General Exalted Discussion Thread VII: Playground Eternal Essence

[Drascin]

That's why I like the Solar Melee Charm that lets you make a Melee counterattack at any range. Mortal archers at eighty yards? Melee counterattack. Dynasts firing Essence artillery from a mile away? Melee counterattack. The Ebon Dragon, whilst in Malfeas, writes a scathing review of your teahouse, urging you to give up the business? Melee counterattack.

Now that would have been useful, yes. I will have to suggest it to the others. Well, not the poor twilight, he'd have died nonetheless, but the rest of us really could have done with something like that.

Though I have to say that "concept-level counterattack that goes through dimensions and distances" sounds way more like a Sidereal or Lunar charm than a Solar one to me, but I guess Solars do get to do everything.

Dealing with Thousand Forged Dragons just requires a few bargains with the Raksha. I'm sure this will go swimmingly. Nice, massive DV boosts as required, soak in the mid fifties (or more with a little effort), healing and bonus health levels... it's easy to even the playing ground. And it's not like that mortal had any use for his soul, is it?

Heh. The circle's opinions on Raksha are:

Zenith: Cannot be trusted, should be eradicated.
Twilight: Useful guinea pigs without much in the way of guilt.
Dragonblooded: Honorless wretches, they may burn for all I care.
Lunar (me): Nobles make such a satisfying crunch inside your mouth .

So yeah, bargains with the fae are not happening. Besides, springing the fae ruleset on an unsusecting ST is kind of a **** move .

[Lix Lorn]

So yeah, bargains with the fae are not happening. Besides, springing the fae ruleset on an unsusecting ST is kind of a **** move .

So is using unexpected attacks on a non-paranoia okay circle.

[Urpriest]

In any case, applying a phrase to an action is qualitative, which means the group needs to agree on its applicability. In short, it becomes a game about doing your actions in the way that everyone finds most entertaining. And if everyone at the table is entertained, guess what? YOU'RE PLAYING A GOOD GAME.

Either way, adding complexity certainly does not DECREASE the amount of bull that goes flying through the system. Raise your hand if you're NEVER argued with an ST over the applicability of your Charms. And lower your hand if you've never actually played more than a little Exalted.

Seriously, using a sword to deflect a speech is much more bull****y than anything I've ever seen in Aspect-like gameplay. And I've seen players use their programming skills to psychic-hack a Great Old One (believe it or not, it actually made a TON of sense based on the plot that had been building up).

The group's agreement has nothing to do with what makes them have fun and everything to do with who has a dominant personality. If you're the kind of person who can manipulate others in real life then you can have fun in the game, while if you can't, then you're sidelined. Real life already works like that. The whole reason we play games is because our characters can do things we can't, can have successes and achieve popularity that we are unable to. Even if you're arguing with the ST over the rules, your arguments are still fueled primarily by the rules text, not by your own ability to persuade.

Because really, if we had the ability to get people to agree with what we want because of how cool they think we are we'd be off making small talk and having sex like normal people.

[Reynard]

[spoiler]The group's agreement has nothing to do with what makes them have fun and everything to do with who has a dominant personality. If you're the kind of person who can manipulate others in real life then you can have fun in the game, while if you can't, then you're sidelined. Real life already works like that. The whole reason we play games is because our characters can do things we can't, can have successes and achieve popularity that we are unable to. Even if you're arguing with the ST over the rules, your arguments are still fueled primarily by the rules text, not by your own ability to persuade.

Because really, if we had the ability to get people to agree with what we want because of how cool they think we are we'd be off making small talk and having sex like normal people.[spoiler]

Instead of trying to get people to agree with you based on how cool they find you, convince them of how cool it'd be if things worked the way you want them too.

Basically, Stunt it.

[Tavar]

I'm saying that if you go around waving your power, you're going to get ganked by the bunch of things that are more powerful than you and hate you - or by things that are weaker than you but smarter, in point of fact.

I somewhat agree. Where I differ, I think, is that the limit for waving your power around. You seem to be saying that using any obvious charms or having an anima flare at all is going to get such a response, which isn't really what's supposed to happen. Oh, if you, as a Solar, flare your anima on the blessed Isle, then yes, it would happen. Or while inside thorns, and so on. But, those are the places that are the strongholds of your enemies. If you aren't there, you have quite a bit more leeway.

Here's the thing - 17 dice may not be "impressive" (with which I'd disagree, it actually is not that bad, hits a DV of 8 on average, which is in the range of DVs most people have. More dice than most characters have before excellencies), but unless you have like 16 DV it's going to hit you in the end. And with the damage it deals, one hit is game over - characters have 7 HP. Simple fact - if the ST hadn't allowed me to buy that perfect mid-fight, the Principle of Motion onslaught would have ended me. It, on the other hand, has like 50 HP and we're hitting it for one or two every attack tops (because Essence 3 ping).

There are other defensive charms besides PD, you know.

And so now, seeing my weakness, I'm forced to bite the bullet and admit the simple fact that much as I'd like, you can't survive in Exalted without hiding behind a perfect, and be on my way to buy a semi 2/7 combo, which means I'll be a combat focused character for whom combats will be terribly boring forever but at least will be able to perform what is supposed to. Go me .

I'd say it's more that, in Exalted, you cannot be a combat focused character if you don't have a PD, at least not if you have more than, say, 40xp or so.

Also, you don't really need a full suite against the dragon. If you had, say, a flurry breaker you could have been very effective against him. Or if you had charms that minimized onslaught penalties. Yes, PD's are important, given the current system, but it seems to me you're extrapolating too much.

I am combat focused. Just, on martial arts. Circlemates are Melee. Archers at eighty yards means at least two of us would be dead before we can reach them - hell, the Twilight actually died in the first surprise ambush because he never actually got a surprise negator.

If you don't have a PD, you can't really call yourself combat focused. It'd be like a DnD fighter calling himself a tank if he had a low ac, low con, and no other defenses. As for focusing on martial arts, it really depends on what martial arts you took. Most don't cover the core competencies of combat.

As for the archers...honestly, it doesn't really sound like it should have been that bad. They only get about 8 dice at best, so that means they need to coordinate attacks. The issue there is that coordinated attacks are a bit tricky to set up, even for elite soldiers. And, even then, there are several charms in the Solar Melee trees that would allow you to ignore such penalties outright.

[TheCountAlucard]

Though I have to say that "concept-level counterattack that goes through dimensions and distances" sounds way more like a Sidereal or Lunar charm than a Solar one to me, but I guess Solars do get to do everything.

Admittedly, you can only do it against social attacks and across realms of existence when you get to around Essence 6, IIRC.

[Lord Raziere]

hey everyone. I know how to defeat the Neverborn.

destroy their memories. their memories tie them to Creation, no memories means no connection to Creation, means they fall into Oblivion without anything else being destroyed. Abyssals are great at destroying things, so memories should be no problem.

edit: in fact there is an artifact for this! The Forgotten Blade! attack the Neverborn with that and you can destroy their memories, thus making them forget Creation/their rage/whatever and then they fall into Oblivion!

now to find out whether that would actually work….

[Sanguine]

hey everyone. I know how to defeat the Neverborn.

destroy their memories. their memories tie them to Creation, no memories means no connection to Creation, means they fall into Oblivion without anything else being destroyed. Abyssals are great at destroying things, so memories should be no problem.

edit: in fact there is an artifact for this! The Forgotten Blade! attack the Neverborn with that and you can destroy their memories, thus making them forget Creation/their rage/whatever and then they fall into Oblivion!

now to find out whether that would actually work….

You know what might be a slightly less suicidal option? Convince them to let go. Your Fetters only work as Fetters if you care about them.

[Weimann]

From what I understand, the Deathlords would be more than happy to properly die by any means. The problem isn't that they hold on to Creation, the problem is that Creation hold on to them (for some reason, I'm not sure if it's detailed anywhere). Making them forget would only cause them to be trapped and amnesiac, which may or may not be better for them, but they'd be equally trapped. Creation must be undone for them to be unfettered, that is the only option.

Canonically, that is.

[Sanguine]

From what I understand, the Deathlords would be more than happy to properly die by any means. The problem isn't that they hold on to Creation, the problem is that Creation hold on to them (for some reason, I'm not sure if it's detailed anywhere). Making them forget would only cause them to be trapped and amnesiac, which may or may not be better for them, but they'd be equally trapped. Creation must be undone for them to be unfettered, that is the only option.

Canonically, that is.

Firstly, Neverborn not Deathlords.

Secondly. Canonically Creation acts as a sort of super Fetter for them. Thus logically the same, or at least similar, rules apply to it as normal Fetters.

[Rockphed]

Mysterious Meat Machine

This device was formed from an Entertainer's inability to understand the difference between the inner thoughts and inner organs of the Creation-born. Since this is thoroughly impossible, it collapsed into the Machine instead, which is a fascinating device.

Shiny and blessed with a large opening, a small opening, and a single button, the Machine will efficiently convert emotion into tasty sausage, or flesh into happiness. Since tossing a dead enemy into the Machine provides both emotion and meat, it makes for truly glorious links.

3-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Machine is weirdly fascinating, despite being horribly wrong.
Shiftless Untamed Beauty - once you're tried its products, you'll never want anything else.
Unitary Being Forge - and everyone nearby is obviously your enemy and should be processed.
Heart Stealing Kiss - the Machine is will accept any amount of Temperance fed into it in order to make more sausage.
Ordinary Object Conjuration - and the sausages are perfect.

Now, just to convince my enemies to enter of their own free will and choice. I know, I shall promise them perfect sausage if they just sit on the little chair I shall place above the opening. Then, when they least suspect it, I shall dump them into the machine and keep all the sausage for myself. Heehehehehehe!

Any Worker worth its salt will have experienced the Curse of Namelessness. Good enough?

Thought not.

Nature Eliminating Knife lets you sacrifice your Ring (and thus your name) for more power - so long as you remain in All Consuming God Monster Stance, you transcend the Curse of Namelessness that would otherwise consume you. Better?

Still not.

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Ring of the Erased Self

The Ring was made when a Worker ascended to Nothingness, its Chimera Exultation erasing all it had ever been as the Ring was born from the void. Since, it has made its way through Creation, imposing its absent strictures upon any who dared to wear it.

1-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Ring is excessively anonymous.
Fall of Night Shadows the Truth - it hides its name and the name of whoever owns it.
Gladdening Visage - concealing any Wyld aura they may bear.
Heaven Rains Wisdom - and slipping around Fate's watch.
Untouchable Performer Technique - as its owner is nameless, to say ill of such a person is meaningless.
Spectral Transformation - indeed, the owner seems to waver and fade into shadow when exposed to bright light.
Mad God Mien - and no amount of counter magic will prevent the Ring's workings.

The Servant of Absence

When the Ring was made, a counterpart was formed for it, at the opposite end of Creation. Equally devoid of name or identity, the Servant seeks only to obey those who inspire it with a flicker of emotion - and only so long as the emotion remains. While the Servant remains, it will not allow even death to keep it from its self appointed duty, and it will loyally follow its master into any and all dangers.

1-dot Behemoth
Assumption of Dreams and Passion - the Servant is more than perfectly disguised as itself.
Assumption of the Person's Heart - so it will bond itself to the closest mortal and reform their body into its own. Should the mortal die, it will simply take over the next - perhaps even its killer.
Gladdening Visage - there is nothing odd about the Servant.
Heaven Rains Wisdom - not even in the eyes of Fate.
Untouchable Performer Technique - nor will anyone think ill of what it does to accomplish its duty.
Surpassing Excellence - the Servant is remarkably good at proclaiming the virtues of any god or goddess that does not exist.

The Absent Faith

It is said that should the Servant obtain the Ring, it will discover its true purpose, and so its empty praises of non-existent gods shall gain true power - while remaining dedicated only to entities that cannot benefit, or be aware, of them, as they have neither names nor being.

Where the Faith is preached, mortals lose their souls yet do not notice the loss, calling for blessings upon one who has neither a name nor any identity.

3-dot Oneiromancy
Assumption of the City's Heart - the Faith is fairly widespread, but not that extensive.
Mad God Mien - it's true Faith in nothing, counter magic is pointless.
Heart Stealing Kiss - the Faith consumes one virtue from those who follow it.
Manacles of Virtue - and replaces the virtue with itself, so that the faithful are no different from what they were before pledging themselves to a power that does not exist.

(Take 4 of these - one per virtue - and go to town)

Now, if I actually knew more about this Nameless Follower, something useful might ensue.

You say that, but you have actually managed to encompass the spirit and power of The Nameless Follower with the little I gave. I think this is a sign that I must ensure he uses grace magic whenever he comes in to being. Surely there is no problem with that.

[aetherialDawn]

Firstly, Neverborn not Deathlords.

Secondly. Canonically Creation acts as a sort of super Fetter for them. Thus logically the same, or at least similar, rules apply to it as normal Fetters.

If I recall correctly, as Primordials, the Neverborn are plain incapable of letting go of Creation any more than She Who Lives in Her Name can.

*Looks at Adorjan.*

[Sanguine]

If I recall correctly, as Primordials, the Neverborn are plain incapable of letting go of Creation any more than She Who Lives in Her Name can.

*Looks at Adorjan.*

We are talking about Exalted here. Mere impossibilities can't stop us.

[KaganMonk]

While I don't know the ghost side of the mechanics, I thought one of the problems was that Creation operated on a reincarnation platform, but the Primordials are too big to simply reincarnate and their inability to reincarnate opened the Void and Oblivion. Based on that, I'd hear a couple solutions, such as cutting them into smaller pieces so they could reincarnate (metaphysical cutting, I'm guessing).

[Sanguine]

While I don't know the ghost side of the mechanics, I thought one of the problems was that Creation operated on a reincarnation platform, but the Primordials are too big to simply reincarnate and their inability to reincarnate opened the Void and Oblivion. Based on that, I'd hear a couple solutions, such as cutting them into smaller pieces so they could reincarnate (metaphysical cutting, I'm guessing).

All pretty much true. Though the cutting might not work for the same reason that they stop just short of falling into Oblivion. Creation acts as a Fetter counterbalancing it's pull; and theoretically that of Lethe.

[aetherialDawn]

We are talking about Exalted here. Mere impossibilities can't stop us.

Adorjan has shown that quite well. All it takes is killing the right Big Monster, and hoping against hope that you don't get another Sacheverell.

As for metaphysical cutting: It is rather probably that the Neverborn would still be Fettered.

ADORJAN CHARMS TO THE RESCUE!
Love lets go!

[DeadManSleeping]

The group's agreement has nothing to do with what makes them have fun and everything to do with who has a dominant personality. If you're the kind of person who can manipulate others in real life then you can have fun in the game, while if you can't, then you're sidelined. Real life already works like that. The whole reason we play games is because our characters can do things we can't, can have successes and achieve popularity that we are unable to. Even if you're arguing with the ST over the rules, your arguments are still fueled primarily by the rules text, not by your own ability to persuade.

Because really, if we had the ability to get people to agree with what we want because of how cool they think we are we'd be off making small talk and having sex like normal people.

Every person with a non-dominant personality who's played a FATE game or Wushu that I've talked to has expressed sincere enjoyment of the game. That includes me, back when I was a lot more shy and disliked.

And in any case, I can't really agree with the idea that people game because they can't find acceptance in the real world. I think you'll find that a good portion of gamers, perhaps even the majority, have healthy social lives. The hobby lasts a good deal past the age of getting shoved into lockers (and many of us were never really bullied around to begin with).

Also, if you think Stunts don't work on the "rule of being liked" rather than the "rule of cool", I think you might not be looking at your game table too carefully.

[Lord Raziere]

oh hey, I got an idea for Abyssal charms:

harmful side-effects to enhance things. such as draining a few motes from your ally to enhance this charm to run faster or something, you know, enhancing things beyond even Solar capabilities through sacrificial stuff. an Abyssal can do something outside killing, through sacrifice to make them better at something.

or something like that...

[chaoskristy21]

From what I understand, the Deathlords would be more than happy to properly die by any means. The problem isn't that they hold on to Creation, the problem is that Creation hold on to them (for some reason, I'm not sure if it's detailed anywhere). Making them forget would only cause them to be trapped and amnesiac, which may or may not be better for them, but they'd be equally trapped. Creation must be undone for them to be unfettered, that is the only option.

Canonically, that is.

That, and the Neverborn came up with this whole "destroy Creation" plan whilst half asleep and angry. Their Essence is tied to the Underworld; it's possible that even if NOTHING ELSE EXISTS, they might still be there.

My idea? With the advent of the Abyssal Exalted comes the birth of Void Circle Necromancy. Remember the Salinian Working? Who says that Necromancy can't be used on that scale to isolate the Neverborn's Essence? Then the Abyssals can have the pleasure of PHYSICALLY throwing the Neverborn into Oblivion!

[Fortuna]

That, and the Neverborn came up with this whole "destroy Creation" plan whilst half asleep and angry. Their Essence is tied to the Underworld; it's possible that even if NOTHING ELSE EXISTS, they might still be there.

My idea? With the advent of the Abyssal Exalted comes the birth of Void Circle Necromancy. Remember the Salinian Working? Who says that Necromancy can't be used on that scale to isolate the Neverborn's Essence? Then the Abyssals can have the pleasure of PHYSICALLY throwing the Neverborn into Oblivion!

I'm pretty sure the deathlords know Void Circle...

[meschlum]

Now, just to convince my enemies to enter of their own free will and choice. I know, I shall promise them perfect sausage if they just sit on the little chair I shall place above the opening. Then, when they least suspect it, I shall dump them into the machine and keep all the sausage for myself. Heehehehehehe!

Well... swap in TWO one-dot Oneiromancies instead of one 3-dot one, and you can mix in Emotion Weaving Style, so that any non-Exalt who sees the Machine gains a new Motivation: Sausages!.

It's cheaper, too.

You say that, but you have actually managed to encompass the spirit and power of The Nameless Follower with the little I gave. I think this is a sign that I must ensure he uses grace magic whenever he comes in to being. Surely there is no problem with that.

Absolutely none (tm) *

* Guarantee void where made.

[chaoskristy21]

I'm pretty sure the deathlords know Void Circle...

Well, yes, but they're ghosts, and ghosts aren't exactly known for thinking outside of the box like the Exalted. Plus, they've just Glorified Nephwracks anyways...

[Sanguine]

Well, yes, but they're ghosts, and ghosts aren't exactly known for thinking outside of the box like the Exalted. Plus, they've just Glorified Nephwracks anyways...

Glorified Neohwracks who have been intrinsically bonded with the shattered remnants of Third Circle Devas. They also used to be Exalts which almost definitely puts them in the category of Heroic Ghosts who are, as all Heroic things, the exception to the rule.

[aetherialDawn]

I was under the impression that the Deathlords knew Void Circle Necromancy, but were incapable of casting it.
Again, Abyssals and company are the group I really know least about mechanically.

[TheCountAlucard]

I was under the impression that the Deathlords knew Void Circle Necromancy, but were incapable of casting it.

They get both - it's mentioned in the Core book, White and Black Treatises, and even in MoEP: Abyssals.

[chaoskristy21]

All of this is true. The point I'm trying to make is that the Deathlords, for all of their undeniable power, are stuck in a rut--each has their niche, and they don't like to leave it unless prompted. Thus, even if there WERE a way to destroy the Neverborn without killing all of Creation in the process, the Deathlords are the least likely individuals to find it without some kind of prompting.
Which is where Player--er, I mean Exalted Ingenuity comes in

edit: The point I was trying to make with the Void Circle Necromancy was that the Abyssals are the first Non Deathlords to have access to it. Major restructuring of cosmic principles tends to fall under the dominion of Sorcery, so it seems reasonable to assume the same would be true for Necromancy and the Underworld.

[Story Time]

What an interesting subject. The destruction of Primordials. Most of the answers boil down to who is running the game and not what personalities will answer such a suggestion in this thread. Some campaign makers have already decided that they think Primordials are too vast to destroy, even those bound or wounded. Some others think its only a matter of Player Characters facing them directly for a confrontation before scratching that End Blow itch.

One of the more...interesting solutions that I came across was a player of a Twilight Caste. The Twilight decided, without the help of the Story-teller, that, "All things were Essence," and so that Primordial entities could be broken into pieces. The Twilight then decided that the best place to annihilate the Primordials was the Void, after breaking them into non-sentient pieces. The Story-teller agreed, but ruled that the Void would have to be completely clear of all other entities to prevent the Essence from being recycled.

So the Twilight's problem, and quite right for a Twilight Caste, became where to store all the Essence of the Neverborn at once. Naturally, the Twilight succeeded...eventually. But it was also made into a Game Win scenario.


Completely unrelated to all that, thoughts of Chancels ( thanks, Meschlum ) along with recent events have brought me to think about a Chancel which has Medicine Chest in the title.


Back on topic, I still think Meschlum's Primordial Killing Wombat(tm) was another of the more interesting solutions I've discovered to this subject. Perhaps I should say, "At least it was very creative."

[aetherialDawn]

Back on topic, I still think Meschlum's Primordial Killing Wombat(tm) was another of the more interesting solutions I've discovered to this subject. Perhaps I should say, "At least it was very creative."

Technically, I looked at the Wombat and it's not the best at killing Primordials.
It can change motivations to suicidal ones, but aren't the Neverborn already suicidal, from which their omnicidal plans stem?

The other versions include a pre-errata version, and a version of uncertain possibility (which would, however, strip Essence from anything there is to strip!)

Perhaps such shenanigans are part of why each Primordial had a soul hierarchy? Raksha tries to latch on and shred your essence, you dump them off on some little first circle expendable Deva.

[Story Time]

"Ask your Story-teller," I suppose. I believe that I mentioned something about Story-tellers being different in my last post. The reason that I like the wombat is because it is a creative answer, not necessarily because it might be functional. Still, perhaps the Neverborn are capable of conceiving of annihilation and through that understanding they can then construct in themselves the possibility of being destroyed. This...implicit savvy could be interpreted as:

• Neverborn views Wombat of Annihilation
• Neverborn accepts possibility of annihilation
• Neverborn becomes annihilated.

In more direct language, I like the wombat because it is an answer to the Primordial conundrum that does not elicit the words, "Hit it with a stick."

[TheCountAlucard]

In more direct language, I like the wombat because it is an answer to the Primordial conundrum that does not elicit the words, "Hit it with a stick."

It isn't, really, considering how the Primordials have their Shaping defenses.

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For instance, Ebby's got a Shaping defense that's always on, and will only be beaten if he's out of motes or Willpower. Not only does Adorjan get to avoid Shaping effects, but those who attempt to lay them on her are instantly, perfectly counterattacked and dealt aggravated damage for trying.

Though I imagine meschlum could probably devise an amusing Fair Folk artifact that involves solving unconventional problems by hitting them with a stick fairly easily.

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My predictions? A chancel in the form of a stick, an oneiromancy that lets you give people intimacies by hitting them with a stick, an adjuration whose effects are only granted by swearing to hit someone with a stick, and probably a behemoth-stick-thingie as well.