Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[thubby]

Really? All the souls absorbed/eaten by Barragan got purified when he got aged into nothingness? And Vastolord hollows are supposed to be above captain class, so who purifies them?

we don't know what happens when a soul dies of mundane causes. (baragan essentially died of old age, after all)

and those super hollow get killed by something eventually.

[Tvtyrant]

I am betting we get to see what a quincies Bankai looks like now. Should be exciting.

[MammonAzrael]

we've seen behind the scenes at the science division. they would have no reason to react as alarmed as they did if this balance wasn't important.

and what would you expect for proof? spreadsheets and graphs don't make for good shonen.

As a Quincy, I would want corroborating evidence from an unbiased third party.

Imagine this: Aizen just pulled his big coup and leaves for Hueco Mundo. He then sends a message to SS basically saying, "Hey guys! You should let me be absolute ruler of everything, it's really for the best. If you don't believe me, well here is a bunch of research done by my most loyal henchmen that totally proves it! See, completely legit!"

Since we haven't seen firsthand who SS originally approached the Quincy in the hopes of explaining the unbalance they were causing, we can only extrapolate based on the dealings we have seen from SS. And what we've seen is supreme arrogance, swift violence, and blind stubbornness. We haven't seen thoughtful diplomacy or gentle understanding or willing cooperation. So chances are that whatever SS did communicate to the Quincy was so pompous, insulting, and condescending that the Quincy had little reason to believe it. After all, the group existed because of the incompetence of SS in the first place!

Now for me personally, I'd be shocked if the unbalancing reason offered by SS is false. That is for meta reasons, not because of any inherent trust I have in SS. I just don't see that as a plot twist Kubo would pull. But from a Quincy perspective, the SS's argument sounds like a lot of BS, and I'm sure the whole genocide thing doesn't help matters.

[thubby]

As a Quincy, I would want corroborating evidence from an unbiased third party.

such as...?

Imagine this: Aizen just pulled his big coup and leaves for Hueco Mundo. He then sends a message to SS basically saying, "Hey guys! You should let me be absolute ruler of everything, it's really for the best. If you don't believe me, well here is a bunch of research done by my most loyal henchmen that totally proves it! See, completely legit!"

and ss would analyze the data, realize he was crazy, then kill him. that's the cool thing about science, it works.

[MammonAzrael]

such as...?

No idea. There may in fact not be any other group, as I wouldn't put it past SS to have eliminated any possibly competition. But that isn't the point. The point is that SS simply isn't trustworthy enough to take their claims at face value. And if you present me with an argument and I don't believe you or your data, it's not my responsibility to find a third party to verify, it's yours.

and ss would analyze the data, realize he was crazy, then kill him. that's the cool thing about science, it works.

You keep mentioning data. Where is this data? When is it shown that this data has been collected, processed, and analyzed? What issue of the manga is this shown or told by a trustworthy, or any, source? Beyond that, where has it been said that SS offered this data to the Quincy, so they could draw their own conclusions? Given what we've seen of SS diplomacy, I rather doubt they were that transparent.

In fact, all we've heard of SS's argument to the Quicny is "Let us deal with it." I don't recall anywhere where the SS was portrayed as trying to help the Quincy understand the why of things. Ishida's grandfather is the only Quincy I know of that believed that the old Quincy made a mistake in not listening to SS, and even the way that is presented isn't "They should have studying the data more carefully and acted upon it in a manner similar to what SS recommended," but rather "They should have blindly accepted SS's word about how things were."

[thubby]

No idea. There may in fact not be any other group, as I wouldn't put it past SS to have eliminated any possibly competition. But that isn't the point. The point is that SS simply isn't trustworthy enough to take their claims at face value. And if you present me with an argument and I don't believe you or your data, it's not my responsibility to find a third party to verify, it's yours.

You keep mentioning data. Where is this data? When is it shown that this data has been collected, processed, and analyzed? What issue of the manga is this shown or told by a trustworthy, or any, source? Beyond that, where has it been said that SS offered this data to the Quincy, so they could draw their own conclusions? Given what we've seen of SS diplomacy, I rather doubt they were that transparent.

the data the R&D guys are clearly reacting to, what, last chapter? maybe the one before.
you're asking for scientific proof from a narrative.

i would consider mayuri reliable on factual data for our purposes. but more importantly we have a group of what should be knowledgeable characters that keep saying it's true, with no denial coming from anyone when there are at least a few who would do so if they could. the author clearly means for these things to be true.

[HandofShadows]

As a Quincy, I would want corroborating evidence from an unbiased third party.

Well, we already have had a Quincy say that the SS's info is accurate. You know way back when when Uryu was a new character?

[MammonAzrael]

the data the R&D guys are clearly reacting to, what, last chapter? maybe the one before.
you're asking for scientific proof from a narrative.

Ok, so it sounds like they do have much data and monitoring on soul balancing. Do you honestly believe that SS in general and the Sceince division specifically would willingly and freely hand out this data and allow the Quincy to draw their own conclusions? Instead of just telling them to obey?

i would consider mayuri reliable on factual data for our purposes. but more importantly we have a group of what should be knowledgeable characters that keep saying it's true, with no denial coming from anyone when there are at least a few who would do so if they could. the author clearly means for these things to be true.

Oh, I believe that it's true. The argument I'm presenting is from the perspective of the Quincies. For them, the war and their cause is completely just. They have no reasons to believe SS or it's claims. If you were a Quincy, would you trust Mayuri, or anyone who served under the man the ordered the eradication of your people?

Well, we already have had a Quincy say that the SS's info is accurate. You know way back when when Uryu was a new character?

Not quite. What Uryu's grandfather said was that thought the Quincy were wrong in not listening to SS. Not because of any information or conclusions or persuasion. He believed the Quincy were wrong not to listen because a lot of people died as a result. In fact whether or not he believed the SS's claim about soul-balance was never even addressed.

[thubby]

Oh, I believe that it's true. The argument I'm presenting is from the perspective of the Quincies. For them, the war and their cause is completely just. They have no reasons to believe SS or it's claims. If you were a Quincy, would you trust Mayuri, or anyone who served under the man the ordered the eradication of your people?

if it's objectively true the quincy should be able to study it themselves. their high caliber weapons indicate they clearly have an exceptional knowledge of spirit-science stuff

[Infernally Clay]

if it's objectively true the quincy should be able to study it themselves. their high caliber weapons indicate they clearly have an exceptional knowledge of spirit-science stuff

Well, it's worth noting that you're talking about 19th century human beings. Even if their skill as Quincy was exceptional, they wouldn't have had much understanding of science. More than that, we must remember that Quincy only used their power to protect other humans. Even then, they only killed normal Hollows. I doubt they often took on Hollows more powerful than, say, Grand Fisher.

Yet that is entirely the problem... It sounds like the Quincy spent centuries refusing to accept negotiations with the Shinigami. It sounds like they never cared about, or believed in the idea of, the balance of souls. Like they only sought to protect humans - their "just cause". Which is why it devolved into multiple wars over the 800 years, as Kajomaru explained.

While it's kind of obvious that Soul Society was a place of pretentious jerks until Ichigo knocked some sense into them, the Quincy don't exactly sound humble either. Remember Uryu's "Tell Aizen a Quincy has come!" thing? Yeah, look how that turned out.

[thubby]

Well, it's worth noting that you're talking about 19th century human beings. Even if their skill as Quincy was exceptional, they wouldn't have had much understanding of science. More than that, we must remember that Quincy only used their power to protect other humans. Even then, they only killed normal Hollows. I doubt they often took on Hollows more powerful than, say, Grand Fisher..

19th century humans that could manufacture weapons capable of obliterating captains in open combat.
we've seen how unimpressive quincy are on their own, it's their gear that makes them dangerous. while there's still skill required, it's ultimately quincy science running the show.

[jindra34]

19th century humans that could manufacture weapons capable of obliterating captains in open combat.

Yeah I'm not seeing this. Cannons, muskets and such don't exactly seem like the would be very successful against any ranked shinigami much less captains (Kenpachi excluded because he would just take it to the face to show that he could.) That would be about the tech level of 200 years ago. Battlefield explosives (things which I might expect to hurt shinigami in the blast area) were pretty much implemented in WW1.

[thubby]

Yeah I'm not seeing this. Cannons, muskets and such don't exactly seem like the would be very successful against any ranked shinigami much less captains (Kenpachi excluded because he would just take it to the face to show that he could.) That would be about the tech level of 200 years ago. Battlefield explosives (things which I might expect to hurt shinigami in the blast area) were pretty much implemented in WW1.

what are you talking about?

uryu's sanrei glove was an antique and he used it to blow mayuri in half. granted it was a pyrrhic victory, but the point remains. THAT was the level of spirit-technology the quincy could understand and manufacture back then.

[HandofShadows]

I think the problem thubby is that you said 19th century *humans*. Not 19th Century Quincy.

[jindra34]

I think the problem thubby is that you said 19th century *humans*. Not 19th Century Quincy.

More specifically that he mentioned plain humans, then quincy, then quincy science. Doing things like that can imply compounding logic, (plain humans can make weapons dangerous to shinigami, Quincy can be dangerous to shinigami, therefore Quincy science is very dangerous to shinigami).

[Anteros]

Just my .02 but I thought what Thubby was implying was fairly clear judging from the flow of the conversation. Someone else had referred to them as "humans" first, he was just replying in kind. I can see where if you take the comment by itself how it can be confusing, but in the context of the conversation it makes perfect sense.

[Drolyt]

Just my .02 but I thought what Thubby was implying was fairly clear judging from the flow of the conversation. Someone else had referred to them as "humans" first, he was just replying in kind. I can see where if you take the comment by itself how it can be confusing, but in the context of the conversation it makes perfect sense.

I don't know, I read it just like Jindra34 at first, but then I thought to myself, "this doesn't make any sense", and only then did I realize he meant Quincies specifically. Then I saw Jindra34's post and laughed at myself a little.

[thubby]

good to know im so enigmatic. maybe i should take up fortune telling.

anyway yes, i was referring to quincy as humans because Infernally Clay had said they were 19th century humans to try illustrating their technological capabilities.

my counter point was that they made things like the sanrei glove which could kill captains, so their knowledge of spirit-science-stuff clearly much, much better than he was implying.

[HandofShadows]

my counter point was that they made things like the sanrei glove which could kill captains, so their knowledge of spirit-science-stuff clearly much, much better than he was implying.

Which gets us to the point where the Quincy should know the Soul Reapers are telling the truth and that killing souls could well destroy the entire world.

So either the Quincys didn't want to face the the truth about what they where doing. They didn't care they they could destroy the world and/or thought that the Soul Reapers should clean up the Quincy's mess and keep the balance no matter what. Or lastly, where the Quincy *intentional* trying to destroy the world? (at the current time it certianly seems like they are trying to destroy the world)

[thubby]

the only way i could see the original quincies (the ones from 200 years ago, obviously) position as not evil is if SS weren't very good at its job and the quincy were merely intervening to protect their communities like ishida did way back at the start of the series.

after all, it would be crazy to expect anyone to sit and watch as their friends and neighbors are literally eaten alive when they could stop it.

if that's what kubo is trying to portray, and i admit that would be a cool story, he's failed miserably.

[MammonAzrael]

It's also possible that they simply had no way of determining the veracity of SS's "soul balance" claim.

Regardless of how much scientific and technical ability the old Quincies had, who says they can study the effect from Earth? Apart from the current Vandenreich, do we know of any instances where the Quinces were able to travel to SS or Hueco Mundo without help from a shinigami? It's completely reasonable that without access to all the planes research on soul balance is impossible.

As an additional potential argument against "soul balance," what about Hell? Aren't souls that get sent there intended to remain there forever? How does that not affect the balance of souls?

[jindra34]

As an additional potential argument against "soul balance," what about Hell? Aren't souls that get sent there intended to remain there forever? How does that not affect the balance of souls?

Definitely agree with you there. Between Hollows and Hell there are too many gaps in the whole soul balance story for it not to smell fishy. And we probably have more info than the Quincy did in the past.

[Drolyt]

Definitely agree with you there. Between Hollows and Hell there are too many gaps in the whole soul balance story for it not to smell fishy. And we probably have more info than the Quincy did in the past.

Yes, but it is altogether unclear whether that is intended or simply bad writing.

[Fjolnir]

Yes, but it is altogether unclear whether that is intended or simply bad writing.

Can't it be both?

[VanBuren]

Maybe it's a matter of frequency? Perhaps the universe can self-correct if the number of souls being removed from the cycle is relatively low over a given period of time, it's just that the Quincy were obliterating souls faster than the natural replenishing of the universe could make up the difference? That also might be why they're OK with Ishida, because one Quincy can't really tip the scale overly much.

[MammonAzrael]

Maybe it's a matter of frequency? Perhaps the universe can self-correct if the number of souls being removed from the cycle is relatively low over a given period of time, it's just that the Quincy were obliterating souls faster than the natural replenishing of the universe could make up the difference? That also might be why they're OK with Ishida, because one Quincy can't really tip the scale overly much.

Also possible. Of course, we really have no idea what qualifies one for Hell, or how many souls get stuck in Hollow form that just wander around Hueco Mundo, never interacting with the material world, or any other number of things. It's all rather a mess, and that is primarily due to a lack of information (and likely poor planning/writing ).

[Anteros]

Well the problem with the soul balance is that the souls don't pass over, they stay in the human world. Presumably the souls that go to hell don't do so. They'd probably either be included in the soul society numbers or removed from the equation entirely.

Also, there's a quite strong possibility that Hell in Bleach is not eternal.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New Chapter

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The logical extension of the Quincies' basic ability appears. Kills anything with reiatsu? That's every character ever. Of course, Ichigo's willpower should be enough to defeat it

[thubby]

New Chapter

Spoiler

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The logical extension of the Quincies' basic ability appears. Kills anything with reiatsu? That's every character ever. Of course, Ichigo's willpower should be enough to defeat it

this is a potentially clever gotcha moment. ichigo's bankai's mode of action is compressing his reiatsu. essentially the exact opposite of what this baddy is trying to do.

in practice, i pretty much guarantee it's not going to come up for the captains, making it a useless useful power

[HandofShadows]

this is a potentially clever gotcha moment. ichigo's bankai's mode of action is compressing his reiatsu. essentially the exact opposite of what this baddy is trying to do.

That is a very good observation. Since Ichigo compresses his power it probably means the new Quincy trick will have a great deal of trouble leatching his power away, if it could be done at all. And when Ichigo gets Hollowfied he is actively absorbing energy from his suroundings (he seems to absorb energy passsively at all times) and that would give even less power for the Quincies to work with.

This brings up something though. Might a big weakness of the Quincy be that in the real world they have much less power to work with? And that is why they lost to the SS 200 years ago?