Your opinion: Best Classes

[INDYSTAR188]

Ok, so I was talking to a friend of mine earlier about different classes and who is the best at what role. He told me his favorite class of all time was the 4E Druid and I said I could see where you would like them, but they were in no way my optimal class. So I was curious to see what the Playground thought about the argument.

Basically, I'm wondering what your OPINION is as to who is the best Defender, Striker (Ranged and Melee), Controller, and Leader. Please provide a brief example or reason as to why. Thanks for your time and I hope there's some interesting discussion with this!

[Vknight]

Well my personal preference goes like this.

Defender, the fighter for the ability to deal damage before the attack happens. Wardens need to get close, paladins sting like a minion, and battleminds can only hurt you if you can actually do any damage.

Controller, I'd say the wizard no matter what form I love all the abilities a wizard has access to and the pure destructive potential

Striker Ranged, Warlocks they will mess you up and with bloodied boon become teleport spammers.
Striker Melee, Rogue for skill access good damage and the ability to go ranged if needed by the party

Leader, this one depends on the rest of the party make up. But even then that only limits it to if the party needs a super healer or tactical healer. And then I go for a Cleric or Bard. Clerics can nova. Bards can turn the battlefield into shift central on the way down slide street

[Surrealistik]

Wizard/Mage is definitely the best controller. The reason why is the ridiculous amount of excellent support for the class (feat, racial and power) and abusable synergies (Disembodied Hand familiar + implement swapping, Forced movement + Web and other zones, hard control + recurring save penalization, etc).

Best Leader is the Warlord for much the same reasons, and its sheer offensive power; Cleric might edge it out in a party that is light on solid MBAs (again for the same reasons).

Best Striker (ranged) out of the box is the Ranger. Best melee Striker out of the box is the Ranger. The reason is the sheer amount of off-turn, minor and multiattacks, particularly Twin Strike.

Best Defender overall is probably the Fighter due to superior support, synergies (chargecheese/polearm cheese) and powerful/exploitable defender mechanics.

[tcrudisi]

Defender? Fighter due to them having the most support. Battleminds rank second due to being able to bounce around the battlefield hurting people who only think about attacking your allies.

Controller? Wizard due to them having the most support. It's really unfair how soul-crushing those dailies are. I give second to the Druid as their debuffs can be a thing of beauty.

Striker, melee or ranged? Ranger due to them having the most multi-attacks.

Striker, area attacks? The Sorcerer Wizard, partly because of Enlarge Spell. Come on WotC, can't the Sorcerer have nice things too?

Leader? Warlord because of its enabling abilities, but really this depends a lot on the party make-up.

[Surrealistik]

I think it's better to just give up on the Sorcerer and face the fact that the class will always languish in the Wizard's towering shadow.

[Tvtyrant]

I think it's better to just give up on the Sorcerer and face the fact that the class will always languish in the Wizard's towering shadow.

Well, it is in the name. It would be like something being more special snowflake then dragons, or a system built around the assumption that you are not playing primarily in dungeons.

[Kurald Galain]

Defender? Fighter due to them having the most support. Battleminds rank second due to being able to bounce around the battlefield hurting people who only think about attacking your allies.

Controller? Wizard due to them having the most support. It's really unfair how soul-crushing those dailies are. I give second to the Druid as their debuffs can be a thing of beauty.

Striker, melee or ranged? Ranger due to them having the most multi-attacks.

Striker, area attacks? The Sorcerer Wizard, partly because of Enlarge Spell. Come on WotC, can't the Sorcerer have nice things too?

Leader? Warlord because of its enabling abilities, but really this depends a lot on the party make-up.

Basically, this. Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, Warlord. Although for strikers, the rogue and barbarian come close, and the invoker is close to the wizard even i it has a lot fewer options.

[Nu]

Basically, this. Fighter, Wizard, Ranger, Warlord. Although for strikers, the rogue and barbarian come close, and the invoker is close to the wizard even i it has a lot fewer options.

I agree with this too.

[INDYSTAR188]

I think that:

Defender - Fighter, I just recently have seen how devastating the Greatspear fighter can be with Polearm Momentum and Polearm Gamble. Interestingly, I think that Warden is a really solid class so they would be my next favorite.

Striker - I'm going Barbarian for melee. I have witnessed the awesome destructive power in two separate campaigns and it's pretty amazing. For ranged I'm going to go with Ranger, simply because of their DPR and Twin Strike is a crazy power.

Leader - I actually have three here. I am at a three way tie between Bard, Warlord, and Cleric. All have their own awesome abilities and I think this depends heavily on your other PC's classes as to the most effective. My favorite overall is Bard, strictly for flavor.

Controller - I'm gonna have to agree w/the general concensus that Wizard is tops. It seem's to be pretty involved though so I would probably put Wizard at 1a, and for a simpler yet still awesome class I would go with Invoker as 1b and then Druid as my third option here.

[The Reverend]

Controller- Wizard. It is Wizards of the Coast so they would get the best support.

Striker- while the ranger is just awesome at his job and the Nova of the barbarian is great I really like the Avenger. I recently played ina one off large game with almost a dozen people and our Avenger was Highly optimized and was scoring crits all over the place.

Leader - warlord, bard, cleric- all awesome choices all for different reasons

Defender - Fighter may have great support, but warden is my favorite. I've played one several times and I'm always useful, always draw fire, and hold the flanks. In that large game I really shined: played with a fighter and a battlemind and by ourselves we secured a batteline that was almost never breached. Enemies trying to leave my hindering terrain fell prone right at the feet of one of the other two and the fighter would throw enemies into my hindering terrain. Lots of high fives between The Defenders Three.

My favorite fifthman- Iron Soul Monk. Just so handy if you use them right. One game I did more healing than the cleric using item daily and potions. Sense monks dont really have a lot to do on their minor actions giving out potions is a great idea. FoB also sticks enemies down and keeps them from using attack of opp.

[Gillric]

Controller: the wizard/mage and the invoker. No one gives the Invoker any respect but he is just plain mean, level one daily stun anyone?

Defender: Fighter or knight are both great. At higher levels the battlemind and paladin both can get really annoying for the monsters. The warden is probably the toughest of the defenders if all you care about is taking hits and not dieing.

Striker:
Ranged: Ranger by far.
Melee: I would have to go rogue/thief followed by ranger. The ranger has excellent burst or nova damage but in a pure dpr race, the rogue/theif will win in a walk.
As far as being tough or self sufficient, monk, rogue, avenger are great.

Leader: They all have high and low points depending on what kind of leader you want. If you want enableing, go warlord. If you want healing, probably the cleric. Debuffing and Buffing are an entirely different proposition and I don't know which one I would put here.

Saying one class is always better than another doesn't work that well. You have to consider the group comp as well as the play-style of the individual.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, I don't think the Invoker is quite as close to the Wizard as some say. There are so many ways the Wizard can be broken, besides its powers at pretty much every usage level being generally superior (at-will, encounter, daily). As far as optimization is concerned, the Wizard also appears to have the higher ceiling, particularly in Epic.

[DragonBaneDM]

Time for the weird kid to post!!!

I love Wardens long-time. I think that the Polymorphs are wickedly fun, and I've played as them and against them and witnessed the futility in trying to bring them down.

I'm a huge Pacifist Cleric man. It's been my absolute favorite build ever since Divine Power came out, and I'm still constantly looking for ways to tweak it.

Striker's the only one where I'm probably with the rest of you guys, cause my best character's an Archer Ranger, and I'm DMing a budding Stormwarden right now. Barbarian is a really close second for me, though!

There's absolutely no need for me to write an entry for Controller. I actually DO like them though. Wizards have a crap ton of versatility, and I respect the heck out of that!

ALSO BIRTHDAY POST! BWAAAAAAHHHHH!

[Hiro Protagonest]

Defender: Fighter.

Striker ranged: Ranger or warlock.
Striker versatile: Marauder/hunter ranger, rogue.
Striker melee: Barbarian, ranger.

Leader: Warlord, bard, cleric.

Controller: Wizard, invoker.

[Kurald Galain]

Controller: the wizard/mage and the invoker. No one gives the Invoker any respect but he is just plain mean, level one daily stun anyone?

I'll see your stun and raise you a Sleep spell: the original 4E Save Or Lose.

Saying one class is always better than another doesn't work that well. You have to consider the group comp as well as the play-style of the individual.

Well, there's some gray areas, but certain classes are clearly better than others. For example, invoker and binder are obviously not in the same ballpark. Note how threads like these tend to show a strong consensus about which classes are best.

[Surrealistik]

AoE save or lose that is easily saturated with recurring save end penalties, and penalties to that crucial first save.

As L1 dailies go, Sleep is degenerate the moment you get decent save penalizers.

[Nu]

Honestly, I don't think the Invoker is quite as close to the Wizard as some say. There are so many ways the Wizard can be broken, besides its powers at pretty much every usage level being generally superior (at-will, encounter, daily). As far as optimization is concerned, the Wizard also appears to have the higher ceiling, particularly in Epic.

I think the invoker has stronger encounter powers throughout heroic tier. Grasping Shadows is just kinda treading water when you compare to Thunder of Judgment or Lightning's Revelation (with Wrathvoker riders). Rain of Blood is pretty clearly far and away better than the Wizard options at level 7 as well.

Daily powers I'll give you to the Wizard, but the Invoker's got some good ones too.

Epic I'll give you, but considering that the Invoker has close blast dominate as an encounter power for its capstone I don't think they fall too far behind.

[Surrealistik]

I think the invoker has stronger encounter powers throughout heroic tier. Grasping Shadows is just kinda treading water when you compare to Thunder of Judgment or Lightning's Revelation (with Wrathvoker riders). Rain of Blood is pretty clearly far and away better than the Wizard options at level 7 as well.

Daily powers I'll give you to the Wizard, but the Invoker's got some good ones too.

Epic I'll give you, but considering that the Invoker has close blast dominate as an encounter power for its capstone I don't think they fall too far behind.

Grasping Shadows with Enlarge Spell is at least competitive. In conjunction with forced movement (Beguiling Strands/Thunderwave/Hypnosis, etc) which permits damage ping-ponging and a double dip of slow it definitely beats ToJ and LR out. Psychic typing and the fact that it targets Will also works in its favour (Crystal Orb, Resplendent Gloves).

L3: Hypnotic Pattern, Maze of Mirrors and Colour Spray. Nuff said.

L7: Twist of Space is competitive with Rain of Blood post Enlarge. Will targeting + teleport 3 and slowing in an area burst 2? Phantom Foes is competitive, especially with save penalizers.

As for Epic, yeah, Compel Action is pretty damn good, but Steal Time is stun as a free action essentially.

[Nu]

Grasping Shadows with Enlarge Spell is at least competitive. In conjunction with forced movement (Beguiling Strands/Thunderwave/Hypnosis, etc) which permits damage ping-ponging and a double dip of slow it definitely beats ToJ and LR out. Psychic typing and the fact that it targets Will also works in its favour (Crystal Orb, Resplendent Gloves).

L3: Hypnotic Pattern, Maze of Mirrors and Colour Spray. Nuff said.

L7: Twist of Space is competitive with Rain of Blood post Enlarge. Will targeting + teleport 3 and slowing in an area burst 2? Phantom Foes is competitive, especially with save penalizers.

As for Epic, yeah, Compel Action is pretty damn good, but Steal Time is stun as a free action essentially.

It's a different of opinion, I suppose. I admit the level 3 wizard powers are pretty good, but I think the level 1 invoker powers Lightning's Revelation and Thunder of Judgment are both more generally useful and overall stronger than even the level 3 Wizard powers. And considering you can just take another level 1 power at level 3...

Dead is the best status effect you can render upon an enemy, and Rain of Blood makes things die. I have to give it the edge over Twist of Space, which is more situational in use. All you need for powers like Lightning's Revelation and Rain of Blood to work is focus fire, which is generally accepted as optimal strategy anyway.

Invokers get a some help in epic with the Invoked Devastation feat (finally catching up to Enlarge Spell), but I do admit that Steal Time is probably better than any Invoker power of the tier. Compel Action can be situationally more useful, but you really need to catch like 3 enemies to make it work.

[Surrealistik]

The thing that makes the Wizard powers competitive or superior is the fact that it's mass hard control and action denial. While the Invoker is great at accelerating beat down and facilitating focus fire, the Wizard excels at preventing Team Monster from achieving anything while the PCs get free hits in.

In Heroic, melee only enemies are common as dirt. This means that Grasping Shadows, Twist of Space, Phantom Foes and Hypnotic Pattern for example, all have excellent potential to act as a mass pseudo stun. Maze of Mirrors is effectively an area burst 1 stun in most cases. The moment you effectively deny a mob its ability to meaningfully act, you have almost certainly outperformed equivalent Invoker options.

[Skyserpent]

As far as flavor goes, I think the Rogue has it best.

Other classes have better mechanical options or tactical whatnot, but Rogues just FEEL really cool. They're no slouch in combat but their skill spread along with their really interesting powers are great. Their utilities run a really odd spread of utilitarian to goofy. They have a great spread of odd effects ranging from Really great battlefield control to straight up Knock-Out.

Mechanically they're solid, nothing crazy, but in the manner of sheer PLAY I think Rogues are king.




As a side-note Warlocks are awesome for the same reason. Rending Fear of Khirad will solve so many problems. But they're sort of stuck on that "rawr scary" theme. Rogues have more variety.

[The Reverend]

Next 4e game I want to play an upperclass bemonocled and bowler hatted adventurer(rogue class). I think it would fit well.

[Dimers]

My best Defender is battlemind. I prefer a lot of control with my defense, and the battlemind's got that built right into powers without even taking weapon-specific feats. I particularly like the "why are you hitting yourself" stuff. I also expect longer combats than many posters here, so having a variety of at-wills is nice.

For Leaders, I think Wisdom clerics get the best powers, but their defenses are poor. Bards get a lot of special arcane-only tricks. I don't have as much fun with warlords (and I think the class name is dumb -- they're more like sergeants), but I recognize that they're quite powerful. I have yet to see an ardent played and I don't see any big way to make them shine. I'd really like to test-drive an Artificer. If runepriest ever got any support then that could be great too -- it's the most strikery leader.

Ranger is excellent out-of-the-box for ranged or melee against single targets; no need to look further. But against multiple targets, or for goals in addition to handing out damage, almost all strikers are great. Avenger has reliability. Barbarian has durability and some crazy-big damage occasionally. Rogue's got tricks in and out of combat plus plentiful damage, with some melee/ranged/area flex. Warlock protects itself best. Monk is great against minions and can be wherever it needs to be. Sorcerers and wizards can rack up great damage totals against groups. Strikers are much less equivalent to each other than leaders are, but they're almost as equal.

Wizards' support puts them at the top of the heap for possible power. The fact that they make a guest appearance in another role's list ... I like the psion better than druid or invoker, though. More flexible, better special abilities to combine with other classes.

[Meta]

I think the answer is pretty dependent on where one sets the power level. I'll give to examples to highlight what I mean (as of 2 months ago):

High OP with Skilled Players against a wide variety of threats:
Defender - Battlemind because of Brutal Barrage associated abuse plus a solid chassis
Striker - Avenger because you can cherry pick the powers you'd like (Avenger's weakness) and Oath of Enmity is one of the best class features in the game. Plus a few great feats.
Leader - Warlord because dead is the best status effect and no other class in the game generates it more and quicker than the Warlord (assuming 5 man party)
Controller - Wizard because it has more support than any other DnD class.

Moderate OP with New, but Intelligent players against a wide variety of threats:
Defender - Fighter because it can be built and played well in more ways than possibly any other class.
Striker - Ranged Ranger starts as one of the simplest classes in the game and tops out at only moderately challenging making it the best
Leader - Cleric because it heals hp and removes status effects better than pretty much anyone, which leads to forgiving, but still intense play.
Controller - Druid because you're extremely versatile. It's hard to get yourself into a bad situation that can't be solved with turning into a melee combat machine, OR summoning tentacle death, OR dropping a host of status effects.

Therefore, by one interpretation, your friend is completely right. It depends on where you set the goalposts in my opinion.

[Surrealistik]

I don't think a single, extremely specific cheesebuild really counts in the case of the Battlemind for the purposes of defining an overall 'best' even at high OP. I can kind of agree with Avenger at high OP though.

[WickerNipple]

I have yet to see an ardent played and I don't see any big way to make them shine.

There isn't much in the game shinier than Unnatural Mantle.

[Dimers]

There isn't much in the game shinier than Unnatural Mantle.

Whuzzat? Is that a feat, an ACF? ... I don't see it in Psi Power or PHB3, and I still haven't paid for DDI.

[tcrudisi]

Because I like this topic, I'll answer a second time. This time, my definition of "best class" will be "the most fun class".

Defender: Battlemind. Especially from level 7 on, the Battlemind is just amazingly fun and strategic. You'll be able to use your immediate action every round and suddenly no enemy is out of range for your punishment.

Leader: I've always fancied the Bard, but that was before I tried out the Runepriest. The Runepriest, once again, gets options they ahve to decide between every single round. Not only do they have to decide upon which power to use, but suddenly each power has two options for benefits. Double the decisions, double the fun!

Striker: The Sorcerer. This hippy class likes to spread the love around. Their bursts and blasts often spread the love equally to allies and enemies. And oh, what love it is. 1d4+572 damage. Goodness, I hope he rolls a 1. It's not so boring as to pick one target and Twin Strike him into oblivion. It's not easy mode like picking party-friendly bursts and using Enlarge Spell on it. Nope, the Sorc has it tough. It requires you to work with your allies and know how to position your bursts for maximum effectiveness. I like that.

Controller: The Druid does it for me. Yeah, it's not the best controller. I admit that. But for sheer versatility? Nothing beats it. Melee, range, bursts and blasts ... it does it all and it does it well. It can always multi-attack, something that I enjoy. It's abilities can be utterly devastating. Thorn Spray can give a ridiculous penalty to all of a monsters defenses, ensuring that the monster won't survive the round. You always have choices between whether its better to be a melee or ranged character, and every round. Basically: this class is fun because of its versatility.

Unnatural Mantle is a feat that does something funky like letting your allies not go unconscious temporarily. I don't remember the specifics and I'm too lazy to look it up.

[Kurald Galain]

Because I like this topic, I'll answer a second time. This time, my definition of "best class" will be "the most fun class".

That's a nice idea, I'll do the same

Defender: fighter. Here's why: an enemy wins initiative and runs towards the party wizard. Whoops, he passes me, so I get an OA, hit, and stop his movement. Frustrated, the monster decides to slash at the nearby rogue instead. Whoops, since I just hit him, he's marked and I get to whack him again. Add a reach weapon to throw everyone prone when you hit them for even more fun.

Striker: I don't generally play strikers, but I'm fond of rogues, as well as warlocks. The latter because of the nasty status effects they can pile up on anything, and the former because of all its little tricks and of the challenge of getting your sneak attack in every turn (actually this has gotten way too easy with recent splats).

Leader: the sentinel druid, mostly because it's a better pet class than the beastmaster ranger. Some day I'll make a "zoo build" throwing in a shaman spirit, familiar, summon spell, and free ally from your theme.

Controller: wizard, still. It has so many ways to mess up the DM's strategy that it's not even funny. Wait, no, that's actually pretty funny.

[Surrealistik]

Wizards are easily the most entertaining controller in the game (and I've played pretty much all of them) due to all the various aoe/single target hard control/forced movement effects that allow you to basically dictate the combat.

Battlemind is definitely the most fun Defender; Forceful Reversal, Concussion Spike, Lightning Rush and the like all make it so.

Warlord is probably the most entertaining Leader; love the incredible synergies it's capable of in the right party.

As for strikers, either Cunning Sneak sniper Rogue, or Centred Breath Monk. CS snipers are incredibly versatile and utilitarian both in and out of combat, while the CB Monk's combination of flavour, AoE striking, mobility and forced movement makes it a lot of fun.