What alignments are feasible for Enor & Ganji?

[Ron Miel]

...So they pull their contracts out of thin air then?

Rolls eyes.

Nice strawman there.

No, they collect bounties from any government. They don't work for one SPECIFIC government.

It would be nice if you would attempt to defend any of your previous claims,

I already have. Every claim I have made has been supported by reference to specific content in the strip.

instead of just moving on and making new, equally unsupported arguments for why Gannji and Enor are "good."

In the first place, they are not "unsupported" they are backed up with evidence from the strip.

In the second place, I am NOT making arguments that they are good. My stated opinion is that they are "at least neutral." The consensus of opinion is that they are neutral, and I can accept that.

I admit I said (once) that Ganji was good and Enor neutral. That was a mistake. I should have said that Ganji is possibly good.

[sims796]

I actually agree with Ron. They seem to be freelancers, working for whatever government is willing to pay. They don't care about the lives of their mark, nor whether or not they are guilty. They just beat people up for the government. It's also pretty clear that this is their first visit in the EoB, or at the very least, they are there for business only. They saw a wanted poster, saw that is for a good amount, and made their move.

That does not scream good. At all. But there isn't enough evidence to say that they are wholeheartedly evil.

[Ancalagon]

On the other hand: "Punching people for governments because they pay and not minding anything else" also does not scream "Neutral" very loudly. It whispers it, but afterwards it says "evil".

[hamishspence]

Yes- there's a lot of varieties of Evil. Not all are overtly sadistic- some are simply willing to disregard certain moral principles, in order to achieve what they want.

[Ancalagon]

I think D&D needs characters that are evil, but not the over-the-top archvillian type of evil.

Merchants can buy food and sell to someone else well knowing that people will starve now - but if those suckers make the worse price, who cares? That is evil, not neutral. The act is evil and makes no alignment, but do stuff like that often enough and your alignment will reflect that.

Or you could be evil and still be a loving, caring family-father with true friends. Who said you have to be an ass just because you like stabbing people when no one looks or organise some money extortion gang?
Or if you do not see the difference between a valid business and organise some robber-party? All evil, but you do not have to be the insanely laughing slaughterer who wants World Dominiation or poison every well and kick every puppy you come across.

Or you could be some bounty hunter who has a real buddy he likes and you make your living off catching people and selling them to some government. The only distinction to slavery is that you only catch special people of whom you know the government wants them.

"Evil" does not have to mean (and it does not): "Always, always evil and never, ever good in any way."

Most evil people (in D&D, of course) are mostly normal people. The same as most good people are mostly normal people.

[FatJose]

I actually agree with Ron. They seem to be freelancers, working for whatever government is willing to pay. They don't care about the lives of their mark, nor whether or not they are guilty. They just beat people up for the government. It's also pretty clear that this is their first visit in the EoB, or at the very least, they are there for business only. They saw a wanted poster, saw that is for a good amount, and made their move.

That does not scream good. At all. But there isn't enough evidence to say that they are wholeheartedly evil.

Not to mention, it's Nale. His wanted poster doesn't exactly paint him as someone to bother checking for goodness. If you spent your time double checking if every bounty is actually innocent you'd starve...or be deaded by the first bad guy to see you become uncertain for even an instance. They're bounty hunters, not detectives.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's also pretty clear that this is their first visit in the EoB

Why people keep saying this is beyond me. What's clear is that this is their first visit to the palace in Bleedingham. It's also pretty clear that they've never been incarcerated in the Bleedingham Correctional Facility before. However, stepping into a building and working for an empire are two very different things, particularly when the building has been only recently constructed and some parts of it are still not fit for normal human or lizard habitation. Before the palace existed, there would still have been bounties. They would just have been distributed somewhere other than the palace, perhaps the courthouse.

[Ron Miel]

Why people keep saying this is beyond me.

Well, they display their entry papers. That means, at least, that they are not natives, and arrived after the country was founded. At an absolute maximum they have been here for two years.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, they display their entry papers. That means, at least, that they are not natives, and arrived after the country was founded. At an absolute maximum they have been here for two years.

As a US citizen you still need a US passport to re-enter the USA from a trip abroad. A fictional Lawful Evil empire might have much more draconian documentation requirements than the USA (I'm really not saying anything about that RL country's alignment). And we've seen that imperial subjects are meant to carry their documentation with them at all times. Having "entry papers" proves nothing about their nationality.

Furthermore, you have to admit that we know nothing about what Ganjii and Enor have been doing for the past two years. It's just as likely that they've worked for the Empire of Blood before as it is that they have not. The evidence that's been brought up against their ever having worked for the Empire of Blood before is hardly conclusive, and its interpretation suspect.

[Ron Miel]

It's just as likely that they've worked for the Empire of Blood before as it is that they have not. The evidence that's been brought up against their ever having worked for the Empire of Blood before is hardly conclusive, and its interpretation suspect.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

[sims796]

As a US citizen you still need a US passport to re-enter the USA from a trip abroad. A fictional Lawful Evil empire might have much more draconian documentation requirements than the USA (I'm really not saying anything about that RL country's alignment). And we've seen that imperial subjects are meant to carry their documentation with them at all times. Having "entry papers" proves nothing about their nationality.

Furthermore, you have to admit that we know nothing about what Ganjii and Enor have been doing for the past two years. It's just as likely that they've worked for the Empire of Blood before as it is that they have not. The evidence that's been brought up against their ever having worked for the Empire of Blood before is hardly conclusive, and its interpretation suspect.

The evidence is in favor of them either being abroad, or at the very least, not in ties of the EoB. While they were there, they seemed to not know about what was going on in the palace, but at the very least, they knew enough to get their payment. For all we know, they might have lived there, or worked for the EoB in the past, but the evidence is against that theory, with little evidence for it.

At the same time, I'm a tad suprised at everyone basically twisting what Evil, Good, and Neutral is. If you're saying that "most evil people are normal people and most good people are normal people", then that sounds pretty neutral to me. If you want to call them evil, it certainly isn't a stretch (while you'll be outright wrong to call them good), but there isn't enough evidence to say that they are outright evil. At best, this is a job (especially considering the mark that they were originally after was, indeed, evil). FatJose actually said it best.

[zimmerwald1915]

Ever heard of Occam's Razor?

Yes. Neither solution is more simple, thus neither is more likely. Occam's razor doesn't apply.

[sims796]

Yes. Neither solution is more simple, thus neither is more likely. Occam's razor doesn't apply.

Well, we have little evidence that they were working for the EoB in the past, and moer that says that this may have been their first (bounty) job there.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, we have little evidence that they were working for the EoB in the past, and moer that says that this may have been their first (bounty) job there.

We have no non-circumstantial evidence either way.

[hamishspence]

Savage Species, page 102:

Evil characters are still people. Even bad guys have feelings, emotions and loyalties. This means it is just as possible to play a well-rounded character who happens to be evil as one who happens to be neutral or good. An evil character or creature can be a loving parent (such as Grendel's mother) a faithful spouse, a loyal friend, or a devoted servant without diminishing their villainy in any way; this merely reflects they way in which people compartmentalize their lives and the fact that they behave in different ways toward different groups, brutalizing those they consider beneath them but treating their peers and loved ones with respect and affection.

The minimum standard for Good is "makes personal sacrifices to help others" and since Neutral people do this too (though generally, not for those they don't have a connection to- family, friends, "nation") the implication is that Good people are willing to make sacrifices for "strangers" of this kind.

[Ron Miel]

Neither solution is more simple, thus neither is more likely.

Wrong. They don't know where in the palace to collect the bounty. Why? There are at least 3 possibilities:

1) They have never collected a bounty from the EOB before

2) They HAVE collected a bounty from the EOB before, but that was before they built the palace, and the office was in a different place.

3) They HAVE collected a bounty from the palace before, but had their memories of the event erased by the purple pixies.

Solution #1 only requires information in the actual comic. Solution #2 or #3 require assumptions not in evidence.

[Unisus]

I'll go for the "neutral" - because, as someone else said before, this is what bounty-hunters usually are. And looking at the only case we have before us so far, they were hunting down an evil person - Nale. That they wre mislead by Elans similarity to his twin brother can hardly be hold against them.

So, as much as we know that they were, amongst others, working at least once for at least one evil government (we don't know about how many of their contracts have been with good governments), we also know that they were, amongst others, after an evil villain (we don't know about any good persons they hunted down).

I don't see any reason to give them an "evil"-stamp.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wrong. They don't know where in the palace to collect the bounty. Why? There are at least 3 possibilities:

1) They have never collected a bounty from the EOB before

2) They HAVE collected a bounty from the EOB before, but that was before they built the palace, and the office was in a different place.

3) They HAVE collected a bounty from the palace before, but had their memories of the event erased by the purple pixies.

Solution #1 only requires information in the actual comic. Solution #2 or #3 require assumptions not in evidence.

Again, the only thing being unfamiliar with the palace proves is that they have never been in it before. Neither have most subjects of the Empire of Blood. Neither had any other bounty hunters before the palace was built and opened. We know the Empire of Blood has been offering bounties for at least as long as it has had a bounty out on Nale, since there is an office dedicated to their collection with records of other bounties that have been offered, so it is at least likely that there have been some bounties filled in between the posting of Nale's bounty and Enor and Ganjii's having brought Elan in.

Solution 1 requires that Enor and Ganjii never collected a bounty for the Empire of Blood before, while Solution 2 merely leaves the possibility of their having collected a bounty for the Empire of Blood before open. It does not require their having collected a bounty for the Empire of Blood. It makes fewer assumptions, not more.

[sims796]

Wrong. They don't know where in the palace to collect the bounty. Why? There are at least 3 possibilities:

1) They have never collected a bounty from the EOB before

2) They HAVE collected a bounty from the EOB before, but that was before they built the palace, and the office was in a different place.

3) They HAVE collected a bounty from the palace before, but had their memories of the event erased by the purple pixies.

Solution #1 only requires information in the actual comic. Solution #2 or #3 require assumptions not in evidence.

Exactly. Not to mention, they had teleported into town, and the interaction with Tarquin and the others shows evidence that they have never dealt with the EoB beforehand. You can debate that they might have worked for the EoB before the events in the comic, and you may have a point, since the evidence we have so far isn't concrete. However, it wouldn't be a strong argument, seeing as what we see suggest that they have never worked for the EoB.

As to what hamishspence has quoted, it's a nice quote. Someone here on this site has a sig that sums it up well - Neutral looks out for #1. Evil looks out for #1 while crushing #2. What we have seen so far (and only what we have seen) does not seem to suggest outright evil, though you wouldn't be crazy for interpreting them as such.

But yeah, Unisus said it right. They seem to know quite a bit about the Bounty Hunter game, given what Ganji's interaction with Haley was all about.

[Gift Jeraff]

So, as much as we know that they were, amongst others, working at least once for at least one evil government (we don't know about how many of their contracts have been with good governments), we also know that they were, amongst others, after an evil villain (we don't know about any good persons they hunted down).

But the Western nation-states always seem to have names which suggest tyranny or anti-mammalianism. The only exceptions I see are the Coastly Coast (?) and something called Justania which was conquered by Tarquin.

[sims796]

But the Western nation-states always seem to have names which suggest tyranny or anti-mammalianism. The only exceptions I see are the Coastly Coast (?) and something called Justania which was conquered by Tarquin.

We also don't know if all of their business was in the Western Continent, but it's pretty safe to assume so.

[hamishspence]

Someone here on this site has a sig that sums it up well - Neutral looks out for #1. Evil looks out for #1 while crushing #2.

Another froom Cheesegear (which seems to have been deleted recently) was as I recall:

1: Standing by and doing nothing while Evil happens, isn't "selfish but Neutral"- it's Evil.
2: Only doing what interests you isn't Neutral. It's Chaotic, and possibly Evil.
3: Just because you're organized, doesn't mean you're Lawful.
4: Evil people want friends too.

[sims796]

Another froom Cheesegear (which seems to have been deleted recently) was as I recall:

1: Standing by and doing nothing while Evil happens, isn't "selfish but Neutral"- it's Evil.
2: Only doing what interests you isn't Neutral. It's Chaotic, and possibly Evil.
3: Just because you're organized, doesn't mean you're Lawful.
4: Evil people want friends too.

Another good post, but one I must disagree with. If that being the case, than what is neutral? Standing by while evil is happening sounds pretty neutral to me. Doing something about it sounds good. Helping the bad guy seems funn--I mean, evil.

[VanBuren]

Another froom Cheesegear (which seems to have been deleted recently) was as I recall:

1: Standing by and doing nothing while Evil happens, isn't "selfish but Neutral"- it's Evil.
2: Only doing what interests you isn't Neutral. It's Chaotic, and possibly Evil.
3: Just because you're organized, doesn't mean you're Lawful.
4: Evil people want friends too.

I don't agree with #1. There are a lot of reasons for not intervening. None of them are Good (or even good) but I'd say they're Neutral. Reasons like: "somebody else here is better suited to handling this than I am" or "that guy has a knife/gun/wand. If I intervene, I'll just get killed".

Those are Neutral reasons.

[dps]

we don't know about how many of their contracts have been with good governments

Why do people keep talking about contracts in this thread? Bounty hunters don't work under contract (not to the government, not normally, anyway).

[zimmerwald1915]

Why do people keep talking about contracts in this thread? Bounty hunters don't work under contract (not to the government, not normally, anyway).

Depends on the legal system. If the posting of a bounty is considered an offer by the government, the government's consideration the payment advertised, a bounty hunter's consideration the person on whom the bounty has been posted, and a bounty hunter's tender of the person on whom the bounty was posted an acceptance, and both the government and the bounty hunter are clear on the consideration, then yes there's a contract there. If, instead, the posting of a bounty is considered an invitation to make an offer, then it is the bounty hunter's bringing in of the person on whom the bounty was posted that is the actual offer itself. The government and bounty hunter would then have to agree on their respective considerations (person on whom the bounty was posted for X amount of money) and then exchange them for there to be an acceptance of the offer and a contract. There is, of course, the third type of bounty hunting, where the bounty hunter is employed by the government to hunt down a specific person and paid a wage to do so, where the consideration is the bounty hunter's labor time on the bounty hunter's part and the wage on the government's. But this last type, while featured in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't seem to apply to Enor's and Ganjii's relationship with the Empire of Blood.

[hamishspence]

I don't agree with #1. There are a lot of reasons for not intervening. None of them are Good (or even good) but I'd say they're Neutral. Reasons like: "somebody else here is better suited to handling this than I am" or "that guy has a knife/gun/wand. If I intervene, I'll just get killed".

Those are Neutral reasons.

True- But "doing nothing" doesn't just mean not intervening. I think it this context it includes not making even a resolution to report the event to people who can deal with it.

In more long term cases- it may mean- when a large group is "doing evil" those who don't protest, or emigrate, or practice civil disobediance, but simply "carry on as normal" bear some moral responsibility- they are "standing by, while evil happens".

[VanBuren]

True- But "doing nothing" doesn't just mean not intervening. I think it this context it includes not making even a resolution to report the event to people who can deal with it.

In more long term cases- it may mean- when a large group is "doing evil" those who don't protest, or emigrate, or practice civil disobediance, but simply "carry on as normal" bear some moral responsibility- they are "standing by, while evil happens".

Unfortunately, given what we know of crowd psychology, that gives the majority of humans an evil shift to their alignment. And I'm pretty sure it's not supposed to work like that.

[hamishspence]

In Fiendish Codex 2, a Lawful Evil regime is likely to teach values, have initation ceremonies, and so on, that adjust people's alignment toward LE.

Same might apply to any other Evil regime- over time, people accept that regime's ways as a price of survival in the regime, and as a result, gravitate toward the same alignment.

In the example given of a long-duration LE regime, it's reached the point where 90% of mortals living there have their souls go to Baator after death.

[Unisus]

True- But "doing nothing" doesn't just mean not intervening. I think it this context it includes not making even a resolution to report the event to people who can deal with it.

In more long term cases- it may mean- when a large group is "doing evil" those who don't protest, or emigrate, or practice civil disobediance, but simply "carry on as normal" bear some moral responsibility- they are "standing by, while evil happens".

So if doing nothing against evil makes me evil - does that mean that not hindering someone to do good makes me good?

Of course, if i am neutral and i see much evil done and don't do anything about it, this is challenging for my alignment. But if i can - from my point of view - do also as much good, then my neutrality is save.

For our bounty hunters here this means, that even if they work for evil governments, they can keep their neutrality, as long as they presume, that most people they hunt down are also evil (and as we see with Nale, you don't have to be good to get a price on your head by an evil government)