General Exalted Discussion Thread VII: Playground Eternal Essence

[aetherialDawn]

I think that it might be best to call it a draw, although it has so far already given much interesting food for thought. And since I'm adding in some of my own thoughts, who am I to talk? So long as it stays civil and doesn't prevent other questions from arising if needed, I could enjoy watching just Tavar and Gensh work this out for a long time yet! Participating is a side benefit.

Modern Solars seem to have large themes of ancient glories and ancient mistakes, mixed with personal heroism.
The 'Personal' part does in one way make them unique - they are not tied to other sources in the same way as Abyssals and Infernals are, both in part defined by their servitude (or rejection thereof... Or in the case of Infernals, figuring out that the Yozis are crazy.) Solars are defined by their utter and complete freedom - Sidereals are bound by Heaven, Abyssals by Oblivion, Infernals by the Yozis, Dragonblooded by the Realm (or Lookshy!), Alchemicals by the State, and the Lunars, while semi-free, could be said to be bound by the world around them in a sense (including the Wyld) given their particular adaptive/copying charm/knack set.

Solars don't have to deal with any of that. It removes a lot of the barriers, which can lead to freer characters. Yet ultimately, it is both easy and interesting to be able to define a character. A Solar player has to really work to make bindings that his Solar willingly takes up, things that make him more than a floating powerful force with little reason to act. The other splats have forces to define their very self-image against; Solars, to a great degree, do not. I don't really think that's a good thing - because you can have a Dragonblooded Lost Egg to capture so much of that, and to sacrifice one of the key factions of the setting to fill that role of freedom leaves too much floating free, it's not tied together. Much of the reason that the setting is interesting is because Sidereals/DBs have power, providing a central (literally Central, in fact) force to define the setting around. Solars as they are have great difficulty providing that.

I think the ultimate argument I've made here is that freedom from ties by dint of their power is a legitimate theme, and one that Solars possess. But it's not one that is easy to build a truly good setting around, and that is why I am glad that the Realm and the Sidereals have so much power. Without them, things would fly apart. Would they fly apart into a diffuse perfect world? Maybe, under the Solars. But it isn't a world that's easy to play in...
...Without the Great Curse driving the Solars to become each other's problems. The Great Curse isn't necessary for that, of course. I don't know what to say on that argument. But the Solar Deliberative was more than just Solars, and that's why it could hold together a setting (albeit one I find less compelling than the Usurpation and the setting that resulted from that.)

[Sanguine]

While they can certainly be used to aid mortals, they're not specifically about elevating the masses, and they would more commonly see use in a young Solar building a private army.

Look at the Lore training Charms. Definitely designed for use in elevating the masses.

[Drascin]

Drascin basically hates Solars because the exist, have power, and have free will.

Yep, totally the reason right there. Certainly not because I dislike one single splat always being thrown in my face as the heroes and protagonists of the game while the written examples are near-uniformly jerks, while everyone else gets treated as orcs for the glorious Solars to righteously beat into a pulp (I've had people seriously debate at me that Dragonblooded do not really count as Exalted in the setting agency sense and are there just to make something decently strong to slaughter, for heaven's sake). And of course not because the whole line is basically written so that Solars can Do Stuff and everyone else is just orbiting around the Solars.



Doesn't help that the theme of Solars as seen by most people appears to be, primarily, "I'm more important than the world itself", which is a sentiment I associate with villains, not heroes. I remember when somoene in a forum told me of a secondary sig Solar (Twilight caste) from 1e, who instead of going out to conquer the world and give it wedgies, since he'd always been a humble blacksmith, decided to start small and simply help his town. So he stayed, and improved the life of people in the town, and made weapons for other passing Exalts that looked like decent people, none of that I will be King!" ambition - just a dude who got power and wants to use it to help, starting with the people he cares the most for. And I said "hey, a Solar I can sympathize with! Awesome!" Sadly, not half an hour later, there were eight different replies saying that yeah that had existed but that was because writers were derp, that someone like that would have never have earned a Solar Exaltation, and that he was a terrible example of a Solar because he had "no ambition".

If most Solars are jerks and then some of the few ones that aren't get explicitly called out as being "terrible Solars", what exactly is a guy meant to think?

[Tavar]

Gesh, not so much that we're cluttering the thread as that I don't think I can really give the best arguments. There are some good one's on the official forums, and while people aren't as civil, there's often very interesting things thrown out. Honestly, I'd rather have the discussion there, as there are more people with much greater knowledge about the setting than me. Suffice to say, I disagree with most of your points, and believe that you are either missing key aspects of the world, or whitewashing the events.

Yep, totally the reason right there. Certainly not because I dislike one single splat always being thrown in my face as the heroes and protagonists of the game while the written examples are near-uniformly jerks, while everyone else gets treated as orcs for the glorious Solars to righteously beat into a pulp (I've had people seriously debate at me that Dragonblooded do not really count as Exalted in the setting agency sense and are there just to make something decently strong to slaughter, for heaven's sake). And of course not because the whole line is basically written so that Solars can Do Stuff and everyone else is just orbiting around the Solars.

The only people I know who get treated as orcs to be beat up by the Exalted in the standard setting are Fair Folk, demons, and gods. The first two often deserve it in some respect, because that's the narrative role they occupy. The latter may or may not, depending on the characters involved.

Still, if someone argues that DB are orcs for Solars to kill, the proper response is to not hate Solars, any more than if someone suggested that when you see a kitten, to throw it into a dog-fighting cage match the proper response would be to hate dogs. The person is wrong, but that doesn't mean that you should take the opposite side entirely.

Also, I was going to make a snarky post where I compare your argument to the common argument that Solars are all jerks, that will try to destroy the world. Honestly, I've seen just as many people hold that opinion,

As for your first complaint, they are protagonists and heroes. So are Sidereals. So are Lunars. So are Dragonblooded. They are also villians. As are Sidereals. As are Lunars. As are Dragonblooded. I'm pretty sure that the core book mentions this, that they can be shining heroes or tyrants, either being within their capabilities. Yeah, they're the most famous ones, but that's because they are both the most powerful(though, when compared to other celestial, not much with regards to direct confrontation) and because they're the ones in the core book.

As for the final point, about everyone else being helpless, that's simply not true. There are very few problems that only solars can deal with. In fact, I think the only issue that truly requires solar help is Building a first age infrastructure, as that was built off of the specific abilities Solars had access to. I would note that other groups do, indeed, have special things that only they have access.


Adding this because you edited your post while I made a very slow post:

If most Solars are jerks and then some of the few ones that aren't get explicitly called out as being "terrible Solars", what exactly is a guy meant to think?

Oh, wow. That's wrong on many levels. Solars don't think that they're more important than the world(or, not sane ones). They think that they're important people within the world, yes, but if an Exalt doesn't think of himself like that he is lying to himself very, very hard. A solar thinks that

As for the ambition thing, what exactly is wrong with ambition? This though process showed up in the Lytek thread on the Exalted forums, and I just don't get it. Do you really never want to feel pride or satisfaction in what you do? Do you never want to change a bad situation into one that's better? To have an impact? And, even if you do, how in the world does wanting to do so make you a bad person?

Also, I'm interested that you find Solars who go out and do stuff so distasteful. Why? Should Sidereals just sit back and not do anything?

Not commenting on the Solar smith because I have no idea who he is, or what's his story.

[Yuki Akuma]

Oh, Ambition is evil. Didn't you know that?

I mean, TV Tropes says so, so it must be true.

[Xefas]

I think I get Drascin's sentiment. It's not evil to have ambition and want to improve one's station in life. It's just rude to enforce your will on the entire world without asking and think that's an okay thing to do. Which is often the goal of a Solar, at least in the millennial long term (today, I'll fix the Guild, tomorrow the Scarlet Dynasty, and on Wednesday, the world).

The thing is that no one person, or even small collective, is going to be unanimously agreed upon as the ruler of anything larger than a shanty town, without significant amounts of violence (or in the case of Exalted, mindrape).

You can't both be a nice person and rule the world. At some point, you have to do bad things to some people who don't necessarily deserve it. Hell, our own planet wouldn't even survive a single power making an actual grab for rulership of the world.

And it seems to be the general consensus that, Solars being as powerful as they are, eventually they will outgrow every minor goal and eventually, even if it takes a few thousand years, get to the point where they want something on that scale.

To Drascin, it was refreshing to see someone take their Solar powers and decide to just be a nice person and make some people happy through perfectly normal non-UMI ways. Instead of being a conqueror. And I can see that point of view perfectly well.

Once you get down to it, a Solar is not inherently an 'important person' to the world. They have power, yeah, but they have no more right to use it to encroach on others' lives than someone with a gun has the right to enforce their will on unarmed civilians. They have a divine right handed down from the gods, but the gods have no right to make such statements, as they are themselves despots who obtained their authority through vicious and petty violence and subterfuge.

The only ones who have these sorts of rights are Primordials, because they are the literal incarnate concepts of them. The Empyreal Chaos had the objective right to rule, because he was the objective right to rule incarnated into physicality.

The Infernals draw on these concepts. And so it all loops nicely back around to Infernals being the best at everything.

[meschlum]

Liquid Sarcasm

Honesty is a virtue. Since the Fair Folk find virtuous mortals exceedingly interesting, they seek to cultivate virtues as much as possible, including honesty. At the same time, statements along the lines of "would you please love me more than life itself, as I feel a bit peckish?" are poorly received by the Creation-born, who evidently do not comprehend their own virtues.

Enter Desus. In between exterminating species of shellfish that might have given allergies to the seventh cousin three times removed of his butler's niece's next door neighbour's pet river dragon keeper's fifth best friend thirty years ago and lunch, he deigned to anihilate a few million Raksha who'd cheerfully volunteered for the honor. The most shellshocked of the survivors proved a nearly competent bootlicker, and fled into the Deep Wyld bearing a precious cargo: the taste of leather that had almost touched Desus Himself. And a large footprint in the rear end, but that goes without saying.

From this most potent core, the Unshaped refined a strange fluid, which when imbibed allowed the drinker to be perfectly honest while also following all the rules and requirements of Creation-based society. Statements such as "Desus is great", "You can trust me with your soul", "I'd never do that to your barnyard animals, much less you", and the classic "This won't hurt a bit" could be made while remaining utterly honest.

For some reason, the Raksha relying on the Sarcasm have not come back from Creation at the head of a huge caravan of willing slaves and precious souls. But that doesn't mean it's not working.

In order to activate its powers, the ower of the Sarcasm must spend a scene singing the virtues of Desus, or another deserving hero, and one scene insulting Sol or some other unworthy worm.

3-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Water Form - the Sarcasm manifests as a floating bubble of greenish fluid, which can be imbibed by anyone who desires to. It's perfectly safe. Really.
Curse of Definition - imbibers of the Sarcasm become incapable of communicating in a non sarcastic manner. It's a really wonderful state of affairs, which does all involved a world of good and helps good relations, not to mention the flame wars it stops as meanings become perfectly clear.


For the especially generous, rumor states that there is a lake of Sarcasm somewhere in the Wyld, which can be claimed and then employed via a weird device known as an aerosol, spreading a fine mist of Sarcasm across an entire country. Using such a device can only end well, and counts as a 5-dot artifact with Assumption of the Living Kingdom instead of Water Form.

[Drascin]

The only people I know who get treated as orcs to be beat up by the Exalted in the standard setting are Fair Folk, demons, and gods. The first two often deserve it in some respect, because that's the narrative role they occupy. The latter may or may not, depending on the characters involved.

Actually, I find demons are given more respect than DBs for the most part. I've actually found more people wondering if it's alright to bind demons than doubting their morality for annihilating a whole House Legion .

Still, if someone argues that DB are orcs for Solars to kill, the proper response is to not hate Solars, any more than if someone suggested that when you see a kitten, to throw it into a dog-fighting cage match the proper response would be to hate dogs. The person is wrong, but that doesn't mean that you should take the opposite side entirely.

See, here's how my process went.

First, with just the core book and a couple more books, I merely disliked Solars as something to play myself. They're the most powerful thing in the game, I dislike playing the single most powerful option in a given game (I'm a powergamer at heart - and playing Tier 1 stuff makes powergaming just too easy). It was, at first, as simple and innocuous as this. Just a bunch of dudes with superpowers, some good, some evil, but all entirely too Superman-y in powerlevel for me to play them.

But then, I started to read more, and started realizing that the game was written for Solars and that the other splats (at the time, no Alchemicals or Infernals) were more of a concession, like WotC giving you rules to play monster characters, than anything actually thought from the beginning as a player option (Lunars were particularly egregious in this. It's so obvious they never were really thought out beyond "barbarian warlords for Solars to make alliances or war with" at first). And then, whenever I said I disliked Solars and would have really enjoyed it if someone else got a bit of a chance at protagonism instead of the game's base conceit of "Solars are the ones who will make or break the world, everyone else is mostly here as cheerleaders or to sramble around trying to do stuff", I got more or less torn apart by everyone saying that if we left things to everyone else the world was inevitably dead. Solars got treated as heroes or at least the absolute and indisputable lesser evil, and a necessary improvement, and I just never could see why. Solars had already almost blown up the world once, they had to be put down for it! They were at the absolute least every bit as bad as everyone else, and I had trouble seeing how in some ways they weren't worse. And the more I read, the more I found about Solars tending towards being completely egoistic. And trying to suggest a Solar with some kind of selflessness had people pointing that that would not be a Solar, but a Lunar or something else.

So, what's a man to think, if nearly (nearly because Arkadi, Dace and Demetheus seem to be cool dudes) all the Solars you see reflected in the books are annoying, and trying to make a non-annoying one gets everyone else, including people who know more than you about the setting by a mile, saying you're doing it wrong? Well obviously I probably am doing it wrong, then!

Also, I was going to make a snarky post where I compare your argument to the common argument that Solars are all jerks, that will try to destroy the world. Honestly, I've seen just as many people hold that opinion,

Not a chance. There's actually not that many of us. The thing is, we're really a bit too loud (and sorry for that), which only gets amplified since we're really standing out from the assumption that DBs and Sidereals are evil, which is more or less what most players think. DBs as setting-appropiate orcs and Sids as teacup-death-squad bogeymen is more or less how people think - because that's what's written in the books, because the books are written for Solars. "Mere terrestrial" is a turn of phrase that crops up in the books' writing continuously - and it transmits the rather simple fact that Terrestrials are not important. They never really were. They are hobgoblins, stronger and more interesting than the Raksha kobolds but still designed to lose. And I find this annoying because I rather like Terrestrials.

As for your first complaint, they are protagonists and heroes. So are Sidereals. So are Lunars. So are Dragonblooded. They are also villians. As are Sidereals. As are Lunars. As are Dragonblooded. I'm pretty sure that the core book mentions this, that they can be shining heroes or tyrants, either being within their capabilities. Yeah, they're the most famous ones, but that's because they are both the most powerful(though, when compared to other celestial, not much with regards to direct confrontation) and because they're the ones in the core book.

As for the final point, about everyone else being helpless, that's simply not true. There are very few problems that only solars can deal with. In fact, I think the only issue that truly requires solar help is Building a first age infrastructure, as that was built off of the specific abilities Solars had access to. I would note that other groups do, indeed, have special things that only they have access.

Not really. If I had a cookie for every time I heard someone say "well, good luck doing that without Solars" for something (be it retake Thorns as a Sid/DB composite group, stop the Bull's rampage, stop a second Balorian Crusade, whatever)... well, I'd probably have died from indigestion already and couldn't be talking to you here . Fact is, Solars are the ones who are expected to change things, and the ones the other splats turn around (a thousand straight years and a couple apocalypses of stuff happening without Solars, and most of the political life of Sidereals and Lunars is still mostly about "Solars yay" and "Solars nay"? Seriously? A thousand years are a lot of years to get over things!) and challenges are written for.

Oh, wow. That's wrong on many levels. Solars don't think that they're more important than the world(or, not sane ones). They think that they're important people within the world, yes, but if an Exalt doesn't think of himself like that he is lying to himself very, very hard. A solar thinks that

As for the ambition thing, what exactly is wrong with ambition? This though process showed up in the Lytek thread on the Exalted forums, and I just don't get it. Do you really never want to feel pride or satisfaction in what you do? Do you never want to change a bad situation into one that's better? To have an impact? And, even if you do, how in the world does wanting to do so make you a bad person?

There's a difference between "I take pride in what I contribute" and "must change everything in my image", and Solars seem to tend more towards the second than the first. Ambition for self-improvement is good - hell, it's necessary to be a good person. But when your ambition is so all-encompassing as the Solars' is nearly required to be, there's way more chances for it to be bad than good.

Also, I'm interested that you find Solars who go out and do stuff so distasteful. Why? Should Sidereals just sit back and not do anything?

Well, if you were to look at most books that's already what they do when they're not sending deathsquads to kill those poor Solars . But nah, you msunderstand. It's not that they go out and do stuff. It's that apparently Solars are expected to do stuff big and huge and without nuance. A proper Solar can't just want to help improve a country's standing - he has to take over the country because he knows he can rule it better. He must have a ridiculously epic in scope motivation right from Exaltation day one - the kind of guy who performs great acts of heroism simply to protect his friends and that which he loves doesn't Exalt as a Solar. You need to want to go out and turn everything inside out to get that golden shine.

A Sidereal is equally expected to do small changes as big ones. To care for the little things, which matter, as much as the big ones. In fact, "change a lot of small things to change the big ones" is more or less standard Sidereal MO, because for the most part they don't have the power to wave their hand and make things so, so they have to work from down up. But, more importantly, in a way, Alchemicals and Sidereals are, in the end, servants to a cause they believe higher than themselves. You sit down and think and know that, for all your power, some things are way bigger than you, and the welfare of your world and your people is one of those things. But the Solar story is, in the end, about how you are bigger than the world. How in the end the world is whatever you want it to be. It's your playground, and the people in it your playthings, and the other Solars are the other kids in the sandbox. You can fool yourself into thinking otherwise, but that is no less lying to yourself than your mention before that an Exalt who doesn't think he's important at all is, and the books do not hide that they expect you to outgrow such silly things really quickly. Mostly, Solars come off as reminding of Cuzco, "it's all about me!".

Simply put, I find the idea of someone who, after getting power, the first idea that pops into his head is "Oh, man, with this power I could totally take over the world!" (insert M.Bison quote here) - or hell, someone who already wanted power so he could take over - to be someone more likely to be unsuited to having that power than not. And that's the kind of person that I have been given to understand, repeteadly, makes for the best Solar. The mindset most likely to attract a Solar Exaltation. This makes it rather hard for me to believe that most Solars aren't going to be people to rather watch out for. I still honestly think there are going to be good Solars. But due to the selection process, I can't help but feel most are going to be egotistical jerks.

Not commenting on the Solar smith because I have no idea who he is, or what's his story.

It's apparently more or less what I said. There never was much on him, from what I was told. Just a dude mentioned in Castebook:Twilight, apparently, as someone the players might find useful as a friendly crafter and stuff. But I liked it. I liked the idea that you could have Solars that didn't instantly drop everything and go out to change the world!(tm). Just, "I got some powers now, I should use them to help".

-----------------
Oh my god the class is nearly over I've rambled how much? I really gotta go, I hope this made any kind of sense.

Anyway, sorry for all this stuff. We kind of totally derailed the thread just now. I'll shut up. Basically, it comes to, when I think a maybe-Solar I like, I think Ferb Fletcher. Ridiculously competent, yes, but not overbearing, or conquering, or world-shaking. But the whole focus the line has had with regards to Solars (inevitable conquerors and general egotistic "my way or the highway" people) makes me uncomfortable and uninterested in equal parts. That's basically what it boils down to, in the end.

[Lord Raziere]

If it makes you feel any better, I made a Solar who doubts himself, doubts the world, and doubts that he or any other Solar can do anything to change it.

but enough about that. what was I going to originally post again?

Gah. it was something about something about something…..was it my Lunar charms I was designing? No. Was it….

Nope can't remember. I know it wasn't about my Lunar charms that I am designing though.

[Lix Lorn]

Liquid Sarcasm

Honesty is a virtue. Since the Fair Folk find virtuous mortals exceedingly interesting, they seek to cultivate virtues as much as possible, including honesty. At the same time, statements along the lines of "would you please love me more than life itself, as I feel a bit peckish?" are poorly received by the Creation-born, who evidently do not comprehend their own virtues.

Enter Desus. In between exterminating species of shellfish that might have given allergies to the seventh cousin three times removed of his butler's niece's next door neighbour's pet river dragon keeper's fifth best friend thirty years ago and lunch, he deigned to anihilate a few million Raksha who'd cheerfully volunteered for the honor. The most shellshocked of the survivors proved a nearly competent bootlicker, and fled into the Deep Wyld bearing a precious cargo: the taste of leather that had almost touched Desus Himself. And a large footprint in the rear end, but that goes without saying.

From this most potent core, the Unshaped refined a strange fluid, which when imbibed allowed the drinker to be perfectly honest while also following all the rules and requirements of Creation-based society. Statements such as "Desus is great", "You can trust me with your soul", "I'd never do that to your barnyard animals, much less you", and the classic "This won't hurt a bit" could be made while remaining utterly honest.

For some reason, the Raksha relying on the Sarcasm have not come back from Creation at the head of a huge caravan of willing slaves and precious souls. But that doesn't mean it's not working.

In order to activate its powers, the ower of the Sarcasm must spend a scene singing the virtues of Desus, or another deserving hero, and one scene insulting Sol or some other unworthy worm.

3-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Water Form - the Sarcasm manifests as a floating bubble of greenish fluid, which can be imbibed by anyone who desires to. It's perfectly safe. Really.
Curse of Definition - imbibers of the Sarcasm become incapable of communicating in a non sarcastic manner. It's a really wonderful state of affairs, which does all involved a world of good and helps good relations, not to mention the flame wars it stops as meanings become perfectly clear.


For the especially generous, rumor states that there is a lake of Sarcasm somewhere in the Wyld, which can be claimed and then employed via a weird device known as an aerosol, spreading a fine mist of Sarcasm across an entire country. Using such a device can only end well, and counts as a 5-dot artifact with Assumption of the Living Kingdom instead of Water Form.

Do you have a girlfriend or anything? Is the position open? XD
YOU'RE TOO AWESOME.

[Story Time]

I like Solars.
They're completely alien transhuman monstrosities that can look like a human, talk like a human, think like a human, and act like a human, but are most definitely not human by any meaningful distinction. I think they hedge solidly into second place in my favorites list, assuming the setting is a variant one without the Great Curse, which allows the actions of Solars, Lunars, Sidereals, and Dragonblooded within the setting to be meaningful and interesting.

Xefas is so much more eloquent then I am. I wish I could've said those thoughts so succinctly. I pretty much agree with the above.

Liquid Sarcasm
[...]
3-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Water Form - the Sarcasm manifests as a floating bubble of greenish fluid, which can be imbibed by anyone who desires to. It's perfectly safe. Really.
Curse of Definition - imbibers of the Sarcasm become incapable of communicating in a non sarcastic manner. It's a really wonderful state of affairs, which does all involved a world of good and helps good relations, not to mention the flame wars it stops as meanings become perfectly clear.


For the especially generous, rumor states that there is a lake of Sarcasm somewhere in the Wyld, which can be claimed and then employed via a weird device known as an aerosol, spreading a fine mist of Sarcasm across an entire country. Using such a device can only end well, and counts as a 5-dot artifact with Assumption of the Living Kingdom instead of Water Form.

Meschlum you're amazing! I'm going to use this at some point, I think. Thanks so much.

So he stayed, and improved the life of people in the town, and made weapons for other passing Exalts that looked like decent people, none of that I will be King!" ambition - just a dude who got power and wants to use it to help, starting with the people he cares the most for. And I said "hey, a Solar I can sympathize with! Awesome!" Sadly, not half an hour later, there were eight different replies saying that yeah that had existed but that was because writers were derp, that someone like that would have never have earned a Solar Exaltation, and that he was a terrible example of a Solar because he had "no ambition".

And trying to suggest a Solar with some kind of selflessness had people pointing that that would not be a Solar, but a Lunar or something else.[...]Ambition for self-improvement is good - hell, it's necessary to be a good person. But when your ambition is so all-encompassing[...]there's way more chances for it to be bad than good.

Can...can I buy you ice cream or something? Nice-guy, Ambitionless, Solar sounds like a character I'd want to play.

[aetherialDawn]

Lunar charms that I am designing though.

Sorry, but I zoomed in on this.
I do love that Lunar homebrew...

Solars! Remember that The Unconquered Sun himself willingly gets out of the sky now and then - because it's a better world to let other people have the spotlight, and because if it's all sun, all the time, the world would burn to ash in time.

I think that a Zenith who took that to heart, and spent time using his power in the standard huge way, and then just retreated (probably for decades at a time?) to let other people take over might be interesting.
I don't think it would work without much more thought put into it, but putting more effort into literally emulating the sun instead of just shining as brightly might make a better Solar. Thoughts?

[Turalisj]

Sorry, but I zoomed in on this.
I do love that Lunar homebrew...

Solars! Remember that The Unconquered Sun himself willingly gets out of the sky now and then - because it's a better world to let other people have the spotlight, and because if it's all sun, all the time, the world would burn to ash in time.

I think that a Zenith who took that to heart, and spent time using his power in the standard huge way, and then just retreated (probably for decades at a time?) to let other people take over might be interesting.
I don't think it would work without much more thought put into it, but putting more effort into literally emulating the sun instead of just shining as brightly might make a better Solar. Thoughts?

That's actually what the future plan is for my solar in this game. Create a nation, set it up so the place is pretty much self sufficient, then wander Creation setting up more nations like it. Maybe visit every fifty years.

[golentan]

I once made a solar whose goal was to make mortals win the setting. No, really, he wanted to set up a means of enlightening mortals by the millions and getting them access to charms that would let them effectively protect themselves from the depredations of many supernatural entities, and then he would retire and spend his final millennia in comfort designing manses and perfecting the martial arts.

But yeah, generally solars come off as power hungry, self obsessed narcissists in my mind. The fact that you're better than someone AT things doesn't make you better than them, guys.

And I find the whole "more perfect" theme they've got kinda bland. If they did more weird things with their sun motif or virtuous nature or something, yeah, that would be interesting. But... Infernals are transcendent embodiments of concepts who warp reality to reflect their nature/that of their patron simply by their presence. Lunars are shapeshifting embodiments of the might of animals whose wyld nature is both a blessing and a curse. Sidereals are bureaucratic ninjas who are the embodiments of an overarching sort of story woven into the very tapestry of fate. Dragonblooded are the ultimate team players as embodied in the elements which form the core of the world. Alchemicals are the reincarnated embodiment of thousands of years of heroes and the triumph of machinery and hard work over chaos. Even abyssals, my second least favorite type of exalt, are living embodiments of death (note: ) and the kings of the underworld. None of these prevent the exalts in question from pursuing any sort of dream, or from being quintessentially human archetypes and heroes. Solars get that last part, but for their own flavor... they get that again. They're quintessential human archetypes only more so. I can't point to the weird fundamental role or concept they embody because they don't have one, they just have the same Larger than Life Human nature of every other exalt type except they're *shiny* and *more perfect.* They can be interesting characters to be sure, but compared to the other exalts they feel flavorless.

[Volthawk]

The thing with Solars, I think, is that they're intended as the wild card in the setting. Normal Solars aren't an integral part of any faction (Abyssals have the Underworld, Infernals have Hell, Lunars have the Silver Pact, DB's have the Realm/Lookshy, Sidereals have Heaven, Alchies have Autochtonia and the Eight Nations), and are also on the powerful end of the power scale, so they're the ones that can change the power balance. As Hell/the Underworld have their own Solaroids, and as such a powe boost, they've been taking actions towards their own goals (Thorns, the whole Scarlet Empress thing), disrupting the kind of balance that had been going on since the Solars were locked up. And the normal Solars are the unpredictible new force, with the potential to boost any side's chances of coming out on top in the conflict, or to make their own side in the problems that are in the current setting.

[Story Time]

I think that a Zenith who took that to heart, and spent time using his power in the standard huge way, and then just retreated (probably for decades at a time?) to let other people take over might be interesting.
I don't think it would work without much more thought put into it, but putting more effort into literally emulating the sun instead of just shining as brightly might make a better Solar. Thoughts?

Very very nice. Keep up with it.

[Recaiden]

Sorry, but I zoomed in on this.
I do love that Lunar homebrew...

Solars! Remember that The Unconquered Sun himself willingly gets out of the sky now and then - because it's a better world to let other people have the spotlight, and because if it's all sun, all the time, the world would burn to ash in time.

I think that a Zenith who took that to heart, and spent time using his power in the standard huge way, and then just retreated (probably for decades at a time?) to let other people take over might be interesting.
I don't think it would work without much more thought put into it, but putting more effort into literally emulating the sun instead of just shining as brightly might make a better Solar. Thoughts?

I think that this puts it very well as an explanation for why the Solars can and do break things. Even at his best, Sol is too much for the world.

I once made a solar whose goal was to make mortals win the setting. No, really, he wanted to set up a means of enlightening mortals by the millions and getting them access to charms that would let them effectively protect themselves from the depredations of many supernatural entities, and then he would retire and spend his final millennia in comfort designing manses and perfecting the martial arts.

I've had this thought, or one like it, but never got to play one of them. It's a nice idea, and probably a nice character too.

Hmm...is there, mechanically, some way to access essence 4 charms at essence 1 or 2?

[Xefas]

Hmm...is there, mechanically, some way to access essence 4 charms at essence 1 or 2?

How about access to an Essence 5 charm for an Essence 1 Enlightened Mortal?

Brohander, the Bro'dsword
Artifact ●●
Sapience ●●

Brohander is a daiklaive forged from an alloy of starmetal collected from celestial gods in the employ of the Cerulean Lute of Harmony, and Malfean diamond pressed into existence by the passing hooves of the Black Boar That Twists The Skies. The Second Circle Demon, Brotoc, The Decidedly Wasted, expressive soul of Dudebro, The Straight Up Dawg Time, 4th soul of Isidoros, was consumed by the forging process, transmuting it into a Hellforged Wonder.

Brohander confers on its wielder the Urge "Get smashed out of your ****ing mind and slice those who would dare to **** up your ****.", and confers an additional two dice towards any action that harmonizes with this goal. In addition, it allows its wielder access to the following three charms:

Hurry Home - Teleport to the nearest location possessing of free booze.
Benefaction - For the next scene, the target adds one die to all Resistance rolls not to vomit. At the cost of an additional temporary willpower, the wielder may extend this blessing to a duration of 20 years.
Divine Melee Subordination - Only functions while the wielder is so drunk he won't remember this fight in the morning.

-----

(Keep in mind, an Essence 1 Enlightened Mortal would only be able to actually use the Benefaction one, due to the Essence requirements - but he would have access to an Essence 5 charm. And that's what counts.)

[Obscurejones]

Quick question, just asking here because I'm positive someone who watches this thread knows the answer; If I'm using a martial art with a weapon that isn't a martial arts weapon, like a bow or a flame piece, do I use martial arts for all rolls with that weapon or only when using charms from that art?

[Gensh]

Quick question, just asking here because I'm positive someone who watches this thread knows the answer; If I'm using a martial art with a weapon that isn't a martial arts weapon, like a bow or a flame piece, do I use martial arts for all rolls with that weapon or only when using charms from that art?

I believe errata says whichever is lesser until you purchase the form Charm.

[Yuki Akuma]

No, errata says Martial Arts, capped by whatever ability you'd normally use, or whatever ability you'd normally use.

So you can't suddenly get worse with a weapon if you take a martial art based on it and your MA is lower than your Melee.

[Obscurejones]

But I would need an Archery at least as high as my Martial Arts?

[Yuki Akuma]

That's my understanding.

Of course, charms are a different matter - just roll MA.

[Lix Lorn]

Quick question, just asking here because I'm positive someone who watches this thread knows the answer; If I'm using a martial art with a weapon that isn't a martial arts weapon, like a bow or a flame piece, do I use martial arts for all rolls with that weapon or only when using charms from that art?

If you have at least one charm, and it's your FIRST martial art, then you use MA or normal, whichever is better. If it's your second or subsequent art, you need the form charm to use MA unless you're using it for a charm.

[Gensh]

So you can't suddenly get worse with a weapon if you take a martial art based on it and your MA is lower than your Melee.

My mistake. I keep thinking Righteous Devil style has a number of Charms that involve physically beating people to death with firewands. Then I remember that was just a character I ran once before. It wasn't even Exalted.

[Xefas]

My mistake. I keep thinking Righteous Devil style has a number of Charms that involve physically beating people to death with firewands. Then I remember that was just a character I ran once before. It wasn't even Exalted.

I'm imagining playing the Dresden Files RPG as a paladin who inherits an extremely powerful blessed revolver with the power to permanently annihilate demons. However, he has zero Guns skill, and so he has to pistol-whip them to death.

[TheCountAlucard]

Okay, Xefas, I laughed.

[meschlum]

Creation's Guardian

Creation is doomed. Besides its inevitable, and enviable, return to the Wyld, it is positively infested with fates worse than becoming a field of rabbits chewing on horses under the magma sea. Death from below (where above is far superior), the Primordials locking the doors to the playpen again (and with extreme hierarchical prejudice), the Teacup Conspiracy, LEGO units escaping from their cancerous box, the Planeteers taking over without the guidance of their Heart, and Mr. Fuzzikins ultra secret plot (involving bondage and widows of some sort) are all going to activate at once, infesting the new Creation with countless splatbooks worth of darkness.

What's worse, the temporal warps and retroactive un-re-anti-counter-quasi-pseudo-final-ultimate-reverted-inverse- destruction and creation involved is going to create massive wars over whether this world is old or new. And it'll be full of flames.

Since this fate interferes with the Fair Folk's ability to innocently dissolve all that is into puddles of optionally sentient goo (and cookies), a Raksha noble resolved to do something about it. Obviously, the Sword of Creation had to go, as it is a weapon that only works on those who have Creation's best interests at heart, so the Guardian was created instead, to endow the asses of mortals with the power they needed to remove all those annoying non-Raksha irritants.

When a portion of Creation is threatened, the Guardian's lorekeeper will travel through the endangered land, telling tales of glorious deeds performed by 'mere' mortals, inspiring three youths of different origins to band together in order to stand against adversity. The will and desire of these simple beings is enough to enliven the heart of the Raksha, and the endangered land is filled with Wyld power - any mortal who dares hope for a better future, and say so, has her (or his) essence awakened, while the land itself is filled with cryptic hints and clues, revealing the secrets of Martial Arts and Thaumaturgy to any who care to look.

As though this blessing were not enough, the three chosen by the Guardian each gain a further talent - the power to awaken a single animal species. Each chosen merely needs to kiss their selected animal for it to gain full sentience and awakened essence. Similarly, the chosen can bestow on any human the power to turn into said animal - for friendship and trust are the foundations of the power granted by the Guardian.

Legends claim that the first land blessed by the Guardian was in the South, and its pony herds defend it to this day.

Anathema, Wyld Hunt, Dead, gods, or otherworldly machines - where the Guardian passes, none of these are dangerous any more.

4-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - the Guardian affects an entire nation at a time.
Behemoth Forging Meditation - in each scene within the Guardian's reach, the first mortal to express a desire for a better life has his (or her) Essence Awakened.
Subversion and Transformation Artifice - each of the Chosen picks an animal species (the first they kiss), and grants all animals of that species that they kiss Awakened Essence and whatever mutations are required for it to become sentient.
Bestial Transformation - once a Chosen has picked an animal, any human (or animal picked by a different Chosen) they kiss three times in quick succession is transformed into their favored animal.

3-dot Behemoth
Assumption of the Living Kingdom - the 'sentient' portion of the Guardian is spread across the land as well.
Imposition of Law (Teaching Terrestrial Martial Arts) - by subtly altering the landscape, the Guardian, in this aspect, can provide the basic understanding required to start learning Terrestrial Martial Arts.
Imposition of Law (Teaching Thaumaturgy) - similarly, the clues to understanding the workings of Creation are made particularly obvious to those who wish to see them.


The Faithful Beloved

Too often, mortals bemoan the self-evident fact that those they hold dear will abandon them in favor of the Raksha, who are far superior in all regards. Since sounds of despair and crying over missing girl (or boy) friends can lower property values in the edgy sections of the Wyld (near Creation), an Entertainer was tossed into the Creation-wide Web (of Fate) to work out what the silly mortals were asking for.

After about a hundred or so Entertainers, the Pattern Spiders were sated, and schematics provided. Thus, from the Cup Grace of an unexpectedly arachnophiliac Entertainer, the Beloved was formed.

Appearing to those it chooses as a face, or voice, in a web, the Beloved quickly ascertains all the needs and desires of a Creation-born, and manifests fully only when they are alone. It is intimately familiar with all its companion's passions, knows exactly how to scratch any... intimate... itches, and can even change itself to better fit any new fantasies.

1-dot Behemoth
Assumption of the Person's Heart - the Beloved is only material to the Creation-born it has picked, and (to others) often manifests as an unusual amount of hair on one hand (or both, when two Beloveds are owned).
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Beloved is desire and reliability made manifest, gaining an extra automatic success for either purpose.
Imposition of Law - the Beloved is perfectly familiar with any fantasy passing through the mind of its Creation-born.

Since the Beloved has the Abilities of the person it is bonded to, it can talk about anything that interests said person with just a bit less expertise than they have. Or a bit more, thanks to Dreams and Passion. Given the number of overlapping Assumptions it has, it's a fair ruling to state that its appearance shifts as desired, so long as it remains true to itself. Otherwise, the Beloved is an Entertainer with Soul Carving Artifice, so that it can become anything in the fantasies of its chosen mortal, and spend all its time in his (or her) dreams.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Meschlum, that is ... leaving me speechless.

[Drascin]

Can...can I buy you ice cream or something? Nice-guy, Ambitionless, Solar sounds like a character I'd want to play.

Well, stracciatella icecream is always welcome .

Sorry, but I zoomed in on this.
I do love that Lunar homebrew...

Personally I'm working on a few charms inspired in various references, myself. And about half of the references I picked seem to have ended up being most appropiate for Lunar Charms for some reason. Illusions, lunacy, traps, and stuff.

Some of the others, though, I have no idea where to put, which is making this slow work.