(New RPG) Rogue: Clandestine Operations (comments are welcome)

[Kensen]

Yep 3d6 simulates the bell curve pretty well without changing the average value of 10.5, which means that it's possible to change back and forth without changing much else.

But having your skill level determine the TN and adjusting it a bit based on the difficulty level does exactly the same thing as adding your skill ranks on the roll and adjusting the TN based on difficulty. It's the same math, the same bell curve and same probabilities, just calculated in a slightly different order. The only difference is that you suggested difficulty modifiers of -3...+3 while currently they're often multiples of 5, or 10+skill if you're trying to beat another character at something. It might be a good idea to use smaller modifiers here and there because 3d6 means that modifiers become more important than the actual roll, but otherwise I don't see any real difference besides it being less intuitive to people who are used to "higher is better".

Or am I missing something here???

[Eldest]

Um...
Let's say I roll a 8, have 3 ranks in the skill, and a pentalty of 2 on the skill roll.

I'd have a skill of 11, modified to an 9 for the penalty. I rolled an 8, so it worked.

The way you explained it:
Rolled an 8, add 3, subtract 2. End up with a 9. Same math, but you don't know what the TN is, so you don't know if it worked or not.

One problem with what I suggested is that, as I just found out, you need to tell us the penalty for it to all be in one consolidated form. So you could say "make a gadgetry roll, at -2" for picking a lock, I'd put in [roll]3d6[/roll] TN: 12, and find out then if it worked. For things the player doesn't know will be happening, you'd have to roll yourself. It would require some trust between players and DM, which should be there anyway.

[Kensen]

Um...
Let's say I roll a 8, have 3 ranks in the skill, and a pentalty of 2 on the skill roll.

I'd have a skill of 11, modified to an 9 for the penalty. I rolled an 8, so it worked.

The way you explained it:
Rolled an 8, add 3, subtract 2. End up with a 9. Same math, but you don't know what the TN is, so you don't know if it worked or not.

One problem with what I suggested is that, as I just found out, you need to tell us the penalty for it to all be in one consolidated form. So you could say "make a gadgetry roll, at -2" for picking a lock, I'd put in [roll]3d6[/roll] TN: 12, and find out then if it worked. For things the player doesn't know will be happening, you'd have to roll yourself. It would require some trust between players and DM, which should be there anyway.

Ok, thanks for explaining it to me. So, as I thought before, in both models ("3d6+mods vs TN, higher is better" and your model), we have:

• A base value. In my model it's TN 10+opponent's skill, or TN 15 for challenging tasks. In your model it's 8.
• Circumstancial difficulty modifier: Given in the tables for different tasks. In your model, it's usually -3...+3 as determined by the GM.
• A modifier. It's the same in both models, i.e. the character's skill ranks (+item bonuses when applicable)
• Random element. It's 3d6 in both models which gives us the same distribution of probabilities.

The GM/system provides the first two elements, and the player provides the latter two elements. In my system the base value and difficulty/circumstances determine the TN (determined by the GM) and the random element + modifier determine the degree of success (rolled by the player). In your version the TN requires input from both the player and the GM (making it harder to act independently) and it also reveals the difficulty level, which is not always desirable.

The bottomline is, I don't see any added value, just a lot of similarities and a few disadvantages. You are probably right about adjusting the granularity of difficulty levels, but that change is really independent of the other suggested changes, i.e. reversing high and low rolls and changing the order in which you calculate the TN. Changing the base value may help some characters, but it affects everyone. If you make things easier by default, characters with poor skill ranks become more useful, but it also becomes even more difficult to challenge highly skilled characters. And vice versa. I want the "average difficulty" to be TN 10 because people are more comfortable with adding something to 10 than 8 or 11. (11 would make sense otherwise - that'd give a 50% chance for an unskilled person to succeed, whether you're using d20 or 3d6.)

If we establish that TN 0 is for everyday tasks you can do without thinking (walking, washing your hands). With 3d6 you cannot fail unless there is some circumstancial penalty such as objects on the ground, darkness, slippery ground, a broken leg or a combination thereof. TN 5 is for easy tasks that even untrained people can do quite reliably, but sometimes accidents happen, e.g. splitting firewood with an axe. (with the current skill set, that'd be a Fighting check, by the way )

Then there are average tasks with TN 10, challenging tasks with TN 15, difficult tasks (TN 20) and so on. A person with 4 ranks is considered to be a fairly skilled person and he has a 50% chance of succeeding on a challenging task. Referring to the chart of probabilities above, the same person has less than a 5% chance of failing an average task and more than a 95% chance of failing a difficult task. Now that might be a problem if you only use multiples of 5 for TNs. So it's advisable for the GM to use all the values from 10 to 20. TN 10...20 should cover 90% of things the players normally do, and TNs above 20 are reserved for really crazy things that even experts (10 skill ranks) only have a 50% chance or worse of success.

Anyway, I want to try it my way first. I'll adjust the TNs a little where necessary. If it's a really horrible decision, we can try something else or go back to d20.

[Yitzi]

Yep 3d6 simulates the bell curve pretty well without changing the average value of 10.5, which means that it's possible to change back and forth without changing much else.

But having your skill level determine the TN and adjusting it a bit based on the difficulty level does exactly the same thing as adding your skill ranks on the roll and adjusting the TN based on difficulty. It's the same math, the same bell curve and same probabilities, just calculated in a slightly different order. The only difference is that you suggested difficulty modifiers of -3...+3 while currently they're often multiples of 5, or 10+skill if you're trying to beat another character at something. It might be a good idea to use smaller modifiers here and there because 3d6 means that modifiers become more important than the actual roll, but otherwise I don't see any real difference besides it being less intuitive to people who are used to "higher is better".

Or am I missing something here???

I'd say better to use the "modifier for skill with fixed TN based on difficulty". It's more intuitive, allows for finer distinctions (is it a particularly hard task, or one where you're working with a penalty for some reason?), and is more familiar to players of D&D (at least 3e and later).

Also, 3d6 slightly less than doubles the importance of modifiers (as compared to the actual roll) as compared to d20.

[Kensen]

Snowfire: I totally forgot to answer your question. I'm sorry you've had to wait. Common soldiers are not allowed to interrupt an officer speaking, but if you wait for a suitable break in the conversation, you can ask "permission to speak, sir/ma'am?"

And there's been a quite long break so go ahead. You can also proxy Old Man Sabre since BarroomBard hasn't been posting in a while. So, you get to decide how to continue the conversation and whether you're trying to get a permission to stay in the castle or go back outside.

MintyNinja: Your character is in Paddy's too, but he doesn't know that the two strangers who just got themselves into trouble are also Rebel agents. If you wish, you can write an introductory post, describing your character's appearance and thoughts about what is happening in the pub, but don't do anything just yet. I want to see how the Rickel and Lydia react first, and I'll send you any info you may need to know in a PM when it's time to step in.

[Kensen]

By the way, each player may individually decide whether you want to continue using d20 or switch to 3d6 now or later. If you start using 3d6, you can't switch back. I'll start using 3d6 on the NPCs' rolls from now on. It may seem a bit chaotic to have two options, but this is a playtest so I don't mind.

[Kensen]

I've been preparing a big surprise for all of you. Can't say what it will be because it wouldn't be a surprise if I did, but I can say that I'm about 70% finished.

[Vixsor Lumin]

im nervous. hahaha

[Eldest]

As am I.10

[Snowfire]

I'm looking forward to it personally

[Kensen]

Well I've actually got three surprises for you.

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I made OOC threads for both groups, see my sig.

Spoiler

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You all earn Trophies (I don't know what you can do with them though).

Laura, BarroomBard, and SnowFire: "Now you've got the layout, but how's it gonna play out?"
MintyNinja, Yitzi and Eldest: "Friends of Rowan"
SamBurke and myself: "King of Awkward"
Vixsor: "ROWAAAAN!"

(Ok, 'twas a joke. )

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And then there's the big surprise but it's not finished yet, sorry.

[SamBurke]

ACHIEVEMENT GET!

At least I can say it was official.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Sweet I got a unique one then again I did earn it by doing something potentially stupid.

[Kensen]

Try if you can open this link: Characters. If it works, it'll be a teaser for the big surprise I mentioned some time ago.

[Snowfire]

You've gone and built a sourcebook, haven't you.

[Kensen]

There are five chapters: Introduction, Characters, Skills, Equipment and Combat. All rules have been updated, rewritten, clarified, expanded and polished.

It's not finished yet, but I'll get it finished by the end of July at the latest.

[MintyNinja]

Nicely done. Looking forward to it.

[Vixsor Lumin]

I can't wait to see a finished product as soon as its done, I'm going to try running a game on these forums

[Kensen]

I can't wait to see a finished product as soon as its done, I'm going to try running a game on these forums

Excellent. Maybe I'll get a chance to try my own game as a player.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Haha well consider yourself as having a "reserved spot" haha I couldn't run the game and not include the mastermind behind it

[Kensen]

Here's a preview of the skills chapter. These pages are, by the way, updated each time I make changes in the source files, so they're always up to date.

Anyway, my vacation begins soon and I'll be going to Iceland on the 30th and coming back on the 9th of July during which time I'll only have sporadic internet access, so there'll be a small break in the playtest. I hope we can get the castle infiltration started before the break, so please check out the latest updates in your group's thread and do something to move the plot ahead.

I've noticed it's not a great idea to split the party, there'll be too much waiting for the people who've finished their part faster. Any future playtest scenarios will be shorter and more straightforward for this reason.

[Laura Eternata]

Here's a preview of the skills chapter. These pages are, by the way, updated each time I make changes in the source files, so they're always up to date.

I'm getting an error 404- Not Found. It might be a problem on this end, but I figured I should say in case it's not.

I've noticed it's not a great idea to split the party, there'll be too much waiting for the people who've finished their part faster. Any future playtest scenarios will be shorter and more straightforward for this reason.

That's for the best. I'm honestly feeling kind of overwhelmed by the number of possibilities in this scenario. It would work fine in person (it could still take a while, but could probably be accomplished in one session), but is simply too much for PbP.

Anyway, my vacation begins soon and I'll be going to Iceland on the 30th and coming back on the 9th of July

Have fun!

[SamBurke]

I'm getting a 404 as well.

[Kensen]

Let's try again: Skills.

EDIT: Seems to work now even when I'm logged off from google. I can publish either one page at a time or the whole document, so only the Skills chapter can be viewed at the moment. (The other chapters are still not complete enough to publish them.)

[Kensen]

My most sincere apologies for keeping both playtesting groups waiting. I figured I'd have more time for gaming and other hobbies in the summer, but it's been quite the opposite. The next two weeks will be less busy, but in early August I'll be traveling again, so it's not a great idea to try to continue the playtest now only to put it on hold again soon.

Next time around I'll probably try some shorter scenarios that are less likely to fall apart when a player or two lose interest or the GM manages to mess up his schedules.

[MintyNinja]

Better luck next time, and be sure to drop me a line if testing for this system.

[SamBurke]

Still around!

Keep us posted.

[Eldest]

Still around as well.

[Yitzi]

Still around as well.

[Snowfire]

As am I. Keep up us to date.