OOTS #816 - The Discussion Thread

[AutomatedTeller]

I have never noticed facts getting in the way of an internet discussion.

I'm pretty sure that people are still shipping Harry and Hermione, prove that Terry Goodkind is really Ayn Rand's grandson, and trying to make sense of the end of Blazing Saddles.

It's all in good fun, of course.

[Boogastreehouse]

(I'm going to remove a comment that I made earlier. After thinking about it for a while, I think it's similar to comments that have earned me infractions in the past.)

Also: the Oracle may be SMART ENOUGH to understand the Schodinger's Cat problem here. As long as the Oracle doesn't look at something, the future is uncertain and the Oracle can therefore act to avoid something bad. But if the Oracle goes looking for something bad to happen, his viewing it means it cannot be avoided.

For example, if the Oracle had asked, "Will Xykon meet me?", then the answer might be "Yes" and the Oracle would then be screwed. Therefore the Oracle must never ask that sort of question!

Instead, if Oracle asks, "When Xykon coming to my place?", he can use the answer to be out of town then. In some sense, he's changing the future, just not any future that he had foreseen, so it doesn't affect his Oracleness.

This is great. I've often thought that time travel might work like this. If you go back in time you will find yourself unable to change things that you are aware of, but events of which you are uncertain are easily influenced by your efforts.

[factotum]

Because the Oracle's prophecy calls for a Gift Horse, meanwhile Nale was a Trojan Horse. You just said my exact point. The terms are so dissimilar that the prophecy is a false one.

But the point is that Nale *was* a gift horse in this scenario. Haley thought he was Elan, remember, and when Elan--someone who had never shown any romantic interest in her up to this point--suddenly trucks up asking her for a date, it *was* a gift horse! Her paranoia wanted her to refuse the date, but she decided to go with it anyway--thus, she didn't look the gift horse in the mouth. Prophecy true.

The fact he might have been a Trojan horse as well is irrelevant--it wasn't the reason Haley went on the date with him. If the prophecy *HAD* stated Trojan horse then Haley would perforce have had to know that "Elan" was actually Nale in disguise in order to act on it, and that would have been utterly ridiculous!

[Zorgophlats]

Oracle = Mouth of author.

The oracle is simply the authors' way to get information to the characters. The oracles' power is as far reaching and as limited to the amount needed by the author to convey a message. The author in question can't see the entirety of the work until it is completed, just as the oracle seems not to see all the events that he should. Even having a character like this limits the authors' ability to tell a story as well as expands upon it. The author says the oracle is genuine, because he needs him to be. If the authors justifications for the prophecies given don't sit well with you, tough. He is who the author says he is. End of my argument.

Side note: I'm a person who doesn't believe in oracles or fortune tellers. Yet, I recognize the story for what it is, A STORY! Something created by a person who is not infallible.

[Valyrian]

Another question: is there any way Nale should know that Girard (or whatever Draketooth is in charge of the gate) distrusts Soon and the Sapphire Guard? He wasn't there when the Order encountered Girard's illusion. Or is Elan just afraid that Nale might accidentally spill it?

[St Fan]

Another question: is there any way Nale should know that Girard (or whatever Draketooth is in charge of the gate) distrusts Soon and the Sapphire Guard? He wasn't there when the Order encountered Girard's illusion. Or is Elan just afraid that Nale might accidentally spill it?

Well, Nale did hear the whole story of the Order of the Scribble from Shojo, so he knows that Girard and Soon didn't leave in the best of terms. Whether he would conclude it's enough to drive a wedge between Girard's team and the Order of the Stick is uncertain, but as Durkon pointed out Nale can be very tricky, and will probably use any argument he could think off to have Girard trust the Linear Guild and mistrust the Order, while using a minimum of lies and half-truths.

Also, there is the common theory that the scrying eye spying on the Order in the desert was from Zzd'tri. Which, given Nale's slip during his last fight with Elan, is quite likely. What we don't know, however, is how long this scrying has been going on, and what exact information it gathered (or even if this spell has the sound "on", in fact).

[Valyrian]

Right, forgot about Zzd'tri's scrying spell. Seems the Linear Guild is quite lucky in overhearing plot-critical conversations

[Fenchurch]

Aaah, crazy theory time. I'll write mine, but this last strip has made it much more unlikely.

What I thought is that Girard was alone in some cave in the desert guarding the gate. It has been pointed out that he trusts no one, maybe not even his family. So he might have been sitting there, working on elaborated illusions and elongating his own life. Maybe he could get supplies by raiding caravans passing by, he could make the guards flee and then pick up the goods.
Being isolated for such a long time he would have gone crazy, maybe talking to his own illusions and even betting with them.

What I liked about it was that Girard could have been a normal man at first, instead of a deranged paranoid who would kill his former friends. But some arguments with Soon about the death of the dwarf and many years of isolation could have made him lose perspective on morality. The trap on the desert was laid only 12 weeks before the Order got there, so maybe young Girard wouldn't want to kill the paladins, just stay away from them. But after many years of isolation he started to think that as the size of an explosion increases the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero.

Of course, the thing about Penelope doesn't match this crazy theory at all. So... Tarquin must be lying.

[hamishspence]

The trap on the desert was laid only 12 weeks before the Order got there,

It seems to me more like the illusion was placed no more than 12 weeks after the Order of the Scribble split up- since the bet is about how long Soon would take, after the split up, to send people to Girard's Gate.

[bronnt]

It seems to me more like the illusion was placed no more than 12 weeks after the Order of the Scribble split up- since the bet is about how long Soon would take, after the split up, to send people to Girard's Gate.

Yes, that seems right to me. I don't know how you could interpret it any other way.

[Peelee]

Response to Shoelessgdowar. Spoilered 'cause it's kinda hugely long

Spoiler

Show

The Oracle made a point with Roy's gate question that exact wording affects the answer, and therefore intent doesn't matter, only the wording. If that is the case then Belkar's wording does allow for the multiple choice to be anyone on the list, but it also forces that the Death he causes must be final and total, not just temporary. Roy and the Oracle's deaths were transient, temporary, and frankly I disagree with either being Belkar's fault. The curse only requires Belkar to cause lethal damage, his intent or how he did it were not restricted, so the Oracle lying and infuriating him to the point that Belkar would lose his temper just to create the false facade that the prophecy was true is just as suicidal as Roy taking on Xykon atop the dragon, so it was in my opinion assisted suicide, but even barring the suicide/kill perception, it still was not THE Death of the Oracle.

People dismiss me because they're no comprehending my point. This is not Schroedinger's cat, the Oracle with getting Belkar to stab him either tried to change the future (which means he knew/believed he could change it, which means he had the choice to answer the question totally in the negative in the first place) or forced the prophecy to appear to be fulfilled because he knew he'd been called on his lies and the only way to keep up the false pretense of accuracy was to make Belkar, Celia, and Haley temporaraly believe the prophecy had been fulfilled (which is dumb, because as we saw, they forgot that Belkar had stabbed the Oracle as soon as they left the valley, which means Belkar still knows the prophecy was never fulfilled). His actions speak louder then his words.

First: Roy's question was so specifically worded intent couldn't have mattered. If wording didn't matter at least somewhat, nobody would even have to physically ask a question. They could just wander in, their pure intent could be seen, and the Oracle would answer. However, seeing "THE death" instead of "A death" have any meaningful difference is a purely semantic argument on your part, not supported by anything in the comic and only by how you choose to interpret it. Even if we were to take "THE death" as final and ultimate death, there are very few ways to guarantee that in the D&D world. How exactly is Belkar supposed to make someone die of old age? Or is he just supposed to happen across a sphere of annihilation? People in this world can be rezzed, yeah. Hey, people in the real world can become multi-billionaires. Let's both go do that right quick! We can come back to this argument later, when we're sitting on diamond-encrusted thrones and being fanned by beautiful women. Unless, of course, the fact that something can happen has no bearing whatsoever on how easy that thing is to accomplish.

Second: Belkar wasn't going to kill the Oracle. He wanted a refund because he believed the Oracle was a fraud. Belkar was not going to kill the Oracle until the Oracle offered the very tenuous explanations for how he "caused the death of" the people Belks had listed in his question. This aggravated Belkar into stabbing the Oracle, while he had previously only wanted a refund. The talking was the catalyst that led to the Oracle's death. If you're arguing that the prophecy wouldn't have come true if the Oracle had just given a refund, hey, I'll totally agree with that. But that didn't happen, Belkar killed the Oracle, and hey, the prophecy came true.

Third:

Roy and the Oracle's deaths were transient, temporary, and frankly I disagree with either being Belkar's fault.

You.....disagree that it was Belkar's fault the Oracle died?!? BELKAR STABBED THE ORACLE! You are grasping at straws. You claim it was more akin to assisted suicide since the Oracle's speech was the impetus. By that same logic, the Mark of Justice was also activated under fraudulent pretenses, as Belkar didn't cause lethal damage, the knife did. In fact, Belkar has killed very few people in his life. Blades and poisons killed most of them. Belkar was in no way at fault for any of his "murders."

I think it's somewhat ironic that your arguments on the Oracle being a charlatan are increasingly becoming quite similar in structure to the Oracle's arguments that Belkar had killed Roy, Miko, Miko's horse, etc.

I also have yet to see anyone answer: Ginko Bilboa... I say that Prophecy was proven totally wrong, and the comics have proven it with no proof otherwise.

Why, you're absolutely right! Let's ignore that it was a joke, and treat it as an actual prophecy. Nothing with Ginko Bilboa happened in the comic, so it is a false prophecy! Also, Eugene never died on screen, so he's really alive and using magic to pretend to be a ghost, which is why he can't advance past the limbo waiting room! The entire party hasn't leveled since the start of the comic, so Roy can't take that feat his granddad taught him in the afterlife! Oh, wait, a little one-line throwaway joke like that, even if treated as an actual prophecy, would likely not have any impact whatsoever on the story, and would be a waste to illustrate, so it happened off camera. Or, hey, let's assume that it HAS to happen on camera just for the lulz, because it was an official prophecy. Then "Belkar will die" was also a false prophecy as he's still alive and kicking, nothing has happened there and the comic ended so it can't possibly be a future event that we just haven't seen yet, so clearly the Oracle is a charl-owait, the comic hasn't actually ended.

This is addressed to others, not Raddish specificially
Before you call someone for falling below the line, make sure you're not standing on your head. Just because you think your world is the right one, doesn't mean you're not the guy yelling at Columbus that the World is Flat.

I like the Columbus analogy, as everyone in the world knew the world was round, and in had a very close approximation to the exact size of the earth (the Greeks figured this out thousands of years ago). Columbus' entire argument was that a different Greek - who had come up with a much smaller approximate size of the earth based on bad math - meant that the huge, unbroken ocean between Europe and Asia, (remember, they didn't know about the American landmass) the one that was way too big to sail across without starving, was really way smaller than they thought, and could be sailed across without dying.

In other words, it wasn't a flat world vs. round world argument, it was simply a matter of how one man misinterpreted information, and came to his own conclusion based on what he thought, despite mounds of evidence against. Hey, sounds kind of similar to this!

[Fenchurch]

It seems to me more like the illusion was placed no more than 12 weeks after the Order of the Scribble split up- since the bet is about how long Soon would take, after the split up, to send people to Girard's Gate.

Ah, yes. now that I read it like this I don't know what was going through my mind before. I guess I misinterpreted it the first time and didn't realise in all the other re-reads.

[bronnt]

Response to Shoelessgdowar. Spoilered 'cause it's kinda hugely long

Good work on all of that, of course, but I think this has reached the point where arguing with what he's saying is more trouble than it's worth. He's likely to just come back here in a couple of hours to disagree absolutely with everything, and likely, make as little sense as he has with his past 5 posts.

That said, in regards to specific wording versus intent, it's clear that we're dealing with a smart ass oracle at the very least. Roy's original visit to him led to him answering the question, "Where is Xykon?" with, "In the Throne Room." So he's not all about being helpful, that's for sure.

What's funny to me is that, in his post where he accuses the oracle of spin doctoring in order to prove his answers true, Shoeless spin doctors the hell out of like 5 prophesies in order to prove that they're false. He's just relying on people not wanting to take the effort to respond to his gigantic wall of words, so he can post last and, therefore, "win."

[Peelee]

Good work on all of that, of course, but I think this has reached the point where arguing with what he's saying is more trouble than it's worth. He's likely to just come back here in a couple of hours to disagree absolutely with everything, and likely, make as little sense as he has with his past 5 posts.

That said, in regards to specific wording versus intent, it's clear that we're dealing with a smart ass oracle at the very least. Roy's original visit to him led to him answering the question, "Where is Xykon?" with, "In the Throne Room." So he's not all about being helpful, that's for sure.

What's funny to me is that, in his post where he accuses the oracle of spin doctoring in order to prove his answers true, Shoeless spin doctors the hell out of like 5 prophesies in order to prove that they're false. He's just relying on people not wanting to take the effort to respond to his gigantic wall of words, so he can post last and, therefore, "win."

Yeah, but I can hope. I don't like how I was way snarkier than I normally am. I must have been pretty annoyed at some of the arguments. Too lazy to fix that and make it nicer, though. And I do like how you called out his rationales mirrorring the Oracle's ridiculous reasonings. I tried to do that too, but you were way more direct. And yeah, I fully expect it not to work. Gave it a shot, though.


....SO, how's about that comic 816?