Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[RockmanDotEXE]

and there I thought that once you got the girl you'd done all the captivating you needed to do

You might be right!
Like I said, I'm not sure if I'm even doing anything wrong and I'm just panicking for no reason. In which case I'd feel like a danged fool, really.

[Kalmageddon]

Little bit of a rant here, but I hope it is helpful, that is my intent.

Spoiler

Show

Well, firstly your problem is self-selecting. You've clearly been meeting girls that have more interest in a fun, short-term relationship, regardless of what they claim, because that's what you've been giving them and that's what they've been enjoying. If you haven't had the experience of trying to woo a woman who is truly interested in a deeper emotional connection and sees right through your insincere tripe, it's probably because they see you coming and want nothing to do with you. So don't fool yourself into thinking that you've dated every kind of woman on the planet, you haven't. You've dated the ones that like what you have to offer.

Now, there are going to be plenty of women who want what you have to offer. Lots of guys do exactly what you're doing without any self conciousness, and have plenty of success with women. Just like there are lots of guys who want a fun, sexy, no care for the future relationship with a woman who is charming and attractive and they don't really care if she's that emotionally avaliable because they don't truly care for her that much either and want a fun joyride, not a long term relationship, there are just as many women who want the same thing. Don't be surprised that by offering that service, you're attracting the people who want it. You can go through your entire life having vapid fling after vapid fling, at least until you age and the polish wears of your practised charm.

Now when you tell me that this isn't true, and you've dated girls that said they truly wanted commitment and a long-lasting relationship, but then settled for your short-term fun anyway, well, surprise, people don't always know what they want. And they don't always know what they're going to get. And not everyone can see through your polished veneer on the first try. If you haven't dated only girls who know exactly what you are and are okay with it, then you've also hoodwinked women who truly thought they could have a future with you. Maybe they saw the way you were acting and thought they could change you, maybe they didn't see through you until you were already seeing each other, and they stayed with you through inertia. Maybe they really didn't know what they wanted and they took you because it was better than nothing.

But there's nothing wrong with love, or your ability to participate in it. You've simply become a practised pickup artist, and you've discovered that if you're smooth and charming women will want to be with you. Good job, you figured it out. That's a good way to get people to want to hang out with you, and to sleep with you. But all of these relationships have ended (Did you get bored of them? Did they get bored of you? Did the less perceptive of them finally realize you weren't what they hoped you were?), and you're complaining about your ability to have a meaningful emotional relationship with someone because you aren't trying hard enough? Well, guess what, you aren't trying hard enough. Maybe you've never had the experience to compare it with, but it doesn't sound like your flings have a real, solid foundation of mutual trust and respect, or emotional openness or honesty. You're taking the easy road, and it's getting you what it's getting you. If that's all you want, enjoy it and stop fretting. if you want more than that, recognize that the problem is merely that you need to stop being a shallow, insincere jerk.

Romance and meaningful relationships are not simply a cover for shallow lust. I say this without hesitation or reservation. But short term flings are, often, a cover for shallow lust. So before you go decrying the nature of romantic relationships themselves, why don't you try one if that's what you want? And yes, that does involve not being a jerk, and actually caring about the girl your with. And yes, it does make a difference. You're just measuring your success by the wrong metircs.

While I ponder about what you wrote, might I ask why are you calling me insincere and shallow?

About the insincere part, have you missed the parts in my previous posts where I say that I always say what I have in mind honestly and never give false expectations to girls? I even wrote that I never say "I love you" to a girl, becuse I know it wouldn't be true, since I don't believe in love anymore.
Or for that matter, what about me writing my uncensored and unfiltered point of view for everyone to read?

About the shallow part... Would I even think about there being an issue with taking away romanticism from relationships if I was shallow? Would I feel bad about that? Would I question the way I handle my private life and seek advice?
Also, this might be because I haven't gone into much detail about my life, but there was a time (like, 2 years back ) when I was less cynical and more into the whole "love" thing, so I'm not talking without personal experience from both worlds, the cynical one and the romantic one.

Now you do make one valid point when you say that not everyone knows what they want, but I don't think I'm some sort of magnet for such kind of women, many of them were (and still are) very intelligent and deep and have my complete respect even if we're not togheter anymore.

You might be right!
Like I said, I'm not sure if I'm even doing anything wrong and I'm just panicking for no reason. In which case I'd feel like a danged fool, really.

Yeah, don't dig your own grave man, if you think there's a problem with your relatioship try to fix it without talking about it to your partner, actions speak louder then words.

[Starwulf]

I mean, when one of my friends has a girlfriend he is with her constantly, he makes her part of his life, he sees her almost every day and holds her in high regard.
I just can't bring myself to do that... To me, my girlfriend has her own life, her own friends and her own spaces just like I have mine. I don't want to see her every day, I would be fine with even once a week if it was memorable. And I don't really see my girlfriend as more important then my friends or my own life, she's just a person with whom I share intimacy and all that good stuff, why would this entitle her to some kind of special status? Of course I have some degree of fondness for her, but... It's not special or unique. There have been others before her and there will be more after, probably not even that far in the future.

I'm probably just disillusioned and I have to just live with it, I'd just like to see this as an option and not the only way to make things work smoothly.

So does that mean you never plan on getting married? Like, ever? Because you have to be willing to make your girlfriend the center of your life/universe in order to get married. Once you're married, your spouse is the other half of you, they are needed to complete you. Or at least, that's how I've always seen it, and it's how anyone that's married that I know also see it. If you can't be willing to put your spouse ahead of everyone else, then you're unlikely to have a successful marriage. Hell, I put my wife ahead of my best friend, whom I've known since I was 4 and he was 5(so 26 years for us this May 15th), I've only known my wife since I was 19(So 11 years), and my best friend has even saved my life before. I don't see anything particularly wrong or odd about that, it's perfectly natural.

[Kalmageddon]

So does that mean you never plan on getting married? Like, ever? Because you have to be willing to make your girlfriend the center of your life/universe in order to get married. Once you're married, your spouse is the other half of you, they are needed to complete you. Or at least, that's how I've always seen it, and it's how anyone that's married that I know also see it.

Well, marriage itself is not an appealing idea to me, so no, I don't plan on getting married, ever.
What I see myself able to consider, even if at the moment I don't, is cultivating a long term relationship, building a family, having kids and so on. But I think it's just the idea of family that I like, being that mine broke into pieces when I was very young, because at the same time I could never imagine a woman with whom I would like to share my life.
The closest I could go to this would be finding a really good female friend, having kids with her and growing them togheter, while having each their own separate private lives outside of our family. Yeah I don't see it working outside of the theoretical world...

You talk about needing someone to complete you, but the more I think about it the more I see myself as a complete being who is perfectly fine being alone deep inside. Now don't get me wrong, I love company, friends, girls, strangers even. But when I think, when I listen to my inner workings, I don't expect to hear someone else beside me. Am I making sense?

[Ceric]

Ok, you are right, that's totally not helping!

<snip>

I'm sorry, I'm sorry! I knew before I posted it that it wouldn't be much of a comfort. But I wanted to, at the least, share that part that we "enjoy it too". That girls aren't necessarily self-destructive and going after you for nothing but heartbreak.

Sounds like a lot of those girls don't know what they want. Or they think/hope you don't know what you want and that they might be able to turn your supposedly short-term relationship into a long-term one.

Of course, maybe I'm too sure that I know what I want. I've never had a long-term relationship and so I'm a bit disillusioned about those of the people around me, especially the firsts. A friend recently posted on FB about his 5th year anniversary with his first and only girlfriend (he's also her first and only boyfriend) and I still have a hard time believing they'll actually stay together for the rest of their lives >.>

Therefore I have no experience worth mentioning and no right to suggest any sort of relationship advice But, as GAThraawn said, maybe try your different techniques to get different girls? Girls looking for short-term relationships are probably easier to find and, well, easier to pick up just because they're less likely than long-term-relationship girls to already be in a relationship. But I'm sure there's girls looking for nice guys and long-term relationships too.

On a side note, how does one "make the move"?

On the topic of women only wanting fun and not actual relationships, it's actually kind of insulting to me. It's saying, "You're not the guy I want to spend my most fun years with. Someone else gets to have me then. You can have me when I'm older and after I've had my fun, because I'm not going to have fun with you." Especially if they ever, ever cry about there being "no good guys around".

Er, the personal decisions I make aren't a judgement on every other guy in the world. And it's not like I'm thinking "I'm going to hook up with a different guy every other week until I've finished having fun, and then I'll go find and marry some boring but nice and hopefully moderately-well-off guy and I'll never have fun again". I'm not seeking fun in lieu of a real relationship. But a real relationship would have to be exceptionally, incredibly ideal for it to work right now, because I have a lot of schoolwork and other stuff going on and I don't want to deal with the time and emotional effort a relationship would take. If something came up, sure, I'd take it and maybe we'll stay together and get married and live happily ever after. But for where I am right now, I doubt that'll happen.

Furthermore, I see no problem with a guy being fed up with that type of woman. If he's looking to actually commit then why should he be expected to wait around for some girl until she's done having fun? Why not go with the girl who wants to have fun with him in the first place?

I don't see a problem either. I'd never tell someone to wait for me. We want different things, we go get different things.

[Kalmageddon]

I'm sorry, I'm sorry! I knew before I posted it that it wouldn't be much of a comfort. But I wanted to, at the least, share that part that we "enjoy it too". That girls aren't necessarily self-destructive and going after you for nothing but heartbreak.

Sounds like a lot of those girls don't know what they want. Or they think/hope you don't know what you want and that they might be able to turn your supposedly short-term relationship into a long-term one.

Of course, maybe I'm too sure that I know what I want. I've never had a long-term relationship and so I'm a bit disillusioned about those of the people around me, especially the firsts. A friend recently posted on FB about his 5th year anniversary with his first and only girlfriend (he's also her first and only boyfriend) and I still have a hard time believing they'll actually stay together for the rest of their lives >.>

Therefore I have no experience worth mentioning and no right to suggest any sort of relationship advice But, as GAThraawn said, maybe try your different techniques to get different girls? Girls looking for short-term relationships are probably easier to find and, well, easier to pick up just because they're less likely than long-term-relationship girls to already be in a relationship. But I'm sure there's girls looking for nice guys and long-term relationships too.

Sounds like you and me are on the same boat...
About how I pick up girls... I don't really have a technique per se, I just try to be myself and do what I feel like doing, changing this would make me feel uncomfortable, like I'm pretending to be different from what I am.
But I stand by what I previously said, I don't think I attract a specific kind of women, mostly because I am the one who makes the first move, so if anything I may be attracted by a specific kind of woman, but that kind of woman would be girls with a strong personality, a bit on the anti-conformist side, that feel comfortable with their sexuality. Possibly geeky and with a passion for movies and/or books. Tinted redheads for bonus points.
Of course sometimes I just settle for a cute girl that just wants to have some fun, but those are not the ones that leave a mark on me, so to speak.

[GAThraawn]

While I ponder about what you wrote, might I ask why are you calling me insincere and shallow?

I'm sorry if I came across as rude, I didn't mean to, nor did I intend to call you names. You're right that it's a little hard to discuss without knowing more about your relationships, which isn't information you need to share. I guess I'm a little confused as to what exactly it is that you want. You seem to be saying that you are having successful short-term relationships with women, but you are dissatisfied with the fact that you are maintaining them with very little effort. Is that fair? You also seem to say that you don't want a long-term commitment, so that's not the issue. You complain about the lack of romantiscism in your relationship, I guess I might need a better defenition of what you feel is lacking.

Because to me right now, it kind of reads like you're saying "I'm not putting much effort into maintaining these relationships, nor am I going out of my way to form a close emotional bond with my current partner. And my issues with this are that it requires too little effort and there isn't a close enough emotional bond." Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding, because I do want to offer my help. It's just sometimes difficult to communicate such complicated issues over the internet.

Also, you said that the women you were with were intelligent and deep and held your respect, which I at no point will contradict. But you have to agree that if you are successfully keeping such a woman happy in a short term relationship, either she wants a short term relationship, or she isn't sure what she wants, or is hoping to change you (Even intelligent and deep people can be unsure what they're doing in a relationship). If she is competent and knows exactly what she wants and doesn't want to be placated by you being charming but a jerk in a short term relationship, then she won't be.

[Kalmageddon]

snip

Don't worry, I see where you're coming from on this one.
Well, my problem in a nutshell is this: I like the idea of romanticism, but I find myself better off when I am more egotistical. What I would like to see is a genuine need of romanticism from girls, but they seem to be perfecly happy with me being a jerk that has fun with them, denies them his love and commitment and just leaves them when he gets bored or too many problems arise.
Why they seem to be fine? Because they never leave me, they never take any action to show me that I'm doing them wrong, like deniyng me intimacy or... Anything really! It probably doesn't help that my favourite way of ending an argument is sex (it gets awkward when I argue with a male... Kidding! ) and it works wonders, all that anger and frustration has to go somewhere!

Ok this wasn't really a nutshell... Basically... I want to be proved wrong, I want love and romanticism to be real things that I need in order to have a relationship, instead of useless tags that complicate things, but girls seem to prefer my way of seeing things... And that's why I can't take a relationship "seriously", because girls don't make me feel like I need to really put myself into it in order to get what I want, so I just get bored and move on.

This discussion is really helping me to see things from every angle, I think I'm getting close to a solution here...

[dehro]

I may be misinterpreting things here...
I must say it does look a bit like you want your bread buttered on both sides.
complaining about the lack of romanticism as a driving force/prominent feature in your interaction with partners "because they don't want the romance, apparently, since I'm treatingg them like crap yet they stay put" does fly a bit in the face of the fact that you don't want, for now, those interactions to be long term.
if what you're mostly looking for is physical, or friendship between people who are very much their own thing ("friends with benefits" comes to mind, albeit possibly a term that doesn't quite fit).. then you're going to have to accept that that's exactly what you'll be getting.
people who are ok with such an arrangement, in my experience don't bother much about romanticism, niceties and making the other person the center of their life.... which is a big part of what being romantic and/or long term is all about (otherwise it's pretty much an empty gesture)....in fact they tend to use you if they see that's what you're doing and they're fine with it.
they certainly wouldn't waste a search in romanticism on you if you don't seem to be interested that way. why they keep falling for you anyway?..who knows? maybe you're just that good looking, or maybe the word has spread that you're good in the sack..or maybe they appreciate your wit and are liberated enough to show their appreciation in interesting ways.
complaining that you're not seeing in them a need for romance and an effort at figuring out you consider them a comodity when you're the first to say outright that you'd rather the pair of you stay each at their place, with your own friends and social lives, not being in any way co-dependent...
meh... when a woman has put her romance-hat on, which is an unsightly pink and fluffy thing, she's usually not thinking about something short term..or maybe she's thinking that, but secretly hoping for more. it seems to me you make it pretty clear you're not ready or available for more..so why should they invest in romanticism if you're giving them pretty much a cold shoulder? if they can't un-glue the romance hat they'll move on to someone else..if they can or don0t mind fooling around a bit, more power to you...just don't expect them to keep standing by you when you're past your sell by date in terms of whatever it is you're providing them with.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other.. I'm just saying you get as much as you give, whether you like it or not...and it goes both ways

[Glass Mouse]

Kalmageddon: I have two questions for you.

1) Why are you a jerk? You say you don't lie, don't cheat, and you treat girls "decently". What in your behaviour warrants such name-calling?

2) What is romanticism to you?

[GAThraawn]

Well, my problem in a nutshell is this: I like the idea of romanticism, but I find myself better off when I am more egotistical.

No, you don't. You get friendship and casual sex when you are egotistical. If that's what you want, stop complaining. If you want a romance, with someone you can be close to, you have to put in more effort. A romance isn't going to appear because the girl you're with makes it happen. It's going to appear because you make it happen (well, both of you really, but that's my point). If you don't treat your lover with respect, care and compassion, they are not going to create a romance with you.

There are two issues here: 1) You send signals that you're a carefree guy looking for casual relationships, and that's what you keep getting into, and then you complain that that's what you keep getting. Your situation is not in spite of your actions ("I act like a jerk, but girls keep being in sexual relationships devoid of any deep romance and lasting connection with me anyway"), it's because of your actions ("I act like a jerk, and keep attracting the kind of girls that want sexual relationships devoid of any deep romance and lastings connections")
2) You expect the shift from casual sex to meaningful romance to be one that has to be initiated by the other party expressing displeasure. You're basically complaining that nobody has whipped you into shape by telling you you aren't being good enough, in spite of the fact that you basically seem to be acting worse and worse to see if anyone will correct you. No offense intended, but that's basically what small children do. They misbehave and misbehave until someone sets boundaries for them by saying "No". You haven't had any boundaries set for you by anyone saying "No, you aren't acting good enough, be a better person". But you know that you feel dissatisfied. It's no longer anyone else's responsability to discipline you, you need to take yourself in hand and start treating the people you date better.

If you start a relationship off with mutual respect and communication, openness and honesty, rather than simply being "charming" and "egotistical", you may find yourself willing to actually work through "getting bored or having too many problems arise", which is the crux of the difference between a relationship with real romance and a short-term casual sex relationship.

[Grinner]

And it's not like I'm thinking "I'm going to hook up with a different guy every other week until I've finished having fun, and then I'll go find and marry some boring but nice and hopefully moderately-well-off guy and I'll never have fun again".

Ceric, I don't wish to sound rude, but whenever a person takes an action, they also symbolically pass judgement on something. It's inevitable.

In this case, every time you go with Mr. Fun over Mr. Nice, you are saying just that. And you know what? I don't blame you. The mindset of the archetypal Nice Guy does not lend itself well to youthful indiscretion, and expecting you to suffer through that is unfair to you.

Just remember that when you get older and older, the clock will start ticking louder and louder until you hit menopause, and you'll need a Mr. Reliable. Chances are, that's not going to be Mr. Fun.

[Vella_Malachite]

So does that mean you never plan on getting married? Like, ever? Because you have to be willing to make your girlfriend the center of your life/universe in order to get married. Once you're married, your spouse is the other half of you, they are needed to complete you. Or at least, that's how I've always seen it, and it's how anyone that's married that I know also see it. If you can't be willing to put your spouse ahead of everyone else, then you're unlikely to have a successful marriage. Hell, I put my wife ahead of my best friend, whom I've known since I was 4 and he was 5(so 26 years for us this May 15th), I've only known my wife since I was 19(So 11 years), and my best friend has even saved my life before. I don't see anything particularly wrong or odd about that, it's perfectly natural.

In addition to this, keep in mind that "deep emotional connection" may not necessarily mean that you put the person above and beyond all else. I know that I wouldn't want to be put above and beyond a guy's best friends should we get into a relationship. Having a life outside your SO is often a good thing. I know there are friends in my life that an SO would be on par with, but probably never be more important than, hormones be darned.

Of course, if your relationship is working when you do that, there's nothing wrong with that and more power to you and your wife. I'm just saying that your spouse might "complete you", but the idea that you must be absolutely joined at the hip, never put them second to another concern and all that doesn't work for everyone.

Just remember that when you get older and older, the clock will start ticking louder and louder until you hit menopause, and you'll need a Mr. Reliable. Chances are, that's not going to be Mr. Fun.

Sorry? This post sounds a lot like you're saying that women must get married (and/or procreate) before they hit menopause, or Bad Things will happen to them, which is in no way true. I understand if this is not the impression you intended to give (this is the Internet, after all). Oh, and no reason why Mr. Reliable can't be a fun person, too. Maybe not fun in the same ways, but reliable people aren't all career-driven sticks in the mud.

[Grinner]

Sorry? This post sounds a lot like you're saying that women must get married (and/or procreate) before they hit menopause, or Bad Things will happen to them, which is in no way true. I understand if this is not the impression you intended to give (this is the Internet, after all). Oh, and no reason why Mr. Reliable can't be a fun person, too. Maybe not fun in the same ways, but reliable people aren't all career-driven sticks in the mud.

I understand why you say that, but I said nothing of marriage. In fact, I'd say raising a child is easier without the burden of marriage. Regardless, a biological imperative towards procreation does exist. It can be channeled towards other things or otherwise ignored, but it exists nonetheless.

I agree that Mr. Reliable can also be fun (and should be!). It just takes time for Mr. Nice to grow into himself, and in that time period, he suffers loneliness dearly. Nice Guys, despite their patience, are people too.

[Coidzor]

I suppose one could have meaningless sycophants and the weak-minded when one is consistently egotistical rather than someone who has give and take in their relationships, but I wouldn't exactly peg those as quality friendships worth bothering to mention.

I mean, maybe there's some grossly different definitions/forms of egotistical behavior floating around, but that seems at least slightly unlikely.

[DeadManSleeping]

@Kal: I think I figured out your issue.

Love isn't a chip you play in for bargaining. It's not something you exchange for something else. It's simply a way you feel. You do not "give" love to have sex, or to have meaningful conversations, or whatever. Those are all their own things.

When two people feel love towards each other, then, yes, they are "in love" and all the happy and sex tend to start flowing. But those are things that people do anyway. If people want to have sex, they can have sex.

Kal, if you want to find a loving relationship, then stop thinking of relationships as ways to get things. Those things you want are things you don't get with love. Find love for love's sake, because that's all it's for.

[Ceric]

Ceric, I don't wish to sound rude, but whenever a person takes an action, they also symbolically pass judgement on something. It's inevitable.

Okay, technically every action I take is a decision among some infinite number of choices I could be making in my life and thus a judgement that I consider some choices better or worse than others. And, uh, I'm sorry that other people consider that a personal affront?

In this case, every time you go with Mr. Fun over Mr. Nice, you are saying just that. And you know what? I don't blame you. The mindset of the archetypal Nice Guy does not lend itself well to youthful indiscretion, and expecting you to suffer through that is unfair to you.

Just remember that when you get older and older, the clock will start ticking louder and louder until you hit menopause, and you'll need a Mr. Reliable. Chances are, that's not going to be Mr. Fun.

I understand why you say that, but I said nothing of marriage. In fact, I'd say raising a child is easier without the burden of marriage. Regardless, a biological imperative towards procreation does exist. It can be channeled towards other things or otherwise ignored, but it exists nonetheless.

I think what I'm seeing here is that, ultimately, I'm looking for a Mr. Right to settle down, raise a family, and live happily ever after with. To this end, any person I have a relationship with who isn't Mr. Right is, by definition, Mr. Wrong. Dating Mr. Wrong instead of Mr. Right isn't something that I'm to be blamed for, since it's an effect of my youth and inexperience rather than a conscious fault, but it isn't particularly a good thing either.

And frankly there's not much of an argument to make for either side. I do a lot of introspection and I personally don't think I'll ever "need" a Mr. Right in that imperative sense, you obviously disagree, I think I know myself well enough to be at least moderately sure, but that darn youthful inexperience of mine isn't a very strong argument So I'll take it as it comes, I guess.

I agree that Mr. Reliable can also be fun (and should be!). It just takes time for Mr. Nice to grow into himself, and in that time period, he suffers loneliness dearly. Nice Guys, despite their patience, are people too.

Um. Cool. By the way, I'll never turn down a guy for being too nice. If I like a guy, whether he fits into your "fun" or "nice" or "reliable" categories, then he's got as much of a chance as anyone else. If I don't like a guy, whether or not they're nice, I'm not going into a relationship I don't want just for their sake.

[Triscuitable]

Um. Cool. By the way, I'll never turn down a guy for being too nice. If I like a guy, whether he fits into your "fun" or "nice" or "reliable" categories, then he's got as much of a chance as anyone else. If I don't like a guy, whether or not they're nice, I'm not going into a relationship I don't want just for their sake.

I think what he's trying to say is "give a man time to introduce himself into your life, while you introduce yourself into his." He doesn't mean "don't turn down a guy for being too nice."

Of course, that's up to how you interpret the words. If anything, Scot should be the guy confirming my thoughts.

EDIT: And of course, I should have realized that this had to do with post-metapause (what IS that? ) marriage. Figures I'd have no experience.

[Grinner]

And frankly there's not much of an argument to make for either side. I do a lot of introspection and I personally don't think I'll ever "need" a Mr. Right in that imperative sense, you obviously disagree, I think I know myself well enough to be at least moderately sure, but that darn youthful inexperience of mine isn't a very strong argument So I'll take it as it comes, I guess.

Well, assuming you go for motherhood, I've heard that being a single parent sucks.

Edit:

I think what he's trying to say is "give a man time to introduce himself into your life, while you introduce yourself into his." He doesn't mean "don't turn down a guy for being too nice."

Yeah, that's the idea. I had to be terribly assertive with a girl the first time I got a date. It felt unnatural, but fortunately, she understood what I was trying to say well enough.

EDIT: And of course, I should have realized that this had to do with post-metapause (what IS that? ) marriage. Figures I'd have no experience.

You're speaking of menopause. It's when a woman's ovaries stop producing viable eggs.

It has little to do with marriage.

[Triscuitable]

Yeah, that's the idea. I had to be terribly assertive with a girl the first time I got a date. It felt unnatural, but fortunately, she understood what I was trying to say well enough.

I really hope I never have to do that. It sounds painful . Even I can't really treat a person badly, unless they're trying to get me angry.

Also, looked up what a menopause is, and it sounds like a massive scar on a woman's psyche. I can't imagine what that'd be like. Similar to a midlife crisis, maybe?

[Grinner]

Also, looked up what a menopause is, and it sounds like a massive scar on a woman's psyche. I can't imagine what that'd be like. Similar to a midlife crisis, maybe?

According to my high school psychology textbook, pretty much.

[Coidzor]

There is something to be said for how gracefully one ages, so it doesn't have to be all bad.

Though it is one of those things that reminds a fair number of people of mortality, and there's not yet been a human to survive getting old.

[Kalmageddon]

Kalmageddon: I have two questions for you.

1) Why are you a jerk? You say you don't lie, don't cheat, and you treat girls "decently". What in your behaviour warrants such name-calling?

2) What is romanticism to you?

1) Mostly because I'm clearly dominant in a relatioship, I never worry about her feelings and I don't even pretend to be commited to the relationship, nor I pretend to love her or considering her above my own interests. Lastly, if my passion for her fades or she starts creating too many problems I usually just leave her without much of a thought. Basically we are both using eachoter for our own pleasure and amusement and I make no effort to conceal it from her or from myself.
Am I honest? Sure. But this attitude tends to qualify me as a jerk in the eyes of a lot of people.

2) This is a tougher one to answer... I guess it's the idea of having that one special someone that makes you care for him/her more then yourself. But I noticed that most girls like a man that can make them feel good while still considering them below his own egotistical interests. Maybe it's because acting like this makes a man look stronger in the eyes of a woman, I have no idea.

What I do know is that I'd love to find a relationship where I can care for a woman more then I care for myself and know that she does the same, but in reality I have no reason to do so because women like the way I handle things right now.

Basically love is a fairytale, one I would really like to be true, but in reality I know that a relationship works because of what we get from our partner, there is nothing special about it and as soon as you don't get what you want from your partner you have no real reasons to stay with him/her.
There is no such thing as staying togheter because you "love" eachoter. You can lust eachother, sure, you can be captivated by one's personality (and this again brings lust), but there is no deeper reason behind it.
If you still have a sex life, would you stay with a girl or men that gives you everything you could ask for, love, care, stability, understanding... But not good sex or the consistent desire to have sex with him/her? I'd say no.
Because then he/she would just be a friend right?
So love = sex in real life...
Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.
At least this is what I get from my own experience, and the experience of others I've been able to observe.

[Skeppio]

Hey guys and gals, and everything in between.

So there's this girl at Uni who I like. We seem to get along pretty well, and she added me on Facebook, so I guess she's happy enough to have me around. So that's all well and good, at least I know she doesn't dislike me.

Think is, I really like her. It is even remotely possible to know if someone will reciprocate without asking them? Sometimes I wish I could read thoughts or see into the future. I know that must sound like a dumb question, but I'm woefully incompetent at this.

Would it be worth asking her out if I have doubts that it'll go well? I mean, something in my mind tells me that it won't, and knowing my mental state, I won't handle rejection well. But if I wait, it's all but a guarantee that someone else will go ahead and ask. And no doubt they'll succeed without any issue, just my luck.

Also, before anyone mentions "there's more fish in the sea" in my position, it's closer to a mostly-dried up lake than an ocean.

[bhtooefr]

I would say that if you're in a mental state such that you won't handle rejection well, it might be best to wait until you are in a better state. (And don't just wait for that state to be better, actively work to improve it, even if that means therapy.)

Otherwise, you'll put way too much weight on MUST NOT FAIL, which looks horribly unconfident and even needy, which increases the chance of failure. Let's just say I've been there way too many times.

[dehro]

It is even remotely possible to know if someone will reciprocate without asking them?

unless you happen to listen in on a conversation between her and someone else and she's talking about you, or she happens to drop her diary in your lap, the answer is no, only in the movies.
IRL this only happens to people who work on it..a.k.a. stalkers.

Would it be worth asking her out if I have doubts that it'll go well?

are you suicidal? in that case you're probably doing her a favour by staying away from her. in any other circumstance, you're young enough to overcome rejection eventually.
getting there might hurt, but guess what? that's life. if you know the outcome to every social interaction beforehand, what's the point in having them at all?
likewise, eventually you'll get old enough to regret every stupid decision or chance not taken of your life. why add this one to the list?
also, there's always the possibility she might say yes. in fact you've got better odds at her saying yes if you ask her than if you don't.

Also, before anyone mentions "there's more fish in the sea" in my position, it's closer to a mostly-dried up lake than an ocean.

bullcrap. there's 7 billion of us out there..you ain't that special.

and I say this as a guy with very little if any social life and therefore about 0 chance of finding a partner, right now.

general advice: do you know her enough for her not to be taken off guard by you dropping the "I like you loads" in conversation? if you guys are barely on hanging out and exchanging facebook status terms, maybe it's worth doing more stuff together or just getting to know her (and let her know you) a bit more, before you try to commit. depending on what you're looking for in her, my suggestion would be to take it slow and don't rush things.

[Skeppio]

I would say that if you're in a mental state such that you won't handle rejection well, it might be best to wait until you are in a better state. (And don't just wait for that state to be better, actively work to improve it, even if that means therapy.)

I've been in therapy for well over half a year. Hasn't helped that state at all.

Otherwise, you'll put way too much weight on MUST NOT FAIL, which looks horribly unconfident and even needy, which increases the chance of failure. Let's just say I've been there way too many times.

Confidence didn't exactly lead to a better outcome either.

unless you happen to listen in on a conversation between her and someone else and she's talking about you, or she happens to drop her diary in your lap, the answer is no, only in the movies.
IRL this only happens to people who work on it..a.k.a. stalkers.

Greeeeaaaaaatttt, just my luck.

are you suicidal? in that case you're probably doing her a favour by staying away from her. in any other circumstance, you're young enough to overcome rejection eventually.

Yes, I am, and unlikely to ever be free of it. And I'm still hurt from the last time I got rejected. It resulted in the girl despising me and having a whole group of mutual friends turn against me. That was "fun".

getting there might hurt, but guess what? that's life. if you know the outcome to every social interaction beforehand, what's the point in having them at all?

Having success once in a while sounds nice. I'd much rather know the right answer to every decision than live in a world where I almost always make the worst possible choice.

likewise, eventually you'll get old enough to regret every stupid decision or chance not taken of your life. why add this one to the list?
also, there's always the possibility she might say yes. in fact you've got better odds at her saying yes if you ask her than if you don't.

I already regret every stupid decision I make. If I wasn't such a screw-up, I wouldn't made so many.

bullcrap. there's 7 billion of us out there..you ain't that special.

and I say this as a guy with very little if any social life and therefore about 0 chance of finding a partner, right now.

Now you're assuming I'll meet even a tiny portion of that 7 billion, and that any of them would want me.

general advice: do you know her enough for her not to be taken off guard by you dropping the "I like you loads" in conversation? if you guys are barely on hanging out and exchanging facebook status terms, maybe it's worth doing more stuff together or just getting to know her (and let her know you) a bit more, before you try to commit. depending on what you're looking for in her, my suggestion would be to take it slow and don't rush things.

Probably not. I guess I have little choice but to hang out longer, increasing the chances of someone else getting her. It's a nasty Catch-22, really.

[Sholos]

I've been in therapy for well over half a year. Hasn't helped that state at all.

Confidence didn't exactly lead to a better outcome either.

Greeeeaaaaaatttt, just my luck.

Yes, I am, and unlikely to ever be free of it. And I'm still hurt from the last time I got rejected. It resulted in the girl despising me and having a whole group of mutual friends turn against me. That was "fun".

Having success once in a while sounds nice. I'd much rather know the right answer to every decision than live in a world where I almost always make the worst possible choice.

I already regret every stupid decision I make. If I wasn't such a screw-up, I wouldn't made so many.

Now you're assuming I'll meet even a tiny portion of that 7 billion, and that any of them would want me.

Probably not. I guess I have little choice but to hang out longer, increasing the chances of someone else getting her. It's a nasty Catch-22, really.

Hey, are you me from an alternate future? I know exactly how you feel with the screwing up. I've had plenty of times where I was convinced that the fact that I screw up a lot meant that I was some sort of idiot who would never have anything good happen. I got rejected by a few people that I really wanted to go out with, and have had to deal with a girl I like dating another guy for well over a year now. Also like you, I'm practically hopeless http://www.giantitp.com/forums/when it comes to hanging out with and meeting new girls, and I at one point pretty much figured that if I didn't meet someone at college I was going to be alone the rest of my life. So I get where you're coming from, really I do.

My point in this is that you just have to keep on going. I started up a profile on OKCupid and several months later (during the middle of which I had kind of stopped caring about it because my personality is stupid and likes instant results, probably why I'm a horrible angler) I've got a third date with a girl lined up. So, maybe try something like that. If you're random conversation skills are subpar (like mine are), you could try hanging out on a random chat site like Omegle (you do get really nice conversations every once in a while). I've also started having lunch more frequently with people, but I've got a Uni meal plan, so I don't know if that applies to you or not.

Anyways, hang in there. I'm not going to say that you will definitely meet someone, but if you keep trying the odds are decent. Meanwhile keep going to therapy. I know it helped me a little (not as much as I'd have liked, but that's another story). And half a year isn't that long from what I've experienced. I was in therapy for a good 5 months and we barely progressed past "tell me what you're feeling" (which was a horrible question for me because I rarely know what I'm feeling or how to describe it). So sometimes it can take a while to get anywhere.

[Astrella]

I understand why you say that, but I said nothing of marriage. In fact, I'd say raising a child is easier without the burden of marriage. Regardless, a biological imperative towards procreation does exist. It can be channeled towards other things or otherwise ignored, but it exists nonetheless.

I agree that Mr. Reliable can also be fun (and should be!). It just takes time for Mr. Nice to grow into himself, and in that time period, he suffers loneliness dearly. Nice Guys, despite their patience, are people too.

But not everyone wants children; not everyone wants life-long relationships; what about them? The "normative" experience isn't something for everyone; even if society pushes it.

[Grinner]

But not everyone wants children; not everyone wants life-long relationships; what about them? The "normative" experience isn't something for everyone; even if society pushes it.

I understand why you say that, but I said nothing of marriage. In fact, I'd say raising a child is easier without the burden of marriage. Regardless, a biological imperative towards procreation does exist. It can be channeled towards other things or otherwise ignored, but it exists nonetheless.

I'm not contesting that. A typical life is for typical people.