General Exalted Discussion Thread VII: Playground Eternal Essence

[Gensh]

Personal Bias: I hate Grim-Dark.

Personal Bias: Faffles and Malfeas deserve Solar shards more than the average Solar
Incidentally, that one really awesome blacksmith Solar who wasn't crazy's name is Sayn. Because he's actually sane! Ahaha! We're not paying you to write bad humor; get to work.

My concern is not really the supposition of what the best state is, though. My main focus is all of the...fanatics that seem continue to push the agenda that Lunars are not right. Whether they are correct or not is not the object of my purpose. Attempting to identify what they feel is wrong and then perhaps offering alternatives to adjust it would be a better use of my time.

Well, as has been said many times before, Lunars were written as barbarian warlords and only later had all their actual fluff added on. If you removed all instances of the name from the totality of the fluff and gave it to a stranger to read, they wouldn't be able to tell the different books were talking about the same group. That, specifically, is what is wrong with Lunars. While I may argue that Solars don't have a clear-cut theme in their Charms, at least they have the whole "Lawgiver" big damn hero thing going on in the story sections. Lunars don't really have an identity like that. They're Stewards, but they're also barbarians, but they're also the Solars' whipping boys, etc.

In far-off day-dreams I've also entertained the wondering idea that some fans might want to see role-reversals between Solar-tier and Lunar-tier characters.

That comes up sometimes. It doesn't really work for the assumptions the setting makes, though.

The issue is that, fundamentally, the setting is built on the assumption that they aren't equal. There's already trouble due to the fact that 300 celestial exaltations did nothing for 1500 years. Making them Solar level would only make things worse.

Pretty much this. As it stands, 2.5 will be a power-down, but exactly what changes beyond the horrifying lethality remains to be seen.

Plus, at this point, rewriting the entire setting to make all the celestials equal....it's going to leave a bad taste in some people's mouths.

Honestly, I don't see a fanmade 3rd edition as being so bad. I mean, it would be hell for whomever attempted to write it, but as far as the series goes, the current edition has entirely too much detritus. A hard reboot is what's needed, but it would certainly take a careful hand not to kill one too many sacred cows.

Personally, I've liked the idea that they're fateful moments that have come to an end. With the caveat that the natural death of a god is always a fateful moment. Now, the whole 'murder god's thing' is just a rumor that anti-sidereal god's spread.

While I like the idea that Sidereals really are that kind of jerk and my "everything is souls" theory from a humor perspective, that one is certainly better story-wise.

But if it isn't Divine Soulsteel, then how will Infernals kidnap and ritually sacrifice gods to get some?

Will they simply NOT have to commit horrible crimes to get it?

Wait. There are benefits to ritually sacrificing gods other than pleasure?

[aetherialDawn]

Wait. There are benefits to ritually sacrificing gods other than pleasure?

Yes there are, my good sir! Why, not only do you get the initial pleasure, but you may then go and find the fallen star that was once assigned to that god and forge his broken remnant into a brutal ritual dagger for the NEXT god after you've bathed it in Vitriol to twist it into something terrifying enough to make Ebby proud!
(Ebby allows this, since he benefits more than you. This time.)

[Gensh]

Yes there are, my good sir! Why, not only do you get the initial pleasure, but you may then go and find the fallen star that was once assigned to that god and forge his broken remnant into a brutal ritual dagger for the NEXT god after you've bathed it in Vitriol to twist it into something terrifying enough to make Ebby proud!
(Ebby allows this, since he benefits more than you. This time.)

Bah. Steve can keep his permission; I'm a Malfean Defiler anyway.

>Heuristic Logos Shintai
>Viridian Legend Exoskeleton
>I. AM. IRON. MAN.

[Xefas]

There's only one way to fix the Abyssal Exalted.

Spoiler

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Severing Celestial Attachment
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Swallowing the Scorpion

Shedding the yoke of the fallen titans was but the first step along the Infernal's path of learning how to gut himself with a cosmic shiv he does not fully understand. In the process of learning this charm, he comprehends two more possibilities.

Firstly, the Infernal may shear dead memories off of his own Exaltation. Metaphorical chainsaw-hands sprout from the sides of his soul and eviscerate chunks of old people caught in its grille. This allows him to voluntarily eliminate points of the Past Life background, Savant background, Past Life merit, or Throwback flaw, converting them into 3xp per dot eliminated. This power can even function on the Unwoven Coadjutor background - it cannot remove the coadjutor, but it can significantly dismember it until it stops talking.

Secondly, the Infernal may hack unceremoniously at an unsightly silver cyst embedded in the side of his Exaltation. If he chooses to, he may dig the cyst out entirely. Doing so removes the concept of the "Solar/Lunar Bond" from his Exaltation. His Lunar Mate, wherever they are, immediately converts all dots of their Solar Bond background into experience (3xp per dot), and if they already possess an intimacy for the Infernal, the player of the Lunar may choose to remove the intimacy from their character, representing whether it was a true feeling or one enforced by the Bond. This change is permanent, even through subsequent reincarnations, unless similar magic is used to artificially reattach the Bond.

Abhorrence-Smiting Vengeance
Cost: - (10m, 1wp); Mins: Martial Arts 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: -
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Nowhere to Run

The Yozi fear the Underworld and all that it represents. And rightly so - they are weak. The Infernal Monster is strong. It does not fear. It hates.

This charm enhances its prerequisite. When utilizing the Martial Arts 5+ function of Nowhere to Run, creatures of death may be considered viable candidates in addition to Gods and Demons.

Furthermore, the arcane link produced by Nowhere to Run can be sensed accurately even across planar boundaries. In most cases, this does nothing of importance. However, if the victim is in the Underworld, the Infernal can detect where they are in relation to them as if the Underworld were overlaid upon Creation.

Lastly, if the Infernal is in Creation, and a marked victim in the Underworld would be the most viable target for the Martial Arts 5+ function of Nowhere to Run were they in the corresponding position in Creation, then the Infernal may choose them as a target anyway. In this case, the Infernal must pay a 10 mote and 1 willpower surcharge to focus their hatred into a transcendent force that crashes through the boundary between Creation and the Underworld, taking him with it. The Infernal appears in the corresponding location in the Underworld, mid attack. In this case, that use of Leaping Smash Technique is considered 'unexpected'.

This charm offers no special means for the Infernal to return to Creation. He must find his own way.

Morbid Antithetical Empathy
Cost: -; Mins: Martial Arts 6, Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Native
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Abhorrence-Smiting Vengeance, Eternal Monstrous Hunt

This charm is an odd one that may only be innovated by Green Sun Princes that, somehow (and I'm certain we don't know how one would do this), have found themselves entirely without a Solar/Lunar Bond. This bond is a natural facet of the Infernal Monster, as it is for every Green Sun Prince. Without it, they must seek to restore themselves. However, the Infernal Monster is not a stagnant beast - it evolves, it changes, becoming more vicious and terrible than any who could stand against it. Greater than the Moon that follows the Sun, is the Death that follows Life. There could be no grander horror than a Monster that has conquered death itself, and holds its power in their hands. (Especially when death is soft and jiggly, which is surprisingly often the case.)

When one of the Abyssal Exalted is marked by an application of the Infernal's 'Nowhere to Run' charm, they feel an Obvious opportunity to shackle themselves inexorably to the Infernal's Exaltation. Should they voluntarily accept, the arcane link forges a Bond between the two Exalts as strong as the one inflicted by Luna long ago.

The Abyssal may purchase dots of the Solar Bond background at the cost of 3xp per dot whenever they have a little downtime to meditate on such things. In addition, any intimacy the Abyssal possesses for their Infernal mate cannot be tampered with by magical means - however, the Abyssal is free to change that intimacy of their own accord by natural processes.

Finally, an Abyssal and Infernal mated pair is afforded one last benefit. While within (Infernal's Essence x 10 yards) of one another, they may choose to feed on each other's Essence. Outside the Underworld, the Infernal may choose to stop naturally respiring Essence in order to allow the Abyssal to devour its primordial goodness, converting it harmlessly into necrotic Essence highly reminiscent of the darkness given off by the Neverborn themselves, respiring Essence as if they were in the Underworld. While an Abyssal feeds on their mate's Essence, they are considered Outside Fate.

Inside the Underworld, the Abyssal's living self may act as a filter for the necrotic Essence of the blighted land, ceasing their own Essence respiration, but feeding the Infernal, allowing them to respire as normal.

These benefit are shared by all subsequent incarnations of the Abyssal and Infernal, so long as their Bond remains.

Devouring Black Wings
Cost: -; Mins: Essence 6; Type: Permanent
Keywords: Heretical
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Severing Celestial Attachment, The Dance of the Thrashing Dragon

To even conceive of, much less devise, this charm requires a Green Sun Prince to have somehow acquired an Abyssal mate (we have no idea how this would be possible, but we're sure you'll figure something out), and to have innovated a titanic charmset from Howl of the Devil Tiger and Flames of the Rising Phoenix that incorporates death, undeath, and/or Oblivion as a major theme. After that, the actual execution is not too difficult. The Infernal has already proven himself capable of dominating the Yozi. How would it not be easier to lord one's self over their more pathetic cousins?

An Infernal that possesses this charm may, as a miscellaneous action, lay hands on their Abyssal mate and offer them redemption. Should the Abyssal accept the terms, the Infernal forcibly guts them with his sharpened Exaltation, tearing the rotted shackles of the Neverborn from their heart. Thirteen in total, each shackle broken leaves gobbets of frozen necrotic viscera upon the ground and grinds one aggravated health level from their host.

Should the Abyssal survive this, their ordeal has not yet concluded. It is the nature of the Abyssal Exaltation to be bound. And bound so it shall be. In the place of their former chains, the Infernal disgorges his own insidious fetters.

The Abyssal loses their Resonance track. In its place, they gains a Limit track, which fills when the Abyssal takes actions in direct opposition with the Infernal's First Excellency, and suffers the Torment innovated by the Infernal's Dance of the Thrashing Dragon, and may be reduced by their customized Precipitous Fiat.

They also lose all dots of Whispers they previously possessed, as well as all Solar Charms and all charms with the Avatar keyword, converting all lost items into the corresponding experience (3xp per dot of Whispers).

The Abyssal may innovate new charms with the Avatar keyword, even ones that are extremely similar to the ones they lost. However, they use their dots in Solar Bond in place of Whispers for their Avatar rating, and may never again gain dots of Whispers.

Finally, they may never learn Unconquered Hero's Faith, or a similar charm. They may never transform into a Solar Exalted, for they are already redeemed.

These alterations to the Abyssal Exaltation remain throughout subsequent reincarnations.

[aetherialDawn]

Xefas shows us the way. The Infernal Monster will solve all problems with metaphysical violence. I can only imagine what would happen if a Meschlum-style Raksha got ahold of an Infernal Exaltation.

It's this sort of thing that makes me want to play an Infernal Monster stylist, but I remain resolute. Mind-Hand Manipulation will prove itself superior!

I feel like I should be able to use Principle-Invoking Onslaught with the 'inflict Crippling effects' upgrade of MHM to turn people's eyes to horrifying poison and their limbs into air, before I cut them open and see how many organs an Exalt can survive with, when the others are made into lava.
Who says Science is outside combat time? I'll turn them into stone, piece by screaming piece.

[Lord Raziere]

ok, not that that isn't cool, but I'd rather have my Abyssal without my Infernal and my Lunar without my Infernal mmmk? to me they are separate dishes.

Abyssal evolution charm concepts:

Spoiler

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None of these will be mechanics….just concept.

Shedding the Mortal Coil
The Abyssal goes into his Monstrance of Celestial Portion. Then they allow Oblivion to destroy their physical form utterly.
However, since they are already inside their Monstrance, the Abyssal hangs onto their Exaltation easily and uses its power to turn themselves into a ghost, but still keeping all charms and their Exaltation.

Haunt the World Once Again
The Abyssal learns how to materialize and dematerialize at will, even in places where spirits can't normally dematerialize.

Rise of the Ghost Lord
The Abyssal cuts his ties to Oblivion and Resonance, and instead draws upon his memories of his past, gaining some kind of limit break based on his nostalgic memories.

Dead Man's Treasures
The Ghost Lord creates a number of fetters.

Nostalgic Crypt Evolution
The Ghost Lord, something learning charms from his memories of the past

Ghost Lord's Regal Visage
The Ghost Lord can shapechange like a Death Lord

aaaaand that is all I can think of.

[TheCountAlucard]

Eh, Abyssals can already learn Ghost Charms using Necromancy.

@V: Nah, don't think so.

[Turalisj]

Anyone else notice that Alucard's limiter release is being undone?

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, Abyssals can already learn Ghost Charms using Necromancy.

HAH! No. better than ghost charms. Abyssal ghost charms. as in, ghost charms only Abyssals can learn, doing ghost stuff better than Ghosts. either that or doing stuff based on nostalgic memories, like a charm based upon a memory of charging into battle.

[TheCountAlucard]

HAH! No. better than ghost charms. Abyssal ghost charms. As in, ghost charms only Abyssals can learn, doing ghost stuff better than Ghosts.

Oh, so you mean Abyssal Charms.

either that or doing stuff based on nostalgic memories, like a charm based upon a memory of charging into battle.

Whatever you say, then.

[Xefas]

Infernals are not the heroes that Abyssals want. They're the heroes that Abyssals need.

[Lord Raziere]

ok, I like Infernals too, but that is sorta going too far there Xefas. I'd like my Abyssals to be awesome too. No Infernals needed. The aliens of life can stay outta my kings of death thank you.

Alucard: touche, touche….

[TheCountAlucard]

Alucard: touche, touche….

Truth be told, though, I do actually like that idea somewhat - it lends support to the idea of the Deathlords inadverdently training the Abyssals to be their replacements.

[Lord Raziere]

Well yeah, except for the "replace Resonance with Nostalgia-based limit" part, which might be the point where the Abyssal/Ghost Lord might start figuring stuff out on their own….

as for how such limit would work….probably the Abyssal tying themselves to their worst memory they ever lived through. The concept of tying to themselves to that memory to break free of Oblivion and such, is that that worst memory is strong enough to be worse than Oblivion to them. As in they literally risking reliving the worst moment of their life in rejecting Oblivion.

The Ghost Lords would be like shell-shocked veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder turned up to 11- the more things that remind them of that memory, the more limit they gain until reaches 10 and they are literally reliving in their head the worst moment of their lives. a specter that forever haunts them.

I like this idea why? because the Abyssal is basically saying "I would rather live the worst moment of my life over and over again, then allow Oblivion to destroy everything" its an acceptance of the very worst parts of life that defies everything Oblivion stands for- to destroy everything so that it might as well have never happened.

[TheCountAlucard]

That doesn't sound as much fun, but hey, that's the thing about homebrew, now ain't it?

Will be switching back to Infernals for four weeks after this Saturday - some of the PCs intend to take on a group of the Wyld Hunt that's come to Gem.

[Fortuna]

So, I was poking around my brain, and this fell out. What are your thoughts on this as a description of what charms are/should be (kind of both) like?

A Solar charm lets you do what you could do before, but moreso. For example, a Melee charm lets you cut so precisely that you wound someone's soul.
A Lunar charm gives you a tool that can do many things. For example, a Strength charm both gives you bonuses in combat and helps you tear things apart, while allowing you to gain a Strength boost in your totem form.
A Sidereal charm lets you do something within theme, but utterly supernatural. For example, a Dodge charm lets you dodge anything, regardless of how applicable dodging actually is.
An Abyssal charm... sadly, it's like a Solar charm but angstier, except when exploring the theme of killing lots of people. For example, a Craft charm that helps you build super-death-weapons. Until Abyssals are something other than dark Solars, this is more or less unfixable, since they have no real themes of their own (unlike the other problematic ones).
A Dragonblooded charm is much like a Solar charm, but emphasizes teamwork (so multiple dragonblooded with the same charm often reinforce). For example, an Integrity charm that gives large bonuses to defend against a social attack, and gives allies with the same charm a bigger bonus when they next use it in the scene.
An Infernal charm explores their patron's theme, and gives them entirely unprecedented abilities. For example, a Malfeas charm that lets them shoot green flame from their nostrils.
An Alchemical charm is much like an Infernal charm, but they all focus on Autocthon's themes.

[Volthawk]

But if it isn't Divine Soulsteel, then how will Infernals kidnap and ritually sacrifice gods to get some?

Will they simply NOT have to commit horrible crimes to get it?

Similarly, how would that work with higher-Essence Abyssals and Soul-Forging Fury? I mean, it kinda works with the principle that as ghosts turn into soulsteel, gods turn into starmetal.

An Abyssal charm... sadly, it's like a Solar charm but angstier, except when exploring the theme of killing lots of people. For example, a Craft charm that helps you build super-death-weapons. Until Abyssals are something other than dark Solars, this is more or less unfixable, since they have no real themes of their own (unlike the other problematic ones).

Really, Abyssals are similar to Solars in regards to excellence, just that excellence is focused on causing death, decay and fear (see the Craft charms that only work when making weapons, or Medicine charms that only repair undead, and don't work on the living).

[ShadowFighter15]

Anyone else think we need more Malfeas Charms after seeing this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpviyn8ol9s

[Gensh]

Anyone else think we need more Malfeas Charms after seeing this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpviyn8ol9s

There's never a reason not to have more Malfeas Charms.

As far as that video goes, most of it's actually already covered. What I'm seeing is an Infernal Monster stylist who activates Devil Tyrant Shintai about midway through the fight. The energy blasts are just Star-Piercing Spear of Glory. The video did give me some ideas for more Demon City Beautification Charms, though, so I might have new material over the weekend.

[Lord Raziere]

An Abyssal charm... sadly, it's like a Solar charm but angstier, except when exploring the theme of killing lots of people. For example, a Craft charm that helps you build super-death-weapons. Until Abyssals are something other than dark Solars, this is more or less unfixable, since they have no real themes of their own (unlike the other problematic ones).

ah! but this why I made the Ghost Lords!

Nostalgia Charms! charms drawn from the memories of their life and their previous ones that round out their charm set. they would transcend the death and destruction to create charms from their own memories to do things beyond the Death Lords and the Neverborn's intended goal of destruction.

[Xefas]

An Abyssal charm... sadly, it's like a Solar charm but angstier, except when exploring the theme of killing lots of people. For example, a Craft charm that helps you build super-death-weapons. Until Abyssals are something other than dark Solars, this is more or less unfixable, since they have no real themes of their own (unlike the other problematic ones).

Well, maybe if they'd 'trade-up' in the patron market, they'd have a few more themes to work with.

[aetherialDawn]

Well, maybe if they'd 'trade-up' in the patron market, they'd have a few more themes to work with.

This is probably the real reason behind every Akuma (all of them. All the Akuma.)

[Drascin]

Eh, given that the choice is between a bunch of insane dead guys who want to blow up the world and a bunch of egotistical autistic children who would blow up the world inadvertently, I'd call it a patron sidegrade if anything and not a trade-up, really .

[Gensh]

Eh, given that the choice is between a bunch of insane dead guys who want to blow up the world and a bunch of egotistical autistic children who would blow up the world inadvertently, I'd call it a patron sidegrade if anything and not a trade-up, really .

That's why everyone should sign away their freedom in this totally nonbinding* membership contract and join the Demon City Beautification Committee. We know that no matter who does what, Creation will inevitably go up in flames. We intend to be nowhere near when it happens by flooding all the yozis with new, more socially-acceptable Charms, thus forcing them to be more socially-acceptable. Then, once hell has become the best place to live ever and wholly capable of supporting human life without inflicting major mutations, we'll use information stolen directly from Autochthon's brain to leave Creation behind forever. Enjoy it while it lasts, you jerks, enjoy it while it lasts.

*It really is nonbinding, but you will burst into flames if you do anything to compromise our mission.

[Lord Raziere]

well it depends…..what would think would be better? the guys who you KNOW are going to destroy the world, or the guys who MIGHT destroy the world, but you don't know HOW because y'know…..Egotistical autistic children. also, said children are crazy and are not good at making plans.

the insane dead guys however thought up of something that could blow up the world reliably and also have a second contagion they just need to find. the Death Lords are the bigger threat, cause the Reclamation probably will never happen in a million years. the destruction of the world is a bit more probable as the first attempt was 90% successful. before they got those 100 guys who will help blow up the world whether they like it or not.

so yeah, it depends do you want:
the patron that you can more easily rebel against?
or
the patron that is the actual threat and is more worth it when you do rebel against them?

cause while the Yozis are easily rebelled against and defied….so what? you took the easy one. big deal. meanwhile rebelling against the Death Lords and the Neverborn is an epic quest that when you complete…..you can laugh at the Infernals all you want. They got their rebellion accidentally dropped into their lap. You worked tooth and nail to do the same and therefore your victory is more valuable.
Anyone can rebel against the Yozis, I mean heck its hard-coded into the Exaltations with Acts of Villainy.
It takes a true rebel to defy the Neverborn while Resonance keeps building up and all your powers do is kill things.
cause if the system is built towards rebellion…..it isn't really rebellion, its the system working as it is designed, even if its a bad system designed by crazy people that didn't intend for rebellion.

the Yozis and the Death Lords are both dictators….its just that the Yozis are incompetent ones who won't can't hold power for more than year, the death Lords are super-competent totalitarians who have read The Prince and took notes from Napoleon.
I'd rather be an Abyssal. Just so I could punch those Death Lords in the face with their own necromantic medicine and defeat the most powerful ghostly threats to the world, cause to me thats true rebellion.

and sure yes, the Infernals could also defeat the Death Lords, but the Abyssals don't have their super-awesome transhuman stuff, and therefore when they defeat the Death Lords with a knife that a Infernal would do with a claymore, who is more awesome, the guy who defeat the dragon with a claymore? or the guy who defeated the same dragon, using only a dagger? to me the guy with the dagger is more awesome, cause he doesn't need no claymore, he has a dagger and thats all he ever needed.

….huh I ramble a lot don't I?

[aetherialDawn]

The answer is that Infernals are more awesome, because while they have mechanics for their rebellion, so do Abyssals.
Abyssals turn into non-cursed Solars, and Infernals decide 'Screw it, I'm going to make my OWN toys'

So it's more like taking someone else's REALLY NICE knife perfectly suited to the job, or taking a really confusing and poorly-made knife, deciding this is simply not good enough, and inventing all the appropriate smithing on your own until you have a totally rocking claymore.

Then you destroy the people the knife was meant to destroy, and yeah, it's not as awesome - because they're beneath you after all the awesome you had to INVENT to get to that point. Every Infernal stands atop the process of bootstrapping their own Exaltation and self into an immortal Primordial of their own design.
Redeemed Abyssals just flicked their switch back to the original location. The switch was stuck and really hard to move, while the Infernals always had the potential inside them, but that switch was always there too. Taping it in the 'Death' position instead of the 'Sun' position doesn't mean that Abyssals didn't always have the 'Sun' position there as a potential.

Also, again, every Infernal Devil-Tiger bootstrapped a primordial into being.

If they wanted to make a 'kill the Neverborn properly' Primordial, then it's more impressive - Abyssals have that as their rebellion choice, becoming Solars. Infernals, faced with the sum totality of anything they could want, chose to do this with all their being.

[Lord Raziere]

huh? who said anything about Solars? I'm talking about killing the Death Lords while still being an Abyssal.

[aetherialDawn]

If you're still an Abyssal, then what makes consigning something to Oblivion special?

It just means you're a REALLY GOOD Abyssal, capable of sending even the Neverborn to Oblivion.*

Yes, that's awesome. No, it's not somehow better or even more noble than an Infernal who does the same.

What did you give up to destroy the Neverborn? Nothing, you always had it.
What did an Infernal give up to destroy the Neverborn? Everything that could be, and as show by Oramus, everything that couldn't be, and as shown by the Ebon Dragon, at least a few things that manage to be neither.

*Even if you send them to Lethe, that's more impressive, but fundamentally you are giving them death. It's not a death they were meant to have, but Oblivion isn't either.

A note: I don't meant to badmouth Abyssals. I actually think they're pretty cool, although they occupy a smaller creative area than Infernals do (That applies to everyone except possibly Ishvara, and even then only until one manages to Got Devil-Tiger.)
It's just... I certainly don't see how they're better than an Infernal who chooses that path, and I'm a natural Devil's Advocate.

[Drascin]

A note: I don't meant to badmouth Abyssals. I actually think they're pretty cool, although they occupy a smaller creative area than Infernals do (That applies to everyone except possibly Ishvara, and even then only until one manages to Got Devil-Tiger.)
It's just... I certainly don't see how they're better than an Infernal who chooses that path, and I'm a natural Devil's Advocate.

Well, yeah. Infernals are way worse nichestealers than Solars, and if we ever get charmsets for all the Yozis they'll be even more so - the phrase "there's a Yoziapp for that" is starting to worm itself into the fandom for a reason .

[golentan]

Speaking of which GRAAAH WANT METAGAOS SO BAD NOW!!!