a plethora of mass removal choices and other such things W/B could be better then U/B, though again I am not sure if W/B can survive as of now. Also, U/W control and Esper control both seem to be in a slightly better position then U/B control. Especially Esper since it can run Lillina and Giddeon, and pay for Forbidden Alchemy's flashback cost.

Also, how viable would a Rage Extractor/Phyrexian mana-abuse style deck be? I know it won't be winning any big tourneys, but all I'm looking for is a FNM-level deck so if such a deck is doable for that level of play I'd probably brew up a list since I always loved the idea of Phyrexian mana.

Oh, and one more question, with the passing of groundswell and other such pump spells, is Infect in ANY color-combo even viable anymore? I suppose U/B Infect focused around Tez may still have some fight left in it, though without preordain and many of the other cards U/B control lost to rotation it just dose not seem as good as it was. However, if a viable infect deck that runs black or blue is still possible I would like to know.

[Duos]

You can do a Rage Extractor deck, easy.

4xRage Extractor
4xPhyrexian Metamorph
4xTezzeret's Gambit
4xSpined Thopter
4xGitaxian Probe

Then fill the rest of the deck with card draw , control, and burn. Go U/R.

[Suedars]

Dismember pretty much killed U/B Infect since it kills all your important threats for 1 mana with no downside.

Rage Extractor isn't going to be viable post-rotation. Naturalize effects will be too common, and the deck suffers from the fact that until you hit your 5 drop you're playing a bunch of Limited cards. It's janky even for FNM.

W/B control has always had the problem of mostly being removal and finishers without much card advantage, so you're terrible in the control mirror and sometimes just stall out on your draw vs. agro and lose out of nowhere.

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Post-rotation mana probably won't be able to support Esper Control. Bloodgift Demon is a Consecrated Sphinx that costs 1 less and is about 1/100th as good. He draws you less cards, makes you wait longer for those cards, dies to Dismember, and costs you life.

Liliana is much, much stronger than Jace Beleren. You just have to build around her. If you're binning flashback cards she gets value with her + ability, and unlike Jace she also defends herself. You can set up a pretty powerful Instant-speed draw engine with Think Twice, Forbidden Alchemy, and Snapcaster Mage. U/B control just mainly lacks a turn 1 play now that Inquisition, Duress, and Preordain are gone (Ponder isn't playable in control), but the format might be slow enough that that's not a big deal.

[tgva8889]

The real question is what control mirror? I'm not convinced there is a "control" deck currently. Control loses a lot of options due to rotation.

[Suedars]

What does U/W lose? All I can think of is Jace Beleren, Colonnade (though other decks lose their manlands too), and Preordain. Add in some pick-ups from Innistrad and it'll remain viable. And I still think the UB deck I outlined in the spoiler has potential.

Edit: Oh, and Firewalker for the board, but Timely provides enough RDW hate as is.