General Exalted Discussion Thread VII: Playground Eternal Essence

[Gensh]

I was thinking about the Exalted setting when something struck me:
if soulsteel is made of human souls,
starmetal is made of god souls,
jade is alluded to be made of elemental souls,
moonsilver is probably made of raksha souls,
and booze is made of demon souls,
then whose souls make orihalcum and adamant?

[Tavar]

I'd note that of those, only Starmetal and Soulsteel are really correct, and that Starmetal is due to be changed back to something that's not 'divine soulsteel'.

[Rikandur Azebol]

Gensh, You got it slightly wrong. Demon souls are made of booze.

[aetherialDawn]

I was thinking about the Exalted setting when something struck me:
if soulsteel is made of human souls,
starmetal is made of god souls,
jade is alluded to be made of elemental souls,
moonsilver is probably made of raksha souls,
and booze is made of demon souls,
then whose souls make orihalcum and adamant?

Orichalcum is made of sunlight. We just have an infinite supply, but if we didn't we'd be rather unhappy that every bit of Orichalcum removed a bit of light from the world forever.

Adamant is made up of the tears of Autochthon. He wasn't bullied just for giggles, you know, that's a valuable resource he sobs out.

[Story Time]

The Solar-Lunar Bond exists to represent the balance between those two Incarnae as designed rather than actually how it plays out[...]

You know, I keep hearing this repeated over and over. I'm sorry that you're the one who gets quoted, Gensh. But it is impossible. For balance of power equal power is necessary between all parties. The Bond's existence at all, even if the power were given to the Lunars, unbalances the Great Equation. This is because the Solar Bond is a one-way street rather than a two-way relationship. So, obviously, in order to restore the balance the Solar Bond must be eliminated or made so that Lunars can equally influence Solars.

And that doesn't even address charms.

Hm. Must think-think more about this.


And, yes, I'm still thinking about the Fluff Patch idea.

[...]and that Starmetal is due to be changed back to something that's not 'divine soulsteel'.

You heard this where, Tavar?

[Gensh]

You know, I keep hearing this repeated over and over. I'm sorry that you're the one who gets quoted, Gensh. But it is impossible. For balance of power equal power is necessary between all parties. The Bond's existence at all, even if the power were given to the Lunars, unbalances the Great Equation. This is because the Solar Bond is a one-way street rather than a two-way relationship. So, obviously, in order to restore the balance the Solar Bond must be eliminated or made so that Lunars can equally influence Solars.

And that doesn't even address charms.

Hm. Must think-think more about this.

Well, Luna was specifically created to be Sol-lite. Likewise, Sol's Chosen are by nature weaker than Luna's because of where each draws their power from. Sol, being the jerk he is, went further and demanded the Solars have the power to command all Lunars just in case they went Wyld-crazy. Luna luckily saved her Chosen from this, but the Bond remains one-sided because literally no one can oppose Sol (ignoring the Great Geas and the ability of Exalts to kill anything eventually). Since players were obviously never intended to play Lunars, this sort of one-sided relationship was fine. Except now Lunars are playable, and the Bond is a terrible thing that either needs to be stricken from the record, consigned to being purely fluff, or retooled to give the Lunars a sort of influence over the Solars that is subtle enough that the First Age Solars wouldn't notice it. The only problem with the last option is that it reduces the likelihood of the Great Curse messing everything up and would require additional explaining for how the Solars were corrupted so much with their mates watching. Of course this would require changing how the Great Curse interacts with Lunars. Hopefully, that would be the final change in the sequence.

The Lunar Charmset probably needs to be rewritten from the ground up, yeah. An actual fix would likely involve enough surgery that it would take equal effort to starting over. Of course, it might not be that bad; after all, Lunars aren't my area of expertise, and I don't exactly have the book to look at.

[Lord Raziere]

Hmmm.
The armor seems fine in many ways, but requires some adjustment.

*snip*

Thanks, I think this means when I design I need an editor or something, or maybe I need to check mechanics better.

and I still keep coming up with ideas! mostly now I'm wondering what the Dragon-Blooded would've invented during the Shogunate. Green Jade Dire Chains to drain more motes than usual to use on Anathema, some kind of Fivefold Jade Armor that somehow gives you all five jade bonuses when are are fighting with other people wearing the same armor, shields that increase your defense in numbers with the same shield, or a shield designed to for you to use perfect defenses to protect your friends at a distance

also I'm thinking that for the Shogunate Era, while they wouldn't have the glorious ships and tech of the First Age, they would have something closer to Victorian Era stuff, they would still have tech around, but it wouldn't be the super-modern conveniences, it would be y'know, steam engine, musket and some really unsafe mortal assembly lines in the most industrialized places, with maybe a bourgeoisie middle class of mortals and/or god-blooded or something, with some hot-air balloons or zeppelins around, you know something about Haslanti league level stuff.

I'd also imagine that some Dragon-Blooded would keep finding a few things that disprove the propagandized story they were given and a rebellion against the Shogun would pop up periodically only to be smacked down again.

also I'm thinking for some reason the Shogunate mgiht have actually advanced Alchemy because the Solars were too busy with their super-tech to pay attention to it, but once the Solars were gone the Dragon-Blooded tried every potion and such to try and replicate their powerful medical techniques……but y'know, didn't ever get that far, and then all these advances gone away with the Contagion…..

[aetherialDawn]

Well, Luna was specifically created to be Sol-lite.

This is not quite true - Sol was created to be 'The Best at Everything That Exists'
Luna was created to be the closest thing to a Wyld envoy the Primordials had, and seems more accurately described as 'Do Anything, Whether It Exists or Not'
So while Sol is better than Luna at anything she does, she can do things he can't (and then he arguably becomes able to do them if he want, because he's The Best. But he isn't necessarily The First in those cases even if it applies.)

(Many further complaints, including points I both agree with and do not)

I don't think that Sol did it as part of being a jerk. More likely is that his Valor told him to take Glory, and he had needed to suppress his Compassion in order to put down the Surrender Oaths.
I wouldn't be surprised if a Sol who was convinced to channel Compassion and had the matter brought to his attention would regret his choice, but be unable to change it because it's part of the Exaltation. He can do anything that can be done, but if it can't be done then it's simply impossible.

Now, Exalted, those folks can make the impossible possible. We know, thanks to the Green Sun Princes, that Exaltations themselves can be changed and altered by those who hold them. The connection from a Lunar to their Solar is not so different, in some ways though not all, to the connection from a GSP to Lillun.

So as Xefas said, the solution to Lunars is to be Infernals.
In all seriousness, trying this would probably invoke a lot of steps towards Chimerism. Opening your Exaltation to tinker opens it to the Wyld that's just waiting, as well...

Also, for Lord Raziere: Using PDs on your friends is called 'Defend Other and a Parry PD', and while the DBs enhanced cyborgification, they didn't advance Alchemy - there's mention of a Solar who managed to make Alchemy so powerful it became Sorcery. There was a thaumaturgist so good he made Sorcery, without using Sorcery. They MAY, however, have replicated much of his medical work due to sheer need.

[Talkkno]

Why didn't the Unconquered Sun simply blow up the Balorian Crusade with DayStar?

[Turalisj]

He was high on celestial crack.

Yes, the whole time.

[Lord Raziere]

Oh, those sound interesting, I would love to do Sorcery stuff using Thaumaturgy and Alchemy. and perhaps Sidereal Astrology could work something like Sorcery? or maybe not…….maybe Lunar Shapeshifting should also be something like Sorcery, or maybe not…..but then again Abyssals do have Necromancy….

but yea, Terrestrial Alchemy and/or Thaumaturgy would be nice.

also:

Immaculate Sorcerers, using a charm similar to Sorcerous Enlightenment of (Yozi), but instead, Sorcerous Enlightenment of (Elemental Dragon) that grants them Celestial Circle Sorcery….but only within their element. or might be too powerful for Dragon-Blooded even with that limitation, hmm….

[aetherialDawn]

Why didn't the Unconquered Sun simply blow up the Balorian Crusade with DayStar?

Three reasons: One, he wasn't paying attention. Two, he refuses to use the Daystar as a weapon in Creation, to keep it a symbol of peace.

He doesn't want people to realize he's flying the DEATH STAR over them every day.

Three, the Daystar's automatic systems were busy fighting airborne Raksha.

By the way, about refusing to use the Daystar as a weapon in Creation? More accurately, it's okay if nobody realizes.
Rainbows? Luna using illusions to conceal its death lasers.

[Talkkno]

He was high on celestial crack.

Yes, the whole time.

But we know they get out that occasionally for the Calibration fevestial and the like though....you think the imminent prospect of Creation ending would have at least that much import.

[Turalisj]

Swamp gas reflecting the light of the moon.

[a_humble_lich]

He was high on celestial crack.

Yes, the whole time.

I thought that Civ V: Celestial Edition had just* come out and he totally was going to save the world, but just after one more turn.....


* where "just" here means "thousands of years ago"

[Gensh]

I don't think that Sol did it as part of being a jerk. More likely is that his Valor told him to take Glory, and he had needed to suppress his Compassion in order to put down the Surrender Oaths.
I wouldn't be surprised if a Sol who was convinced to channel Compassion and had the matter brought to his attention would regret his choice, but be unable to change it because it's part of the Exaltation. He can do anything that can be done, but if it can't be done then it's simply impossible.

See, that's actually the reason why I dislike Sol. He's good as a character because he has to balance those four contradictory notions of perfection, but he's a jerk as far as the actual world goes because he's incapable of balancing them in the way that an ordinary person would think of as ideal. Well, that and completely abandoning the dragon kings. Kimbery helped her chosen people even after being cast into hell. Granted, she was hoping that they'd help her escape, but that's irrelevant when talking about how the embodiment of Compassion decided to let his new favorite race treat his old favorite as showdogs.

So as Xefas said, the solution to Lunars is to be Infernals.In all seriousness, trying this would probably invoke a lot of steps towards Chimerism. Opening your Exaltation to tinker opens it to the Wyld that's just waiting, as well...

Ah. I see where we were disagreeing. I really think that the issue of the Bond should be resolved out of character via heavy retconning. Certainly GSPs or a Solar with Autochthon Principle Emulation could fix that sort of thing, but the main problem lies in that every newly-rolled Lunar character has to put up with the nonsense until a Solaroid once again comes and solves all problems singlehandedly (though chimerism on the part of the Lunar would at least enable them to help).

But we know they get out that occasionally for the Calibration fevestial and the like though....you think the imminent prospect of Creation ending would have at least that much import.

I think it's been expressed that that sole reason the other Incarnae are able to leave the Games temporarily is because it's not their turn. Since Sol is the embodiment of perfection, however, he has to stay there at all times to make adjustments to his strategy in realtime.

[aetherialDawn]

until a Solaroid once again comes and solves all problems singlehandedly

Who said you could touch an Exaltation from outside? Not me. I don't think a Solaroid could do that without... I don't know. An Exaltation-sized Miracle Shell, maybe? That is to say, PLOT.
But Lunars... They managed to mess with their Castes. Form-Fixing Tattoo expansions similar to Swallowing the Scorpion, mayhaps? They needed Luna's help to change the Castes, I think, but once you've given an Exalt some power, they can keep it and improve upon it - that's a recurring truth. Solars got their first charms from Sol, but they make Solar charms, not UCS charms.
Even Sidereals - got their first charms from the Maidens, but it is only the bindings of fate that run through their Exaltations that prevent them from inventing and using Greater Astrology Charms if I recall right - and those strands of fate can be destroyed (it's just a Bad Idea to do so and would probably mess up your shard's reincarnation a bit.)
GSPs are fairly obvious. Heck, they even get Heretical charms.

I think it's been expressed that that sole reason the other Incarnae are able to leave the Games temporarily is because it's not their turn. Since Sol is the embodiment of perfection, however, he has to stay there at all times to make adjustments to his strategy in realtime.

I don't see why. Perhaps he has to predict his moves in advance.
I've never heard of the Maidens being any more able to leave than Sol - Only Luna, by virtue of A) A refusal to be tied down completely and B) Multiple bodies, I recall being called out as able to tear herself away from the Games reliably.
For that matter, Sol managed to escape them during the Primordial war when he was offered a place at the games.

The interaction of Games and Embodiments can't force the Incarna to do anything. It's their own damn fault, and so I don't hate any of them for it except insofar as I can say "This is stupid."
Except Luna, who does other things.

[TheCountAlucard]

Well, that and completely abandoning the dragon kings... talking about how the embodiment of Compassion decided to let his new favorite race treat his old favorite as showdogs.

What could be done for them? Their race is dying, and it's because of a situation from which they cannot recover, and even the gods can't help them in those regards. It's debatable even as to whether the Exalted or the Primordials could've remedied the situation.

[Gensh]

I've never heard of the Maidens being any more able to leave than Sol - Only Luna, by virtue of A) A refusal to be tied down completely and B) Multiple bodies, I recall being called out as able to tear herself away from the Games reliably.

The Maidens show up outside the Jade Pleasure Dome from time to time, such as when I mentioned before. They're just absolute fatalists, so they don't ever do anything.

For that matter, Sol managed to escape them during the Primordial war when he was offered a place at the games.

He wasn't focused on the Games, though. At that point, he was focused on escape or something that would take priority over the Games. Since he decided to actually focus on the Games, he has to play them perfectly.

The interaction of Games and Embodiments can't force the Incarna to do anything. It's their own damn fault, and so I don't hate any of them for it except insofar as I can say "This is stupid."
Except Luna, who does other things.

Yeah, the Incarna seem to be pretty non-interventionist. Ordinarily, I wouldn't begrudge someone such a philosophical choice, but when a deathlord ends up saving the world, no matter how much of an accident it was, one would expect they should have intervened.

What could be done for them? Their race is dying, and it's because of a situation from which they cannot recover, and even the gods can't help them in those regards. It's debatable even as to whether the Exalted or the Primordials could've remedied the situation.

I didn't treat my grandfather like a showdog just because he was dying. Sol out and out abandoned the dragon kings. He gave the Creation-Ruling Mandate to the Exalted, to humanity, but didn't so much as say "BTW guys, don't kill my favorite talking iguanas." And so not only did they rot away in an unchecked spiral, but the Solars generally messed with them like they did with the dragonblooded.

[TheCountAlucard]

He gave the Creation-Ruling Mandate to the Exalted, to humanity...

Because they fought for it, and earned it.

And so not only did they rot away in an unchecked spiral, but the Solars generally messed with them like they did with the dragonblooded.

I have yet to see any evidence that any of that is true.

[Gensh]

Because they fought for it, and earned it.

They fought for it, but they certainly didn't earn it. Winning a war does nothing to establish a legitimate rule. And the dragon kings also fought. They fought until they were entirely broken. In the end, they received no reward beyond not getting annihilated in the regicidal cycle of Creation.

I have yet to see any evidence that any of that is true.

It turns out I misremembered; Solars mostly ignored them altogether, including not using their ability to do the impossible to fix them. Hilariously, this means they actually treated the dragon kings better than Autochthon. Poor guy just can't win.

[TheCountAlucard]

And the dragon kings also fought.

That makes no sense; one of the big reasons the gods chose to exalt humanity instead of any of a thousand other choices was because humanity was one of the few things not under the Primordial Geas.

[Gensh]

That makes no sense; one of the big reasons the gods chose to exalt humanity instead of any of a thousand other choices was because humanity was one of the few things not under the Primordial Geas.

"Thus, when the gods created the Exalted and warred against the primordials, the dragon kings fought alongside them and helped to slay the primordials and their allies. However, while the primordials greatly underestimated the power of the great mass of humanity and of the newly created Exalts, they understood the danger posed by the dragon kings. As a result, the primordials slaughtered the rebellious dragon kings by the tens of millions, using weapons that utterly destroyed both their spirits and their bodies, thus preventing their rebirth."

- Dragon Kings p. 10

[TheCountAlucard]

- Dragon Kings p. 10

You'll note I didn't say that such text didn't exist - merely that it is, in its entirety, nonsensical.

It's comparable to seeing a published segment of text in one of the Exalted books, explaining that the gods chose humanity because Dragon Kings can't sport a fantastic rack.

[Tavar]

You know, I keep hearing this repeated over and over. I'm sorry that you're the one who gets quoted, Gensh. But it is impossible. For balance of power equal power is necessary between all parties.

That presupposes that equal power is the best state. Of course, as it is now, the Bond is part of the whole Grimdark phase of Exalted. Where everything is crap, and only going to get crappier.

You heard this where, Tavar?

Exalted forums, from Holden and a couple other writers. It might not happen(they aren't all powerful), but they both want it, and have some reason to be right(originally, starmetal as divine soulsteel was simply an option).


@TheCountAlucard and Gensh: well, first off, they weren't a threat to the Primordials themselves, but they were a threat to the Primordial's lesser souls or slave races. The things which would need to be destroyed in order for the Exalted to actually kill the primordials themselves.

Also, one difference is that the Dragon Kings were already powerful. Heck, they held humanity in bondage for some time. So, it's likely that the Sun didn't think it was really necessary to give them special treatment, as well as some other factors.

[Gensh]

You'll note I didn't say that such text didn't exist - merely that it is, in its entirety, nonsensical.

Half of Exalted doesn't make sense. By bolding your statement, you implied it was a rebuttal to my claim that the dragon kings actually suffered more for the War, to the point of their peaceful civilization's collapse. In any case, it makes sense in the context that A) the dragon kings were apparently created by gods and B) mortals, even mortals as mighty as the dragon kings, were incapable of truly harming them.

It's comparable to seeing a published segment of text in one of the Exalted books, explaining that the gods chose humanity because Dragon Kings can't sport a fantastic rack.

Humans were chosen to receive the shards for the same reason raksha died en masse trying to eat them during the First Age: they have something bizarre, special, and somewhat explosive in their souls. Additionally, most other races were either too close to beasts or too hierarchical. Humans were chosen for the same reasons they are in D&D: no tendency to law or chaos, no level adjustment, no attribute penalties, one free feat at first level.

[Lord Raziere]

More Shogunate Stuff

I looked at wonders of the lost age, and figured that while the Shogunate wouldn't be that big on creating new forms of transportation- except for the Swift Rider and a Shogunate Excellent Air Boat analogue- they would rather enhance existing forms of transportation with artifacts instead.

The Unrefined concepts

Horseshoes of Swiftness
Artifact 2
Commitment: 5m
Invented during the Shogunate, the Horseshoes of red, blue and white jade were used to make mounts go faster for their Terrestrial riders.
When committed and put on a horse, the horses speed is doubled for the committed rider, anyone else riding it won't get any benefits whatsoever.

Horseshoes of Aquatic Striding
Artifact 2
Commitment: 5m
These Black Jade Shogunate Horseshoes allowed the Dragon-Blooded's steeds to gallop across water as if they were on land as long as the committed rider rode them.

Blue Jade Wings of the Pegasus
Artifact 2
Commitment: 5m
The Shogunate saw many Dragon-Blooded horses outfitted with these cybernetics fly through the sky, while they were slower than Swift Riders, they were cheaper.
When the committed rider pays 3m, the mount gains the Wings mutation for as long as the committed rider stays on, when the rider dismounts the blue jade returns to normal and the rider will have pay 3m to fly again once he gets back on.

Armor of the Terrestrial Steed
Artifact 3
Commitment: 8m
Soak: +6L/5B
Hardness: +4L/4B
The Shogunate Dragon-Blooded made sure to protect their steeds when going into battle with this White Jade armor with a red lance tip on the horses helm for charging and ramming attacks
The committed rider and the mount both gain the soak and hardness listed in addition to armor they already have.
The mount can make charging attack at the Dragon-Blooded's command that goes forward (10 x Dragon-Blooded's Essence) yards and deals The Dragon-Blooded's (Stamina +Melee +Strength)L made with the rider's (Ride+Dexterity), that knocks those it hit back (Essence) yards.

Armored Turtle Carriage
Artifact 3
Commitment: 9m
A white Jade Shogunate carriage pulled by horses. Its wheels, bottom and top are all white jade plate, granting it a hardness of 11B/11L and a Soak of 14B/14L. The carriage is made to look like its turtle shell name sake.
It was often used to transport goods and supplies or Sworn Brotherhoods across land, and included a Small Essence Cannon mounted on a turret complete with a hearthstone in the back to fend off pursuers, along with two sides windows to fire at enemies with personal ranged weapons
It only needs one pilot to keep the horses running and can hold up to five passengers.
This vehicle was widespread during the Shogunate, but far fewer exist in this Age of Sorrows.
Health Levels:
Ux7/Mx12/Cx5/Ix3/D

[Story Time]

Why didn't the Unconquered Sun simply blow up the Balorian Crusade with DayStar?

The...semi-official answer is, "He did not want Creation to fear him, but to trust him as its protector."

The true answer is probably something along the lines of, "We forgot about the DayStar when we were typing it up. Sorry!"

That presupposes that equal power is the best state. Of course, as it is now, the Bond is part of the whole Grimdark phase of Exalted. Where everything is crap, and only going to get crappier.

Spoiler

Show

Personal Bias: I hate Grim-Dark.

With that out of the way, I have to say that if there is one thing I have learned about healthy relationships it is that equality makes gravy. It seems to me that dis-harmonious fans of Exalted keep wishing to equalize the power scale ( mechanics ) between Lunars and Solars while still defining ( through Setting and Themes ) their characters as independent and different from Solars.

My concern is not really the supposition of what the best state is, though. My main focus is all of the...fanatics that seem continue to push the agenda that Lunars are not right. Whether they are correct or not is not the object of my purpose. Attempting to identify what they feel is wrong and then perhaps offering alternatives to adjust it would be a better use of my time.

Of course, my personal bias also flows in the same direction as I never felt that Lunars were quite right as depicted in the Second Edition manual.

Spoiler

Show

In far-off day-dreams I've also entertained the wondering idea that some fans might want to see role-reversals between Solar-tier and Lunar-tier characters.

Exalted forums, from Holden and a couple other writers. It might not happen(they aren't all powerful), but they both want it, and have some reason to be right(originally, starmetal as divine soulsteel was simply an option).

Cool! I'll take that as good news then. I didn't really like the Dead Husk Theory anyway.

[Tavar]

The...semi-official answer is, "He did not want Creation to fear him, but to trust him as its protector."

The true answer is probably something along the lines of, "We forgot about the DayStar when we were typing it up. Sorry!"

The fact that none of the Incarnae's did anything during the Balorian Crusade is that the games are just too enjaging.

And, that semi-official answer is only regarding why he didn't use it during the Primordial War. And, there are apparently other reasons as well.

Personal Bias: I hate Grim-Dark.

You're in luck: most, if not all, of the developers feel the same.

With that out of the way, I have to say that if there is one thing I have learned about healthy relationships it is that equality makes gravy. It seems to me that dis-harmonious fans of Exalted keep wishing to equalize the power scale ( mechanics ) between Lunars and Solars while still defining ( through Setting and Themes ) their characters as independent and different from Solars.

The issue is that, fundamentally, the setting is built on the assumption that they aren't equal. There's already trouble due to the fact that 300 celestial exaltations did nothing for 1500 years. Making them Solar level would only make things worse.

Plus, at this point, rewriting the entire setting to make all the celestials equal....it's going to leave a bad taste in some people's mouths.

My concern is not really the supposition of what the best state is, though. My main focus is all of the...fanatics that seem continue to push the agenda that Lunars are not right. Whether they are correct or not is not the object of my purpose. Attempting to identify what they feel is wrong and then perhaps offering alternatives to adjust it would be a better use of my time.

Of course, my personal bias also flows in the same direction as I never felt that Lunars were quite right as depicted in the Second Edition manual.

Not exactly sure what you mean/are referring to in the first paragraph here, especially with regards to them 'not being right'

Cool! I'll take that as good news then. I didn't really like the Dead Husk Theory anyway.

Personally, I've liked the idea that they're fateful moments that have come to an end. With the caveat that the natural death of a god is always a fateful moment. Now, the whole 'murder god's thing' is just a rumor that anti-sidereal god's spread.

Now, the fact that Sidereals have killed gods on false charges is true. But that's usually because the crime they commited, harboring solars, isn't actually a crime, but is dangerous.

[aetherialDawn]

But if it isn't Divine Soulsteel, then how will Infernals kidnap and ritually sacrifice gods to get some?

Will they simply NOT have to commit horrible crimes to get it?