OOTS #816 - The Discussion Thread

[TheMeMan]

If anyone but Tarquin killed his latest wife, I'm surprised that he let it stand at "killed by mysterious circumstances." I would have expected his ego to demand a full-scale investigation with bloody revenge at the end, even if he'd been planning to kill her himself in a week or so.

Oh, but it makes for a much better level of Drama to leave it at Mysterious Circumstances! Investigating it would just be droll, and leave no room for an unexpected(Expected) encounter with the real killer.

Also, I'm going with a previous theory that Girard is body-hopping into his descendant. Hence the mark on the face. Longevity poses zero problem in this regard, and he seems like the type to do it.

[Bulldog Psion]

Tarquin says she would start blabbing about it every time she drank. Odds are during the courtship, Tarquin found out about it, before anyone else, and he didnt kill her off right then so he didn't care. Nale cares because he knows 'Draketooth' is in possesion of a powerful magic gate that would allow him to rule the world. Unless Tarquin has been using psionics to steal the information from the Order while they sleep, I dont see where the information comes from. I'm pretty sure Nale doesnt spill the info to Thog, he just tells Thog things like "you get to use rocket skates!!!!"

Exactly. The "Nale nail Not-Nale" speech demonstrates amply exactly how good Thog is at providing useful information when you capture him.

[rbetieh]

For now, we only have Tarquin´s version of the story. Even if he isn´t lying, we don´t know Orrin´s reasons yet.
Note: I´m not defending Draketooth, only avoiding to judge before knowing all the facts.

Actually, we know Tarquins 9th wifes version of the story as best remembered and truthfully recounted by Tarquin.

[Scrynor]

Meanwhile (presumably), the daughter is forced to defend the gate, having known nothing else in her life. God only knows what lies she's been fed by her kidnapper father/family.

In terms of pure scum-baggery, that's up there with Xykon best/worst acts. I only hope that when this arc is finished, Penelope's daughter is the only survivor of the Draketooth clan. She's the only one who deserves to be.

So... you're prepared to comdemn the entire Draketooth clan to death relying on second-hand knowledge (some firsthand - desert explosion) accounts of two of the clans members actions and spare one member only (with no knowledge of her lifetime actions) because she was presumably raised as a soldier-child? When that statement is just as presumably true for EVERY other member of the clan descended from Girard including the father (Orrin) you seem to instantly hate so much?

[King Bosco III]

[please nobody take me seriously]
Is she Therkla?
[/please nobody take me seriously]

OMG!!! That's exactly it!!! IT MUST BE THERKLA!!! The entire universe makes sense now...

Anyone else wonder why Tarquin [assumption] only divorced Elan/Nale's mother and killed all the others? [/assumption]

[the_tick_rules]

Oh so now everyone is gonna be guessing who the daughter is? Sounds like fun.

[Peelee]

What kind of master of disguise changes only his first name and expects people to not catch on? File this under "with the glasses, without the glasses".

A bit late to the party on this one, but why are so many people clamoring that Orrin only changed his first name? The comic never says what name he gave to Penelope. The only thing it states is that she eventually learned his real name was Orrin Draketooth, which is why Tarquin recognized the Draketooth name. The only people who were confused on the first-name-only were the OotS. For all we know, he gave a completely fake name.

[Ron Miel]

For the record, we know that Orrin, the daughter, and the money left at the same time. We have guessed that Orrin took the daughter and the money.

The evidence is that all three disappeared together. All the rest of it came from Haley's speculation, based on projecting Ian's thoughts onto both Girard and Orrin.

We have to consider the possibility that Girard took the money and his granddaughter, and that Orrin pursued him to attempt a rescue. He might be held prisoner somewhere shielded from divination spells, and completely blameless.

I really hope that was intended as a joke. But just in case you were serious, see that a note was left behind in panel 4. Presumably that is Orrin saying that he took the money and the child.

[AutomatedTeller]

Oh so now everyone is gonna be guessing who the daughter is? Sounds like fun.

She's clearly Julia.

[Peelee]

I really hope that was intended as a joke. But just in case you were serious, see that a note was left behind in panel 4. Presumably that is Orrin saying that he took the money and the child.

Solely to help that theory out, the note could have been written by Girard/whatever Draketooth did the deed, and directed at Orrin (sort of a threat or warning, if you will). Orrin took off after in chase. Penelope only ever searched for her daughter, according to the story we have (which, yes, may be biased from Tarquin's POV, from being told to HIM from Penelope's POV, and from any possible omissions Tarquin might have thrown in for flavor), not for the husband, which would make sense as he was attempting to get her back, in this theory.

[bronnt]

Doh! General Knowledge...

Yes, I chuckled at the pun in the title also.

[Adama]

I don't think it was just 30K hobgoblins. Titanium Elementals, a death knight, and, of course, a lich pinning all the paladins in one place.

That said, 10K is a pretty big army...

Yeah, but also on the flip side a whole herd of Paladins, a high level fighter, high level rogue, high level wizard, high level cleric, sexy shoeless god of war, and that other mid-to-upper-level rogue they pulled out of the dungeons.

We don't know how long it was from that point to when the baby was born, and we don't know how long Penelope and Tarquin were together--presumably not *very* long, considering she was his ninth wife, but nonetheless it's impossible to say for sure exactly how long elapsed between Orrin's disappearance and Tarquin/Penelope's marriage.

Actually we do know at least somewhat of how long they were together. We know that Nale and Tarquin parted company two years ago, during the rise of the Empress after Nale tried to double-cross them. We also know from Tarquin that he was married to Penelope at least awhile before Nale left, since he could have easily heard the story from her. Thus, Tarquin and Penelope were married for at least two years, probably more.

[Kish]

Oh so now everyone is gonna be guessing who the daughter is? Sounds like fun.

I call "a character we haven't seen before."

[bronnt]

Solely to help that theory out, the note could have been written by Girard/whatever Draketooth did the deed, and directed at Orrin (sort of a threat or warning, if you will). Orrin took off after in chase. Penelope only ever searched for her daughter, according to the story we have (which, yes, may be biased from Tarquin's POV, from being told to HIM from Penelope's POV, and from any possible omissions Tarquin might have thrown in for flavor), not for the husband, which would make sense as he was attempting to get her back, in this theory.

Or maybe it was Dorukan who kidnapped the child, which turned out to be Celia, because HE needed to create a support staff for his own dungeon. He intentionally framed Orrin Draketooth because he knew that nobody that would suspect he was conducting business on the Western Continent. We already know that he had the ability to teleport in and out of his dungeon. Then Orrin had to leave immediately because he still had to protect the secret of the rifts, and couldn't explain to his then-wife Penelope about who was kidnapping their daughter.

Then, if her "friend" truly was Sabine in disguise, she'd know about the female sylph who had been in the dungeon of Dorukan, and would be feeding Penelope hints about what she's learned about the order of the scribble in order to track where Orrin Draketooth might have gone. Tarkin, of course, then had his wife killed because he correctly deduced that her "friend" was a friend of Nale's, without knowing the actual reasoning behind it-assuming instead an assassination attempt directed at himself.

The real kicker is that Eugene Greenhilt was conspiring with Dorukan in his kidnapping plot. I mean, remember how he's able to communicate with in the Dungeon of Dorukan despite the headband that let him cast cloister? It only makes sense that he specific allowed an exemption to allow him to talk to Eugene Greenhilt, so that he could use his ability to spy on the rest of the world from beyond the planes. It explains how Greenhilt knew exactly who to contact after the Gate was destroyed, going to directly to Shojo, in order to give his son the information he needed about Xykon and the plan to attack the rest of the gates. It also shows why he's disapproving of his son's relationship with the sylph-he knows who her father really is, and in fact helped kidnap her. Eugene's biggest mistake, of course, was failing to inform Roy where he could find Girard's Gate in truth, since it would have allowed them to arrive before the Linear Guild.

(The above has been my impression of an epileptic tree theory).

[rewinn]

I call "a character we haven't seen before."

OMG! the kid is a wizard with Invisibility!

She may be in every panel!!!!

[Puschkin]

I really hope that Tarquin survives this comic till the end. Greatest non-hero character ever.

[Trixie]

How as his daughter in danger living a simple life?

Because, duh, with no one to protect the Gate it might have been a very short life?

And no, what he did wasn't a divorce. He kept the child's mother from ever seeing her daughter and stole her money. Hell, even Tarquin tried to avoid that!

What's ironic in these words, I think, is that a lot of people who condemn Girard right now would furiously defend the same act as paragon of Goodness had it been a Paladin that left a family to introduce his daughter to Paladin order, taking money to be spent in the cause of gods

Roy is frowning because Tarquin just related a tidbit about a group of heroic adventurers rushing to stop him and then chuckled, "Spoiler alert: They failed." And Roy does not find evil triumphing over good funny or appealing.

So, he is future psychic to know what exactly Tarquin was referring to?

So, your concept of a divorce is "clean out your spouse's family savings account, take your and your spouse's infant child, and disappear in the night, making sure you can't be followed"?

Good to know.

Nope, it's US popular culture concept. Plus, most of divorces end up exactly that, sorry to inform you. Real life isn't just sunshine, sadly.

{{scrubbed}}

[Incom]

Obviously the daughter is V, thus solving the gender debate.

Obviously.

Also, Elan is too smart, must have swapped places with Nale again somehow.

[Peelee]

Roy is frowning because Tarquin just related a tidbit about a group of heroic adventurers rushing to stop him and then chuckled, "Spoiler alert: They failed." And Roy does not find evil triumphing over good funny or appealing.

So, he is future psychic to know what exactly Tarquin was referring to?

The characters are aware they live in a comic world (that is, they are not aware that their lives are dependent on an author and that they have no free will, but they are aware that time passes through strips, for example). They also occasionally take advantage of this, such as Haley taking the diamond from the cast page to use in rezzing Roy. I see this as Roy actually being able to see the panel in question, same as we can, and thus being unamused. While that's just my take on it, it does make quite a bit of sense, since if Roy CAN'T see that panel, Tarquin's comment to him becomes completely nonsensical from his point of view, and just becomes a punchline for the reader's benefit. Keep in mind, when the Oracle directly addressed the audience, Roy was thoroughly confused; it seems that would also be the case here, unless Roy is able to see the dialogue/action in the preceding panel.

[Kish]

So, he is future psychic to know what exactly Tarquin was referring to?
[...]
Also, mmm, smell of straw above greatly resembles Midwest just after harvest.

{{scrubbed}}

[AutomatedTeller]

That's an interesting question - are flashbacks like that showing the audience what happened, or are they representations of what one character is saying to another? Are they supposed to be canon, or subject to the character's biases?

Anyone know?

[Scrynor]

We're seriously debating this?

Tarquin's line in the final panel makes absolutely no sense if Roy didn't get to see the 2nd to last panel. Whether you choose to personally believe that Tarquinn told the tale during panel n-1 and we just got the fun view or everyone could see the flashback panel is irrelevant. Roy, at very least, knows what we know in this particular circumstance.

Tarquin didn't just say the totally random result of just combining his uninterrupted lines into one word bubble ("Think nothing of it, Elan. We've all had that one adventure that suddenly turned into a race. Spoiler alert: They failed").

[Pory]

That's an interesting question - are flashbacks like that showing the audience what happened, or are they representations of what one character is saying to another? Are they supposed to be canon, or subject to the character's biases?

Anyone know?

I suppose they are super detailed representations of what a character is saying or maybe the characters can see the panels just like we do. In any case, this isn't the first time something like this happens.

[Peelee]

That's an interesting question - are flashbacks like that showing the audience what happened, or are they representations of what one character is saying to another? Are they supposed to be canon, or subject to the character's biases?

Anyone know?

I would say it's very contextually based. In most instances, they are used as a joke themselves or as the set up for a joke, and are largely serve no purpose for the characters to know. I would say that unless it is in some way indicated that the character then knows about the event in question, it is assumed s/he did not see it, and it was for the viewer's benefit alone. As for them being representations of what one character says to another, that IS an interesting question indeed. Assuming the character understands it (as Roy does here, according to my belief), I think it is a quirk of the world the characters live in. Namely, that they recognize the panel as a flashback/memory/exposition and understand it for what it is, rather than being a visual summary of what is being explained. The crayon drawings could reinforce this line of thought, as it had copious amounts of voiceover explaining what was going on, with the strips themselves being more akin to visual aids than the normal strip format of being half of the storytelling medium. However, that example is also not terribly good, as it is a much, much larger story that is being told, and spans multiple strips. I am sure there are also examples that could strongly indicate instances of single (or low number of-) panels where it seems highly likely that the panels are a summation of what is being told to the characters, but I cannot recall any at the moment, and I'm not in a position right now where i could easily search through the archives for one.

In short, it seems to me that it may be dealt with on a case-by-case basis, and there is no hard and fast rule governing all such instances. Could very easily be wrong here, though.

[The Pilgrim]

Your town has medieval abortion practices, but not condoms?

Yup. Weird place, uh?

[Gnoman]

We're seriously debating this?

Tarquin's line in the final panel makes absolutely no sense if Roy didn't get to see the 2nd to last panel. Whether you choose to personally believe that Tarquinn told the tale during panel n-1 and we just got the fun view or everyone could see the flashback panel is irrelevant. Roy, at very least, knows what we know in this particular circumstance.

Tarquin didn't just say the totally random result of just combining his uninterrupted lines into one word bubble ("Think nothing of it, Elan. We've all had that one adventure that suddenly turned into a race. Spoiler alert: They failed").

Actually, that does make sense as a sentence if you read it out loud. The exact nature of the failure would be unknown, but it's quite clear that the first part is him recalling a time when that happened to him, and the second part is a bit of gloating over winning said race. As roy knows enough about Tarquin to guess the nature and motives of anyone racing him, the comic would work without the flashback.

[Adanedhel]

For now, we only have Tarquin´s version of the story. Even if he isn´t lying, we don´t know Orrin´s reasons yet.
Note: I´m not defending Draketooth, only avoiding to judge before knowing all the facts.

Faustin, I agree with that, however the argument I gave was in response to Trixie, who represented the view that what happened there in the comic was a non evil act, wether or not it happened as described there has no influence on wether or not that action constitutes to a normal divorce, because we look at the action as represented, this does not condemn Orrin, unless he really did that, without any currently to us unknown motivation :)

And Trixie, even in your very cynical view, this goes before a Judge first, you're only divorced with such major drawbacks if the judge is firmly against you, my parents are divorced, and so are a lot of people I know, and this is not how it goes (unless one parent really, really screwed up)

[TheCoolThatguy]

Because, duh, with no one to protect the Gate it might have been a very short life? ..

In a world of adventurers, there are easier ways to protect something than breeding defenders that will need at least fourteen years of time before they can hope to effectively defend the gate.

And nothing about that precludes him from getting his wife's consent.

What's ironic in these words, I think, is that a lot of people who condemn Girard right now would furiously defend the same act as paragon of Goodness had it been a Paladin that left a family to introduce his daughter to Paladin order, taking money to be spent in the cause of gods ..

You can promise that, eh? So you're a future future psychic then?

And yeah, I don't care about what others might do. This isn't that situation, and I'm not them.

Nope, it's US popular culture concept. Plus, most of divorces end up exactly that, sorry to inform you. Real life isn't just sunshine, sadly..

And murder happens in real life. That doesn't make it moral or ethical.

[Andre]

Poor NPC.

I'll just point along in the direction of similar concepts certain people expressed, and say that maintaining a gate to hold back the Snarl and an Evil alignment are not mutually exclusive. Y'know, Belkar is in the "good team" after all, even if it takes Roy to keep everyone on the railroad tracks.

[Trixie]

While that's just my take on it, it does make quite a bit of sense, since if Roy CAN'T see that panel, Tarquin's comment to him becomes completely nonsensical from his point of view, and just becomes a punchline for the reader's benefit. Keep in mind, when the Oracle directly addressed the audience, Roy was thoroughly confused; it seems that would also be the case here, unless Roy is able to see the dialogue/action in the preceding panel.

But that's the thing. Oracle powers are presented as special, and his ability to actually see the panels is unique. Therefore, as you noted, Tarquin's comment is nonsensical, or dictated by bardic traditions.

Faustin, I agree with that, however the argument I gave was in response to Trixie, who represented the view that what happened there in the comic was a non evil act, wether or not it happened as described there has no influence on wether or not that action constitutes to a normal divorce, because we look at the action as represented, this does not condemn Orrin, unless he really did that, without any currently to us unknown motivation :)

I only postulated we don't know enough about the situation to judge, and certainly not judge as strongly as 'genocide whole family!' voices.

And Trixie, even in your very cynical view, this goes before a Judge first, you're only divorced with such major drawbacks if the judge is firmly against you, my parents are divorced, and so are a lot of people I know, and this is not how it goes (unless one parent really, really screwed up)

Cultural differences, then. Recently, we had a national case that was a whole lot worse than that.

In a world of adventurers, there are easier ways to protect something than breeding defenders that will need at least fourteen years of time before they can hope to effectively defend the gate.

But easier =/= secure, does it?

You can promise that, eh? So you're a future future psychic then?

I'm never wrong!

And murder happens in real life. That doesn't make it moral or ethical.

Nope. It is bad, as is kidnapping someone, I agree. But, in my book, vigilante/mob justice 'lynch them all!' is just as bad, if not worse.