Do Weapon Enhancement Bonuses Matter?

[wayfare]

A friend of mine contends that weapon enhancement bonuses dont matter in 4e -- he believes that they are only useful for adding crit damage. How do folks feel about this idea?

[Zaq]

So he's saying that he'd be happy with a +1 weapon at level 18? For the most part, I'd disagree. The baseline math assumes that you've got weapons that are basically within one "plus" of an at-level weapon. A difference of one "plus" doesn't make that big of a difference (using a +2 when the standard is +3, for instance), but should still generally be avoided when possible. Too far beyond that, though, and the game math gets weird.

[MeeposFire]

He is absolutely wrong. The game is based around you having a certain enhancement bonus to your attacks at certain level ranges. If you are one away you are fine. Two away that isn't good. More than that and it can really start messing with the math especially if you are not optimizing hit rate. If a DM does not want to hand out magic weapons (or armor/neck slot) then consider using the inherent bonuses found in the darksun book. It takes over for magic weapons (if you wield a magic weapon then you use the bonus that is larger).

In fact I bet the math would show that you can probably eek out more damage via the extra plus one to hit than the extra crit dice.

[Dimers]

Your friend is welcome to his opinion, but a character built on that principle would require consistent good luck to perform as well as one built with the conventional wisdom. And it's not like there's some downside to having good weapons, so ... ?

[MeeposFire]

Just to give an idea of how little standard crit bonus damage is let us use an example of using the best die and comparing some figures.

a level 30 character will have a crit of 6d12 which averages 39 damage. Now you do this once every 20 rolls on average so roughly you are dealing 5% of that on a standard character. That is about 2 damage per damage roll (taken over time). Now take your damage roll at that level. Is your damage at level 30 greater than 40 damage? It should be in general so that means that a 5% change in attack accuracy can change your overall damage over time more than the crit dice itself. By the way I am just comparing a +1 not the +6 that I should be comparing which would change damage over time by 60%.

Now of course things can change with optimization but in general the +1 is more powerful than your crit dice.

[Mando Knight]

A friend of mine contends that weapon enhancement bonuses dont matter in 4e -- he believes that they are only useful for adding crit damage. How do folks feel about this idea?

Here's what you do. Have him make any high-level character, but with only the 100 gp starting cash. Let's say... level 30. Then compare that with any monster he could reasonably expect to fight... like maybe an Ancient Red Dragon.

Actually, let's do that right now. Paladin, basically the standard for good AC. Start him off with Plate and Heavy Shield for armor and a Longsword for his weapon, and no feats spent towards math fixes. Assume 26 Str and Cha, and 12 Dex or Int, for now. Without any defensive enhancements, he'll have 35 AC, 29 Ref, and 34 Fort and Will. Without any weapon enhancements, he'll have a +26 to hit. The original version of the Ancient Red? Has 48 AC, and +37 to hit with its melee attacks. We don't even need to roll, the Red just wins.

[wayfare]

Thanks for the input!

Out of curiosity, would there be a big shift in play if I got rid of the standard crit system and went with something like this:

1) A critical hit functions like the High Crit weapon effect: at Heroic +1 die of damage, +2 dice at paragon, and +3 dice at epic.

2) The high crit function maximizes damage on a hit.

[Dimers]

Out of curiosity, would there be a big shift in play if I got rid of the standard crit system and went with something like this:

1) A critical hit functions like the High Crit weapon effect: at Heroic +1 die of damage, +2 dice at paragon, and +3 dice at epic.

2) The high crit function maximizes damage on a hit.

Assuming you actually mean "on a crit" for #2 ...

Some enchantments would change in value a lot -- the ones that have extra effects on a crit would be relatively better, and the +Xd12 enchantments would lose all their charm.

Combats would run a bit longer on average. That (slightly) favors classes with good at-wills or powers that last for a whole encounter.

Resist-all would be slightly more valuable too. Slightly.

Critfishing builds would only ever use high-crit, large-die-type weapons. Take Daggermaster, for example -- all those crits you'd roll would give you +2d4 or +3d4, rather than somewhere between +3d6 and +6d12, depending on level. Axe builds (and therefore Str+Con builds in general) would be a little stronger because it only takes one feat to make any axe high-crit.

I don't think such a change would unbalance anything, but I don't think it'd make the game better either.

[Kiero]

They matter, but they're also pretty boring in and of themselves. Which is precisely why I prefer to use Inherent Bonuses and avoid the 3.x-styled Christmas tree/golf bag effect of forever needing better +n items.

[Kurald Galain]

A friend of mine contends that weapon enhancement bonuses dont matter in 4e -- he believes that they are only useful for adding crit damage.

Well, that's clearly incorrect. Obviously a 70% chance to hit is better than a 65% chance to hit.

However, depending on your build, an (e.g.) +3 weapon with a specific property that you like may be better than a random +4 weapon.

[Yakk]

If you want a quick and dirty low-magic 4e without the "fake magic items" of the inherent bonus system...

Attacks: Your base attack bonus is level+3. On top of this you can gain the following bonuses (and only these bonuses)

Weapon Proficiency

An enhancement bonus of +1 if you have a tier-appropriate magic item or better (so a heroic tier magic weapon gives a +1 bonus to hit at heroic, but nothing at paragon).

A +1 feat bonus (capped). Any feat that gives more than a +1 feat bonus to attacks is reduced to a +1 bonus.

Superior Implement bonuses to hit.

Untyped bonuses from feats.

You do not gain any to-hit bonuses from your attributes. You are assumed to be competent at hitting with the powers you gain. Attribute bonuses to damage remain.

Non-AC Defence
Your non-AC defences are 1/2 level plus the highest of your two attribute bonuses.

On top of this, you gain the following bonuses:

A +2/+4 bonus at level 11 and 21.

A +1 enhancement bonus from having a tier-appropriate magic necklace.

A +1 item bonus to Reflex from having a tier-appropriate magic boots.
A +1 item bonus to Will from having a tier-appropriate magic helm.
A +1 item bonus to Fortitude from having a tier-appropriate magic belt.

Items that already grant item bonuses to the above instead grant a flat +2 item bonus if tier-appropriate, or +1 if not.

You gain one bonus feat that grants a feat bonus to your non-AC defences at level 5, 15 and 25.

AC:
Shields still grant a +1 or +2 bonus to AC (depending on size).

If you are wearing either tier-appropriate magic armor or a tier-appropriate magic shield, you gain a +1 enhancement bonus to your AC. (You don't get +2 from both).

If you are proficient in heavy armor you are wearing, you gain a +1 bonus to AC per level instead of +1/2 level.

If you are proficient in light armor you are wearing, you gain a +2 and +4 bonus to AC at level 11 and 21. Feat bonuses to your reflex defence also apply to your AC when wearing light armor, and stack with feat bonuses to your AC. (note that feats that grant non-feat bonuses, like shield bonuses or untyped ones, to reflex do not grant a bonus to AC)

Feat and item bonuses to AC remain unchanged.

Weapon Critical:
On a crit, you deal an extra [W] per tier. High crit weapons deal 2[W] per tier. Some magical weapons make this extra damage elemental.

Weapons that have a 1d12 crit die instead add a "high crit" property to the weapon.

Implement Critical:
Implements have an elemental affinity. Non-magical implements have a single element affinity. Heroic tier magic implements have two elemental affinities, paragon three, and epic four.

When you do a critical hit with an implement, you deal one extra die of damage per tier. Non-magical implements critical die is 1d8, Heroic tier magical is 1d10, Paragon tier magical is 1d12, and Epic is 1d12B2. The damage type from the critical is any or all of the elemental affinities of the implement.

Damage
Once per round per target, you get a bonus to damage rolls equal to your level. If you hit 5 targets, you get the bonus on each target -- but if you hit a target 3 times, you only get it on one of the hits. This bonus resets at the start of your turn.

Item bonuses to damage are removed, as are enhancement bonuses to damage. Feat/power/untyped bonuses to damage are left unchanged.

---

I think the above would give you a system without the cludgy "inherent bonus" system, in which picking up a tier-appropriate magic item would be cool.

Level 30 characters have basically unchanged defences and attacks off the baseline game, but when reduced to using non-magical armor and weapons, they lose 1-2 points of all attacks and defences instead of 6-12 points.

[tbarrie]

A friend of mine contends that weapon enhancement bonuses dont matter in 4e -- he believes that they are only useful for adding crit damage. How do folks feel about this idea?

Is he using the inherent bonuses option?

[wayfare]

Is he using the inherent bonuses option?

No. How do the inherent bonuses work? Is it like vow of poverty from 3.5?

[MeeposFire]

No. How do the inherent bonuses work? Is it like vow of poverty from 3.5?

Yes and no. Yes because it gives you bonuses for free but no because you can still use magic items.

Inherent bonuses are bonuses, that do not stack with enhancement bonuses, that you gain as you level. For instance at level 4 you would have a +1 inherent bonus to attacks, damage, fort/will/ref, AC, and +1d6 crit damage. If that 4th level character found a +2 weapon in his travels he could choose to use the bonuses from the weapon or his inherent bonuses (they do not stack). The bonuses tend to be given at a rate of one level behind the standard magic weapon/armor/neck slot item or something like that.

This system is near required in campaigns like Dark Sun where magic weapons are rare so these allow the game math to work without magic weapons. As you can see the game designers thought magic weapon bonuses important enough to create a system for people that did not want to use magic items.

[Felhammer]

Inherent bonuses are static math fixers your character receives at pre-determined levels. These Math fixers simulate the bonuses acquired from obtaining Magic items but increase at a slightly slower rate.

Inherent Bonuses were created for the system Dark Sun but are of great value for any low magic setting/campaign.

[MeeposFire]

Inherent bonuses are static math fixers your character receives at pre-determined levels. These Math fixers simulate the bonuses acquired from obtaining Magic items but increase at a slightly slower rate.

Inherent Bonuses were created for the system Dark Sun but are of great value for any low magic setting/campaign.

They were actually first created before DS in the DMG 2 but otherwise you are correct. I love that system and use it all the time.