General Exalted Discussion Thread VIII: Ten Thousand Playgrounders Post As One!

[DrakeRaids]

bah, I prefer a challenge! I would gladly try and figure out a way to defeat a bunch of enlightened mortals with artifacts that grant perfect defenses!

that and by the rules isn't always the best way to play any game, and besides the only setting rules I would truly never try to break are the ones that are truly impossible: time travel, resurrection, unExalting. I haven't made an artifact that does any of these and never will, so therefore if anything else is possible, then its possible and I accept that.

bah, I prefer a challenge! I would gladly try and figure out a way to defeat a bunch of enlightened mortals with artifacts that grant perfect defenses!

enlightened mortals with artifacts that grant perfect defenses!

artifacts that grant perfect defenses!

You're joking right? I find it difficult to believe this can be anything but an elaborate joke, or supreme exaggeration of some kind. I mean... really? Did you just suggest that should be a thing? Or am I drastically misjudging your words? Please be the former, because I find it difficult to believe you would think this is anything but a horrendously poor idea.

[Lord Raziere]

I said that I respected honesty. I am therefore honest myself.

and furthermore…would that not be the very thing that Exalts are meant to do? figure out a way to defeat some seemingly difficult or even impossible to defeat foe? they defeated the Primordials after all, so I think the Exalted can overcome any challenge, if they are creative enough. what is a few mortals with shields like that against defeating the architects of the world?

[Tavar]

Cute!


Shame, though, that Tavar invests such negative energy in telling others that they are wrong with such...gusto. It's both amazing and disappointing to watch. Tavar should well know that an opinion which deviates from the published manuals is not canon...and therefore wrong.



It's just...saddening, really. It makes me, personally, sad. Some things may be wrong in the real world, but differing opinions about Exalted should not be one of them.

Uh....no. First off, it might be a good idea to, instead of making up an argument to knock down, instead look at what I actually said, and reply to that. I didn't say that the rules should be disregarded: I said that the rules didn't quite say what he implied they said. Additionally, my main position was that, when homebrewing, one should not only use the rules(which, by their own admission, are a rough guideline, and will by necessity involve many judgement calls) but also compare to existing works.

Additionally, I do not and have not held the opinion that holding a non-canon viewpoint is wrong. What is wrong is misrepresenting said viewpoint as the canon viewpoint, and blaming the line developers for making such a viewpoint the canon one, when it in fact isn't. Or claiming that certain evidence leads to something, when there are flaws with the evidence in question.

Lord Raziere, I think it's a combination of Gensh's point and the fact that, well, there's not much explanation to your idea beyond X does Y. Giving the artifact some sort of interesting flavor is important.

As for the artifact that gives perfect defenses...that depends on several requirements. Ease of use for the perfect, how repeatable the perfect is, the flaw, and the rank of the artifact. If you're talking about giving it a celestial level perfect, you're probably talking about something N/A(ie, plot device) tier at best. And even then, there'd be quite a bit of furor over it.

[DrakeRaids]

I said that I respected honesty. I am therefore honest myself.

and furthermore…would that not be the very thing that Exalts are meant to do? figure out a way to defeat some seemingly difficult or even impossible to defeat foe? they defeated the Primordials after all, so I think the Exalted can overcome any challenge, if they are creative enough. what is a few mortals with shields like that against defeating the architects of the world?

Alright. Lets start at this, from a lore perspective, as in Exalted, lore is incredibly important, whether one likes it or not. Your first issues with creating artifacts with directly duplicate celestial level effects, comes about in the primordial war, an the creation of exalted themselves, which was not an easy thing, and would have been largely unnecessary. Why bother making Dragon blooded, and Solars, and Lunars when one can simply give a few million mortals a sword that gives them a spirit killing attack, and maybe a perfect attack, a shield that gives them a usable perfect parry, and armor that gives them a perfect soak? Exalted where specially designed tools, and the UCS didn't have them made just cause they could. This was there best option, these are smart people.

Furthermore, handing out charms like that largely lessens the impact of exalted. The Exalted are supposed to be incredibly powerful, and mass producing anything they do, quite frankly, cheapens the experience.

Mechanically it opens up a whole new can of worms, expanding the fundamental and often commented upon flaws in the exalted combat system, rather then doing anything to fix them, making combat longer, and more frustrating. Perfect Defenses cause more problems as you go later on, if given freely to mortals (And dragon blooded... and ghosts... and jadefolk... and dragon kings...and fair folk). Several powerful entities can be potentially threatened by nonexalts, when they couldn't before, and where clearly designed narratively and mechanically to go against them.

The balance of power shifts suddenly, and dramatically. Not even half castes (Who also clearly display why making celestial charms common is a horrible, horrible idea) get PD's Raziere. They're a big deal. Hell, the only way I could see this working, if it was an incredibly rare and high level artifact, with equally harsh drawbacks, like dealing several unsoakable levels of damage.

I mean, why would you even want to do this? What does this accomplish that is in any way desirable? Slightly tougher mortals? Why do you want to do this?

[Lord Raziere]

fine fine.

just give me a freaking list of all the Big Deal things I can't mess with, that will be easier than listening about how I messed up again.

[Tavar]

It's trickier than that. There isn't a list. Or, there is, but the only item is "Stuff that breaks the games feel/theme". And, even those can be usable depending on the exact situation in a game. For instance, there are times when having Resurrection be possible in game isn't a bad thing. The issue with those is that they are never appropriate for the game developers to make, thus it's solely dependent on the group.

[Dragnar]

It would be... rather difficult to condense that into a simple list. Thing is, an artifact needs to pass two tests to be "good".

1. Game balance: Obviously you can't have an artifact 1 that makes you utterly invulnerable. (Well. Unless it does this by permanently turning you to stone or something, but even that would likely be 2/3.) You can get a pretty good feel for where any given artifact should fall by looking through other homebrew/canon artifacts, and you have gotten a lot better at this anyway.

2. Setting balance: And here's the tricky one. Artifacts cannot be allowed to break the setting in any way. As a quick guideline to that: Mortals can make artifact 3s. Mortals can USE any artifact. So, if mortals having access to whatever power you are making is a Bad Thing? It cannot be an artifact. No matter what, the influence of mortals must never be significant enough to alter major setting events.

Since that second one is a bit complicated, here's an example: That theoretical artifact to give mortals Perfect Defenses. Anyone with one of those can stand up to anything in the setting... so why didn't they? Exalted were made because it was the only way to dethrone the primordials... so if such a thing could exist, why didn't Autocthon just create endless numbers of those and hand them to mortal soldiers? Sure, tons would die. But with Perfect Effects they would be able to whittle the primordials down with each death, fetich killing them all until they took some more desirable form.

[Lord Raziere]

wel then I'm lost, I just want to make cool artifacts and I'll just try and stay away from Big Deal stuff, whatever they may be.

but still…can't alter major setting events? ggrr…..that will be hard to work around.

and I'm sorry I keep doing this sometimes….I need to get better at stuff….

mostly, I just want more flashy stuff. most charms are too in theme and practical. and stunts can only be done once. or something. maybe my attention just hops like a leapfrog everywhere….

[Story Time]

Raziere, I would like to request that the next time you suggest an artifact, it be with not less than one hundred words of description beyond the title, the cost, the mote commitment, and the repair number. I ask this quietly and with no amount of hostility. It may be that making extremely brief artifacts, often, in a thread could be seen by the other members as an attempt for attention. Obviously, I can not possibly pretend to know the minds of others, but I do believe that there is some merit to the suspicion that an artifact without flavor is an artifact unfinished.

And perhaps the other members of this thread would prefer to focus their investigative senses against complete artifacts rather than those that are, or seem to be, incomplete.

Again, I mean no offense. Pick an idea...build it for one week...little by little per day. If you then feel that you want to share it, do so, or if you feel like you wish to make another, then do that. Perhaps you could wind up with a home-brew document of artifacts and other things which members of our forum could then pore through. That, I think, might interest them.

[Lord Raziere]

ok, yes, I'll try….I'll start by coming up with flavor for this artifact called Forgemaul that I'm thinking about….

to get us out of my foolishness, I'll ask a more light-hearted question: what Compass should I get next? South or Scavenger Lands? the other books I don't have are East, Blessed Isle and RotSE, as well I think, Scroll of Kings, though I doubt I'll ever get the last one.

[DrakeRaids]

RotSE is chock full of cool charms if that swings your fancy. If you're getting a CoTD I tend to like scavanger lands myself.

[Gensh]

ok, yes, I'll try….I'll start by coming up with flavor for this artifact called Forgemaul that I'm thinking about….

to get us out of my foolishness, I'll ask a more light-hearted question: what Compass should I get next? South or Scavenger Lands? the other books I don't have are East, Blessed Isle and RotSE, as well I think, Scroll of Kings, though I doubt I'll ever get the last one.

RotSE is an excellent reference if you want to run the Reclamation, even if you want to modify it heavily, just because it gives you a rough idea of who's active where and how the major power players would react to the return of Her Redness and Yozi takeover. The book that's most generally useful, however, is more than likely going to be Scavenger Lands since that's where the heart of civilization was prior to the move to Meru and because that's where most of the major players are at the present time. Of course, things may vary depending on how things run in your own game - "all roads lead to Chiaroscuro" has become a common phrase in my current game.

[golentan]

RotSE is an excellent reference if you want to run the Reclamation, even if you want to modify it heavily, just because it gives you a rough idea of who's active where and how the major power players would react to the return of Her Redness and Yozi takeover. The book that's most generally useful, however, is more than likely going to be Scavenger Lands since that's where the heart of civilization was prior to the move to Meru and because that's where most of the major players are at the present time. Of course, things may vary depending on how things run in your own game - "all roads lead to Chiaroscuro" has become a common phrase in my current game.

Yeah, it feels like most of the time I find myself in Chiaroscuro. That said, lookshy and nexus and thorns are all great places to adventure and the scavenger lands book is a good source on them.

[TheCountAlucard]

what Compass should I get next? South or Scavenger Lands?

Both are pretty sweet.

[Lord Raziere]

I decided to get RotSE, Scavenger Lands and South.

read RotSE. well-detailed. helpful. some thinking might have to be done about adapting those universal yozi charms though….

as for the Scarlet Empress herself……meh. in all honesty I'd throw her in a pit with a bunch of beastmen who know Golden Janissary style and see what happens. KIDDING! I'd use Dragon-Blooded.

am reading Scavenger lands now….

[Drascin]

It would be... rather difficult to condense that into a simple list. Thing is, an artifact needs to pass two tests to be "good".

1. Game balance: Obviously you can't have an artifact 1 that makes you utterly invulnerable. (Well. Unless it does this by permanently turning you to stone or something, but even that would likely be 2/3.) You can get a pretty good feel for where any given artifact should fall by looking through other homebrew/canon artifacts, and you have gotten a lot better at this anyway.

2. Setting balance: And here's the tricky one. Artifacts cannot be allowed to break the setting in any way. As a quick guideline to that: Mortals can make artifact 3s. Mortals can USE any artifact. So, if mortals having access to whatever power you are making is a Bad Thing? It cannot be an artifact. No matter what, the influence of mortals must never be significant enough to alter major setting events.

Since that second one is a bit complicated, here's an example: That theoretical artifact to give mortals Perfect Defenses. Anyone with one of those can stand up to anything in the setting... so why didn't they? Exalted were made because it was the only way to dethrone the primordials... so if such a thing could exist, why didn't Autocthon just create endless numbers of those and hand them to mortal soldiers? Sure, tons would die. But with Perfect Effects they would be able to whittle the primordials down with each death, fetich killing them all until they took some more desirable form.

Honestly, the second one I don't find particularly necessary. The setting comes pre-broken, in that many times the mechanics do not really support what the fluff says has been happening already. Adding one more piece of such mechanics for the sake of an amusing charm or artifact does not particularly strike me as a disaster. You're not breaking a setting, you're just adding a bit to the massive dissociative disorder it has despite its conceit of rule/fluff integration .

[DrakeRaids]

Honestly, the second one I don't find particularly necessary. The setting comes pre-broken, in that many times the mechanics do not really support what the fluff says has been happening already. Adding one more piece of such mechanics for the sake of an amusing charm or artifact does not particularly strike me as a disaster. You're not breaking a setting, you're just adding a bit to the massive dissociative disorder it has despite its conceit of rule/fluff integration .

That logic is not healthy for the game Drascin. If we want to help make Exalted better, we should be making things that support the setting and mechanics, not add further dissonance. And if you're not trying to make the game better, whats the point of making homebrew to begin with?

[Guancyto]

I think the difference lies between 'things you're doing for your own game,' where you can do whatever crazy, off-the-wall thing you like so long as the players enjoy it...

...and creating homebrew for other people to use, which ought to fulfill the criteria mentioned above. If there was ever a game that benefited when you play fast and loose with the rules, Exalted is it, but at the same time when you're making a Charm or an Artifact or a MA style, it should be able to plug into other people's Creations with a minimum of fuss.

For instance, I would never in a million years suggest a Geomantic Network background (to Manse what Wealth is to Resources) where at level 5 you can pick whatever hearthstones you like and roll with them, but there's a specific game that does that and it works for them.

[Cyborg Mage]

I think it might be a bit late to say I'm posting just for thread tracking.

On the other hand, I may have found what 3-dot Martial Arts stunts look like.

[golentan]

I think it might be a bit late to say I'm posting just for thread tracking.

On the other hand, I may have found what 3-dot Martial Arts stunts look like.

Too flaily and not enough epic before the target comes apart at the seams.

[TheCountAlucard]

Plus, no anima effects!

[Cyborg Mage]

Did anyone say they were using charms?

Though very flaily, yes.

[TheCountAlucard]

Did anyone say they were using charms?

If they're killing a person with one unarmed martial arts attack, they're either using Charms or have a ridiculous Strength and are fighting extras.

Alternative argument: Even when not using Charms, if I could flare my anima when doing a finishing move, I would.

[Drascin]

That logic is not healthy for the game Drascin. If we want to help make Exalted better, we should be making things that support the setting and mechanics, not add further dissonance. And if you're not trying to make the game better, whats the point of making homebrew to begin with?

The question is, which one are you going to support? Fluff or mechanics? Because those are rather different philosophies. Fluff goes for "lessers can overthrow betters". Mechanics goes for "betters would need to be mentally handicapped to be overthrown at all". Fluff goes for "everyone goes crazy in the end". Mechanics just give you small penalties and the Curse is an afterthought. And so on and so forth.

My meaning is, I know I should, but it's hard to care all that much about "this mechanic contradicts the fluff" when there's such a bunch of other mechanics also contradicting the fluff, you know?

[MickJay]

Thanks for the replies. As for the utility of a one-use item, consider just how much easier they're to make than "proper", reusable artifacts. A well-built Twilight can make dozens of them if necessary in a very short time. It's a perfect solution when you only care for a one-off effect, or an item to use in an emergency. Furthermore, you can give it to a henchman for a specific task, or even equip a bunch of minions who can unleash the spells simultaneously; all that without worrying too much about the risks of entrusting powerful items to NPCs (instead of attunement for motes, non-enlightened mortals could commit Willpower instead).

edit: on the whole, I do agree that it's more of a thaumaturgical item - whole "artifact" thing only comes into play because of the power of the effect; still, some thaumaturgical items are counted as lesser artifacts for the purpose of expressing their cost/value.

[Drascin]

Thanks for the replies. As for the utility of a one-use item, consider just how much easier they're to make than "proper", reusable artifacts. A well-built Twilight can make dozens of them if necessary in a very short time. It's a perfect solution when you only care for a one-off effect, or an item to use in an emergency. Furthermore, you can give it to a henchman for a specific task, or even equip a bunch of minions who can unleash the spells simultaneously; all that without worrying too much about the risks of entrusting powerful items to NPCs (instead of attunement for motes, non-enlightened mortals could commit Willpower instead).

I have been thinking about such things, myself. Having a Sidereal raising fast in the Sid Craft tree makes one want to think ways to make use of the ability to produce Atrifact 1s at downright ludicrous speed. But it's only useful if you have a mass of people who can use it, so it has to be stuff mortals can use. We even have antecedents, such as the mortal version of the shock pikes and one-use items like Skin of the Mountains Oil.

Thankfully, the D&D Magic Item Compendium is full of ideas

[golentan]

Personally, I don't see why people don't make more use of craft focused gods. In much the same vein as a Crafting Hellstrider (though to a lesser degree), they can be better than a factory cathedral for mass producing artifacts.

[TheCountAlucard]

I have been thinking about such things, myself. Having a Sidereal raising fast in the Sid Craft tree makes one want to think ways to make use of the ability to produce Atrifact 1s at downright ludicrous speed.

And thanks to your thinking, I've started thinking about Predestined Delivery Shaping.

Sending someone a Soulbreaker Orb, hm?

Eh, nah, I'm sure that one's been done before.

Ooh, I know! Just use the Charm to deliver one of meschlum's Fair Folk artifacts.

[Drascin]

Personally, I don't see why people don't make more use of craft focused gods. In much the same vein as a Crafting Hellstrider (though to a lesser degree), they can be better than a factory cathedral for mass producing artifacts.

Probably because gods tend to be a lot less pliable than equivalent demons.

Also, Alucard, you should probably realize that as written Predestined Delivery Shaping doesn't quite work. It talks about roll difficulties and an extended roll with an interval of a month, but never actually gives you a number of target successes for it to finally arrive, or tell you how much it advances, or anything.

Me and Recaiden hacked a little fix for our game, though .

[Story Time]

For the record, there is nothing wrong with a single use, non-artifact item, which a mortal can use without essence and still provide a perfect defense. However, I expect that item to be heavily restricted as to where and how it can be used.

Such items could be fantastic gifts given by those who wield essence to their mortal allies and followers. I think of it as a plot hook.