First Person Shoters then and now

[Yora]

I think we all have gone this way...

If Quake was done today

I don't think it's that bad, but it's not entirely untrue either.

[Spiryt]

Ha, that was pretty funny.

With all the changes you always gain some, loose some.

General simplification for the sake of simplification is definitely one thing I don't exactly get.

[Hazzardevil]

I think we all have gone this way...

If Quake was done today

I don't think it's that bad, but it's not entirely untrue either.

Well,
Call of Duty simply seels itself through the title, whoever makes it doesn't need quality anymore to sell it.

Battlefield 3, that is a good game that has the virtue of not having one shoved out after a year to the public as a brand not well known. (I had no idea there was a shooter called Battlefield until a year ago when a friend bought it at a store along with another random shooter.)

Medal of Honor will likely make a loss on the new game due to the "small child mind-warping properties" thus blocking it off from most of the western world. Shame really, Medal of Honor has made a lot of good shooters over time.

[tensai_oni]

What a bad video. Modern FPSes suck but not for reasons this video shows. They are bad because they have a "real is brown" aesthetic with a lot of generic bulky marines hiding behind cover and being glued to your aiming crosshair. And even then, there are exceptions, and there were a lot of bad FPSes back in the day too. Just nobody remembers them.

Instead, we get generic "games in my day were hard, now it's all easy mode" grognard whining. The games didn't get easier, you simply got better. And the video at the end that shows how you "played" Quake 1? Nobody played it like that. It wasn't even a speedrun. It was just showing off.

[Yora]

When it comes to RPGs, I am actually a huge fan of the many simplefications we have seen in recent years. I'm no longer having fun spending 20 minutes in the 6 inventories of my characters to switch items around that I get the most cash when I get to the next store while still keeping any character from getting overloaded. Neither do I like checking 25 houses for the one irrelevant character to say "here is the amulet that some random stranger on the road gave me for you two weeks ago".

I had fun with that 12 years ago, but now I just can not get myself to play such games again. Even though they are really great.

About shoters I am unsure, I havn't played online matches for years, and the last thing I played a lot was Quake Live. Singleplayer I only played Half-Life and Jedi Knight, which really were not that much different to how shoters are today. Only more primitive.

[Fargazer]

Battlefield 3, that is a good game that has the virtue of not having one shoved out after a year to the public as a brand not well known. (I had no idea there was a shooter called Battlefield until a year ago when a friend bought it at a store along with another random shooter.)

Honestly this statement surprises me. Obviously we've had pretty different experiences, but in the many places I've been, I've never met anyone who was familiar with first-person-shooters who wasn't at least aware of the Battlefield series. Games that don't recieve at least a fair amount of popularity don't generate sequels, and Battlefield had been a pretty respected brand for a long time.

You may have noticed that its Battlefield 3, a sequel to a sequel. Between Battlefield 1942, Battlefield Vietnam, Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142, Battlefield 1943, Battlefield Bad Company 1 + 2, and a bunch of expansion packs for various games in the series, I really don't understand how they justify calling it Battlefield 3. Note that all of these have come out since 2002, not quite a yearly basis, but still a signifigant number of games. Its certainly not obscure.

On topic: It looks like the person who made this video equates the FPS genre with running around and rocket jumping to insane stunts. I've never seen them at the same thing at all. At its basest parts, the FPS genre is about running around and shooting things from a first person perspective. I've never really seen how that somehow HAS to also involve doing crazy jumps by shooting yourself with rockets and crazy reflexes, assuming you went through the trouble of mapping out the level first.

Its a different taste really. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see a game entirely based around doing those sorts of wierd rocket-jumping wackiness becoming mainstream. FPS developers took their games in a direction they thought would be more fun for everyone, and in the end they took the route of actually make their games FPS's. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone can exaggerate the faults of something and say, "Look, this sucks now." It would be just as easy to create a video of someone trying to rocket jump all over the place, but falling in lava over and over again and having to start over.

[tensai_oni]

Its a different taste really. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't see a game entirely based around doing those sorts of wierd rocket-jumping wackiness becoming mainstream. FPS developers took their games in a direction they thought would be more fun for everyone, and in the end they took the route of actually make their games FPS's. Nothing wrong with that. Anyone can exaggerate the faults of something and say, "Look, this sucks now." It would be just as easy to create a video of someone trying to rocket jump all over the place, but falling in lava over and over again and having to start over.

I do not disagree with your opinion, I just want to say that rocket jumps still exist as a gameplay element. Team Fortress 2 has them for three classes, two of which don't even use rocket launchers. And what you can achieve with them looks very spectacular both from first person perspective and for observers.

This video first makes an exaggerated construct of what its author thinks today's FPSes are like, and then argues against this construct rather than against actual FPSes. This is the very definition of strawman.

[psilontech]

[Occasional Sage]

Totally unfair to modern FPSs! You're making the path much twistier than it really is....

[Grif]

Totally unfair to modern FPSs! You're making the path much twistier than it really is....

It's quite true you know.

(Except for Borderlands, but that's because it had a distinct lack of cutscenes.)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Totally unfair to modern FPSs! You're making the path much twistier than it really is....

Unfair to modern FPSs indeed. It takes a lot of work to build a level, and, these days, a game also has to look good. A lot of those really complex level games had fairly crappy graphics by today's standards, and expanding the graphics to make a much larger and still graphically excellent level takes time and money. The more time and money put into the game, the less profitable the end product. So the game companies (even those that would like to make more complicated games) are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place: better gameplay with worse and/or repetitive graphics, or simpler maps and game progression with more "shiny bits."

[warty goblin]

Unfair to modern FPSs indeed. It takes a lot of work to build a level, and, these days, a game also has to look good. A lot of those really complex level games had fairly crappy graphics by today's standards, and expanding the graphics to make a much larger and still graphically excellent level takes time and money. The more time and money put into the game, the less profitable the end product. So the game companies (even those that would like to make more complicated games) are sort of caught between a rock and a hard place: better gameplay with worse and/or repetitive graphics, or simpler maps and game progression with more "shiny bits."

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a non-negligable number of quite open shooters with major graphical chops released in the last half-decade. All three STALKERs, Far Cry 2, Crysis+Warhead and to a slightly lesser extent Crysis 2 all have lots of wide open explorable spaces, enormous levels and are graphically between good and outstanding. If you expand your horizons to include third person open world action games the number of graphically impressive open-environment games increases drastically as well.

And weirdly enough, many of us do not find wandering around a convoluted maze looking for the red key to be anything like fun. I play FPS games to shoot things in the face, not to try to remember if the exit is three lefts then a right, or three rights then a left. That said trying to figure where one is supposed to go without being murdered by the lethal invisible walls that seem to show up disturbingly often anymore isn't much better. I've got nothing against corridors and the shooting of things within them, but I'd rather they were reasonably wide and had sensible boundaries to them.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I'm not sure I agree with this. There are a non-negligable number of quite open shooters with major graphical chops released in the last half-decade. All three STALKERs, Far Cry 2, Crysis+Warhead and to a slightly lesser extent Crysis 2 all have lots of wide open explorable spaces, enormous levels and are graphically between good and outstanding. If you expand your horizons to include third person open world action games the number of graphically impressive open-environment games increases drastically as well.

And I promise you the design times and expenses that went into doing that were much higher than if they had done it differently, and/or use a lot of repeated geometry. 3D modelling takes a boatload of time, and isn't cheap.

[Psyren]

So Doom, Duke 3D et al. were better because you had to go keycard hunting on every level? Screw that.

@ "Brown FPS": Crysis, that is all.

[MCerberus]

Are you sure that's not RPG dungeon design?
Looking at you, Warcraft.
loot tubes.

[Trixie]

Are you sure that's not RPG dungeon design?

Actually, you reminded me of a certain game map...

Spoiler

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FF XIII map design in full glory:

[Mando Knight]

@ "Brown FPS": Crysis, that is all.

Halo, as well. There are a few brown levels, but in order to get the "Real Is Brown" effect, you need to go into the Forge (the map editor, for the uninitiated) and turn on the (probably named with tongue in cheek) "Realistic" effect. Covenant ships would have you believe that real is purple and blue.

[MCerberus]

Personal opinion: Heroes of Stalingrad is the only game to pull off 'real is brown' well in my book.

[GolemsVoice]

Dull colours are by no means a recent invention in shooters. Let's have a look at three classic shooters!

Spoiler

Show

They're really rocking that.... grey, and that... brown there.


Avert your eyes, for there's a rainbow of... greenish brown and grey!


Damn that fancy brown and grey.

[Starwulf]

So Doom, Duke 3D et al. were better because you had to go keycard hunting on every level? Screw that.

@ "Brown FPS": Crysis, that is all.

I'd argue that Doom, Duke Nukem, and others of that ilk, aren't true FPS in any sense of the word. More like shoot-em-ups with a decent emphasis on Puzzle.

[Spartacus]

I'd argue that Doom, Duke Nukem, and others of that ilk, aren't true FPS in any sense of the word. More like shoot-em-ups with a decent emphasis on Puzzle.

I don't think you can possibly say that they are not FPS games. They certainly aren't the same as modern FPS games, but they are first person, and the primary interaction with the game is shooting things. That kinda makes them first person shooters.

[GolemsVoice]

If they aren't, then what is? If we discount those, what's left in this period? Half Life, and maybe the original Battlefield 1942, which isn't exactly a rainbow either. But maybe I'm missing some.

[Grif]

I'd argue that Doom, Duke Nukem, and others of that ilk, aren't true FPS in any sense of the word. More like shoot-em-ups with a decent emphasis on Puzzle.

How could games that had a strong emphasis on YOU killing baddies in large amounts not be classified as shooters? I mean, yes, keycard hunting were a large part of the game, but I found the maps more or less railroaded you towards where you need to go anyway. (With several notable exception, particularly in DooM. *shudder* The Chasm.)

[Starwulf]

I'd classify Doom and Duke Nuke'em as more akin to morrowind, or Thief, or Gothic. First person games, but in the case of Doom and Duke, they just happen to have guns as the default weapon, but they also have enough other elements to stop them from really being true FPS, which completely revolve around "Kill this person, or this group of people". As has been pointed out before, in FPS, you don't go around hunting keycards, or even exits really(sometimes, like if you need to be helicoptered out of an area or something), you have to hunt down the enemy, and kill them. The Enemies in Doom and Duke more struck me as merely being obstacles to stop you from getting to the end of the level, much like Goombas and Turtles in Mario attempted to stop you from reaching the flag at the end of the level.

[Trazoi]

I'd argue that Doom, Duke Nukem, and others of that ilk, aren't true FPS in any sense of the word. More like shoot-em-ups with a decent emphasis on Puzzle.

Now I'm curious as to what you consider the list of true FPSes are, if a game like Doom is too puzzley to qualify.

[Starwulf]

Now I'm curious as to what you consider the list of true FPSes are, if a game like Doom is too puzzley to qualify.

Read my above post, but if I made it to obtuse to figure out(which I often do, something I'm prone to), here it is: A FPS is a game where the sole objective is to eliminate every enemy on the map, or to eliminate a certain target, or accomplish a specific objective(like rescue the hostages, or plant the bomb), and that is all it is, just in different forms throughout the game. Duke Nukem and Doom, you didn't have to kill any particular enemy on the map, unless you actually encountered them(at least until boss battles that is). The enemies were there as obstacles to get past, not necessarily kill. The real objective was to get to the end of the level, and exit the level via the elevator or door, or teleportation portal, or what have you.

[Avilan the Grey]

I'd argue that Doom, Duke Nukem, and others of that ilk, aren't true FPS in any sense of the word. More like shoot-em-ups with a decent emphasis on Puzzle.

Sorry, but to say that DOOM isn't a FPS is like saying that Baldur's Gate isn't and RPG...

[Grif]

Read my above post, but if I made it to obtuse to figure out(which I often do, something I'm prone to), here it is: A FPS is a game where the sole objective is to eliminate every enemy on the map, or to eliminate a certain target, or accomplish a specific objective(like rescue the hostages, or plant the bomb), and that is all it is, just in different forms throughout the game. Duke Nukem and Doom, you didn't have to kill any particular enemy on the map, unless you actually encountered them(at least until boss battles that is). The enemies were there as obstacles to get past, not necessarily kill. The real objective was to get to the end of the level, and exit the level via the elevator or door, or teleportation portal, or what have you.

You do realise most FPS also do this right?

Unless you're saying Half-Life is now not an FPS, because technically, you don't need to kill enemies to get to the other end of the level, because you totally can.

[Trazoi]

I meant I'm curious as to what games are out there that are so pure about shooting stuff that they qualify under the definition of being solely about shooting things, because I think it would be fairly small. Although you've expanded your definition with your reply.

A FPS is a game where the sole objective is to eliminate every enemy on the map, or to eliminate a certain target, or accomplish a specific objective(like rescue the hostages, or plant the bomb), and that is all it is, just in different forms throughout the game.

It looks like you're trying to limit the definition to multiplayer team FPSes like Counterstrike and Team Fortress, however by that definition the Doom-like games qualify. They're all about achieving a specific objective - get to the end of the level, press the button.

The usual accepted definition of FPSes is a game in first person perspective that involves a large amount of shooter based gameplay. There can be some debate about whether games like Deus Ex apply, but rarely about Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. Mostly because they were the games that defined the genre, to the point where back in the day everything in first person used to be called Doom clones, even if it was nothing of the sort like Magic Carpet.

[Starwulf]

I meant I'm curious as to what games are out there that are so pure about shooting stuff that they qualify under the definition of being solely about shooting things, because I think it would be fairly small. Although you've expanded your definition with your reply.


It looks like you're trying to limit the definition to multiplayer team FPSes like Counterstrike and Team Fortress, however by that definition the Doom-like games qualify. They're all about achieving a specific objective - get to the end of the level, press the button.

The usual accepted definition of FPSes is a game in first person perspective that involves a large amount of shooter based gameplay. There can be some debate about whether games like Deus Ex apply, but rarely about Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. Mostly because they were the games that defined the genre, to the point where back in the day everything in first person used to be called Doom clones, even if it was nothing of the sort like Magic Carpet.

To be honest, it's probably just me. I just don't see them as shooters, due to the aforementioned reasons, and the fact that they just feel so confined. An FPS to me is CoD, or Battlefield, or something of that sort. IE: Games I can't stand, whatsoever. On the other hand, I played the hell out of Doom, and Wolfenstein, and Duke Nukem, and even some of the original Quake. I even enjoyed Goldeneye 64, which is precisely the last shooter game that came out that I enjoyed. Might be because my tastes changed, or just because the genre changed to what it is now, but whatever the reason, I don't consider those older games true FPS.