Player feels he's being treated unfairly

[Worira]

Ok, so a duel is just a melee fight.

No, it's a fight between two people, typically with specific rules. Certain duels might allow magic while others might not, but it's not a duel if you're having allies fight for you.

[Darth_Versity]

On the one hand, I really hope this is snark rather than an actual recount of the character sheet.

On the other hand, if this is factual then the problem is more fundamental than the events of the duel would suggest, and much easier to solve.

That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.

I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.



So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

[Aergoth]

I have some questions for most here, not because I want to stir stuff up, I'm a new DM and while I don't have any CE people, I am genuinely curious. So let me understand:

We have a CE Dread Necromancer (not really sure the difference from a normal necromancer but no matter), and we have a plane that the God of, is C/G and it is a battle plane.

A Dread Necromancer is a class from Heroes of Horror, they're a specialized type of spellcaster, with a limited spell list and abilities that focus on raising and controlling various types of undead, culminating in the Dread Necromancer becoming a lich.

We have some Goodie-two-shoes Paladin that is drawn into a duel with the Necromancer and given a day to prepare.

The necromancer uses the power of pain, death, undead, and what not to win his battles. At his core, he's still a wizard, and thus this is his power.

He's not a wizard. See above. The Paladin is, by his code, required to hold his word as binding, in this case. If the paladin agreed that he would not for instance, cast spells, summon his mount or use magical weaponry, as a paladin bound by the code, he would very likely abide by that, because the is how the class works. The alignment merely serves to back up the restrictions of the class in this case.

The Paladin, uses a limited arsenal of cleric spells, but also bolsters the ability to wield weapons and shields and armor. They also come with the ability to shrug off most undead, and heal if needed.

The DM comes in and states, ok you defiled my plane with your unhallow spell and the god crushes him or avatar or whatever.

You're getting into game discussion (players and DMs) as opposed to character discussion (The Necromancer, the Paladin and the Avatar of Kord). The DM did what was appropriate, if as some people have mentioned, a little heavy-handed for an avatar of Kord who found a cheating dread necromancer while walking around the plane. Kord is a deity that while chaotic, believes that combat should be fair, because he feels that this is right. He is also a good deity, so the act of turning a place into a beacon of negative energy is something he might be a little unhappy with. So, the dread necromancer plans to break his agreement with the paladin that the duel is 1 on 1 by bringing in allies. It doesn't matter to Kord that the Dread Necromancer is a class designed to raise undead because classes are game constructs, and Kord is a character. The two are separate. What Kord sees is someone cheating in an honourable duel, so he gives the Dread Necromancer a taste of his own medicine by intervening directly.
[/quote]

So, I have to ask, if he didn't cast unhallow, would you have allowed him to fight he paladin? This is what I want to know for sure. Because in my mind, unless you have some story reason for banning a player for accepting a duel with what in all reality is his arch nemesis, should be nothing to worry about.

The EL scales fairly well, if he would have solo'd the paladin does that mean he kills the paladin, or is the duel to the death? It doesn't say if it is. I assume it is. Assuming doesn't mean much.

So you have a necro manacer who MIGHT have gotten a possible free level, but you make it sound like he wouldn't be earning it.

Is a necro vs paladin completely imbalanced? Did you make an inferior paladin, and are paying for it after someone wants to test it?

The Paladin is a random NPC on a plane where you can fight people to the death and have them get back up again the next day. Arch Nemesis? No. Is he opposed to the Necromancer's as far as alignment? Yes. Is he likely opposed to the ideals of that Necromancer? Quite possibly.

You're trying to cross game and character logic here. It can be done but this is getting a little tangled. On the one hand, the Necromancer is quite probably wasting everyone's time at the table by picking a fight with a random NPC. The first level equivalent of this would be the same Necromancer picking a fight with a first level warrior at the town gates.

I as a DM, would have a hard time swallowing, dropping a GOD on a player, a friend, a gamer, just because they chose a certain action which is perfectly with in the confines of the game. You kill stuff, you get XP.

And yes, that is the game. Within the confines of the game you could also go poke a dragon at first level. The dragon could then eat you, because that is also within the confines of the game. It's a little heavy-handed but there's nothing that says that the DM is going outside of the rules here.

I get it, the DM can do what ever they want, but I'd feel really uncomfortable doing something like that with out a fairly good storyline. Not a oneliner.

There was no story here, the player drove the DM to the fight by calling out the random Paladin into a duel in character, and then procceded to have his character cheat. Or try to. It could have been perfectly in character for him to have cheated. Just like it would have been in character for Kord to put some righteous smack on his ass for doing so, maybe just because he felt like it at the time.

[Tyndmyr]

That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.



If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

Er...he should have probably still lost then.

Did the duel rules explicitly prohibit what the DN did?

As for your last point...not really the case. It's a small finite area on an infinite plane. Unless this happens to be where the god himself lives...it's not an appropriate metaphor. It's a great deal more trivial. Gods have better things to do than for them and their avatars to screw around with every level 11 who casts a spell they don't like.

I mean, if they didn't, why would they bother with paladins and clerics?

[Darth_Versity]

Er...he should have probably still lost then.

Did the duel rules explicitly prohibit what the DN did?

As for your last point...not really the case. It's a small finite area on an infinite plane. Unless this happens to be where the god himself lives...it's not an appropriate metaphor. It's a great deal more trivial. Gods have better things to do than for them and their avatars to screw around with every level 11 who casts a spell they don't like.

I mean, if they didn't, why would they bother with paladins and clerics?

Let me ask you this way then. Your the CEO of a large company. You are walking through the hallway and catch someone smoking even though its not allowed. This man doesn't work for you, but he is on your turf breaking your rules.

Do you
A. Ignore it, peons arn't worth the hassle
B. Walk off, call security and have them find the offender and deal with it
C. Tell him to stop since your already there, your building, your rules

While the rules of the duel didn't disallow it but he wasn't getting smited over the dual. He was being beaten for desecration of a good aligned gods plane.

[killem2]

Thanks guys! that helps alot!

[Snowbluff]

You seem to be under the assumption that just by looking at his character you would know he is a CE Dread Necromancer. Well the paladin could detect evil, but beyond that he had no other knowledge. You can't prepare to fight a chaotic spellcaster when you don't know that your opponent is a chaotic spellcaster.

I was speaking for the DM's perspective for punishment. A Paladin would love to kill a DN just for existing. A duel is great way, since it would avoid harming innocents and wouldn't be consider murder. Besides, even if he wasn't chaotic or evil, wouldn't you expect him to prepare buffs and spells before hand?

On the other hand, that's kind of irrelevant. A paladin can't enter Unhallowed ground anyway. Putting zombies in it do nothing, unless all of them were armed with reach weapons. The DM could of handled any other way than outright killing him, like Kord showing up and saying "Hey! NO dueling here! Only bar fights!", forcing it into a draw, telling the Paladin to leave and cry to Heireniousuosuusuio (or whatever) about it, and leaving the DN without any extra exp, preserving the status quo.

[Tyndmyr]

Let me ask you this way then. Your the CEO of a large company. You are walking through the hallway and catch someone smoking even though its not allowed. This man doesn't work for you, but he is on your turf breaking your rules.

Do you
A. Ignore it, peons arn't worth the hassle
B. Walk off, call security and have them find the offender and deal with it
C. Tell him to stop since your already there, your building, your rules

While the rules of the duel didn't disallow it but he wasn't getting smited over the dual. He was being beaten for desecration of a good aligned gods plane.

As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

[Hiro Protagonest]

As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

But on their personal planes, the avatars are the security. And frankly, gods are pretty good at noticing everything going on in their home, unlike the CEO who isn't aware of what's going on everywhere in his business all at once.

[Darth_Versity]

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

But the question wasn't "Is this a likely thing to happen?" it was "This has happened, what do you do?"

As a god your unlikely to come across a mortal foolish enough to desecrate your plane, but when adventurers are involved I find that unlikely things happen all the time.

[lord_khaine]

I agree with Tyndmyr on this, to start with using a God to deliver a random smackdown to a player is incredibly heavyhandet, and way out of proportions.

And as for the cheating part, where there actualy any agrement forbiding behavior of this sort?
Because cheating is breaking the rules of the game or competition, but if the only rule was that it were a 1 on 1 fight, then i cant see how he could be breaking non-existant rules.

[The Glyphstone]

That comment was genuine. He is playing a lvls 11 DN with 6 ranks of profession: whore.



If he hadn't cast Unhallow then I would have had no problem with the fight, he would have lost as it was a lvl 20 paladin vs a lvl 11 DN.

My thoughts were twofold.
First the fight had no story reason beyond 'i want xp' and the result was a foregone conclusion.
Second, I found it hard to believe that a good aligned god would allow a mortal to defile his home. That's like having someone you dislike in your home. You'll tolerate their presence but if they then piss in your kitchen sink then you kick up a fuss.

I'm missing something. A Lvl11 DN should be losing a fight to a Lvl20 Paladin whether they're fighting in an Unhallow zone or not. At best, he gets the Protection vs. Good effect.

[vitkiraven]

For what it is worth, I feel that the punishment was either just, or very light-handed. I am basing this off of the Unhallow effect, not the duel or what not.
My reasoning is below, if any want to see it.

Spoiler

Show

The Heroic Domain of Ysgard is on the good side of the outer planes. This means that it is under constant threat (if not action) of invasion from the evil aligned planes. I am quite certain that there are Devils constantly looking in on the whole plane, to see if there are any exploitable weaknesses. It is one of Kord's jobs, as a Deific caretaker of this plane, to ensure that this does not happen to the best of his ability. The duel itself is really just par for the course for the plane in question. The Unhallow is the big thing. Being cast, it represents a weakness that those of evil alignment can exploit to attempt an invasion of the realm. That is the main reason why I think that the punishment is, at the minimum, acceptable. Honestly, when your domain is under constant threat of invasion, a seditious element is dealt with immediately and harshly to prevent damage to the domain from said element.
This is also why it had to be an Avatar of Kord, rather than a gaggle of good aligned entities noticing and dog-piling the Dread Necromancer. The action had to be stomped out, fast. The unhallow basically had to never have existed, to prevent other external forces from utilizing it to cause havoc in the realm. Anything less than Kord's intervention brings an amount of uncertainty.
I probably would have done something far worse, maybe kill then transport to the Abyss or even Baator. What the DN got was basically a spanking and told to sit in the corner for a day.

[killem2]

Oh I didn't realize it was a level 20 paladin..

Christ, I'd let the level 11 get waxed. LOL

[Talentless]

As a CEO of a large company, I am highly unlikely to catch someone smoking in an inappropriate place personally.

The most likely enforcement? No smoking signs, and whoever is local that happens to be annoyed.

The CEO isn't the law enforcer in any realistic sense. He's the guy that sets the general policies, sure...but in practice, this sort of situation is never going to rise to the CEO level.

To translate it to your game...clerics and paladins and other minions exist to handle low level stuff. Gods and their avatars deal with the heavy hitters, not every trivial infraction of policy.

Honestly, a better analogy than the CEO would rather be the security guard in front of the video surveillance monitors. The guy who see's everything, including the guy smoking in a no smoking area near some incredibly flamable objects/gas/whatever that could burn the building down.

[Reprimand]

So in a recent game my neutral-evil aligned party ended up on the Heroic Plains of Ysgard. Now this was not my fault as they randomly rolled for another plane while on the Astral Plane.

Now the CE Dread Necromancer player proceeds to piss off a high lvl Paladin npc and challenges him to a duel. I knew his plan in an instant. He wanted to kill the npc in a solo fight to reap the xp. He's done it before.

The paladin agrees to allow him time to prepare for the duel and so they seperate. He then proceeds to cast Unhallow so as to have an advantage when he unleashed his undead from his bag of holding.

I then declared that an avatar of Kord appeared, taking offence that someone would dare try to defile his plane and proceeded to squish the offending necromancer.

Now my player complained that I was picking on him but I simply replied that a good aligned god who would know that killing someone on his plane was not permanant (due to the true ressurection effect) would take a seriously dim view of someone desecrating his landscape and would intervene.

So my question is simple. Was my punishment to harsh, especially considering that all he lost from it was a day in character?

Honestly, yes it was. He is an evil character, he will do evil things, but summoning an avatar of Kord to fight him when a PALADIN a LG character agreed to an honorable duel. The paladin should have expressed discontent with the avatar at the very least since he his lawful and just won because of an outside source. Or even losing his paladin-hood because of that. I assume a lawful god would be most disappointed with his paladin.

I mean why don't you just summon a swarm of tarasks to eat him alive while your at it?

Besides even in the book of exalted deeds it states that while gods are powerful they aren't omniscient and can't see everything at once, how did the avatar know he was there?

Don't just kill off a character to solve your problems it only becomes an arms race. Rule 1 of D&D: have fun. If your characters have to be paranoid about random epic encounters popping out to kill them it's going to turn into 5 hours of poking things with 10ft poles and making no progress and having no fun.

Heck, you could have just ruled that because it is a good aligned plane that unhallow spell didn't function properly and nerfed some of the effects! Or at least the avatar of Kord, a warrior god and thus martial respect, could wait until after the duel was finished to begin killing the party or character as the case may be.

Edit: Keep in mind I am exaggerating on purpose but I don't intend to come across as hostile, I just honestly know what it's like to be the person getting focus fired by epic encounters at level 8 (not that the Necro is level 8) but I digress. Point is he's only going to get mad and try to make a more powerful character to break your game out of spite. Trust me it's how power-gamers work. And the guy who's running a dread necro with an undead horde able to keep track of every thing their doing, most likely a power-gamer.

2nd Edit: whole heartedly have to agree with tyrndmyr, just because it's on his homeplane doesn't mean he instantly knows. As above gods are not omniscient in D&D. that's why they have followers like clerics and angels and crap. I mean was some Avatar just spawn camping there? Lol.

3rd Edit: Death why are you arguing the point? In your first post you asked for opinions and now your arguing against everyone's opinions that you just asked for. If your going to ask for opinions be open minded about it rather than just disagreeing with people who are trying to help you, your game and your players. It's constructive criticism, we're not trying to undermine you we're trying to help you be better at what your doing.

[Darth_Versity]

Honestly, yes it was. He is an evil character, he will do evil things, but summoning an avatar of Kord to fight him when a PALADIN a LG character agreed to an honorable duel. The paladin should have expressed discontent with the avatar at the very least since he his lawful and just won because of an outside source. Or even losing his paladin-hood because of that. I assume a lawful god would be most disappointed with his paladin.

I mean why don't you just summon a swarm of tarasks to eat him alive while your at it?

Besides even in the book of exalted deeds it states that while gods are powerful they aren't omniscient and can't see everything at once, how did the avatar know he was there?

Don't just kill off a character to solve your problems it only becomes an arms race. Rule 1 of D&D: have fun. If your characters have to be paranoid about random epic encounters popping out to kill them it's going to turn into 5 hours of poking things with 10ft poles and making no progress and having no fun.

Heck, you could have just ruled that because it is a good aligned plane that unhallow spell didn't function properly and nerfed some of the effects! Or at least the avatar of Kord, a warrior god and thus martial respect, could wait until after the duel was finished to begin killing the party or character as the case may be.

Edit: Keep in mind I am exaggerating on purpose but I don't intend to come across as hostile, I just honestly know what it's like to be the person getting focus fired by epic encounters at level 8 (not that the Necro is level 8) but I digress. Point is he's only going to get mad and try to make a more powerful character to break your game out of spite. Trust me it's how power-gamers work. And the guy who's running a dread necro with an undead horde able to keep track of every thing their doing, most likely a power-gamer.

Not trying to sound confrontational but have you read anymore than the OP? The paladin was not there as both had gone off to prepare for a day. Kord was not interupting the dual, he was stopping the casting of an unhallow spell (which takes 24 hours) and the death is not permanent as anyone killed on Ysgard gets resurrected at dawn.

The dual was still scheduled to happen the next day (we've actually done the next session and the fight ended up not happening) and even if he was killed again he would get up again the next day. In fact the whole party have died 3 times on the plane so far as they have enjoyed getting involved in mass battles.

[Reprimand]

Couldn't he just cast in during the duel? or is it like a 10 minute casting time?

Also I feel like you didn't read my whole post.

Edit: why would the paladin agree to duel on an unhallowed area. He could simply ask to fight elsewhere if that were the case.

2nd Edit: Shouldn't a 20th level paladin just waxing the floor with a an evil spell caster anyway?

3rd Edit: Ever hear of appropriate CR encounters?

4th Edit: I wasn't trying to sound confrontational either simply trying to make a point and yes I read more than the first post.

[Taelas]

Reprimand, you are completely missing the point.

The paladin didn't know the area was going to be unhallowed.

The paladin might have wiped the floor with the DN, but the duel never happened (though, I believe, for somewhat different reasons), and Kord intervened not because of the duel, but because of the unhallow spell.

It clearly wasn't intended as an encounter. It was intended as a lesson. "Don't **** on the front lawn. The dude owning the place is a DEITY."

[Zale]

. Kord was not interupting the dual, he was stopping the casting of an unhallow spell (which takes 24 hours)

Can't Kord interrupt the casting from a thousand miles away with one of his many free actions per turn?

Why not do that and then delegate. There's tons of celestials around. Does Kord have nothing better to do? I mean with an infinitely large area, there's bound to be something of more pressing importance than one level eleven Dread Necromancer.

So send in the mooks to slaughter him for having the temerity of Unhallowing his home plane.

[lord_khaine]

A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

[Aegis013]

A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

...and everybody gets true res'd at dawn, makes "rocks falls, everybody dies" a whole new game.

[Helldog]

To be honest, I would be more brutal then the DM, mainly because the DN wouldn't lose anything valuable.

[Darth_Versity]

A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

Your not sure why a good aligned god would care that a section of his home plane has been turned into a corrupted area of absolute evil? Wow, I wouldnt want to worship you if you got raised to godhood!

And unhallow isn't a limited duration spell, only the spell effect linked to it is limited.

[Emmerask]

A better question would be why the heck Kord should care about if a small spot on his Infinite plane should get unhallowed for a short while.

Personaly i think its bad gm'ing on the line of "rock falls, everybody dies"

Actions have consequences, establishing this is the mark of a good dm not a bad one.
And the rock falls everyone dies is not a good analogy because that is a completely random act while what happened is a consequence of an action.

Also if I remember correctly these infinite planes are also the home of infinite solars so spotting the culprit is not that far fetched, then Kord would send something that is certain to punish the wrongdoer, it really doesn´t matter what creature is send because it would be likely to deal with him swiftly anyway.

A good analogy would have been
DM: you are in a large cavern deep underground that seems to be supported by only one pillar in the middle...
Player: ...I DISINTEGRATE THE PILLAR!!!
DM: ...Rocks fall everyone dies...

If players do monumental stupid things then monumental stupid things happen to them, any dm who lets such things slip... well I would not play one second under them tbh because a game where actions can´t have negative consequences is pretty boring.

The only thing I can see which could have been handled a bit better is too actually ask the player if he REALLY wants to do that, especially if its a new player but that is all the reaction was okay because in the end it matters very little if a solar or other similarly powerful creature would have mopped the floor with the offender or an avatar of a deity.

[Greyfeld85]

I tend to view the Chaos/Law axis as an adverb that describes how people go about the Good/Evil axis.

Basically, I consider whether the person is good, neutral or evil first. And then, I decide whether that character upholds that value through law, chaos, or some form of neutrality.

Obviously, there are a few exceptions, such as when a LN character cares about upholding the law more than they do about the tenants of right and wrong, but I feel that's because the "neutral" part of the G/E axis is more open to interpretation than its extremes tend to be; afterall, neutrality can describe intentional balance or total apathy, and everything in-between.

But since I think that Good/Evil is far more subjective than Law/Chaos, it makes sense to me that a character's alignment be centered on whether they're a good or evil person, with the axis of law and chaos used as an addendum to describe how they go about holding up their virtues, rather than actual virtues in and of themselves.

[Greyfeld85]

Concerning the OP's question, the player just sounds like a whiner lol.

I don't know if you gave him any hints that something bad would happen (afterall, as intelligent as some players are, it's not unusual to forget things, or completely overlook something that should be completely obvious), but the overall response seems fair to me.

[Darth_Versity]

The only thing I can see which could have been handled a bit better is too actually ask the player if he REALLY wants to do that, especially if its a new player but that is all the reaction was okay because in the end it matters very little if a solar or other similarly powerful creature would have mopped the floor with the offender or an avatar of a deity.

No, we're all seasoned players and I had already babied them with a few things before that and eventually put the rule down that there are no more "idiot" hints and no take backs. They are all adults and can live with the consequences of they're actions.

[EagleWiz]

Personally I wouldn't have had him fight Kord himself, but a few of his more powerful minions, but that's irreverent. . The guy tried to transform an area literally made of goodness into an area of evil. Of course someone would notice and curbstomp him. Ignoring the duel thing entirely, he tried to unhallow part of a plane of good. He should be grateful he got off with a slap on the wrist.

[The Glyphstone]

Couldn't he just cast in during the duel? or is it like a 10 minute casting time?

Also I feel like you didn't read my whole post.

Edit: why would the paladin agree to duel on an unhallowed area. He could simply ask to fight elsewhere if that were the case.

2nd Edit: Shouldn't a 20th level paladin just waxing the floor with a an evil spell caster anyway?

3rd Edit: Ever hear of appropriate CR encounters?

4th Edit: I wasn't trying to sound confrontational either simply trying to make a point and yes I read more than the first post.

Reprimand, you are completely missing the point.

The paladin didn't know the area was going to be unhallowed.

The paladin might have wiped the floor with the DN, but the duel never happened (though, I believe, for somewhat different reasons), and Kord intervened not because of the duel, but because of the unhallow spell.

It clearly wasn't intended as an encounter. It was intended as a lesson. "Don't **** on the front lawn. The dude owning the place is a DEITY."

Not to mention, the OP said the DN deliberately sought this fight out. It wasn't an encounter, it was a "I want to fight that 20th level dude there for major XP!" In this case, it would be awful DMing to say "Ok, you can fight him. Also, he mysteriously loses 1/3 of his paladin abilities for no reason so that he becomes an appropriate fight for you."