The Sorcerer (A NeoSeraphi Fix) 3.5, PEACH Finished!

[Kenneth]

It says in the Draconic Spellcasting section, very clearly:

A sorcerer may not learn a spell that lets him channel positive or negative energy.

This includes the cure and inflict line of spells, as well as heal and harm.

Sorry to disappoint you.

disappoint you did.. now i go cry in a corner *cries in a corner*

[Yitzi]

Find a healing spell that isn't over time and does not channel positive energy.

I don't know of any, and if they are any of levels he gets at-will, they'd break the sorcerer as well.

If you're asking why I didn't just cut out conjuration [healing] spells altogether, that would remove access to the restoration line, remove blindness/deafness, remove paralysis, etc.

Clearly. I was asking why you didn't just say "He is also unable to learn any other conjuration [healing] spell that would cause the target to recover hit points", and leave out the phrase "over a small amount of time." Not only is that less wordy and less confusing, but it makes it harder to find some obscure spell that can break the class.

[NeoSeraphi]

Clearly. I was asking why you didn't just say "He is also unable to learn any other conjuration [healing] spell that would cause the target to recover hit points", and leave out the phrase "over a small amount of time." Not only is that less wordy and less confusing, but it makes it harder to find some obscure spell that can break the class.

True. Better to be safe than sorry. I'll do that then.

[YouLostMe]

So Seraphi, I still have two requests/questions:

1) What Tier is this class intended for? I assume Tier 2?

2) Would there be any way I could bother you into changing the whole "DARGONS" theme to a generic "MARGICK BLOOD" theme?

[NeoSeraphi]

So Seraphi, I still have two requests/questions:

1) What Tier is this class intended for? I assume Tier 2?

Yeah. Kinda hard to push a character without 700 spells known up to Tier 1.

2) Would there be any way I could bother you into changing the whole "DARGONS" theme to a generic "MARGICK BLOOD" theme?

In all of my campaign worlds that I've ever played in, dragons have been the origin of arcane magic. (This mostly stems from both all the sorcerer dragon stuff in Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon, and more importantly, that scrolls are written in Draconic [As described by the wizard bonus language class feature])

In all honesty, I thought that the sorcerers drawing their power was official 3.5 RAW. Am I mistaken in that?

[Yitzi]

In all of my campaign worlds that I've ever played in, dragons have been the origin of arcane magic. (This mostly stems from both all the sorcerer dragon stuff in Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon, and more importantly, that scrolls are written in Draconic [As described by the wizard bonus language class feature])

Actually, in the one I'm planning, sorcery predates dragons (the first sorcerers were the result of being changed by a natural nexus of magical power), although "nowadays" draconic bloodline is a major source of sorcerous power. Wizardry (at least among humanoids) actually is a tiny bit after dragons; it was learned in the same war that the dragons were created to fight in.

In all honesty, I thought that the sorcerers drawing their power was official 3.5 RAW. Am I mistaken in that?

I believe so; the way I understand it, sorcerers have a natural talent for manipulating magic, but the actual manipulation works the same way it does for wizards.

Of course, in a homebrew version of a class, you are by definition not following RAW for that class, so if you want to change it there's nothing wrong with that.

[NeoSeraphi]

Huh. Alright then. Guess I'll change it to Magic-Blooded type when I get home from work.

[NeoSeraphi]

Update! Removed the 5' step penalty from Chain Spell, Whirlwind Spell, and Rapid Fire, and changed Rapid Fire's immediate action clause to simply "The sorcerer is dazed until the beginning of his next turn"

[absolmorph]

In all honesty, I thought that the sorcerers drawing their power was official 3.5 RAW. Am I mistaken in that?

The source of sorcerers' power is entirely flavor, which is distinct from rules. There's lots of feats which assume this is the case (since it's the official default flavor), but it's incredibly easy to change.
So, you're sort of right (it's the official default flavor), but not quite (it's flavor, not rules).

[NeoSeraphi]

The source of sorcerers' power is entirely flavor, which is distinct from rules. There's lots of feats which assume this is the case (since it's the official default flavor), but it's incredibly easy to change.
So, you're sort of right (it's the official default flavor), but not quite (it's flavor, not rules).

Well, I still really like the dragon flavor. I know that's kind of off-putting for a base class, but, well, dragons are freaking awesome.

[motionmatrix]

Summon Familiar (Su): This class feature is identical to the PHB sorcerer feature.

Really? I totally see a familiar in the hands of a wizard (well more like his feet or shoulders, or maybe an extra dimensional pocket) but I never quite felt it belonged in the hands of a sorcerer, at least not every sorcerer.

See below for the follow up.

Draconic Spellcasting (Ex):

Spoiler

Show

Like a cleric draws power from his god, a sorcerer is able to draw power from the arcane power of the dragons. However, the dragons themselves are also gods, and while they watch over their loyal clerics closely, they also are rather fond of their sorcererous descendants.

At 4th level, and every 4 levels afterwards, a sorcerer may learn a single spell on the cleric spell list. This spell is in addition to his spells known, and may not be of a higher level spell than he is able to cast. A sorcerer may choose from the cleric list or from the list of Domain spells that are granted by Bahamut (if the sorcerer is good) or Tiamat (if the sorcerer is evil). A sorcerer who is neutral may choose one dragon to draw power from at level 4, afterwards, this choice may not be changed. A sorcerer may not cast divine spells if he does not match their alignment subtype (A chaotic neutral sorcerer may not cast [Good], [Evil], or [Law] spells, from the cleric spell list)

A sorcerer is unable to learn conjuration (healing) spells that allow the creature to recover hit points with this ability, as well as any spells that channel positive or negative energy. Additionally, a sorcerer may never learn the miracle spell through this class feature.

The spells the sorcerer gains are treated as arcane spells. If the spell has a divine focus, the sorcerer must use a dragon scale as his divine focus. A dragon scale can be bought for 1,000 gp or can be stolen off the hide of a slain dragon.

I feel like this should be a choice. Call it whatever you want, lineage, bloodline, familial ties, heritage, etc.

It can be as easy as draconic, celestial, infernal, arcane or it can instead be almost like domains. grant some specific spells known, plus an ability. arcane should probably have the familiar.

If you do something like this, the familiar becomes a measuring stick for whatever abilities you give the rest of them.

Chain Spell (Ex): A sorcerer's strength comes in his ability to let loose and fire a large amount of power at once. Starting at 3rd level, as a full-round action, a sorcerer may cast two spells with a casting time of one standard action. These spells must both only affect one target, and they must be aimed at the same target. Chaining spells is incredibly difficult, and can only be done if the target is within 30 ft. A sorcerer who chains spells is unable to use his swift action for the round.

Specify here, as well as on whirlwind spell, that touch spells do not increase in range up to 30 ft.

Arcane Resistance (Su): Starting at 7th level, a sorcerer may, as an immediate action, consume a spell slot and grant himself an arcane bonus on all saving throws equal to the level of the spell slot he consumed until the beginning of his turn

I like the idea of the above power, and similar ones below.

However, he still has a d4 hit die, and other than the damage reduction further down, without armor either to protect him early on, he is in for some rough 1-5 levels. Also if he is going to be in the thick of it regularly, drop the will down to max out at level 20 to +9 (the medium track) and increase his fortitude to max at +9 as well, so he is a bit beefier. He still has this arcane resistance to make up for the rest.

I know he is not front line, so he does not have to be in full plate or d10s HD. But perhaps something to increase his ac, at least at the early levels, will go a long way to survive and get nasty. And maybe d6s?

Arcane Breath (Su): Starting at 13th level, a sorcerer may build up his arcane power and expel it forth in a blast of power.

At 19th level, the sorcerer gains the ability to breath a cloud of gas that functions as the solid fog spell, a cloud that grants all creatures affected invisibility, and an energy breath weapon that deals force damage.

A sorcerer is immune to the effects of his own Arcane Breath ability.

he can't stick his hands into the cone blast and become invisible as well?

If the sorcerer is countering a spell of a level that he is able to cast at-will, he uses one of his special daily spell slots for powering abilities and feats

How about adding a spell pool, 1 point equals 1 spell level. You start it when you get the first at-will, just so you don't have to say, I have three 3rd level spells left, but I can cast them at-will. I can see a dm that is not familiar with this fix getting all flustered.


I like this quite a bit, I feel its a bit anticlimactic at level 20, without a real capstone ability. Maybe you can link the capstone ability back to the "lineage, bloodline, familial ties, heritage" choices.

[NeoSeraphi]

Really? I totally see a familiar in the hands of a wizard (well more like his feet or shoulders, or maybe an extra dimensional pocket) but I never quite felt it belonged in the hands of a sorcerer, at least not every sorcerer.

It's primarily for flavor, as well as for the ability to trade it for any of the ACFs that PHB sorcerers get.

Delivering touch spells is nice though.

I feel like this should be a choice. Call it whatever you want, lineage, bloodline, familial ties, heritage, etc.

And I don't. For one thing, the reason I gave them this ability in the first place was because that gives them a very limited domain selection, which I reviewed before giving them the ability.

If I did what you and YouLostMe proposed, I'd have to go through every domain offered by Asmodeus and the other lords of the Nine, as well as every domain offered by the angels and the demons, just to make sure I wasn't giving the sorcerer access to any overpowered domain-specific spells or etc.

The task you are asking me to accomplish would involve additional research, downloading additional sourcebooks, and probably at least an hour or two of my personal time.

I homebrew for fun. That does not sound like fun to me.

Specify here, as well as on whirlwind spell, that touch spells do not increase in range up to 30 ft.

...Alright. I didn't think I needed to do that, but if you say so...

I like the idea of the above power, and similar ones below.

However, he still has a d4 hit die, and other than the damage reduction further down, without armor either to protect him early on, he is in for some rough 1-5 levels. Also if he is going to be in the thick of it regularly, drop the will down to max out at level 20 to +9 (the medium track) and increase his fortitude to max at +9 as well, so he is a bit beefier. He still has this arcane resistance to make up for the rest.

I know he is not front line, so he does not have to be in full plate or d10s HD. But perhaps something to increase his ac, at least at the early levels, will go a long way to survive and get nasty. And maybe d6s?

Why? At high levels, spellcasters are all-powerful and unkillable. They should suffer at low levels to make up for it. As for ways of increasing AC, they have mage armor and shield, just like everyone else.

I don't use medium save progression. I use only WotC released chassises for all my classes, no exceptions.

he can't stick his hands into the cone blast and become invisible as well?

Indeed, he can't. Dragons are immune to their own breath weapons, as are dragonfire adepts and dragon shamans. I think other creatures (like chimeras) that get breath weapons are immune to them as well.

How about adding a spell pool, 1 point equals 1 spell level. You start it when you get the first at-will, just so you don't have to say, I have three 3rd level spells left, but I can cast them at-will. I can see a dm that is not familiar with this fix getting all flustered.

What are you talking about? Did you read the spellcasting feature? Once you get at-will spells, you get a number of effective spell slots equal to the spell level + your Charisma modifier, for use in powering feats and class features that require sacrificing a spell slot.

I like this quite a bit, I feel its a bit anticlimactic at level 20, without a real capstone ability. Maybe you can link the capstone ability back to the "lineage, bloodline, familial ties, heritage" choices.

Full casters don't need capstones.

[motionmatrix]

If I did what you and YouLostMe proposed, I'd have to go through every domain offered by Asmodeus and the other lords of the Nine, as well as every domain offered by the angels and the demons, just to make sure I wasn't giving the sorcerer access to any overpowered domain-specific spells or etc.

The task you are asking me to accomplish would involve additional research, downloading additional sourcebooks, and probably at least an hour or two of my personal time.

I homebrew for fun. That does not sound like fun to me.

I never said give domains, that would make no sense. I said domain-like:

write out 4 or 5 iconic sorcerer flavors, such as fey, arcane, draconic, etc. That's it. Don't call it domain, because they are not.

You can include a clause that, since this replaces the familiar feature (which they can still have with the right choice) they can give up whatever power you grant for ACFs that PHB sorcerers get.

But they still get the specific spells, which you are already giving, just attaching it to this ability. You get to hand pick the spells, balance is no issue.

...Alright. I didn't think I needed to do that, but if you say so...

Just for RaW.

Why? At high levels, spellcasters are all-powerful and unkillable. They should suffer at low levels to make up for it. As for ways of increasing AC, they have mage armor and shield, just like everyone else.

I don't use medium save progression. I use only WotC released chassises for all my classes, no exceptions.

Fine, but it still fits the class better. And WotC was the first to release medium save progression. At least the first time I saw it.

Indeed, he can't. Dragons are immune to their own breath weapons, as are dragonfire adepts and dragon shamans. I think other creatures (like chimeras) that get breath weapons are immune to them as well.

Okie.
Is there a precedent for the invisibility breath weapon? Just curious.

What are you talking about? Did you read the spellcasting feature? Once you get at-will spells, you get a number of effective spell slots equal to the spell level + your Charisma modifier, for use in powering feats and class features that require sacrificing a spell slot.

Yes I get that. I gave it a cosmetic change and just said call it a spell pool for easier tracking. But I guess its just different.

Full casters don't need capstones.

Doesn't mean they can't either. i.e. druid.

[NeoSeraphi]

I never said give domains, that would make no sense. I said domain-like:

write out 4 or 5 iconic sorcerer flavors, such as fey, arcane, draconic, etc. That's it. Don't call it domain, because they are not.

You can include a clause that, since this replaces the familiar feature (which they can still have with the right choice) they can give up whatever power you grant for ACFs that PHB sorcerers get.

But they still get the specific spells, which you are already giving, just attaching it to this ability. You get to hand pick the spells, balance is no issue.

Flavors? You mean like the bloodline feats from Dragon Compendium? That doesn't accomplish the original goal of the ability, which was to give the sorcerer access to the cleric spell list.

Fine, but it still fits the class better. And WotC was the first to release medium save progression. At least the first time I saw it.

I've never seen it in WotC print. And I'm pretty sure I've read every base class WotC released for 3.5

Okie.
Is there a precedent for the invisibility breath weapon? Just curious.

No, that was something I made up.

[motionmatrix]

The Wheel of Fortune d20 books, made by WotC has medium save progression. It is an excellent d20 book in fact, even if some of the stuff in it are too powerful, being campaign specific.

Still, it was written and printed by WotC, and if it fits your power level, it blends almost seamlessly into D&D.

[motionmatrix]

The bloodline feats are fine, but that is not what I meant. Also note I forgot to mention a drawback to offset the changes I suggested, which I will mention at the end of this post.

I will give you a couple of examples of what I actually meant:

At first level, you must select a heritage. This heritage is the basic source of your power; it is a part of you, passed down your family line, potentially dormant.

Heritage: Arcane
At some point in your family history a great arcanist or group of arcanists rose in the world. Some of their magical powers have been passed down to you.
Heritage powers: At first level you gain a familiar, as the wizard class feature. You also gain a +2 bonus to Knowledge: Arcana and Spellcraft checks.
Heritage spells: At 4th level, and every other 4 levels thereafter, an Arcane sorcerer receives an extra spell known drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He must have the capacity to cast the level of the spell he selects.

Heritage: Divine
Your family was very close to a truly divine entity, perhaps your great great great grandmother was a demigod.
Heritage powers: At first level you attract a Divine nimbus, a semi sentient orb of positive energy that floats around you. This orb only partially exists in the prime material, the rest in the positive energy plane and no one other than you can truly interact with it. It has a symbiotic relationship with you. Every morning, it draws 1 hp per two sorcerer levels from you (minimum 1), anchoring it to you and the prime material plane. As long as it remains with you, you receive fast healing equal to 1 for every 4 sorcerer levels you have, minimum 1. He can be separated from you by bringing up walls between planes (for example, dimensional lock).
Heritage Spells: at 4th level, and every other 4 levels thereafter, a Divine Sorcerer receives an extra spell known drawn from the cleric spell list (but not any domains). He must have the capacity to cast the level of the spell he selects.


As to the drawback, on my first read through, I got the sense that he should not be able to make magic items that are permanent. Potions, scrolls, sure, wands, maybe, but not staffs and or arms and armor. Maybe no magic items at all, although he can still use them.

I am aware that sorcerer is not the biggest magic item creation class, and the at-will spells will make it even less so, but that doesn't mean that restricting it would not help with balance.

[NeoSeraphi]

At the request of a PEACHer, added Magical Smile and Magical Reservoir, so now the sorcerer has no dead levels and has something flavorful and useful to look forward to each time you level up.

[MReav]

I would probably make the at-will power a Charisma check with which failure means you spend a spell slot or simply not cast. Possibly increasing the check every time it is used.

[NeoSeraphi]

I would probably make the at-will power a Charisma check with which failure means you spend a spell slot or simply not cast. Possibly increasing the check every time it is used.

I don't think that "spend a spell slot" would work, since you don't actually have spell slots after you get at-will casting. As for the simply not casting part, that completely defeats the purpose of the at-will casting. The sorcerer already has terrible versatility, but he can spam without worrying about anything.

The main reason I like playing a sorcerer is it's so much less bookwork than a wizard. At-will casting lessens that even more, now you can use your low-level spells at-will, no need to check how many spells per day you get or anything.

[Lord_Gareth]

I...

Wait for it!

No, wait for it!

Like this in general. I mean, it's not like Sorcerers need any of this, but it's pretty cool stuff and helps to mechanically differentiate them further from Wizards. That being said, locking your fix into the Draconic flavor is highly disappointing to me. While the draconic heritage theme is the one WotC explored most in Sorcerers, it's not the be-all, end-all of Sorcery; fey-blood, celestial or fiendish blood, descent from powerful spellcasters, or even otherworldly taint a la Alienist or overexposure to Unhallow effects might spawn sorcerous blood. Why lock players that want to use your fix into that flavor?

[NeoSeraphi]

I...

Wait for it!

No, wait for it!

Like this in general. I mean, it's not like Sorcerers need any of this, but it's pretty cool stuff and helps to mechanically differentiate them further from Wizards. That being said, locking your fix into the Draconic flavor is highly disappointing to me. While the draconic heritage theme is the one WotC explored most in Sorcerers, it's not the be-all, end-all of Sorcery; fey-blood, celestial or fiendish blood, descent from powerful spellcasters, or even otherworldly taint a la Alienist or overexposure to Unhallow effects might spawn sorcerous blood. Why lock players that want to use your fix into that flavor?

Eh. I was going to fix it back when people brought it up, but I never really got around to it. Guess I'll give it a shot now.

Edit: Okay, changed the ability to Ancestral Spellcasting.

[Lemmy]

I like this version of the Sorcerer, its class features are pretty cool and useful. I'd love to play it. (sure,I do have a tendency of enjoying Sorcerers who are not just a downgraded wizard, but that's beside the point.)

However, I'd tone it down a little ina few aspects and upgrade a few others...

I guess this is a quite different from your current version, but, please, consider it:

Metamagic Without Longer Casting: Well, i suppose it kinda makes sense that since he didn't prepare the spell, modifying it could take a bigger effort. But for a full caster, who lives and breathes magic, that shouldn't be a problem at all! It's like saying the fighter should take longer to attack if he uses Power Attack or any such feat. Also, the druid and cleric can spontaneously change their spells without increasing casting time, so why can't a sorcerer do the same? Again, he is arcane power personified. He should be great at casting whatever spells he knows!

Less at Will Spell Levels: How about make cantrips at-will from the beginning, a la Pathfinder, but limit at-will casting to 3rd-level spells (maybe 4th-level). Mostly because with Quickened Spells (or Chain Spell), every spell the sorcerer casts would basically be a double spells. Why not just cast a lvl-9 spell and also one of those unlimited quickened lvl 2 spell. Sure, the level 2 spell is not such a big deal at 18th level, but it's free! Also: No Unlimited Limited Wish.

More Spells Known: What makes the sorcerer a noob-trap, rather than noob-friendly is the very limited spell selection he has. A bad choice is quite a problem. Also, when playing a caster, it's funnier to have different spells than cast fire ball a thousand times in a row. Maybe 2 or 3 spells of your highest level instead of just the one? This allows the sorcerer to choose 2 good spells and a "fun" spell, chosen for fluff.

Normal Spell Casting Progression: Yeah, I think this is a no-brainer... Why in Yan Sid's name does the sorcerer get a spell level later than a prepared caster? He is exploding with innate magic power! One could argue that it would make more sense if he got those spell levels earlier than the wizard. Balance-wise, getting them at the same level works fine. Also, you suddenly don't resent that annoying wizard player so much -.-"

I think this would be closer to the original sorcerer while still making it a viable alternative to the wizard.

EDIT: A few typos and removed an suggestion that only later i noticed was already in the class... -.-'

[NeoSeraphi]

Metamagic Without Longer Casting: Well, i suppose it kinda makes sense that since he didn't prepare the spell, modifying it could take a bigger effort. But for a full caster, who lives and breathes magic, that shouldn't be a problem at all! It's like saying the fighter should take longer to attack if he uses Power Attack or any such feat. Also, the druid and cleric can spontaneously change their spells without increasing casting time, so why can't a sorcerer do the same? Again, he is arcane power personified. He should be great at casting whatever spells he knows!

As you pointed out below, the Quicken Spell feat combined with the at-will spells is pretty unfair. Leaving the spontaneous metamagic restrictions prevents those shenanigans.

Less at Will Spell Levels: I'd probably limit at 3rd level spells or 4th level spells. Mostly because with Quickened Spells, every spell the sorcerer casts would basically be a double spells. Why not just cast a lvl-9 spell and also one of those unlimited quickened lvl 2 spell. Sure, the level 2 spell is not such a big deal at 18th level, but it's free! Also: No Unlimited Limited Wish...

There is no unlimited limited wish. Limited wish is a 7th level spell. Also, you can't Quicken spontaneous spells, so there's no double spells here.

More Spells Known: What makes the sorcerer a noob-trap, rather than noob-friendly is the very limited spell selection he has. A bad choice is quite a problem. Also, when playing a caster, it's funnier to have different spells than cast fire ball a thousand times in a row. Maybe 2 or 3 spells of your highest level instead of just the one? This allows the sorcerer to choose 2 good spells and a "fun" spell, chosen for fluff.

Well, I thought that was what I was doing with the Ancestral Spellcasting ability, but okay, I'll expand it to two extra spells known per spell level.

Normal Spell Casting Progression: Yeah, I think this is a no-brainer... Why in Yan Sid's name does the sorcerer get a spell level later than a prepared caster? He is exploding with innate magic power! One could argue that it would make more sense if he got those spell levels earlier than the wizard. Balance-wise, getting them at the same level works fine. Also, you suddenly don't resent that annoying wizard player so much -.-"

I think this would be closer to the original sorcerer while still making it a viable alternative to the wizard.

The delayed progression helps to balance the extremely large amount of spellcasting the class receives. Wizards get more powerful earlier, sorcerers have staying power. To be honest, I don't really see the problem with the delayed progression of the sorcerer, it just means you have to wait longer to break the game, which, combined with the limited spells known, makes a sorcerer much more tolerable in a group of melee characters. At least, in my opinion.

Also, I really don't want to recode the entire table. Sorcerers get plenty of nice things, they don't need spells earlier too.

[Lemmy]

As you pointed out below, the Quicken Spell feat combined with the at-will spells is pretty unfair. Leaving the spontaneous metamagic restrictions prevents those shenanigans.

There is no unlimited limited wish. Limited wish is a 7th level spell. Also, you can't Quicken spontaneous spells, so there's no double spells here.

My mistake, I thought it was a 6th-level. It has been a while since I actually used that spell.
About Quickened spell-casting; can't the sorcerer do the same thing with Chain Spells? It's has less range, sure, but he can still cast 2 spells on the same target and it doesn't increase spell-level like Quickened, so he can use a 9th level spell and a free 6th level spell. And it doesn't cost a feat.

Well, I thought that was what I was doing with the Ancestral Spellcasting ability, but okay, I'll expand it to two extra spells known per spell level.

Indeed, I just think the sorcerer should still be limited to the sorcerer/wizard list, but get more of them instead of borrowing from the cleric's. Arcanes already have most of the more powerful spells anyway.

The delayed progression helps to balance the extremely large amount of spellcasting the class receives. Wizards get more powerful earlier, sorcerers have staying power. To be honest, I don't really see the problem with the delayed progression of the sorcerer, it just means you have to wait longer to break the game, which, combined with the limited spells known, makes a sorcerer much more tolerable in a group of melee characters. At least, in my opinion.

True. I made that suggestion without considering the "magic is broken" aspect of the game as much as the "some classes are better than others, even though they do the same thing". I see those as separate problems, and assumed this homebrew was focusing more on the latter.

Also, I really don't want to recode the entire table. Sorcerers get plenty of nice things, they don't need spells earlier too.

And I completely undestand it. My suggestions were more of the "maybe next time" variety, not "you should change this". I find you to be a very competent homebrewer, so dropping these ideas creates a possibility of maybe them being used someday, since I'm too lazy to do it myself

Note that I DO like what you've done with the class, it's very flavorful (and powerful)... I have this urge of playing a 10th level sorcerer just to use Whirldwind Spell, as I can easily picture a sorcerer breathing fire (or something like that) on all enemies around him.

[NeoSeraphi]

My mistake, I thought it was a 6th-level. It has been a while since I actually used that spell.
About Quickened spell-casting; can't the sorcerer do the same thing with Chain Spells? It's has less range, sure, but he can still cast 2 spells on the same target and it doesn't increase spell-level like Quickened, so he can use a 9th level spell and a free 6th level spell. And it doesn't cost a feat.

Chain Spell is very specific on what you can cast with it though. Two spells with a single target, and that target must be the same target. So you can't, say, cast true strike on yourself and then follow it up with an orb of fire, essentially granting yourself a free +20 to hit every round (since you cast true strike at-will).

Also, Chain Spell uses a full-round action and a swift action, while Quicken+normal spell is just standard+swift. So you can't move when you cast it (and you have to be within 30 feet to even affect another creature). Lots of little hidden restrictions on Chain Spell that make it extraordinarily powerful, but not so powerful that it doesn't belong at low level.

Indeed, I just think the sorcerer should still be limited to the sorcerer/wizard list, but get more of them instead of borrowing from the cleric's. Arcanes already have most of the more powerful spells anyway.

Yeah, but why does that make sense? I mean, if sorcerers can trace their magic from bloodlines and powers from greater beings than themselves, why can't they get domains from those powers, like clerics or favored souls? This is why I feel the Pathfinder sorcerer really shines, because your class gives you a true, tangible connection to your source of power. Mine is just a little more flexible with the type of power it grants you.

True. I made that suggestion without considering the "magic is broken" aspect of the game as much as the "some classes are better than others, even though they do the same thing". I see think those are separate problems, and assumed this homebrew was focusing more on the latter.

The intent of this class is to make the sorcerer different from the wizard. Not necessarily better or worse, just different, as in, actual class features and flavor that makes you feel like you're playing something other than a Cha-based, spontaneous wizard. Unfortunately, a tier 2 is still a tier 2, but the best way to make sure it stays a tier 2 is to remember all the guys below it and try not to overshadow them too much, instead of saying "The wizard can do this, so why shouldn't the sorcerer?"

And I completely undestand it. My suggestions were more of the "maybe next time" variety, not "you should change this". I find you to be a very competent homebrewer, so dropping these ideas creates a possibility of maybe them being used someday, since I'm pretty lazy to do it myself

I'll keep that in mind. Perhaps a spontaneous caster with early spell access wouldn't be too unbalancing, but I think the wizard/sorcerer list is not the right place for that. As you said, that list has some of the more powerful spells in the game. And I don't want to get into a derailing fight about which tier 1's spell list is the best, but I think if I ever brewed a favored soul remix, I would feel a lot more comfortable giving that class cleric spell progression than the sorcerer.

Note that I DO like what you've done with the class, it's very flavorful (and powerful)... I have this urge of playing a 10th level sorcerer just to use Whirldwind Spell, as I can easily picture a sorcerer breathing fire (or something like that) on all enemies around him.

Why thank you. I suggest you use lightning bolt and pirhouette around like an extremely deadly sprinkler.