OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

[Adeptus]

The Giant's take on how the huge can of worms that is D&D is spot on IMO. To quote a friend of mine with 20+ years of GM experience "Any GM worth his salt tinkers with the rules".

Treating everything outside the SRD as optional material to be used, subverted or adjusted it exactly how I would do it as well, rather than taking it as holy writ.

[Caractacus]

Poor Durkon.

Thor must be using the same technology as these guys with the same problem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FFRoYhTJQQ

[Dandria]

Ah, tha old Cleric's Feather Fall! Sir, you're a genius!

[Mantine]

One of the absolute funniest strips in a long time. Also, I think just about every time Thor shows up he is hilarious. Great strip.



Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic.

There are countless other examples. These things happen all the time in literature. What you are talking about happening at Mount Doom would of course be ridiculous, because it would be anticlimactic for the end of the trilogy. This isn't the end of the OOTS, however, just mid-battle, and is maintaining the tension and the suspense. The characters will show their inner strength plenty by adapting to these challenges. They haven't failed to have inner strength just because they can't predict everything that will happen. They are finite beings, after all, not gods. That makes them a lot more "human" and interesting then if they just kick straight ass all the time, and to be honest I like them more because of it.

Agreed.
Let's just hope that Roy won't lose his fight because Thog "suddenly finds a long-lost +5 sword buried under the sand".

I'm responding to you because you seem most reasonable, while other posters kind of missed the point or exaggerated my words in a way i didn't mean them.

[tcrudisi]

I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?

Also, the cleric feather fall bit had me literally laughing out loud. It was one of the best OotS jokes in a long time. I was literally wondering, "What the heck is he going to cast?" Then a heal? Oh man, so brilliant and so Durkon.

[Blisstake]

Agreed.
Let's just hope that Roy won't lose his fight because Thog "suddenly finds a long-lost +5 sword buried under the sand".
I'm responding to you because you seem most reasonable, while other posters kind of missed the point or exaggerated my words in a way i didn't mean them.

When you say things like that, do you really wonder why responses to you are "exaggerated?"

[Lunever]

Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

[The Succubus]

I've been giving a little thought to this and the most straightforward answer seems to be the likely one - the Linear Guild are not stupid.

A recurring boss in a computer game will have essentially the same skills and attacks as it did the first few times you fought it, maybe with a very slight variation. This is because a computer game boss is usually designed to be nothing more than a speed bump on the way to a final goal. It makes for a dull predictable challenge that's not particularly exciting.

Dull, predictable and not exciting do not make for good webcomic reading *coughdominicdeegancough*. An unexpected attack from the Linear Guild forces the Order to think and react in unexpected ways (cat + belt, unleashing Amun Zora, the portable Koboldic arrow dispenser) and keeps things lively and interesting.

If the above is too hard to follow, let me put it another way. The Linear Guild reads TV Tropes (probably what drove them to evil in the first place). They make a careful note of all the things a recurring BBEG is supposed to, then hurled it out of the window.

[OracleofWuffing]

I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?

Yeah, Heal doesn't remove negative levels.

Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

A ditch or a trench would have provided cover to further Enervations and long-range attacks. A bagel would have solved all their problems from the get go, or is just a comedy cherry-on-top of the list.

vvv Uh, that, too, I guess!

[ericgrau]

Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

"Holy" sounds like "holey", full of a hole or holes.

[Mantine]

When you say things like that, do you really wonder why responses to you are "exaggerated?"

Not really, since that's not the same or an excuse to exaggerating things in ways that misses or falsifies the point.

[rewinn]

...Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic. ...

Why would it be unusual for magic-users with centuries to ponder their warfighting problems to defensively mine their boundary river or to develop a way to punch through a wall that has been a known issue also for centuries?

Elrond and Saruman were really smart (...not necessarily wise, but that's another issue ...) and had thousands of years of battles from which to identify combat issues needing to be worked on. LotR is told from the POV of low-technology peasants, so of course the use of tripwires and bombs would seem amazing; sort of like how children during WW1 might have reacted badly to aeroplanes invading their sceptered isle.

[pendell]

The same place Elan is hiding his rapier. They are twins, after all.

:thinks about it:

Sir, I would like to place an order for a truck pallet of brain bleach. Does Oookadook sell it?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Barstro]

If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

Or read the forums for speculations and learn the Sliders version, where EVERY possible action does happen.

Not everything needs to happen on-screen, not everything needs to be foreshadowed. If we knew exactly what was going to happen in the future all the time, DnD wouldn't come with dice.

Really, this idea some people have that I'm obligated to give my characters a fair fight at all times is bizarre, and I can only assume that it comes from people transposing their experiences in D&D to the strip.

Unfair fights are exactly what I always received when I played.

Great comic.

[Vectner]

Great strip, glad to see Durkon back. If I were Durkon, I might start looking for a more attentive god.

Oh and Giant, you are on fire! I read through the comments and love your replies.

[Tobrian]

Man, Thor's customer service is terrible.

Oh come on. Screw you, Thor.

If this was a D&d game, this is the point where I would be yelling, "gamemaster arbitrariness!"

Also, unless Nale cast Enervation literally in the same round that Durkon cast Heal on Elan and Elan babbled at Durkon, then Durkon needs to react faster. The idea of Death Ward is casting is before you are hit with a drain! Or if Durkan had depetrified Haley instead of casting Holy Smite, Haley could have shot down Sabine while Durkon put Mass Death Ward on everyone. Durkon just has no grasp of tactics, I guess. That's what Roy is for.

Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

"Donut" would have worked, too.
It wasn't a very good pun, but it was appropriate to Elan's INT and WIS.

[writinwater]

Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher... estimating Nale/Elan at a very optimistic minimum 150 lbs, and not taking anyone's equipment into account. Otherwise... we are looking at a 24 or higher strength ? On a succubus rogue ?
Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Almost as much as V obviously being far too dumb to memorize even a single "Dispel Magic".. or conveniently failing his Will-save against "Plane Shift"

[Tobrian]

Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?(snip)

Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Almost as much as V obviously being far too dumb to memorize even a single "Dispel Magic".. or conveniently failing his Will-save against "Plane Shift"

Narrativium at work. (Of which the Rule of Cool and Murphy's Law are sub-sections.)

Or, if we want to be rules-lawyerish about it: maybe Sabine wears a belt (or other item) of giant strength. As long as it's not a chastity-belt...

Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

There's a difference between
a) things happening arbitrarily with no logical reason other than "otherwise the plot wouldn't work" (also known as an Idiot Plot, or "any plot that would be resolved in five minutes if everyone in the story were not an idiot"), or
b) things happening that the protagonist has no explanation for at the time it happens but which has a logical reason to be there.

[rbetieh]

Heh, durkon is defeated by bunions.

[ThePhantasm]

Why would it be unusual for magic-users with centuries to ponder their warfighting problems to defensively mine their boundary river or to develop a way to punch through a wall that has been a known issue also for centuries?

It isn't unusual, just as it wouldn't be unusual for Nale to be able to aquire a relatively inexpensive magical item. You are actually arguing my point.

If you are worried about my use of the term "inexplicably" that shouldn't be interpreted to mean "Tolkien pulled it out of his butt" but that "Tolkien doesn't explicate what the magic is or how it was acquired." To read it as the former would be to read my post in a negative way that isn't warranted by anything I said or responded to.

There's a difference between
a) things happening arbitrarily with no logical reason other than "otherwise the plot wouldn't work" (also known as an Idiot Plot, or "any plot that would be resolved in five minutes if everyone in the story were not an idiot"), or
b) things happening that the protagonist has no explanation for at the time it happens but which has a logical reason to be there.

My post doesn't really have anything to do with idiot plots. Are you clarifying my point or trying to refute something I said?

[ORione]

Loved the "Clerical Feather Fall" spell. It reminds me of the "Clerical Sleep" spell that was regularly invoked in my own game. It required a specific material component - namely a mace to the back of the head.

Either that's a really flimsy mace, or it should be a focus.

Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher...

Vaarsuvius has a strength penalty, yet can carry Durkon, armor and all, while flying. I think weight limits do not count while the carrier is flying. In OotS, anyway.

[Gilphon]

I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.

[otakufan]

The 'Cleric's Feather Fall' was absolutely perfect!

Seems as a non-native speaker I just don't get Elan's take on Holy Word. Ditch? Trench? Bagel? Cany anyone explain please?

This may have been mentioned already, but the word 'holy' (divine, sacred, etc.) sounds just like 'holey' (describing something that fundamentally is a hole, like a ditch or trench...or possesses one, in the case of a bagel).

Elan, in his lovable idiocy, mistook one set of meanings for the other. Rather than the spell Holy Word, he thinks Durkon was going to threaten Nale/Sabine with a word about holes.

[Adeptus]

Anyone wonder how "Miss Succubus" can even fly with Nale clutched close to her (or aerially bull rush Elan into the tower wall in #805 ) ?

Normal succubi have a strength of 13, but flyers routinely need to keep at light load to fly at all... so either the twins are utter lightweights (as in "paper maché" ), or she has a Str of at least 21 or higher... estimating Nale/Elan at a very optimistic minimum 150 lbs, and not taking anyone's equipment into account. Otherwise... we are looking at a 24 or higher strength ? On a succubus rogue ?
Nevermind her grappling and pinning Elan while still airborne to kiss him against his will, while flying in #805 or back in #793.... Odd, to put it mildly.

Some of the physics (and biology) in the OotS universe just work differently. Celia the (non tiny) sylph is also able to carry Roy without trouble. Goblins are medium sized and so forth.

[Mantine]

I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.

As Sabine herself said "we can't fight a cleric without a spellcaster". Then, kapow, problem solved.
Apart of the "bad storytelling" (which was never brought up), I believe they do qualify as DE's, albeit low level ones.

[Qwertystop]

As Sabine herself said "we can't fight a cleric without a spellcaster". Then, kapow, problem solved.
Apart of the "bad storytelling" (which was never brought up), I believe they do qualify as DE's, albeit low level ones.

How is it a DE for a high-level partial caster to have a wand?

[Mantine]

How is it a DE for a high-level partial caster to have a wand?

It isn't. That's not the point.

[Sith_Happens]

I think this discussion has become mired. I believe that most of us, regardless of our opinion on the acceptability on certain events in LotR, agree on the main point, which is that neither Nale pulling out that wand nor Durkon's spell fizzling qualify as Deus Ex Machina, and that even if they did, it still wouldn't be bad storytelling.

Of course Durkon's spell fizzling wasn't a Deus Ex Machina. "Deus Ex Machina" means "god from the machine," while Durkon's spell failed because his god needs a better answering machine.

[Karoug]

Something is very fishy here.

Let me elaborate: in the same strip Durkon casts 'Heal' with no problem whatsoever. Also, never before (if I remember correctly) did the angels have trouble understanding his accent with regard to spell names, until now. I don't believe this happened for no plot-related reason. This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

Two likely candidates, having the magical capacity to pull this, would be:

1)the Directors: the imp already warned Sabine to back off from the fight, as he believes the Linear Guild cannot win this, and the Directors obviously need them alive for some reason, as is implied in their last conversation.

2)Malack. Ok, I have no real evidence to support the following, but something is definitely off about him. He is not seen in the arena, so he could be lurking anywhere, and being buddy-buddy with Durkon all this time could be a ploy to learn Durkon's spells and develop a strategy on how to sabotage them effectively. What doesn't fit is that he probably wouldn't work for the Linear Guild (except to advance some unrelated plan -possibly Tarquin's?).

If we follow the logic of TV-Tropes and some metagaming, Malack would be a Checkhov's gunman, waiting to strike and reveal the whole subplot of the arc. Tarquin is no fool and has his people everywhere around.

[Ingus]

A partial unrelated question: is every issue commentary a collection of unstoppable mass-guessing and/or rulelawing?